Why do women have to wear Burkas?

hivizman

af_thefragile wrote: »

You see, women need to be responsible of their actions too. I think you agree with this and so its only safer for her to be well covered up while walking through dodgy areas than to give the people a nice view to admire.

Yes, we need to take responsibility for our actions. I've just been reading advice for travellers in South Africa, where, insha'Allah, I shall be going later this month. It basically advised tourists not to go around looking like tourists, with expensive cameras, flashing money and credit cards. Good advice anywhere. The Qur'an (Sura An-Nur 24:31) uses the word zina, which Abdullah Yusuf Ali translates as "beauty and ornaments", for what women should not display, and I have come across the argument that, if women reveal their zina, this is just like tourists flashing their cash - it doesn't excuse their being mugged, but they have made their mugging more likely.

I certainly see a range of clothing styles being adopted by young Muslim women of my acquaintance, though as you note they usually cover up most of the body. A popular style is to wear a loose shirt over quite tight jeans or trousers, with or without a headscarf. A couple go for full hijab with dark abayas, but I haven't come into contact with anyone who goes so far as to wear niqab, let alone an Afghan-style burqa. It's good that the choice is available, though.

Jannah

hivizman wrote: »

But weren't many catholic nuns effectively repressed by priests?

I think the reason people are more accepting of nuns covering themsevles is because when a nun covers herself it is more obviously their choice, whereas some Muslim women (although certainly not the majority) feel pressured into wearing the hijab by family members and social pressure. I don't have a clue where the whole nuns being repressed by preists is coming from!! Nuns don't take orders from preists, perhaps higher authorities, but not priests. I would think that priests and nuns are supposed to be on equal footing

af_thefragile wrote: »

Well, i just gave an example of what wasn't considered modest

Yeah but my point was that it was an extreme example. In the eyes of a true Muslim, shorts and t-shirt wouldn't be modest either, yet when people are talking about the hijab they rarely contrast it with shorts and t-shirt but instead like to create this raunchy, oversexed imagine of a woman in a mini shirt, plunging neckline and fishnets.

af_thefragile wrote: »

Many muslim women dress however they want to.

Well, technically they dress the way God wants them to

af_thefragile wrote: »

They wear what they wear by their own choice and no one forces them to wear to particular outfit until its presentable.

Maybe in a free country like Ireland, but in some middle eastern countries under strict Shariah law this isn't the case. The problem most people have is that it is impossible to distinguish between the woman who is wearing burka/hijab of her own free will and the woman who is wearing it because her family pressurises her to do so.

af_thefragile wrote: »

You wouldn't want you daughter to go out dressed up as a hooker. But if she buys herself... i don't know... like a shirt and pants, you wouldn't really care much... Kinda same thing. Sorry for cringing you with that hooker image again...

I don't really understand how it's the same... I would be glad that my daughter is wearing a shirt and pants because that is what everyone else is wearing and they would be suitable to the climate, whereas a burka or even long pants with long sleeves in a hot climate seems ridiculously uncomfortable and impractical, which is why I wouldn't approve of it

Yusuf Mirza

http://www.alislam.org/library/WOMANINISLAM.pdf

Assalamo alaikum.

I read your recent post where you expressed your concern that Islam or at least Muslims in general seem to treat women quite badly. Generaly in under developed countries where there is poor education, no democracy and general ignorence mistreatment happens. Look at all those "christian" countries in Africa like Uganda, Etheopia, Zimbabwe, Conge etc where mass rape is used as wepon of intimidation. The highest number of sexual asaults happen in Christian countries. Look how the exploitation of women has been normalised in the west with so called glamor models and all types of pornography to the point where even little girls are not safe. Remember in this country untill dome 2 decades ago a woman who was mistreated could not get a divorse and only in the last 60 years that women in the west have the right to work and vote. So ineqality is not a matter of religous influence but rather the ignoring of it. If you cut and paste the link above on your adress bar you will find an excellent book that will certanly help you.

Your friend
Yusuf - Galway

panda100

hivizman wrote: »

Just noticed that this is now the most posted-to thread on the Islam forum.

This saddens me,the hijab/Burka/Niqab is such a non issue!But then again the Western media has always been obsessed with what women wear (or lack of what they wear) so its no suprise they have whipped people into a frenzy about benign pieces of material.

Also It always makes me laugh in this constant,ongoing stupid debate about Muslim womens clothing how those in the West always get on a moral high horse about our 'freedom' to wear whatever we choose. Look around you it's not exactly just Muslims who are wearing 'uniforms'. Im sitting in a library in UCD as I write and so far the last 10 people who have walked past have been wearing a pair of jeans (probably levi) and a mix of Penny's tops for the girls and Hoodies (one was Nike,two were Diesel) for the guys.

If we're going to start denouncing people for the clothes they choose to wear then at least acknowledge that we are as much a slave to corporations as Muslim women are to their religion. At least no one dies and starves to death before there 20th Birthday in a Saipan Sweatshop making muslim womens clothes. Most are handed down or made locally.

Yusuf Mirza

Yah you know they say that women who wear hujab are a threat to society. Well every day i walk to work and sometimes I see an old woman wearing a "shall" (irish hijab) even in summer. Why does she wear it? Modesty she will say!

As recent as the 70's Irish woman wore "shalls" and long coats. When there was a funeral the men would be in one room at the wake and the women in the other.

Even my granparents had an aranged marrige when they were 15 which was normal becouse "discos or clubs" were considered immoral or "haram" by the church remember?

So we Muslims ain't so different we just have not compremised the way other religions have.

celt262

Are women allowed to drive in this country with a veil/Burkas? Apologies if the thread has answered this question previously.

irishconvert

celt262 wrote: »

Are women allowed to drive in this country with a veil/Burkas? Apologies if the thread has answered this question previously.

In Ireland? Yes

Jannah

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

The highest number of sexual asaults happen in Christian countries.

In fairness, the statistics in middle eastern countries are very sketchy seeing as how difficult it is to prove a rape given the amount of witnesses necessary, and also the fact that shame and the worry that they will become unmarriagable if they are found out to no longer be virigins

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

Look how the exploitation of women has been normalised in the west with so called glamor models and all types of pornography to the point where even little girls are not safe.

COMPLETELY AGREE! It was so disgusting, in last Sunday's Independent 'life' magazine there were 44 images of women either in skimpy underwear or a bikini- and this is in JANUARY! It really does disgust me how normal all this has become. I even brought up the issue with my mom this morning and she shrugged it off as if it wasn't a big deal and couldn't understand why I was angry- it's this kind of inactivity that allows this horrible treatment of women to continue

merrionsq

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

As recent as the 70's Irish woman wore "shalls" and long coats. When there was a funeral the men would be in one room at the wake and the women in the other.
Even my granparents had an aranged marrige when they were 15 which was normal becouse "discos or clubs" were considered immoral or "haram" by the church remember?
So we Muslims ain't so different we just have not compremised the way other religions have.

Yes women in many parts of Europe were expected to cover their heads for various reasons (and in the Vatican still). And yes, many arranged marriages did take place. Some of them awful - highlighted in plays like Sive[/URL]. Thankfully those days are over.

Jannah wrote: »

COMPLETELY AGREE! It was so disgusting, in last Sunday's Independent 'life' magazine there were 44 images of women either in skimpy underwear or a bikini- and this is in JANUARY! It really does disgust me how normal all this has become. I even brought up the issue with my mom this morning and she shrugged it off as if it wasn't a big deal and couldn't understand why I was angry- it's this kind of inactivity that allows this horrible treatment of women to continue.

Regardless of anyone's religion, the Sunday Indepent has been a tabloid-ish rag for some time now. E.g Katy French being such a major part of their "news" coverage until recently. As with other tabloids, people who don't like them should choose not to buy them.

oceanclub

Jannah wrote: »

COMPLETELY AGREE! It was so disgusting, in last Sunday's Independent 'life' magazine there were 44 images of women either in skimpy underwear or a bikini- and this is in JANUARY!

So disgusting, that you carefully counted the number of pages?

P.

Jannah

merrionsq wrote: »

And yes, many arranged marriages did take place. Some of them awful

Can't agree with you there- I think FORCED marriages are awful, but that would be completely against the teachings of Islam if a person was forced to marry someone else

merrionsq wrote: »

As with other tabloids, people who don't like them should choose not to buy them.

But it's not the impact on me I'm annoyed about, it's the impact this kind of exploitation of women has on society as a whole. For example, my brother read/leered at it, and he sure as hell isn't going to be complaining or boycotting the Independent, yet it's people like him that it is doing the disasterous damage to as it's teaching him to treat women like a piece of meat

oceanclub wrote: »

So disgusting, that you carefully counted the number of pages?

Lol, actually I checked so that I could write a letter to the editor in complaint, but thanks for making me out to be a big mad lesbian on a public forum and all

af_thefragile

^looks like you're getting it! :pac:

Yes, Islam doesn't want women to go around flaunting their bodies cuz they'll end up being treated like objects of flesh and sexual desire.
You don't get weird, sweaty men getting all crossed eyed over you. You don't get women being pressured into the pictures of the society where they start developing certain health disorders to fit in the perfect frame.
You don't get women competing with each other to attract the most attention.
And you don't end up getting treated like trash by your lousy boyfriend, the one you hooked up with on friday night in that drunken mess.
And so you wouldn't hear stories of celebrities getting drugged out and then ending in and out of rehab.

All that is cuz of society's pressures on women to be this perfect mantel of flesh and desire. Where anything less than perfect seems to be looked down on and rejected. Where they're being forced to alter their appearance every morning to fit into the perfect scene and to avoid hearing "what happened to your face?!". And you people say Islam puts women under pressure!

oceanclub

af_thefragile wrote: »

^looks like you're getting it! :pac:

Yes, Islam doesn't want women to go around flaunting their bodies cuz they'll end up being treated like objects of flesh and sexual desire.
You don't get weird, sweaty men getting all crossed eyed over you.

FALSE

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7514567.stm

Sexual harassment of women in Egypt is on the increase and observing Islamic dress code is no deterrent, according to a survey published this week.


The findings contradict the widely held belief in Egypt that unveiled women are more likely to suffer harassment than veiled ones.

SEXUAL HARASSMENT IN EGYPT
Experienced by 98% of foreign women visitors
Experienced by 83% of Egyptian women
62% of Egyptian men admitted harassing women
53% of Egyptian men blame women for 'bringing it on'
Source: Egyptian Centre for Women's Rights

Participants in the survey were shown pictures of women wearing different kinds of dress - from the mini skirt to the niqab (full face veil) and asked which were more likely to be harassed.

More than 60% - including female respondents - suggested the scantily clad woman was most at risk. But in reality the study concluded the majority of the victims of harassment were modestly dressed women wearing Islamic headscarves.

ECWR head Nihad Abu El-Qoumsan said that even veiled women who were victims of harassment blamed themselves.

Western women who took part in the study demonstrated a strong belief in their entitlement to personal safety and freedom of movement, she says, but this was totally absent among Egyptian respondents.

No-one spoke about freedom of choice, freedom of movement or the right to legal protection. No-one showed any awareness that the harasser was a criminal, regardless of what clothes the victim was wearing.

Yes, I posted this before. Yes, it's worth reposting, as people in this group seem obsessed with prejudices against the decadent West.

P.

af_thefragile

^Again, there comes in the culture vs. religion vs. lack of education debate...

And my post wasn't about sexual harassment anyway. It was about social pressures.
You don't get weird, sweaty men getting crossed eyed over women in "modest" clothes.

DinoBot

af_thefragile wrote: »

^Again, there comes in the culture vs. religion vs. lack of education debate...

.

But does the religion not have a huge impact on the culture ? I think the article shows the creation of a mind-set in the women that leads to them not understanding their rights.

"Western women who took part in the study demonstrated a strong belief in their entitlement to personal safety and freedom of movement, she says, but this was totally absent among Egyptian respondents."

Why do you think its totally absent among Egyptian respondents ?

af_thefragile

^lack of education. That is it.

And Religion has some effect on culture but not all of it. You'll notice a huge difference in culture between an Arab muslim or a Pakistani muslim or a muslim who've been bought up in UK or something...

banshee_bones

Wibbs wrote: »

It seems to suggest that a woman will inflame a man's passions too much if he sees too much of her form. It kinda makes out that men have no control over their baser emotions.

yeah thats what i heard aswell

oceanclub

af_thefragile wrote: »

^Again, there comes in the culture vs. religion vs. lack of education debate...

And my post wasn't about sexual harassment anyway. It was about social pressures.
You don't get weird, sweaty men getting crossed eyed over women in "modest" clothes.

Isn't it odd how regulars in this group regularly attribute blame to the problems of Western society to the lack of Islam, while the problems of predominantly Islamic societies are never ever to do with Islam?

P.

af_thefragile

oceanclub wrote: »

Isn't it odd how regulars in this group regularly attribute blame to the problems of Western society to the lack of Islam, while the problems of predominantly Islamic societies are never ever to do with Islam?

P.

Yes.
Because Islam is very straight forward. Its is the most logical religion out there and yes all the problems in not just the western society but the whole world can be linked to the lack of Islam. Both in the western society and in the Islamic societies.
People either don't follow the religion or they don't understand it.

If everyone followed not just Islam but their own religion properly, there wouldn't be as much violence, mistrust and dishonesty in the world.
And don't say religion is the root of all violence cuz guess what, even if the whole world turns to atheism (which is a religion in itself), even then people will find something to conflict on and the violence will prevail.
If anything religion tells people to be kind, help others, help the poor, be honest, don't lie, don't kill or steal and such things. Things that keep violence at bay. Things that help keep a world a more peaceful place.

If only everyone could simply follow and not rebel with their weak understandings.

oceanclub

af_thefragile wrote: »

Yes.
Because Islam is very straight forward. Its is the most logical religion out there and yes all the problems in not just the western society but the whole world can be linked to the lack of Islam. Both in the western society and in the Islamic societies.

Which is odd since presumably predominently Islamic societies have more Islam than non-Islamic societies, yet by any objective standard (the UN's Human Developement Index could be taken as one), they are the societies with most problems.

the whole world turns to atheism (which is a religion in itself)

Ah, I haven't heard that moronic cliche in a long time; I thought even fundamentalists like yourself had given up on using it.

A lack of belief is not a belief.

P.

af_thefragile

oceanclub wrote: »

Which is odd since presumably predominently Islamic societies have more Islam than non-Islamic societies, yet by any objective standard (the UN's Human Developement Index could be taken as one), they are the societies with most problems.

Ah, I haven't heard that moronic cliche in a long time; I thought even fundamentalists like yourself had given up on using it.

A lack of belief is not a belief.

P.

You can't prove Islamic societies have more problems than say USA or UK.
And also you again fail to keep taking into account the lack of wealth and predominantly education in the more poorer of the Islamic nations.
Compared to say somewhere like Columbia or Kenya, Egypt and Lebanon are doing much better.


Firstly, i'm anything but a fundamentalist (even if that sorta term actually makes any sense). If you read some of my other posts in here.

Oh and sorry to break your bubble but a lack of belief is a belief indeed. You are BELIEVING there is no God. Yes, sorry thats a belief no matter how much you guys try to sound scientifically intellectual. You can't prove there is no God. That is a fact. You can deny God but you can't disprove him. The human intellect has not reached a level yet, and will never reach a level where it can disprove the existence of God. But then thats a different debate. Which if you want, i'll be glad to discuss with you somewhere else. I've got a fairly decent knowledge of physics and mathematics too.

To end the "west", screw that, the whole world has equal amount of problems. That human development index only is an indicator of how wealthy people are in a country. Thats it. Its not an indicator of the amount of problems faced by different countries. You can't say Islamic countries are having more problems than "western" countries while there is a huge increase in knife crime and overall violence over here too. There are problems everywhere. You can't blame religion or the lack of one for the cause of all the problems.

oceanclub

af_thefragile wrote: »

You can't prove Islamic societies have more problems than say USA or UK.

You're the one claiming that Islam is the solution to society's problems, so the onus is on you to prove it.

Oh and sorry to break your bubble but a lack of belief is a belief indeed. You are BELIEVING there is no God.

No - I don't believe there is a God. This is no more a religion than my not believing in pink fairies at the bottom of my garden, or not believing that you are the Messiah.

You can't prove there is no God. That is a fact.

Very true. But the onus isn't on me to prove it. You can't prove there are no invisible pink fairies at the bottom of my garden.

That human development index only is an indicator of how wealthy people are in a country.

How about you try reading up what the Human Development Index actually is:

The Human Development Index (HDI) is an index combining normalized measures of life expectancy, literacy, educational attainment, and GDP per capita for countries worldwide.

Or does having God on your side preclude you from having to base your arguments on facts?

P.

af_thefragile

Oh thank you for reminding me what HDI is.
I must have had forgotten!

Oh and where does it mention the level of violence and crime??
And also isn't literacy and educational attainment not directly related to violence and crime? And why is it that the wealthiest and most developed countries make it to the top of the list...?
I bet its the lack of religion!!
Also wonder why USA being 15th on the list and UK being 21th still have such high rates of crime... But gang shootings and knife crimes aren't problems... right?
Its all about the women's rights! Bring in the feminists!!

And yeah, you've been reading too many Richard Dawkin's books. Pink fairy...:rolleyes:
If only all arguments could be based on pink fairies and the spaghetti monster!
Can we talk some science here?

oceanclub

af_thefragile wrote: »

Oh thank you for reminding me what HDI is.
I must have had forgotten!

Oh and where does it mention the level of violence and crime??

It doesn't. So, you come up with a list of countries indexed by crime rates, and then we can discuss it.

And also isn't literacy and educational attainment not directly related to violence and crime?

Sorry, is that a question or a statement? If it's a question, my answer is "eh?". If it's a statement, please show me the relevant survey/statistics.

And why is it that the wealthiest and most developed countries make it to the top of the list...?

Possibly because that the more literate and well educated society is, the more successful its citizens become? Just a wild stab in the dark there.

I bet its the lack of religion!!

Actually, you'll find that a number of countries in that top 10 are religious by international standards. You seem to think that because I'm an atheist, I consider all religion to be bad. This is not the case.

Its all about the women's rights! Bring in the feminists!!

Yeah, those damn women, man. I bet they're always getting you down and telling you what to do, eh? Wish it was the old days when you could order them around.

P.

af_thefragile

Well, why don't you find me the statistics for crime and violence as you seem to be the one worried about it more.

Yes, it was a statement cuz its bloody damn true. Why is there more crime in the ghettos and less developed areas of the town? I bet its got nothing to do with education. You don't need a survey to explain that to you.

Again you've gone back to literacy and education. Where does that come from? Wealth and infrastructure i presume.

Yeah, religion plays a very important aspect in the development of all those top countries right? Oh wait, does that mean Islam is holding back all the less developed nations and its got nothing to do with their lack of infrastructure and resources.
Kuwait and UAE seem to be doing fairly well for their size and location. I wonder what the reason of that is...

And thank you. I've gotten bored of typing the same things over and over again. Please go back and read mine and other people's posts if you wanna continue on debating.

DinoBot

af_thefragile wrote: »

Y

Oh and sorry to break your bubble but a lack of belief is a belief indeed. You are BELIEVING there is no God. Yes, sorry thats a belief no matter how much you guys try to sound scientifically intellectual. You can't prove there is no God. That is a fact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Avatars_of_Vishnu.jpg

Is your lack of belief in Lord Khrisna a belief. You are BELIEVING Khrisna is not a god. Can you prove it is not in Khrisna who we all should worship and not your god ?

What is you lask of belief in Khrisna called ?

merrionsq

af_thefragile wrote: »

^looks like you're getting it! :pac:

Yes, Islam doesn't want women to go around flaunting their bodies cuz they'll end up being treated like objects of flesh and sexual desire.
You don't get weird, sweaty men getting all crossed eyed over you. You don't get women being pressured into the pictures of the society where they start developing certain health disorders to fit in the perfect frame.
You don't get women competing with each other to attract the most attention.
And you don't end up getting treated like trash by your lousy boyfriend, the one you hooked up with on friday night in that drunken mess.
And so you wouldn't hear stories of celebrities getting drugged out and then ending in and out of rehab.

All that is cuz of society's pressures on women to be this perfect mantel of flesh and desire. Where anything less than perfect seems to be looked down on and rejected. Where they're being forced to alter their appearance every morning to fit into the perfect scene and to avoid hearing "what happened to your face?!". And you people say Islam puts women under pressure!

You seem to be suggesting that women should convert to Islam or accept their fate as drunken slappers, at the mercy of abusive men.

As someone who considers themselves moderate, and who is clearly educated and computer literate (to be posting on websites), its shocking how low an opinion you have of the rest of the population who are not Muslim. It's an almost medieval dichotomy of having to be "us" or "them". It put a lots of history's major injustices into perspective. Once one group of people start to think of themselves as being superior to other groups, it much easier to justify treating them worse.

aidan24326

Zanza wrote: »

Anyway, all in all, islam protected women by getting covered so that they won't be like a sex object. We all know that women are the most beautiful creature on earth *innocent look*; men 'like' women pretty fast for their attractiveness, so beside protecting women, it ease up the attractiveness part for the men (if you ever saw 40 Days & 40 Nights you might understand what I mean).

Utter nonsense. Sad sad nonsense.

af_thefragile wrote: »

You can't prove there is no God. That is a fact. You can deny God but you can't disprove him.

The onus of proof is on he who makes the positive assertion. You say there is a god. You prove it. I don't have to prove anything, there is no evidence whatsoever for the existence of a supernatural god, and so I dismiss the idea as delusion/fantasy. Not one single tiny shred of evidence, ever. There you go. That's my 'proof'. What's yours?

The human intellect has not reached a level yet, and will never reach a level where it can disprove the existence of God.

The concept of god is so ill-defined that it is by it's nature undisprovable. But like I said, the onus of proof is on those who say god exists.

You can't blame religion or the lack of one for the cause of all the problems.

I don't believe anyone ever has.

af_thefragile wrote: »

Why is there more crime in the ghettos and less developed areas of the town? I bet its got nothing to do with education. You don't need a survey to explain that to you.

Well I'll bet you it has a fair bit to do with education, or more specifically the lack of it.

Hobbes

I haven't read the whole thread but I will say keep it civil and read the forum charter.

Yusuf Mirza

Muslims should remember that unbelievers should only be given the message of Islam and after that it is between them and Allah. We are not to continue to preach to them unless they come to us for more information. We do not have to, being secure in our faith have to prove anything. Let them go in their own direction.