Penalty points to be expanded

Our man in Havana

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1116/penaltypoints.html

Penalty points system to be expanded

16 November 2005 16:25
The Minister for Transport has announced plans to extend the penalty points system.

Martin Cullen told a Joint Oireachtas Committee that the expanded system would be ready for implementation in the New Year.

Offences in the expanded system would include failure to obey traffic lights, dangerous overtaking and crossing a white line.

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However, the Garda Representative Association said it is not aware of the minister's plans.

AMurphy

So what's new. Nobody is ever aware of the NRA/Ministers plan or plans until they get the ticket in the mail.
Advertizing the facts or change in facts is never considered a requirement in the implementation plan.

bmoferrall

...and the minister has consulted with Pricey-Waterdowndrain-Coopers on the feasibility of their super-duper TURBOPULSE system :eek:

Seth Brundle

How exactly is 'crossing a white line' defined?
How exactly is 'dangerous overtaking' defined?
Or are they both dependent on the opinion/mood/career ambition/etc. of the garda who catches the driver?

ambro25

kbannon wrote:

How exactly is 'crossing a white line' defined?

Pretty self-explicit. But difficult to prove objectively unless video evidence or Garda on the scene when it happened.

kbannon wrote:

How exactly is 'dangerous overtaking' defined?

Again self-explicit. But again difficult to prove objectively unless video evidence or Garda on the scene when it happened. I'd say the "dangerous" component would be assessed either (i) if there's been a crash resulting from an overtaking manoeuvre (e.g. below brow of hill) or (ii) if an oncoming driver / overtaken drivere have had to take 'evasive action' to avert a crash...

kbannon wrote:

Or are they both dependent on the opinion/mood/career ambition/etc. of the garda who catches the driver?

Hell yeah - when haven't they ?!?

Genghis

kbannon wrote:

How exactly is 'crossing a white line' defined?
How exactly is 'dangerous overtaking' defined?
Or are they both dependent on the opinion/mood/career ambition/etc. of the garda who catches the driver?

I take your point on the dangerous driving thing, but crossing a continuous white line is fairly objective. Prooving either could be a difficulty in the case where the point are appealed, you might need two Gardai as witnesses?

Seth Brundle

ambro25 wrote:

Pretty self-explicit. But difficult to prove objectively unless video evidence or Garda on the scene when it happened.

But by that logic then any movement across a white line is punishable, including overtaking a cyclist and leaving sufficient and safe clearance.

ambro25 wrote:

Again self-explicit. But again difficult to prove objectively unless video evidence or Garda on the scene when it happened. I'd say the "dangerous" component would be assessed either (i) if there's been a crash resulting from an overtaking manoeuvre (e.g. below brow of hill) or (ii) if an oncoming driver / overtaken drivere have had to take 'evasive action' to avert a crash...

But again this is all just one persons opinion and a perfectly safe manouvre could be viewed as dangerous by some overtakees. Would the overtakee have to call the gardai and complain about the offence?

BrianD3

The ROTR are pretty clear on crossing continuous white lines. But like everything in ireland it's not really that simple in reality. First of all, there are countless stretches of road marked with continuous white lines where there is plenty of visibility and no hazards for overtaking. There are countless other stretches marked with broken white lines where it would be suicidal to attempt an overtake :rolleyes:

Secondly, parking regulations are never enforced. Eg if some eejit plonks his car on a stretch of road with a continuous white line forcing other traffic to perform a dangerous maneouvre to get around him, who's going to be prosecuted.

Thirdly, there's a helluva lot of slow moving machiney being driven on the roads, obstructing other traffic, no lights at night, spreading muck all over the place etc. The other day I was one of 20 cars stuck behind a tractor and trailer crawling along at <10 mph. If a safe overtaking opportunity presented itself which involved me putting two or four wheels across a continuous white line then realistically I'm going to take it and I would be disappointed with a Garda who decided to give me penalty points for it.

Atomic Pineapple

I doubt this will be enforced too much to be honest, its just too hard to prove, maybe cameras at traffic lights could be a possibility and one i wouldnt object to some people go through the red light so late its scary.

But enforcing the overtaking on white lines would be near impossible, wouldnt they need witness's and and a garda to see it to prove it or video evidence?

ambro25

kbannon wrote:

But by that logic then any movement across a white line is punishable, including overtaking a cyclist and leaving sufficient and safe clearance.

Yep

But note that the logic is, as I have stated, highly subjective: prosecution or not will hinge on a Gardai exhibiting common sense ('bigger fish to fry') or being pedantic ('down to the Letter of the Law, period'), with variations therebetween.

kbannon wrote:

But again this is all just one persons opinion and a perfectly safe manouvre could be viewed as dangerous by some overtakees. Would the overtakee have to call the gardai and complain about the offence?

Same again, to an extent (and highly likely to fall into the "his/her word against mine" kind of argument time and again, and a nuisance for all involved, really, i.e. Courts/Gardai/subject to the complaint)

Note also that I'm only posting Devil's Advocate comments, here. I am reasonably certain that if such measures are becoming enforceable, there will eventually be numerous posts in this here Forum about abuses of the system in both ways: Forumites hard-done-by because a Granny doing 40mph on an N-road was overtaken @ 60 and reported them, and Forumites reporting Gardai deciding to leave them be after being subjected to the exact same situation... facts and degrees, as movable as ever

BrianD3

ambro25 wrote:

Yep
But note that the logic is, as I have stated, highly subjective: prosecution or not will hinge on a Gardai exhibiting common sense ('bigger fish to fry') or being pedantic ('down to the Letter of the Law, period'), with variations therebetween.

How about this scenario:

-All over Ireland, double continuous white lines start appearing on 2 mile straights on N roads with perfect visibility
-Gardai are instructed to sit at one end of these straights observing and pulling over drivers who overtake across the white line
-No discretion on the part of the Gardai will be allowed
-Anyone caught on the wrong side of the line will get 2 points on the spot or 4 if they decide to go to court to challenge it
-The authorities will then be able to generate statistic for the number of tickets issued showing how much is being done to combat road deaths

Sound familiar? :rolleyes:

ambro25

BrianD3 wrote:

Sound familiar? :rolleyes:

Eeeee... Nooo, of course not your Honour, I swear