Why do women have to wear Burkas?

farrahk52

[But xtian and jewish woman also do not believe in the final prophet Muhammad, so that the issue is still there. It might be the case that in Islam, women are considered subserviant to men, but, at least coming from a xtian background, I can tell you thats not the case with healthy xtian marriages. Most xtian men will make a major household decision without consulting the wife (and vice-versa) head of the household or not

.
Actually in all 3 religions, GOOD practising women are supposed to 'obey' their husbands. Women did not even have a SOUL in 16th centrury xtianity, neither could they vote and on top of that they were blamed for the concept of the original sin (made Adam eat the apple).

What makes you think you need to be in complete obedience of someone to work with them? You can discuss things and talk things through and come to agreements and have both parties feel a lot more respected for it.

I gave you an example of how 2 people need to be to fly a plane, it was merely an example. Pls read it again. What if the two people flying the plane DISCUSS the options but STILL decide to go in opposite directions?

The term "head of the household" does not exist anymore in this day and age. These days, since knowing full well that men and women are fully equal entities, and fully capable of performing each others traditional duties (biology permitting).

I think you need to read the stats on equality. Women still get paid lower salaries in the west compared to their male counterparts. They are still underrepresented in high flying careers(perhaps due to work/home pressures, child bearing and rearing etc, nevertheless the inequality still exists.

I didn't say you should let people experience killing or drugtaking etc to control theose desires, I said you have to let people experience those desires in order to learn to control them. You learn how to balance on a bike by actuallytrying to ride the bike, not by having the bike hidden away because of the "evils of falling". Problem is that for a lot of people, what they want to do is determined by what they percieve they can do. If they think they cant do it anyway, they will not make an informed decision on whether they actually desire it, and then they wont make an informed decision on whether they are actually going to go for it

I think we experience too many desires, thats why we have roaring std rates, drug problems, broken homes, teenage pregnancies, alcohol abuse, substance abuse, paedophilia, binge drinking, crime as a result of some of these where does one draw the line?

There are "shades" of good, and good can be greatly influenced by context, opportunity and capability. But what is good can be discussed and decided upon, people, if brought up correctly, can at least aim to do the things they know are good and figure out the best thing to do in a bad situation.

Most people were against the iraq war in this country and in the USA, but our leaders saw it fit to ignore us and go ahead and bomb a country to oblivion forhaving weapons of mass destruction (which werent found by the way but millions of barrels of oil went missing instead) , is this good and for whom? certainly not for the iraqis. All sorts of resolutions, geneva conventions etc are broken by certain leaders who we elect in the name of democracy and freedom, one mans freedom is another mans prison so whats good for one man isnt for another. Yes, it can be discussed till the cows come home but is it going to make a difference or not, who decides the state or the people 'really' and who will it benefit?

Thats nice, so, hypothetically, by the fluke of where you are born, you could grow up a saint, helping everyone everywhere you go, doing no harm to anyone and simply by your own example encouraging others to be good, but since you never encountered the religion of Islam in your travels, you go to hell anyway. Of course the hypothetical corollary is that in heaven there is a hate-filled, bigotted, murderer who got there simply because he believed that his belief in Islam justified his/her hate, bigotry and crimes. I know where I would rather be.

Just because you are born somewhere it doesnt mean you should not read upon other religions, i know alot about xtianity ( i have read the bible a few times and even talked to a couple of pastors who could not answer my questions). Ignorance is not bliss in islam. I too didnt understand why this was the case, in my jahiilyah (wild) days i knew a practising muslim so i went up to him and asked him and he said something that worked (for me anyway). He said imagine your a parent and you bring up children, feed, clothe and look after them and they disown you and dont even acknowledge you in the least yet they acknowledge their freinds and help them. Would this be fair? Ofcourse not. In the end FAITH is a big part of religion and a test wouldnt be complete without it.

Its a western paper, why would it do a supplement on non-western countries? Pointing out the problems of other countries does nothing to solve your own.

Exactly and pointing out the problems of a minority group doesnt either, esp when you have many problems of your own.

rocksteady

farrahk52 wrote: »

.
Actually in all 3 religions, GOOD practising women are supposed to 'obey' their husbands. Women did not even have a SOUL in 16th centrury xtianity, neither could they vote and on top of that they were blamed for the concept of the original sin (made Adam eat the apple).

What women could and couldn't do in xtianity in the past was decided by the bigotted sexist men who ran the religion. Xtianities morals stem from the 10 commandments, and none of those say "Obey your husband".

farrahk52 wrote: »

I gave you an example of how 2 people need to be to fly a plane, it was merely an example. Pls read it again. What if the two people flying the plane DISCUSS the options but STILL decide to go in opposite directions?

The whole point of a discussion is that both parties come to an agreement about what course to take.

farrahk52 wrote: »

I think you need to read the stats on equality. Women still get paid lower salaries in the west compared to their male counterparts. They are still underrepresented in high flying careers(perhaps due to work/home pressures, child bearing and rearing etc, nevertheless the inequality still exists.

And? Because equality still exists, you should embrace it?

farrahk52 wrote: »

I think we experience too many desires, thats why we have roaring std rates, drug problems, broken homes, teenage pregnancies, alcohol abuse, substance abuse, paedophilia, binge drinking, crime as a result of some of these where does one draw the line?

Binge drinking, alcohol abuse, substance abuse and drug problems are all the same desire, and generally lead into the problem of broken homes. Unplanned pregnancies and stds are also essentially caused by the same desire too. People on a personal level should be allowed to dictate what desires they come into contact with, thats generally how you live your own life. Other people doing this for you prevents you from actually living your life the way it was supposed to be lived. There may be times when choices need to be made for you because you aren't capable of making informed decisions yourself (eg as a child) but without being let make your own choices by yourself, you are not being true to your nature. And if, as you said, you're more likely to get into heaven if you believe than if you are good, then you are surely more likely to get into heaven if your believe is actually based on your own choice than if you have forced or restricted into it.

farrahk52 wrote: »

Most people were against the iraq war in this country and in the USA, but our leaders saw it fit to ignore us and go ahead and bomb a country to oblivion forhaving weapons of mass destruction (which werent found by the way but millions of barrels of oil went missing instead) , is this good and for whom? certainly not for the iraqis. All sorts of resolutions, geneva conventions etc are broken by certain leaders who we elect in the name of democracy and freedom, one mans freedom is another mans prison so whats good for one man isnt for another. Yes, it can be discussed till the cows come home but is it going to make a difference or not, who decides the state or the people 'really' and who will it benefit?

I don't quite your point here. What you have referenced are examples of people of doing wrong. These people deny wrong doing and for the moment seem to have gotten away with it, but that still doesn't excuse what they did, and it doesn't point to people being unable to decide whats right and wrong for themselves.

farrahk52 wrote: »

Just because you are born somewhere it doesnt mean you should not read upon other religions, i know alot about xtianity ( i have read the bible a few times and even talked to a couple of pastors who could not answer my questions). Ignorance is not bliss in islam. I too didnt understand why this was the case, in my jahiilyah (wild) days i knew a practising muslim so i went up to him and asked him and he said something that worked (for me anyway). He said imagine your a parent and you bring up children, feed, clothe and look after them and they disown you and dont even acknowledge you in the least yet they acknowledge their freinds and help them. Would this be fair? Ofcourse not. In the end FAITH is a big part of religion and a test wouldnt be complete without it.

I was kinda thinking along the line of Buddha, who died before Islam even existed. Imagine you where a parent and you bring up your children, feed them and clothe them and then they go out and beat up and terrorise the neighbourhood kids who wont admit that you are the best parent on the street, that in fact no other parent exists.

farrahk52 wrote: »

Exactly and pointing out the problems of a minority group doesnt either, esp when you have many problems of your own.

You could do with following your own advise.

farrahk52

OK i dont have that much time to reply so will just answer in short.

What women could and couldn't do in xtianity in the past was decided by the bigotted sexist men who ran the religion. Xtianities morals stem from the 10 commandments, and none of those say "Obey your husband".

The following is from bible.org http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=1282

The primary responsibility of the husband in a Christian home is to love his wife. This is mentioned a number of times in the Bible. In one passage of Scripture, however, wives are commanded to love their husbands.88 While this one reference indicates that they are expected to help create an atmosphere of love in the home, their primary responsibility is introduced in the next verse, where they are exhorted to be obedient to their own husbands.89 Obedience involves subjection and subordination. The word is used of the wife’s responsibility to her husband no less than six times in the New Testament.90

We have discussed the subject of headship and God’s order of authority in the home previously, but now we want to apply it specifically to the wife, for submission is her principal obligation. “You wives must submit to your husbands’ leadership in the same way you submit to the Lord.”91 Ladies, submission to your husband is really submission to the Lord, because the Lord commands you to do it! If you cannot find it in you to submit to your husband for his sake, do it for the Lord’s sake. The Lord loves you with a perfect love. Respond to His love with subjection to your husband.
“You wives must willingly obey your husbands in everything, just as the church obeys Christ.”92
It carris on but i didnt want to paste the whole thing, feel free to read it all.

refs :-
88 Titus 2:4.
89 Titus 2:5, KJV.
90 Ephesians 5:22, 24; Colossians 3:18, Titus 2:5, 1 Peter 3:1, 5.

The whole point of a discussion is that both parties come to an agreement about what course to take.

NOT everyone comes to the same agreement!.

Binge drinking, alcohol abuse, substance abuse and drug problems are all the same desire, and generally lead into the problem of broken homes. Unplanned pregnancies and stds are also essentially caused by the same desire too. People on a personal level should be allowed to dictate what desires they come into contact with, thats generally how you live your own life. Other people doing this for you prevents you from actually living your life the way it was supposed to be lived. There may be times when choices need to be made for you because you aren't capable of making informed decisions yourself (eg as a child) but without being let make your own choices by yourself, you are not being true to your nature. And if, as you said, you're more likely to get into heaven if you believe than if you are good, then you are surely more likely to get into heaven if your believe is actually based on your own choice than if you have forced or restricted into it.

People are living the life they want to, whatever the consequences, and its not just children who need guidance - we have ADULT PRISONS too, infact we dont have enough prisons and last i heard we were building prisons on ships and letting prisoners go free because we just cant keep up with the demand. We also spend many millions on rehab centres, AA /gambling, drug clinics etc for ADULTS so clearly adults are also making costly 'incorrect/wrong' decisions. i have covered your last point before (about intentions and rewards) but wanted to emphasise islam does not only look at you, its not always about me me me, every individual makes up a family unit, every family makes a community and every community makes up society. In a society you have to abide by certain rules to get along (ie laws), if people did what they wanted to all the time society would be in cayyoss.

I don't quite your point here. What you have referenced are examples of people of doing wrong. These people deny wrong doing and for the moment seem to have gotten away with it, but that still doesn't excuse what they did, and it doesn't point to people being unable to decide whats right and wrong for themselves.

Im glad you think these people do wrong, because believe it or not some people incl. politicians think they are right.

I was kinda thinking along the line of Buddha, who died before Islam even existed. Imagine you where a parent and you bring up your children, feed them and clothe them and then they go out and beat up and terrorise the neighbourhood kids who wont admit that you are the best parent on the street, that in fact no other parent exists.

Actually islam existed when Adam (pbuh the first prophet and man) was born. It was only completed through the last prophet pbuh. Terrorising the neighbours kids is wrong i agree (whos terrorising?) but discussing it isnt. Theres no compulsion in religion so one cannot force anyone to believe....

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Taghut (false dieties) and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trust worthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. " (Qur'an 2:256)

I didnt understand your last point, muslims are a minority compared to the non muslims in this country.

Jannah

farrahk52 wrote: »

The following is from bible.org http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=1282

The primary responsibility of the husband in a Christian home is to love his wife. This is mentioned a number of times in the Bible. In one passage of Scripture, however, wives are commanded to love their husbands.88 While this one reference indicates that they are expected to help create an atmosphere of love in the home, their primary responsibility is introduced in the next verse, where they are exhorted to be obedient to their own husbands.89 Obedience involves subjection and subordination. The word is used of the wife’s responsibility to her husband no less than six times in the New Testament.90

We have discussed the subject of headship and God’s order of authority in the home previously, but now we want to apply it specifically to the wife, for submission is her principal obligation. “You wives must submit to your husbands’ leadership in the same way you submit to the Lord.”91 Ladies, submission to your husband is really submission to the Lord, because the Lord commands you to do it! If you cannot find it in you to submit to your husband for his sake, do it for the Lord’s sake. The Lord loves you with a perfect love. Respond to His love with subjection to your husband.
“You wives must willingly obey your husbands in everything, just as the church obeys Christ.”92
It carris on but i didnt want to paste the whole thing, feel free to read it all.

refs :-
88 Titus 2:4.
89 Titus 2:5, KJV.
90 Ephesians 5:22, 24; Colossians 3:18, Titus 2:5, 1 Peter 3:1, 5.


NOT everyone comes to the same agreement!.


People are living the life they want to, whatever the consequences, and its not just children who need guidance - we have ADULT PRISONS too, infact we dont have enough prisons and last i heard we were building prisons on ships and letting prisoners go free because we just cant keep up with the demand. We also spend many millions on rehab centres, AA /gambling, drug clinics etc for ADULTS so clearly adults are also making costly 'incorrect/wrong' decisions. i have covered your last point before (about intentions and rewards) but wanted to emphasise islam does not only look at you, its not always about me me me, every individual makes up a family unit, every family makes a community and every community makes up society. In a society you have to abide by certain rules to get along (ie laws), if people did what they wanted to all the time society would be in cayyoss.

Actually islam existed when Adam (pbuh the first prophet and man) was born. It was only completed through the last prophet pbuh. Terrorising the neighbours kids is wrong i agree (whos terrorising?) but discussing it isnt. Theres no compulsion in religion so one cannot force anyone to believe....

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Taghut (false dieties) and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trust worthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. " (Qur'an 2:256)

I didnt understand your last point, muslims are a minority compared to the non muslims in this country.

I'm sorry Farrah, but that has to be the biggest load of tripe I've ever in my life read. Any woman with half a brain in her head will want to be valued as equally as her husband- and that means not being subservient to him in any shape or form. He is a man, a human being, and as is she- therefore there is absolutely no sense in elevating him to a position he does not deserve. A partnership is equality in every sense of the word and your backwardness is simply a slap in the face to all the feminists who have worked so hard to gain equal rights for women. It's people like you who make others believe that Muslim women are oppressed and while you do have the obvious right to live as you wish (in this country) I think it is ridiculous thinking and completely outdated.

As for the rest of the post, you only seem to concentrated on extreme situations, completely unfounded 'facts' and scare tactics to get your point across that apparently every evil in this world is caused by people not being Muslim, which, once again, is complete nonsense

farrahk52

Jannah wrote: »

I'm sorry Farrah, but that has to be the biggest load of tripe I've ever in my life read. Any woman with half a brain in her head will want to be valued as equally as her husband- and that means not being subservient to him in any shape or form. He is a man, a human being, and as is she- therefore there is absolutely no sense in elevating him to a position he does not deserve. A partnership is equality in every sense of the word and your backwardness is simply a slap in the face to all the feminists who have worked so hard to gain equal rights for women. It's people like you who make others believe that Muslim women are oppressed and while you do have the obvious right to live as you wish (in this country) I think it is ridiculous thinking and completely outdated.

As for the rest of the post, you only seem to concentrated on extreme situations, completely unfounded 'facts' and scare tactics to get your point across that apparently every evil in this world is caused by people not being Muslim, which, once again, is complete nonsense

Firstly, yes a woman is a human being and so is a man, but is the man the SAME as the woman?.

No, she can have children, she spends 9 months carrying a child in her stomach, she has the monthly cycle which can be painful not to mention the mood swings, can get pregnant and have children and rear them by breastfeeding, she can be said to be MORE emotional (most women will tell you that they are more romantic and emotional than their husbands and most men will agree).

The man doesnt have a monthly cycle, doesnt get pregnant, cannot breastfeed, is less emotional and is GENERALLY more stronger...now before you all throw the dummy out the pram i have to say this is the case with the MAJORITY of the human race, ofcourse you get the odd woman who is a body builder and may get a man who looks after the children from birth but as in most things there will be minor exceptions.

The mans role is islam is to be a shephard, to guard and protect his flock because he is stronger and Allah swt has made him stronger, he also doesnt need to have months of work for being pregnant or rearing / weaning a child for 2 years etc so can still provide for the family. In all 3 religions he is the maintainer and by nature that is so.

Women can work but the man is entrusted with more responsibility. As a muslim and a 'good' christian / jew, we are given responsibilities and on yawm'ul qiyama (day of resurrection) the man will have to answer for it. Similiarly Allah swt has made an employer higher in degree to the employee so the latter is under his command and does the work for him and gets paid, its like the chain of command that is neccassary for life and the world to go round....

"He it is who hath placed you as viceroys of the earth and hath exalted some of you in rank above others, that He may try you by (the test of) that which He hath given you.."(6 : 165)

"And Allah hath favoured some of you above others in provision…"(16 : 71)

"We have apportioned among them their livelihood in the life of the world, and raised some of them above others in rank that some of them may take labour from others" (43 : 32)

Ofcousre the employer will also be questioned on yawm'ul qiyama. Anyone who has authority will be questioned and life will be full of responsibility at different levels, its not just about 'im a man and your a woman so your below me', as it was said in the bible as such, rest assured man will be questioned just as an employer will be or anyone else in any sort of authority, like a teacher / doctor. All praise is due to Allah who has planned everything accordingly and not left anything out of the book.

The status of women especially the mother is 3 times better than the status of the father in islam, infact paradise lies at the feet of the mother, so one should try to please their parents esp the mother after Allah swt.

The Prophet (pbuh) said "The most perfect of believers in faith is the best of them in morals and the best of you are those who are kindest to your wives."

In his famous Address at the Farewell Pilgrimage, the Prophet again laid stress on the good treatment on womenfolk. He said: "O my people, you have certain rights over your wives and so have your wives over you .... they are Allah's trust in your hand. See that you treat them with all kindness".

It is reported that when the Prophet was questioned by a disciple as to who after God and his Prophet should be revered most, the Prophet said "Your mother" When questioned "Who, after the mother?" The Prophet said "Your mother" He was again asked "And, then, who after the mother? " He again replied: "Your mother". The man put the question for the fourth time and the Prophet then answered: "Your father" This Tradition shows that the position of the mother in the eyes of her sons and daughters should be three times higher than that of the father.

It is reported that once a disciple came to the Prophet and said "O Prophet Of Allah, on a hot day in the desert of Arabia, in the sunny noon when the stones and sands were burning like fire, my mother and I were travelling by foot without any shoes. I carried my mother on my shoulders so that she may not suffer the pain of walking bare-footed on the hot sands and stones. Could I pay the reward of the pains she had to bear in bringing me up?" The Prophet replied:"No, not even a fraction of the pain she suffered at the time you were born".

Once Halimah, the lady who nursed him in his childhood came to see him. The Prophet was sitting with his disciples. As soon as he saw her, he stood up with reverence and spread his mantle on the floor and requested his foster-mother to take her seat there.

I have read a few feminist books and realised feminism is a load of cack, i say that because it ONLY cares about what women want, not men, or children , we have men, women and children in society, we are supposed to live together in harmony. Infact I saw a documentary once where they were saying that feminism is actualluy more DANGEROUS and backward for women because it implies that women are SUPERHUMAN, apparently we dont need men for anything because we are self sufficient!. We are expected to be career driven, come home, cook, clean, be a nurse, a chauffeur, theyre expected to be there emotionally and physically for their children, be pregnant for 9 months, give birth and be back at work without having time to bond (sometimes) with their own babies, i wonder why some women have post natal depression - theyre prob driven to it by the demands society has on them!. Sure, men are suppose to help and in islam its part of the sunnah (the prophet did housework and mended his own clothes and prepared food too) but it rarely happens. I think feminism in this case is more favourable for men and perhaps the govt (by making women work twice as hard so they can earn more tax!).

Women are not robots, we're not superhuman. We all want to eat nice food and have a lovely cosey clean home, esp after a hard days work. I'm a career woman and i know how hard it is. Could i do it forever, no way, i'd like a man to try for a couple of weeks, maybe you could if you have any kids, just take the mrs role over for a few weeks and then let us know what its like, obviously you cant go through the emotional trauma of having a baby though!

BTW, im not scare mongering at all, the stats speak for themselves, e have problems in the UK (believe it or not and we spend millions on them). I for one would prefer it if we dealt with the problems head on and not wait for them to get worse. Oh and i never said that all the problems are caused by people not being muslim, i was merely saying that we have problems of our own in the UK and perhaps the times could focus on these (as we're wasting millions of pounds of tax payers money on the social ills we are creating ourselves) than how British muslim children should be brought up. Having said that, alot of the problems we have today could be eliminated if they were or if people tackled them properly (by looking at the root causes), it seems like we all need some sort of guidance (or contentment) in our lives - even us ADULTS, how can we guide our children if we cant guide ourselves?

Jannah

farrahk52 wrote: »

Firstly, yes a woman is a human being and so is a man, but is the man the SAME as the woman?.

No, she can have children, she spends 9 months carrying a child in her stomach, she has the monthly cycle which can be painful not to mention the mood swings, can get pregnant and have children and rear them by breastfeeding, she can be said to be MORE emotional [/quote]
Firstly, I am well aware of the physical status of women, so it is quite unnecessary for you to tell me this like it's some kind of revelation. Now I would like to enlighten you with the fact that just because SOME women (not all) get hormonal mood swings, men do too- http://www.askmen.com/money/body_and_mind/41_better_living.html and this does not hinder either sex in their ablility to be of equal status to eachother. To say that because women have (slight) mood changes and therefore cannot make decisions etc without a male is beyond comprehension- completely stone age.

BTW? Strength?? What has physical strength have to do with any of this?? Ooooh, just in case I need a big strong man to rescue me in my damsel in distress state, right? :rolleyes:

farrahk52 wrote: »

The mans role is islam is to be a shephard, to guard and protect his flock because he is stronger and Allah swt has made him stronger, he also doesnt need to have months of work for being pregnant or rearing / weaning a child for 2 years etc so can still provide for the family. In all 3 religions he is the maintainer and by nature that is so.

Ah I see- so a woman can be president, but she can't be the protector of her own family? :rolleyes: Many women choose not to breastfeed kids and go on to have successful careers and provide for themselves- if they so wish. Personally I would feel completely inadequate as a person if I didn't have the opportunity to have a career outside of childcare. We have evolved well past the hunter gatherer scenario and in my family my mother earns a lot more than my father. By putting men as always being the providers and leaders you are oppressing the potential of the woman

farrahk52 wrote: »

but the man is entrusted with more responsibility.

Why???? Women are EXACTLY as capable as men, if not in some cases MORE SO. Having a penis does not make his brains any bigger- despite what they may tell you! As for Islam's belief that women should be favoured more by their children etc, this is also wrong- men and women should partake in childcare as equally as possible (obviously guys won't be breastfeeding!) and NEITHER should be put before the other. This is a TEAM- not a hierarchal system like an employer/employee situation (and btw, making that comparrison is unbeliebably condescending for women- they are not obliged to be subservient to their husband's every whim and if they were EQUAL you would have described them as co-workers, which is what they are)

farrahk52 wrote: »

Infact I saw a documentary once where they were saying that feminism is actualluy more DANGEROUS and backward for women because it implies that women are SUPERHUMAN, apparently we dont need men for anything because we are self sufficient!. We are expected to be career driven, come home, cook, clean, be a nurse, a chauffeur, theyre expected to be there emotionally and physically for their children, be pregnant for 9 months, give birth and be back at work without having time to bond (sometimes) with their own babies, i wonder why some women have post natal depression - theyre prob driven to it by the demands society has on them!

I can't believe you just said that. Post natal depression isn't what society does to a woman, it is the hormonal imbalance caused by having a baby- it is a mental disease and trust me, I'm sure that as many muslim women as any other woman suffers from it. So lets put THAT myth to rest.
Secondly, feminism doesn't demand anything of a woman- it simply gives her the opportunity to be whatever she wants to be without the constraints of 'needing' men.
And in theory, no- we don't need men in our lives if we chose not to have children. We need them biologically, but they are unnecessary for decision making etc- WE have a brain too, you know!

farrahk52 wrote: »

I think feminism in this case is more favourable for men and perhaps the govt (by making women work twice as hard so they can earn more tax!)..

HAAA! That's so incredibly wrong!! If that was the case there would be millions of male feminists marching around!! I don't know how on earth feminism benefits men MORE than women! As for the government- the Irish constitution put a woman's place as in the home, therefore it is obvious where they stand on this issue. If a woman CHOOSES to work, it is merely a perk for them that they would have a larger workforce. Nobody's dragged them in there- many women want to have careers, believe it or not

farrahk52 wrote: »

Women are not robots, we're not superhuman.

Yes- and neither are men

farrahk52 wrote: »

We all want to eat nice food and have a lovely cosey clean home, esp after a hard days work.

Speak for yourself!!!! A lot of women have much more ambition than this!!!

farrahk52

Firstly, I am well aware of the physical status of women, so it is quite unnecessary for you to tell me this like it's some kind of revelation. Now I would like to enlighten you with the fact that just because SOME women (not all) get hormonal mood swings, men do too- http://www.askmen.com/money/body_and_mind/41_better_living.html and this does not hinder either sex in their ablility to be of equal status to eachother. To say that because women have (slight) mood changes and therefore cannot make decisions etc without a male is beyond comprehension- completely stone age.

Is that why men always make fun of 'that time of the month' when women have mood swings? as far as i know men dont have a time of the month, or do they? women can actually end up very emotional and even cry (and shout) for no obvious reason. I checked out the link and it also said ...

Then why do women get the bad rap? That's because a woman's hormonal imbalance during PMS and menopause is much more acute than a man's. Huge drops and elevations of estrogen and other chemicals in a woman's body create great emotional imbalances as well. And these can last for days or even weeks. However, a man's mood swings are a little less dramatic and usually last only a few hours or a day, depending on how much testosterone has decreased.

So women have it much worse.

BTW? Strength?? What has physical strength have to do with any of this?? Ooooh, just in case I need a big strong man to rescue me in my damsel in distress state, right? :rolleyes:

Strength helps when doing hard labour like building / construction work, building roads, fire fighting etc theres a reason why women dont usually go for those sorts of jobs. Men are generally stronger therefore cabn physically protect women than the other way round. BTW, as far as i and many other women go, ofcourse we want to be protected, its a lovely feeling.

Ah I see- so a woman can be president, but she can't be the protector of her own family? :rolleyes: Many women choose not to breastfeed kids and go on to have successful careers and provide for themselves- if they so wish. Personally I would feel completely inadequate as a person if I didn't have the opportunity to have a career outside of childcare. We have evolved well past the hunter gatherer scenario and in my family my mother earns a lot more than my father. By putting men as always being the providers and leaders you are oppressing the potential of the woman.
Why???? Women are EXACTLY as capable as men, if not in some cases MORE SO. Having a penis does not make his brains any bigger- despite what they may tell you! As for Islam's belief that women should be favoured more by their children etc, this is also wrong- men and women should partake in childcare as equally as possible (obviously guys won't be breastfeeding!) and NEITHER should be put before the other. This is a TEAM- not a hierarchal system like an employer/employee situation (and btw, making that comparrison is unbeliebably condescending for women- they are not obliged to be subservient to their husband's every whim and if they were EQUAL you would have described them as co-workers, which is what they are)

I'm saying that women shouldnt feel pressured into being career driven while raising kids and cleaning and cooking. Unfortunately most men dont cook or clean even though were not living in the dark ages. EVEN wait for it, western men. I think women deserve more of a right what with having to carry a baby for 9 months, feeling bloated and then weaning them. I agree men should do more but usually they are tired after a hard grind at work and sit there watching footy or playing snooker or video games..or make plenty of excuses, happens all the time and the women end up doing MOST of it.

feminism doesn't demand anything of a woman- it simply gives her the opportunity to be whatever she wants to be without the constraints of 'needing' men.

I dont need other women telling me how to live my life, just as much i dont think they'll be pleased with me telling them how they should live theirs.

And in theory, no- we don't need men in our lives if we chose not to have children. We need them biologically, but they are unnecessary for decision making etc- WE have a brain too, you know!

Yes we have a brain, but two brains are better than one (sometimes) and 4 hands are better than two. And having children is a natural instinct so MOST women will and do need men.

HAAA! That's so incredibly wrong!! If that was the case there would be millions of male feminists marching around!! I don't know how on earth feminism benefits men MORE than women! As for the government- the Irish constitution put a woman's place as in the home, therefore it is obvious where they stand on this issue. If a woman CHOOSES to work, it is merely a perk for them that they would have a larger workforce. Nobody's dragged them in there- many women want to have careers, believe it or not

I told you how it benefits men, by making women bring half the bacon home so to speak and if they can cook and clean thats the icing on the cake right?. Good job the irish govt. got something right thinking of good ole stable family unit, I'm from England by the way its a bit difft here. BTW Larger workforce = more taxes for them and less benefits to dish out. Many women want careers, children and family life, ofcourse we would want it all, who wouldnt? BUT at what cost? being stressed all the time, not being able to have a comfortable lifestyle, running around like a headless chicken, no thanks. I havnt met ANY women who only want careers only.

Speak for yourself!!!! A lot of women have much more ambition than this!!!

I'm not so sure they did a poll recently on what women wanted to be and MOST (not all) of them said WAGS (footballers wives), pop stars and to be married to rich men, i personally wouldnt mind a life of lesiure myself. Ofcourse this poll was done in the UK im sure if it was done in the UAE we would expect women to say doctors, lawyers, engineers. The grass is always greener, still its good to have an option. I am one of the above and i relished the opportunity to become what i am today, its just that my priorities have changed and done a 360 degrees since learning about islam - namely due to the fact that life is very short, death is the only gaurantee in life, everything i have ever strived for will be over one day sooner or later, but the hereafter is forever!. What is the purpose of life? Whats the point of having SO MUCH ambition in something which can end ANYTIME soon?

The mutual rivalry for piling up (the good things of this world) diverts you (from the more serious things),
Until ye visit the graves.
Nay, in time you will come to understand!
And once again: Nay, in time you will come to understand!
Nay, if you could but understand [it] with an understanding [born] of certainty
you would indeed, most surely, behold the blazing fire!
In the end you will indeed, most surely, behold it with the eye of certainty
And on that Day you will most surely be called to account for [what you did with] the boon of life! [102:1-8 Surah Takathur/ competition]

whe i said that everyone wants a nice spotless home to live in, great cooked food, great career, spouse, relationships and children and sometimes (or alot of the time) i meant that something has to give and i personally believe if you bring children into the world they should be your no.1 priority. I feel like i cant achieve all these things and be a career woman (without having maids or nannies or cleaners) as its too tiring and i end up being stressed, ive spoken to alot of women about this and most of them feel the same, some of them just carry on under the immense pressure because they have no choice.

Im not forcing anyones opinion to change, we all have difft outlooks on life, we should agree to disagree, esp find it patronising when a man tells me how women should feel. No-one should force someone elses opinion as we all have the right to do whats right for us aslong as its not harming anyone else, if i choose to wear a burka its not anyone elses business, i shouldnt even have to explain myself lol, is there a forum asking why nuns wear the habit?, somethings just dawned on me, is it fair we're being asked this question and not nuns,why am i even on this site, how many times do i have to repeat myself?, will some people ever listen?

We were created in Paradise, we came out of it and we will inshaAllah go back to it. But we have to do what Allah has asked us to do, for Paradise is not cheap. The price is true eman that is shown in obedience to Allah according to the sunnah of his Prophet, sallallahu alayhe wa sallam. The companions understood that. Their efforts were all for the life of the Hereafter and they gave only what was necessary to this worldly life. As Muslims, everything we do, can be, and should be worship of Allah. Whether we're working at the office to provide for our families; cooking a meal; raising our children, or simply resting, through remembrance of Allah and supplication, we can transform these earthly necessities into fruits that will bear for us in the life of the Hereafter.

So let us keep our eyes on the prize, and strive hard for it, for Allah says, "And (as for) those who strive hard for Us, We will most certainly guide them in Our ways; and Allah is most surely with the doers of good." [29:69]

Finally when i first discovered islam i think i was alittle too extreme in my thinking, maybe i watched too many jerry springer shows and perhaps did not hang out with many 'decent' westerners (apart from at uni) and on top of that saw how people mocked women who covered and were obsessed by fake things like fashion which they judge people on, how materialistic and fake (and empty) they were and this repulsed me. Maybe it was the shock of finding a new way of life that was alien to me which i had been searching for. Anyway i have learnt that not every westerner sleeps around, binge drinks and does ontoward things for the derogation of society so would like to apologise to those people who were offended by my ignorant remarks. May Allah swt forgive all of us for our shortcomings. Since then I have done lots of dhikr (remembrance of Allah, asking for forgiveness and made plenty of dua's) and this i feel has made me closer to Him and the deen.

"Those who believe (in the Oneness of Allâh), and whose hearts find rest in the remembrance of Allâh, Verily, in the remembrance of Allâh do hearts find rest" (Surah ar'Ra'd 13:28)

"Remember Me, I shall remember you." (Qur'an 2:152)

It is very important for Muslims to perform dhikr, or remembrance, of Allah (swt). The purpose of dhikr is to purify our hearts and souls and uplift our spirits. All words of praise and glory to Allah (swt), whether spoken out loud, or silently in one's heart, are known as dhikr. When people do dhikr, their hearts turn to the highest ideals and are free from the temptations of sin. Obviously this will work only if the words come from the heart and not just from the tongue.

The prophet saw said "The contrast between a person who glorifies Allah and one who does not remember Him is like that between the living and the dead." One who does not remember Allah, although he may be alive physically, spiritually he is dead".

A man once told al-Hassan, "O Abu Sa'id, I complain to you about the hardness of my heart." He said, "Soften it with the remembrance of Allah." Makhul said, "Remembrance of Allah is (a sign of) health, while remembrance of people is like a disease." A man once asked Salman, "Which deeds are the best?" He said, "Haven't you read in the Qur'an:
"And the remembrance of Allah is greatest" (29:45)

Abdullah ibn Busr related that a man once told the Prophet (saw), "The roads to good are many and I am unable to take all of them, so please tell me something to which I can hold fast, but do not overburden me lest I forget it." He said, "Make sure that your tongue is moist and supple with the remembrance of Allah, the Exalted."

"O mankind, there has come to you a protection from your Lord and a healing for what is in your hearts, and for those who believe, a guidance and a mercy." (10:57)

"We send down in the Qur'an that which is a healing and a mercy for those who believe." (17:82)

I dont want to spend anymore time on here would rather join some islamic forums as i want to talk about other things than women all the time and try and perfect my deen (religion) as ultimately this is what is going to be of benefit to me. Never would I have found enlightenment had it not been for the mercy of Allah. Truly, Allah guides whom he wills to a straight path. I shall end with the greeting of paradise - Aslamu'alaikum (peace be upon you all) and my fave verse from the quran...

43. And We shall remove from their hearts any lurking sense of injury; beneath them will be rivers flowing; and they shall say: "Praise be to Allah Who hath guided us to this (felicity): never could we have found guidance had it not been for the guidance of Allah: indeed it was the truth that the apostles of our Lord brought unto us." And they Shall hear the cry: "Behold! the garden before you! Ye have been made its inheritors for your deeds (of righteousness)." [Surah: 6. al-a`raf]

Jannah

farrahk52 wrote: »

women can actually end up very emotional and even cry (and shout) for no obvious reason....So women have it much worse.

Once again- speak for yourself. I have NEVER seen ANY woman be so caught up in their hormonal changes that they haven't been able to make decisions for themselves and its a really terrible excuse to use in order to let men make all the decisions

farrahk52 wrote: »

Strength helps when doing hard labour like building / construction work, building roads, fire fighting etc theres a reason why women dont usually go for those sorts of jobs. Men are generally stronger therefore cabn physically protect women than the other way round. BTW, as far as i and many other women go, ofcourse we want to be protected, its a lovely feeling.

Obviously they have more physical strength- but if they have no mental or moral strength, they're completely useless. Women don't 'need' men to 'protect' them- and from what, may I ask?? The chainsaw wielding rapist that would be strolling down the street?! I think not! I for one do not need protection- I am an adult and perfectly capable of looking after myself. A woman who 'needs a man to protect her' is a coward and simply playing into the hands of stereotypes of being the damsel in distress. Please! :rolleyes:

farrahk52 wrote: »

I'm saying that women shouldnt feel pressured into being career driven while raising kids and cleaning and cooking. Unfortunately most men dont cook or clean even though were not living in the dark ages. EVEN wait for it, western men. I think women deserve more of a right what with having to carry a baby for 9 months, feeling bloated and then weaning them. I agree men should do more but usually they are tired after a hard grind at work and sit there watching footy or playing snooker or video games..or make plenty of excuses, happens all the time and the women end up doing MOST of it.

Women are not forced kicking and screaming into work- it is a decision much like staying at home is also a decision. What about the men? Surely they are his children too? Why doesn't he get pressurised into sitting around with babies all day instead of coming home a jolly little plonker, having sex with his wife (who can never, under Islamic conditions, refuse him- yet another favouritism of men) and then go to bed a happy little fellow? You're talking about stone age men- and yes, they do exist in every society, but it is the woman's choice who she marries and if she marries that kind of guy then that's her tough. Women are more than baby carers and housekeepers and my point is that they should be treated like an equal to a man, not a step below

farrahk52 wrote: »

I dont need other women telling me how to live my life, just as much i dont think they'll be pleased with me telling them how they should live theirs.

Makes no difference to me, all I'm saying is that the mind boggles as to why any woman would enjoy such servitude and obedience to a man

farrahk52 wrote: »

Yes we have a brain, but two brains are better than one (sometimes) and 4 hands are better than two.

Exactly- yet if your husband is 'head of the house' and the decision maker, then he is only using one brain. My point is that an equal partnership where nobody comes before anyone else is the answer

farrahk52 wrote: »

I told you how it benefits men, by making women bring half the bacon home so to speak and if they can cook and clean thats the icing on the cake right?. Good job the irish govt. got something right thinking of good ole stable family unit, I'm from England by the way its a bit difft here. BTW Larger workforce = more taxes for them and less benefits to dish out. Many women want careers, children and family life, ofcourse we would want it all, who wouldnt? BUT at what cost? being stressed all the time, not being able to have a comfortable lifestyle, running around like a headless chicken, no thanks. I havnt met ANY women who only want careers only.

It by no means only benefits men- believe it or not, every girl in my school year want to go to college, get an education and a job because that is what would make her happy and fulfilled. And none have met any husbands- so who is benefitting there? "Good job the irish govt. got something right thinking of good ole stable family unit" PFFT!! Got 'something' right? You've totally lost the point. A stable family is not an unequal one where men get the money and women toil in the kitchen all day. In fact, I would call that dysfunctional. And may I add, the Irish government get a lot right, so I wouldn't go saying "Good job the irish govt. got something right"- they get a hell of a lot right a lot of the time and its one I am proud of. My mother was highly successful, earning a six figure wage and she also took care of her kids brilliantly- with the help of my dad who shared the childcare and housework equally. It IS possible- you just need team effort. Obviously a woman who is trying to juggle family and work on her own will be at a disadvantage.

farrahk52 wrote: »

I'm not so sure they did a poll recently on what women wanted to be and MOST (not all) of them said WAGS (footballers wives), pop stars and to be married to rich men, i personally wouldnt mind a life of lesiure myself. Ofcourse this poll was done in the UK im sure if it was done in the UAE we would expect women to say doctors, lawyers, engineers.

Maybe you can't remember the poll because it DOESN'T EXIST. What ages did they interview?? 10 year olds?? Just because the UAE is an Islamic country doesn't mean they are any less superficial and greedy than the west- I was taken aback when I went to Dubai by the blatant displaying of wealth by the women (who were wearking niqab, may I add) - extremely strong perfumes and simply dripping with gold and jewels. I highly doubt that because you ask a different country they will say they want to be doctors, lawyers and engineers- extremely idealistic thinking. Humans are humans no matter where they are and I can assure you that one country is as immoral as the other- only difference is that Islamic countries tend to censor or execute anything that doesn't fit into their ideals.

farrahk52 wrote: »

What is the purpose of life? Whats the point of having SO MUCH ambition in something which can end ANYTIME soon?

The purpose of life is to make a meaningful contribution to society and to enjoy yourself. Ambition is the drive in life, the force that keeps you going and it can be for the most simple of things- hell, lots of people need ambition to get out of bed in the morning. Even YOU have ambition believe it or not, and it seems to be aimed at Islam. My personal view is that life is like a beautiful garden- why can't we enjoy it for what it is without needing to believe that there are faries at the bottom too?

farrahk52 wrote: »

i meant that something has to give and i personally believe if you bring children into the world they should be your no.1 priority. I feel like i cant achieve all these things and be a career woman (without having maids or nannies or cleaners) as its too tiring and i end up being stressed, ive spoken to alot of women about this and most of them feel the same, some of them just carry on under the immense pressure because they have no choice.

I agree that family life is paramount, however, that does NOT mean that women should be confined to house duties alone

farrahk52 wrote: »

Im not forcing anyones opinion to change, we all have difft outlooks on life, we should agree to disagree, esp find it patronising when a man tells me how women should feel. No-one should force someone elses opinion as we all have the right to do whats right for us aslong as its not harming anyone else, if i choose to wear a burka its not anyone elses business, i shouldnt even have to explain myself lol, is there a forum asking why nuns wear the habit?, somethings just dawned on me, is it fair we're being asked this question and not nuns,why am i even on this site, how many times do i have to repeat myself?, will some people ever listen?.

Firstly, about you finding it "patronising when a man tells me how women should feel" I would agree- which is why I am a woman. :rolleyes: Secondly, I am not forcing my opinion on you, I am merely stating mine, there is no way of changing your deeply imbedding ideas as much as you cannot change mine. Yes, you can wear a burka is it pleases you to do so- anyone can do anything so long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. I feel the same way about homosexuals should be allowed to have sex with eachother, women should be allowed to pursue their professional lives and people should be allowed to believe in what they want- so long as their actions don't hurt others.

farrahk52 wrote: »

Finally when i first discovered islam i think i was alittle too extreme in my thinking, maybe i watched too many jerry springer shows and perhaps did not hang out with many 'decent' westerners (apart from at uni) and on top of that saw how people mocked women who covered and were obsessed by fake things like fashion which they judge people on, how materialistic and fake (and empty) they were and this repulsed me. Maybe it was the shock of finding a new way of life that was alien to me which i had been searching for. Anyway i have learnt that not every westerner sleeps around, binge drinks and does ontoward things for the derogation of society

I am glad you recognised this. 'Westerners' cannot be heaped into one bundle the same way 'Muslims' can't be classed by what we see in the taliban controlled countries. Stereotypes are always wrong.

farrahk52 wrote: »

I dont want to spend anymore time on here would rather join some islamic forums as i want to talk about other things than women all the time and try and perfect my deen (religion) as ultimately this is what is going to be of benefit to me.

Trust me, I do actually have a life outside talking about women :rolleyes: Personally I'm going to not go out worshipping anything or trying to perfect my 'deen' which I believe is selfish as it only benefits me. I would prefer to do something more contructive and give something back to society rather than sitting about and reflecting on how much better I am than 'sinners' and 'kafirs'

SimpleSam06

farrahk52 wrote: »

I think we experience too many desires
.
.
.
Ignorance is not bliss in islam.

Do you not see the cognitive dissonance there?

farrahk52 wrote: »

is it fair we're being asked this question and not nuns

Believe me if nuns came on they would get just as much of a questionnaire. The main difference of course is that most people believe that nuns elected the lifestyle for themselves, and if they want to leave, thats their choice. Islam has neither of the above.

Ultimately I think there is a lot of confusion in the Muslim world about the western world. Its no longer a question of conflicting religious viewpoints - hasn't been for some time. The western world, if we are going to call it that, has by a variety of processes managed to maximise the potential (and potential is a very powerful thing) of its society, by bringing about a semblance of equality among its citizens, allowing the best to rise to the top. The price if you want to call it that is the loss of the sacred cows - nothing is untouchable any more, nothing goes without question.

Miniskirts and high heels, makeup and jewelry, all of these things are allowed because there is no perceived harm. Since the threat of the punishment of a prophet is apparently not enough to make men in other countries control their baser desires, western civilisations to an extent have focused on not just the punishments of a fair and just rule of law, but on changing the mindset of people and educating them in what is acceptable.

The underlying spiritual feeling, even if no one has come out and said as much, is that religion is not required or even important, for the simple reason that nobody has to our knowledge come back and had any influence on the world as we know it, except through self appointed people, apostles, saints, prophets, call it what you will. Its not a materialistic viewpoint, its a purely logical one that accepts that religion is not helpful to the furtherance of knowledge and hence power. Its very much a "we'll cross that bridge if we come to it" attitude.

Therefore while the Muslim world may be looking at the west as the crusaders and the christians, the truth is that the west hasn't been in any meaningful way religious for decades or even longer, political tapdancing in the US notwithstanding. The west on the other hand is somewhat justified in viewing the Islamic world as being much more strongly religious, with all that entails, and deals with it on that basis. So its fairly pointless quoting from the bible or Islamic texts, since western audiences generally won't even bother reading them - it has no relevance.

farrahk52

I did say i wasnt going to be on here again but made an exception after it was implied i lied about the poll, after this I wont because frankly speaking I dont feel that us muslims need to answer to anyone let alone people who cant control their own basic nafs or problems in their own society and would rather discuss the dresscode of women.

Once again- speak for yourself. I have NEVER seen ANY woman be so caught up in their hormonal changes that they haven't been able to make decisions for themselves and its a really terrible excuse to use in order to let men make all the decisions

Its not about the ability of making decisions!, its about responsibility! we're sitting here trying to find a reason why men can have the final say (aslong as its in accordance within the deen) but this is wrong, we dont know if theres a reason for this or not, Allah has just said he has given one more strength than the other and men are the maintainers of women, i cant say for sure why he gave strength to men and not women or why not both!. Responsibilities are given out to the creation as Allah swt wills. We all have tests and everyone is tested, as humans we have control over animals, does this mean animals cant live without us or are not better than us - no but they have been put under our mercy as a test, every relationship is a test and someone has to be accountable, like the imam is accountable to Allah. Also theres not always a reason for things, like men in islam are not allowed to wear gold or silk, theres no real significance but only women can wear them, Allah chooses whatever regulations he wills and as a muslim you are required to abide by the rules to pass the test, you dont have to agree with it as you dont believe in islam.

Obviously they have more physical strength- but if they have no mental or moral strength, they're completely useless. Women don't 'need' men to 'protect' them- and from what, may I ask?? The chainsaw wielding rapist that would be strolling down the street?! I think not! I for one do not need protection- I am an adult and perfectly capable of looking after myself. A woman who 'needs a man to protect her' is a coward and simply playing into the hands of stereotypes of being the damsel in distress. Please! :rolleyes:

A woman gets raped every 3 mins in the UK - or something like that, pls check prev post. Unfortuantely mental or moral strength is perhaps not the most required strength when it comes to stopping an attack, otherwise these women would be able to defend themselves. To deny the stats is to be ignorant of the facts.

Most 'normal' women do like to be protected, no-one wants a wimp of a man, say you go out a night out theres nothing worse than a man who hides behind you in a fight lol. No offence but its true in most cases unless your like a body builder. Most little girls want to be princesses or damsels in distress not the knight in shining armour - ofcourse there maybe and you are probably an exception.

I meant the irish govt got something right as apposed to our govt.

Maybe you can't remember the poll because it DOESN'T EXIST. What ages did they interview?? 10 year olds??

The poll did exist, i think it was this one that id read from the independant...Its generally never a good idea to to ACCUSE someone of lying when you have no proof!.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/women-in-twenties-spend-1631000-a-month-on-the-wag-lifestyle-408395.html

The survey of 2,000 women in their early twenties, found that they were more concerned with femininity rather than feminism. Earning an average of just over £18,000 a year, respondents spent £1,156 a month on clothes, beauty products and entertainment.
The average young woman's wardrobe contains 151 items, including 25 pairs of shoes, eight handbags and four hats, but only six per cent wear all these clothes.

Almost half have credit card debts and owe an average of £3,380. Four in ten admit that they still rely on their parents to bale them out when they overspend.

The average young woman goes out four nights a week and six out of ten women are drunk at least once every seven days.
Seven out of ten say their social life is better than their mother's at the same age, and more than half believe they have a better sex life, but 55 per cent admit that they experience less romance than their parents.
Top of the ten most admired women came Victoria Beckham, followed by Kylie Minogue, Jennifer Aniston and Jordan. The only woman to make it on to the list who is not an actress, model or singer is Tory MP Anne Widdecombe (although nine out of ten respondents said they had no interest in politics).

Donna Armstrong, editor of More magazine, said: "This generation of young women are having the time of their lives and 23 is the ultimate age. Most (six out of ten) want to be a Wag - shopping and partying with their mates and having a gorgeous, preferably rich, bloke on their arm."

But the young women in the survey are also a mass of contradictions; 92 per cent say that celebrities are too thin, but the super-slim Victoria Beckham was voted as having the second best female body. Two thirds say they care about the environment, yet only four per cent would pay more tax to protect it."

The purpose of life is to make a meaningful contribution to society and to enjoy yourself. Ambition is the drive in life, the force that keeps you going and it can be for the most simple of things- hell, lots of people need ambition to get out of bed in the morning. Even YOU have ambition believe it or not, and it seems to be aimed at Islam. My personal view is that life is like a beautiful garden- why can't we enjoy it for what it is without needing to believe that there are faries at the bottom too?

I agree that family life is paramount, however, that does NOT mean that women should be confined to house duties alone

Firstly, about you finding it "patronising when a man tells me how women should feel" I would agree- which is why I am a woman. :rolleyes:

Sorry i did not realise you were a woman and your name isnt indicative as it means paradise in arabic.

I am glad you recognised this. 'Westerners' cannot be heaped into one bundle the same way 'Muslims' can't be classed by what we see in the taliban controlled countries. Stereotypes are always wrong.

Oh why are people on here then, why not say oh i dont agree with stereotyping muslim women so we shouldnt be having this discussion as not all muslim women are the same!. Oh and pls dont rolleyes all the time, how old are you, 10?

Trust me, I do actually have a life outside talking about women :rolleyes: Personally I'm going to not go out worshipping anything or trying to perfect my 'deen' which I believe is selfish as it only benefits me. I would prefer to do something more contructive and give something back to society rather than sitting about and reflecting on how much better I am than 'sinners' and 'kafirs'

I dont think its selfish to focus on perfecting something one holds dearly to his or her heart, if i was to take an LLB i'd be darn sure to make the best of it, an LLB would only last me a lifetime and theres no guarantee I will live till tomorrow. Its not about being better than a kaffir (non believer) or a sinner we are ALL children of Adam and Eve and as a muslim i wish for you what i wish for myself - Jannah!.

SimpleSam06

farrahk52 wrote: »

Allah has just said he has given one more strength than the other and men are the maintainers of women, i cant say for sure why he gave strength to men and not women or why not both!

Eh but regardless of the listing of largely unrelated and un backed up statistics you just mentioned, you have to admit the reality is that many, many western women go out and get drunk with total strangers, dressed in very revealing clothing, every night of the week.

So why has Allah, who has given men the strength, apparently not given them enough strength to not assault women who wear whatever they like? A further implication is that He has given this strength to the men of the non-Muslim west, and witheld it from their Muslim brethern. Taking it a step further, one could then imply that the dangers to a Muslim woman who wore what she liked would not be her own fault, as she simply lives in the body given to her by Allah, but stem rather from the inability of Muslim men to control themselves in a manner considered routine in the West?

As a corollary, Muslim men should then be forced to wear blindfolds when in public or in the presence of women, to prevent their inherently weaker natures from leading them into antisocial behaviour, since apparently the threat of Allah's wrath is insufficient as a deterrent.

oceanclub

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Eh but regardless of the listing of largely unrelated and un backed up statistics you just mentioned, you have to admit the reality is that many, many western women go out and get drunk with total strangers, dressed in very revealing clothing, every night of the week.

So why has Allah, who has given men the strength, apparently not given them enough strength to not assault women who wear whatever they like?

Based on a poll, indeed, it seems that in Egypt at least, those in modest dress are _more_ likely to get unwanted attention. Unlike Farrah, I will actually refer you to the poll, rather than include it as one more unsubstantiated fact upon another:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7514567.stm

"Sexual harassment of women in Egypt is on the increase and observing Islamic dress code is no deterrent, according to a survey published this week.


The findings contradict the widely held belief in Egypt that unveiled women are more likely to suffer harassment than veiled ones.

SEXUAL HARASSMENT IN EGYPT
Experienced by 98% of foreign women visitors
Experienced by 83% of Egyptian women
62% of Egyptian men admitted harassing women
53% of Egyptian men blame women for 'bringing it on'
Source: Egyptian Centre for Women's Rights

Participants in the survey were shown pictures of women wearing different kinds of dress - from the mini skirt to the niqab (full face veil) and asked which were more likely to be harassed.

More than 60% - including female respondents - suggested the scantily clad woman was most at risk. But in reality the study concluded the majority of the victims of harassment were modestly dressed women wearing Islamic headscarves.

ECWR head Nihad Abu El-Qoumsan said that even veiled women who were victims of harassment blamed themselves.

Western women who took part in the study demonstrated a strong belief in their entitlement to personal safety and freedom of movement, she says, but this was totally absent among Egyptian respondents.

No-one spoke about freedom of choice, freedom of movement or the right to legal protection. No-one showed any awareness that the harasser was a criminal, regardless of what clothes the victim was wearing."

Isn't the figure in bold an astonishing figure?

P.

SimpleSam06

oceanclub wrote: »

Isn't the figure in bold an astonishing figure?

The situation gets even more interesting when you consider that the majority of sexual or gender based assaults in the west would probably not be from Muslim men (I'm pulling this out of my bum here, but it feels right), even in countries with a high percentage of Muslims living in them. So what does this imply for the general respect for the laws of Allah rather than the laws of man?

oceanclub

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

The situation gets even more interesting when you consider that the majority of sexual or gender based assaults in the west would probably not be from Muslim men (I'm pulling this out of my bum here, but it feels right), even in countries with a high percentage of Muslims living in them. So what does this imply for the general respect for the laws of Allah rather than the laws of man?

Of course, let's not forget that the source of this poll is the Egyptian Centre for Women's Rights. These are probably feminists, and as we know from Farrah's indepth research of the entire subject, feminism is a load of cack. These women would be better off going baking cakes and not worrying their pretty little heads about men abusing them.

Women: Know Your Limits!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjxY9rZwNGU

P.

getz

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

The situation gets even more interesting when you consider that the majority of sexual or gender based assaults in the west would probably not be from Muslim men (I'm pulling this out of my bum here, but it feels right), even in countries with a high percentage of Muslims living in them. So what does this imply for the general respect for the laws of Allah rather than the laws of man?

i think you are wrong sex assaults in the uk are the same for christian and muslim males ;but if you read the press it always looks as if the muslm male is worse the main reason is because of the number of [forced marriages] indeed a new law has now been passed to stop it happening-all this is easy to check -and please remember forced marriage has nothing to do with islam

rocksteady

farrahk52 wrote: »

Its not about the ability of making decisions!, its about responsibility! we're sitting here trying to find a reason why men can have the final say (aslong as its in accordance within the deen) but this is wrong, we dont know if theres a reason for this or not, Allah has just said he has given one more strength than the other and men are the maintainers of women, i cant say for sure why he gave strength to men and not women or why not both!. Responsibilities are given out to the creation as Allah swt wills. We all have tests and everyone is tested, as humans we have control over animals, does this mean animals cant live without us or are not better than us - no but they have been put under our mercy as a test, every relationship is a test and someone has to be accountable, like the imam is accountable to Allah. Also theres not always a reason for things, like men in islam are not allowed to wear gold or silk, theres no real significance but only women can wear them, Allah chooses whatever regulations he wills and as a muslim you are required to abide by the rules to pass the test, you dont have to agree with it as you dont believe in islam.

There is always a reason. As a believer or non-believer, it must be understood that all religious rules have reasons, either as a believer you believe Allah wanted something done (or not done) for some purpose or as a non-believer you believe the writer of the religious text wanted something done or not done for some purpose. You are correct that people dont necessarily have to like them (just like laws). But there is no reason for not wanting to understand them, for nothing else than not wanting to offend Allah for doing something else that skirts the issue he wanted to avoid by having the rule in the first place.

farrahk52 wrote: »

A woman gets raped every 3 mins in the UK - or something like that, pls check prev post. Unfortuantely mental or moral strength is perhaps not the most required strength when it comes to stopping an attack, otherwise these women would be able to defend themselves. To deny the stats is to be ignorant of the facts.

According to the Fawcett Society, "every 34 minutes a rape is reported to the police". While still a pretty damning statistic, it still doesn't mean that women need the immediate help of a man to avoid being raped. There are many things women can do to lessen their appearance as a target to rapists, such as the areas they frequent, who they are with and how they hold themselves. While it is preferable that women travel ith a companion, that companion doesn't have to be a man.

farrahk52 wrote: »

Most 'normal' women do like to be protected, no-one wants a wimp of a man, say you go out a night out theres nothing worse than a man who hides behind you in a fight lol. No offence but its true in most cases unless your like a body builder. Most little girls want to be princesses or damsels in distress not the knight in shining armour - ofcourse there maybe and you are probably an exception.

I meant the irish govt got something right as apposed to our govt.

I think most normal women just want to feel safe. Its all well and good, having a big strong burly man with you when you go out to make you feel protected, but what happens when he leaves (maybe to go to the bathroom)? What happens during the day when he is at work? Do you spend every waking minute with your man?

farrahk52 wrote: »

The poll did exist, i think it was this one that id read from the independant...Its generally never a good idea to to ACCUSE someone of lying when you have no proof!.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/women-in-twenties-spend-1631000-a-month-on-the-wag-lifestyle-408395.html

Its a poll done by More magazine, a fashion magazine for twenty year old women, of course the people they poll are going to be like that, it would be like polling the readers of "Manchester United Magazine" what sports they support, what players they think are good and what they want to be when they grow up. Its incredibly biased. The results would be completely different if they gave the same poll to female readers of the financial times, or national geographic, you cant really make any comparisons or conclusions from it.

farrahk52 wrote: »

Oh why are people on here then, why not say oh i dont agree with stereotyping muslim women so we shouldnt be having this discussion as not all muslim women are the same!

You are the one who thinks all women should be obedient to their husbands be cause all women need a man to protect them.

SimpleSam06

getz wrote: »

i think you are wrong sex assaults in the uk are the same for christian and muslim males

Sorry, do you mean the percentage of sexual assaults per capita based on religious affiliation, or an equal number of sexual assaults for Muslim / non Muslim (as I mentioned the tag "Christian" has very little meaning any more) and can you back that up?

Jannah

oceanclub wrote: »

Of course, let's not forget that the source of this poll is the Egyptian Centre for Women's Rights. These are probably feminists, and as we know from Farrah's indepth research of the entire subject, feminism is a load of cack. These women would be better off going baking cakes and not worrying their pretty little heads about men abusing them.

Women: Know Your Limits!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjxY9rZwNGU

P.

Brilliant!!
I think I'll just go and fetch slippers for father- my strong male protector and guaranteer of my virginity to my future master

farrahk52 wrote: »

I dont feel that us muslims need to answer to anyone let alone people who cant control their own basic nafs or problems in their own society and would rather discuss the dresscode of women.

Yeah Farrah, you're so right- next time I walk through Cork City, I wanna see something like THIS going on:
http://flickr.com/photos/hamishak/1162459832/

farrahk52 wrote: »

Its not about the ability of making decisions!, its about responsibility!

Nope, but close- it's about making responsible decisions- for yourself

farrahk52 wrote: »

we're sitting here trying to find a reason why men can have the final say (aslong as its in accordance within the deen) but this is wrong, we dont know if theres a reason for this or not, Allah has just said he has given one more strength than the other and men are the maintainers of women, i cant say for sure why he gave strength to men and not women or why not both!... theres not always a reason for things, like men in islam are not allowed to wear gold or silk, theres no real significance but only women can wear them, Allah chooses whatever regulations he wills and as a muslim you are required to abide by the rules to pass the test, you dont have to agree with it as you dont believe in islam.

Do in other words it's like a Nike ad - "Just do it"?? Blind faith and senselessness... and yet we wonder why so many atrocities are going on in the world

farrahk52 wrote: »

A woman gets raped every 3 mins in the UK - or something like that, pls check prev post. Unfortuantely mental or moral strength is perhaps not the most required strength when it comes to stopping an attack, otherwise these women would be able to defend themselves. To deny the stats is to be ignorant of the facts.

In saying this you are assuming:
1) These rape statistics don't include any Muslims as either the rape victims or perpetrators, despite the sizable Muslim community in the UK
2) That rape is all about lust, which it most certainly is not. If you look into it, rape is about having power over someone and being simply a complete sadist http://www.socyberty.com/Crime/Rape-A-Crime-of-Power.262241
3) That rapes are far less frequent in Islamic countries because of official stastistics- when in actual fact rape is so shameful that it would make a woman unmarriageable, 4 witnesses are needed and it is almost impossible to prove rape and domestic rape is not acknowledged because a wife is expected to fulfill her husband's sexual needs 24/7

Mohammed said, "If a husband calls his wife to his bed for sex and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the angels will curse her till morning." - Sahih Bukhari 4:54: 460

of course, if you get a slave, it does take the heat of you for a while:

Those who restrain their sexual desires except with their wives and slave girls, are free from blame – Quran 70:29-30

farrahk52 wrote: »

Most 'normal' women do like to be protected, no-one wants a wimp of a man, say you go out a night out theres nothing worse than a man who hides behind you in a fight lol. No offence but its true in most cases unless your like a body builder. Most little girls want to be princesses or damsels in distress not the knight in shining armour - ofcourse there maybe and you are probably an exception.

So strong women like Benazir Bhutto who don't require men to 'fight for them' are abnormal then, yes? A real man wouldn't need to fight with his fists- only dim witted males who can't articulate their issues with words need to resort to that kind of animalistic behaviour. And also, you are not a 'little girl'- you are a fully grown woman. So am I- that's why I've put these foolish 'damsel in distress' ideals back to when I was 5. And I am by no means an exception. Any woman I know would be insulted at the idea that she 'needed' a man because she was a weak little damsel in distress.

farrahk52 wrote: »

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/women-in-twenties-spend-1631000-a-month-on-the-wag-lifestyle-408395.html
Donna Armstrong, editor of More magazine, said: "This generation of young women are having the time of their lives and 23 is the ultimate age. Most (six out of ten) want to be a Wag - shopping and partying with their mates and having a gorgeous, preferably rich, bloke on their arm."

As was mentioned quite rightly earlier by Rocksteady (see below)- this is a magazine for young women and in all fairness, is aimed at a catagory of women that by no means emaluate the modern educated women of the West. Obviously, if you look at a trashy source, you'll find unsavoury outcomes. Believe it or not, this has nothing to do with religion- and if this is how some women wish to live their lives, who are you to snub them? Muslim women are the same as any other woman, believe it or not. They are not all perfect little dears that sit with their legs crossed till their married only to bake bread and tend to their children all day. Let these young women enjoy their lives- but don't even think for a second that this is a representation of EVERY Western woman- or even of the majority.

rocksteady wrote: »

Its a poll done by More magazine, a fashion magazine for twenty year old women, of course the people they poll are going to be like that, it would be like polling the readers of "Manchester United Magazine" what sports they support, what players they think are good and what they want to be when they grow up. Its incredibly biased. The results would be completely different if they gave the same poll to female readers of the financial times, or national geographic, you cant really make any comparisons or conclusions from it.

Thank you!

AbuBakr

UU wrote: »

I not being anti-Muslim or anything, ok? But it is in my opinion that the whole wearing of the berka (the whole veil for the body) is quite disturbing and un-natural. Why don't males wear this so other women can't have attraction and impure thoughts?

As Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala) says in the Glorious Qur'an (interpretation of meaning) <And Allah has made for you out of that which he has created shades, and has made for you places of refuge in the mountains, and has made for you garments to protect you from the heat (and cold), and coats of mail to protect you from your (mutual) violence. Thus does He perfect His Favour unto you, that you may submit yourself to His Will (in Islam).> [Surah An-Nahl 16, Ayah 81]

Men need to dress modestly. Our beloved Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) always covered himself with loose garments, and we men should follow this example.

hivizman

Just noticed that this is now the most posted-to thread on the Islam forum, overtaking the thread on Stoning to death and Sharia law.

Tomk1

Seems that the hijab is for protection/hiding Muslim girls, as women are to be respected, then the debate is now about sexual assaults, and facts and statistics. Well I have one that anyone can check right now with http://www.alexa.com
How come there are more pron sites in the top 100 sites in Pakistan than the UK
http://www.alexa.com/site/ds/top_sites?cc=PK&ts_mode=country&lang=none
I counted 7 not including the share-torrent sites. Also how come there is a lot of Islam porn on the internet, even with Muslim girls wearing the Hijab whist performing sexual acts.

I just cannot understand the whole respecting women by treating them as some kind of object to be covered away, like a painting or a piece of art. Could we please be truthful for once, and not treat us like fools.

Anyway you will prob just deleate this post.

AbuBakr

Tomk1 wrote: »

Seems that the hijab is for protection/hiding Muslim girls, as women are to be respected, then the debate is now about sexual assaults, and facts and statistics. Well I have one that anyone can check right now with http://www.alexa.com
How come there are more porn sites in the top 100 sites in Pakistan than the UK
http://www.alexa.com/site/ds/top_sites?cc=PK&ts_mode=country&lang=none
I counted 7 not including the share-torrent sites. Also how come there is a lot of Islam porn on the internet, even with Muslim girls wearing the Hijab whist performing sexual acts.

I just cannot understand the whole respecting women by treating them as some kind of object to be covered away, like a painting or a piece of art. Could we please be truthful for once, and not treat us like fools.

Almighty Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala) orders us to command Al-'Adl (behaving justly and not associating any partners with Allah) and Al-Ihsan (perfection in performing our duties for the sake of Allah alone), and to forbid Al-Fahsha (all that is obscene, indecent and shameless), Al-Munkar (what Allah has forbidden as evil) and Al-Baghi (transgressing the rights of others). [Surah An-Nahl 16, Ayah 90]

But the Shaytan is powerful in our world. So we must encourage modest behaviour on the part of both men and women. Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala) has given us guidance in the Glorious Book, and our Model and Example, the Best of Men (sallallahu alayhi wasallam), also gives us advice. Modest dress for women, concealing their beauty and ornaments from strangers, must go with modest behaviour by men, lowering their gaze and refraining from those acts that anger Allah.

Tomk1

Caverna wrote: »

1) Men are not given a cop-out clause.

Look at it like this, Islam began dealing with the issue of domestic abuse 1400 years ago. Women only got their full rights in 20th Century in the non-Muslim world.

Strange the birth of Islam was when Mo died in 632: 2008-632= 1376 years old.

Tomk1

AbuBakr wrote: »

Almighty Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala) orders us to command Al-'Adl (behaving justly and not associating any partners with Allah) and Al-Ihsan (perfection in performing our duties for the sake of Allah alone), and to forbid Al-Fahsha (all that is obscene, indecent and shameless), Al-Munkar (what Allah has forbidden as evil) and Al-Baghi (transgressing the rights of others). [Surah An-Nahl 16, Ayah 90]

But the Shaytan is powerful in our world. So we must encourage modest behaviour on the part of both men and women. Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala) has given us guidance in the Glorious Book, and our Model and Example, the Best of Men (sallallahu alayhi wasallam), also gives us advice. Modest dress for women, concealing their beauty and ornaments from strangers, must go with modest behaviour by men, lowering their gaze and refraining from those acts that anger Allah.

That is fair enough but does not seem to work, now if a math model is wrong then it is just wrong, yes in the west there is rape n murders (aswell) but being open about it and addressing it, rather than hiding it n' pretending/denying it away. Face the fact that we are animals with needs such as food, love, companionship, dignity; but having to believe that a woman has to be hidden/suppressing sexual expression just so that some males can act normal is clearly so so wrong. (and it doesn't even work)

farrahk52

Since other people have brought up subjects relating to islam but not neccassarily the hijab i would like to take the opportunity to do the same. The west has double standards when it comes to islam and the muslims.

Palestine is being bombed to oblivion, over 300 innocent men, women and children have died because of the israeli terrorists and the British media have ONLY shown AIR RAIDS in the dark many 100 miles away. Whenever a palestinain kills a jew the BBC / CNN and other western media show that jew hurt in 25 different angles but when muslim blood is shed they just show bombing raids form 100s of miles! where is the blood and guts and gore? ofcourse you can see it on arab channels such as al-jazeera!. Why is the FREEDOM FOR ALL loving west so biased in this and instead resorts to attacking women wearing a headscarf!!!

When it comes to palestinians killing a few people in their occupied land they are called terrorists and this is what OUR western leaders, those who LOVE TO LIBERATE THE OPPRESSED AND ARE FOREMOST IN HUMAN RIGHTS said about the indiscrimate TERRORISTIC barbaric and cowardly raids ...

http://www.stopwar.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=859&Itemid=27

Mr Miliband said a recent rise in rocket attacks against Israel and the "massive loss of life" from the Israeli bombings made it a "dangerous moment.

Mr Miliband said he and Prime Minister Gordon Brown were following developments in Gaza with "grave concern".

"The UK supports an urgent ceasefire and immediate halt toall violence," he said.

The foreign secretary said Mr Brown had spoken his Israeli counterpart Ehud Olmert and made it clear Israel must stick by its humanitarian obligations.

Mr Brown had previously said he was "deeply concerned", calling on Palestinian militants to halt all rocket attacks on Israel and saying Israel must "do everything in its power to avoid civilian casualties".

Conservative leader David Cameron called the violence "horrific" and said both sides must show "restraint". (My note , i could be wrong but i didnt know palestinians had 1000's of tanks, armour and F-16s like the zionists!)

Liberal Democrat foreign affairs spokesman Ed Davey described the strikes as "disproportionate" and "unacceptable".

"We should treat Israel as we treated South Africa during apartheid. They should be shunned."

LET me ask you is there any (even the tiniest) mention of TERRORISM or wether this is an act of terrorist BARBARICS like they would if the shoe was on the other foot?

If this is not pure blatant TERRORISM (incidentally during the election campaign in israel) i dont know what is. And they tell us HOW THEY WANT TO LIBERATE US. We all know hamas was elected democratically by the people of palestine but the puppet leader Mahmood abbas was FORCED into the role of the prime minister by the WEST. Yes its democratic aslong it SUITS YOU isnt it. What a joke, the evil capitalistic forces might fool the simple laymen who cant think for themselves but they wont fool US ALL.

af_thefragile

Right, i just came across this thread so i haven't read all of it (though things do seem to be going a little on the ugly side).
Anyway, to answer the title of this thread why do women have to wear burkhas?

Women don't have to wear burkhas. They just need to cover the parts of their body thats it. Just like any modest institution would call for.
Women shouldn't go around flaunting their bodies for people to lust after. They just need to cover themselves with modest clothes (no leather tights n fishnets) and cover their heads which a lot of muslim women don't really follow anymore and not many people frown on them cuz of that.

A lot of negative imagery and news have gone across depicting muslim women and repressed and subjugated. This is mostly not true. There are a few cultures that maybe subjugating women around but the same could be same about christian europe a century ago. But then blame the culture for that not the religion!

To end with a little thought, If you see a catholic nun covered from head to toe, you'ld call her religious.
If you see a muslim women wearing a scarf, you'ld call her repressed!!

Hypocrisy much?!

Jannah

farrahk52 wrote: »

Since other people have brought up subjects relating to islam but not neccassarily the hijab i would like to take the opportunity to do the same.

It's called creating a new thread...
I'm sure plenty people are interested in that topic at this time and you would be better off taking that conversation elsewhere. Especially since you have already contributed to and apparently 'left' this thread.

af_thefragile wrote: »

They just need to cover themselves with modest clothes (no leather tights n fishnets)

I find it really irritating when people go from one extreme to the other. It's as if the only people walking around are muslim women fully covered and hookers!! In my opinion it is all about dressing appropriately and I'm sorry but full length sleeves and skirt/pants just isn't appropriate in a hot climate or when on the beach or going for a swim. There has to be a sense of moderation between looking like a street walker and being completely covered. I think people should dress how they want and hopefully they will realise that how they dress will give them a certain response, whether it is positive or negative. That said, I don't for one second think that muslim women should be harassed for wearing the head scarf, but I also think that muslim women shouldn't moan about other women showing off their bodies- it's a free country and they have the right to wear as little or as much as they wish- just like a Muslim woman. Just don't try to justify islamic clothing my comparing it to fishnets and mini skirts- that's just ridiculous

hivizman

af_thefragile wrote: »

Right, i just came across this thread so i haven't read all of it (though things do seem to be going a little on the ugly side).
Anyway, to answer the title of this thread why do women have to wear burkhas?

Women don't have to wear burkhas. They just need to cover the parts of their body thats it. Just like any modest institution would call for.

Thanks for joining the thread. I think that many people in the West have problems in accepting Muslim practices for women's clothing because of the wide range of views that are expressed. It is certainly the case (as evidence, consider Afghanistan under the Taliban) that some Muslims believe that women should cover themselves completely, including the face, and will produce verses from the Qur'an and quote hadiths that they claim prove that this practice is obligatory. Even the less extreme view seems to be that women should cover their head and all of their body except for their face, hands and feet, while men are required to cover only between the navel and the knees (although men, like women, should be modestly dressed, and the verse of Sura An-Nur (24:30) that sets out the requirement for men to lower their gaze and guard their modesty comes before the verse relating to women). So some people see very little difference between a woman wearing hijab, one wearing niqab (the face veil) and one wearing a burqa, while others see considerable differences.

af_thefragile wrote: »

Women shouldn't go around flaunting their bodies for people to lust after. They just need to cover themselves with modest clothes (no leather tights n fishnets) and cover their heads which a lot of muslim women don't really follow anymore and not many people frown on them cuz of that.

Another aspect that some people in the West find difficulties with is the apparent implication that women are to be held responsible for men's lusts. It's like blaming the rape victim rather than the rapist. Why should women be required to dress modestly or even cover themselves up to an extreme degree rather than men being required to exercise self-control? The effect of culture is important here - if women in a particular culture normally cover themselves, then someone dressing slightly less modestly than the norm may be seen by some men as making herself available, but this is a cultural problem of men in a particular society, and the answer is to deal with how men behave rather than making women responsible for avoiding men's lusts.

af_thefragile wrote: »

A lot of negative imagery and news have gone across depicting muslim women and repressed and subjugated. This is mostly not true. There are a few cultures that maybe subjugating women around but the same could be same about christian europe a century ago. But then blame the culture for that not the religion!

We live in a strange world where, in some countries (France, Turkey) it can be an act of defiance and resistance to wear hijab, while in other countries it's seen as a personal choice, and in yet other countries it would be defiant not to wear hijab.

af_thefragile wrote: »

To end with a little thought, If you see a catholic nun covered from head to toe, you'ld call her religious.
If you see a muslim women wearing a scarf, you'ld call her repressed!!

Hypocrisy much?!

But weren't many catholic nuns effectively repressed by priests?

af_thefragile

Jannah wrote: »

I
I find it really irritating when people go from one extreme to the other. It's as if the only people walking around are muslim women fully covered and hookers!! In my opinion it is all about dressing appropriately and I'm sorry but full length sleeves and skirt/pants just isn't appropriate in a hot climate or when on the beach or going for a swim. There has to be a sense of moderation between looking like a street walker and being completely covered. I think people should dress how they want and hopefully they will realise that how they dress will give them a certain response, whether it is positive or negative. That said, I don't for one second think that muslim women should be harassed for wearing the head scarf, but I also think that muslim women shouldn't moan about other women showing off their bodies- it's a free country and they have the right to wear as little or as much as they wish- just like a Muslim woman. Just don't try to justify islamic clothing my comparing it to fishnets and mini skirts- that's just ridiculous

Well, i just gave an example of what wasn't considered modest.
Many muslim women dress however they want to. If you see muslim women around (and there are plenty in Ireland), not all of them are wearing burkas and all. And most of them have no problem with what they wear. I don't see why people like to make a big fuss about muslim women being repressed into wearing burkas and all cuz thats not the truth with majority of muslim people. They wear what they wear by their own choice and no one forces them to wear to particular outfit until its presentable.

You wouldn't want you daughter to go out dressed up as a hooker. But if she buys herself... i don't know... like a shirt and pants, you wouldn't really care much... Kinda same thing. Sorry for cringing you with that hooker image again...

af_thefragile

hivizman wrote: »

Thanks for joining the thread. I think that many people in the West have problems in accepting Muslim practices for women's clothing because of the wide range of views that are expressed. It is certainly the case (as evidence, consider Afghanistan under the Taliban) that some Muslims believe that women should cover themselves completely, including the face, and will produce verses from the Qur'an and quote hadiths that they claim prove that this practice is obligatory. Even the less extreme view seems to be that women should cover their head and all of their body except for their face, hands and feet, while men are required to cover only between the navel and the knees (although men, like women, should be modestly dressed, and the verse of Sura An-Nur (24:30) that sets out the requirement for men to lower their gaze and guard their modesty comes before the verse relating to women). So some people see very little difference between a woman wearing hijab, one wearing niqab (the face veil) and one wearing a burqa, while others see considerable differences.



Another aspect that some people in the West find difficulties with is the apparent implication that women are to be held responsible for men's lusts. It's like blaming the rape victim rather than the rapist. Why should women be required to dress modestly or even cover themselves up to an extreme degree rather than men being required to exercise self-control? The effect of culture is important here - if women in a particular culture normally cover themselves, then someone dressing slightly less modestly than the norm may be seen by some men as making herself available, but this is a cultural problem of men in a particular society, and the answer is to deal with how men behave rather than making women responsible for avoiding men's lusts.



We live in a strange world where, in some countries (France, Turkey) it can be an act of defiance and resistance to wear hijab, while in other countries it's seen as a personal choice, and in yet other countries it would be defiant not to wear hijab.



But weren't many catholic nuns effectively repressed by priests?

You seem to make good points and i agree with them all... kinda... i think.

As i mentioned already most muslim women dress the way they want to. No one forces them onto what to wear. You'll find muslim women dressed in full burkhas to muslim women dressed in mini skirts. Its really quite a free world nowdays and what the Quran says is that a women should cover all parts of her body apart from her face, hands and feet. Which is what most people dress as anyway... with the exception of wearing a head scarf and a small skirt.

I also do agree that men shouldn't be treated as lust driven animals lacking any sort of self control and that is true. But then take this for instance. If some dude is walking down an alleyway taking loudly on his mobile phone, wearing a big "bling" gold necklace and loads of...eh...shiney stuff... and then is attacked by a bunch of muggers, you'ld partially also blame the dude for being stupid enough to walk down that place flaunting his wealth. He was asking for it. Now thats quite an extreme example...
But to put it to a more realistic example, look at the night clubs where many women dress provocatively, get smashed and end up waking up the next morning in place they don't quite recognise (don't tell me its not common!). Now again you would put more blame on the girl for her actions than the bloke who took advantage of her.

You see, women need to be responsible of their actions too. I think you agree with this and so its only safer for her to be well covered up while walking through dodgy areas than to give the people a nice view to admire.

To end, it is a strange world indeed. And although many nuns might be repressed by the priests, no one seems to make a big fuss bout them... they might be feeling jealous!!