Kevin Nolan to declare for Ireland

~Rebel~

All im saying is that maybe theres some slight chance that on appeal or something he can become eligible, again, why would Staunton be chasing after him if not?! If it were so clear cut i doubt so much time would be wasted by both Staunton and his team, not to mention the media if someone could just say "oh no its impossible - end of story"

Its in the media yet again today for gods sake
http://home.skysports.com/list.asp?hlid=375463&CPID=8&clid=&lid=2&title=Nolan+hints+at+Irish+interest

Davey Devil

The media try and create stories out of nothing all the time, it's what they do. Staunton is just chancing his arm. I haven't seen many concreate quotes from Steve on the matter but the ones I have contain alot of if's and but's.

I'm starting to think rules and regulations mean nothing to people. They are there in black and white. What about and appeal you say? I love the way people latch on to that great right we have to appeal. Samual appealed.

Result: Facts have not changed and he still can't play.

~Rebel~

Its not always as black and white as you may say though, eg. Liverpool appealed against what were very clear black and white rules, yet still played in the champions league this year. Again Im just saying there may be a possibility thats all. Just a possibiliy.

Davey Devil

You're an optimist, I'll give you that.

Jivin Turkey

Nelly you are full of crap.

Firstly you say this is Nolan's first full season in the team at Bolton, next thing he has been "crying for a place in the England squad for three years".

You defend Matt Holland, a player who was caught singing THE ENGLISH NATIONAL ANTHEM!

You're such a patriot that you would turn you back on the team if Nolan (if he were eligible) were to play? I hear Michael Collins moving over in his grave.

You use the excuse that at 16, you didn't understand what was going on in the WC. I find that hard to believe to be honest. It was common knowledge to everyone that half of Charlton's side were English. Never hear any of them speak? Regardless, I assume you don't consider yourself too young now. So I also assume you disregard and distance yourself from all memories of the achievements of this Irish team. Something tells me not.

I'm sure you will respond to this post in your usual manner. Without responding to any of the points I have raised. In a big block of blanket text, particularly leaving out the point about the 90-94 sides, which PSI has already asked you to answer three or four times.

PSI has totally pawned you, and the thought of you comparing his posts to that of a five year old is hilarious, particularly as his are clear and concise, while yours hurt my eyes a little.

astrofool

Anyone remember the 'Irish' team in Dave Basset: England Manager?

Dub13

astrofool wrote:

Anyone remember the 'Irish' team in Dave Basset: England Manager?

LOL....I had forgotten about that,the English "B" team.

mike65

This should be a no brainer - if Nolan has to think about which team he wants to play for he should'nt be selected and if he plays for one and then tries to jump ship simply for personal glory then he should be kicked up the arse.

Mike.

GuanYin

Lemlin wrote:

Now, for your points here. Nolan has openly said he'd choose England over Ireland, and that it is his dream to play for England. I don't remember Andy Townsend, John Aldo or Mick McCarthy doing the like. I remember Clinto Morrision doing it but hopefully we won't have need for him soon with Doyle and Elliott. Ray Houghton even picked Ireland over his native Scotland, as did Aidan McGeady.

Well your memory is a bit shaded then. BOTH Aldo and Townsend stated that they got fed up waiting for an England call up. Aldo was in his late 20's (27 afair) and felt he'd missed the boat whereas Townend had been vetted by England and overlooked. Both admit in autobiographies that they chose Ireland after being overlooked by England.

As for Houghton. Houghton has stated (again in interview and autobiographical works) that the choice between an Irish team going to a championship and a rebuilding Scotland team was a "no brainer".

So lets take some perspective on who we look at fondly and who we dismiss. Had England come in for Townsend or Aldo, they wouldn't be playing for Ireland (Graham Taylor rates overlooking Townsend as the the biggest loss of an English player of that generation) and if we hadn't had a major finals, or moreso, if Scotland had been going too, then we wouldn't have had Houghton either.

Lemlin

psi wrote:

Well your memory is a bit shaded then. BOTH Aldo and Townsend stated that they got fed up waiting for an England call up. Aldo was in his late 20's (27 afair) and felt he'd missed the boat whereas Townend had been vetted by England and overlooked. Both admit in autobiographies that they chose Ireland after being overlooked by England.

As for Houghton. Houghton has stated (again in interview and autobiographical works) that the choice between an Irish team going to a championship and a rebuilding Scotland team was a "no brainer".

So lets take some perspective on who we look at fondly and who we dismiss. Had England come in for Townsend or Aldo, they wouldn't be playing for Ireland (Graham Taylor rates overlooking Townsend as the the biggest loss of an English player of that generation) and if we hadn't had a major finals, or moreso, if Scotland had been going too, then we wouldn't have had Houghton either.

As pointed out, did Aldo, Houghton or Townsend, openly reveal before playing for Ireland that their dream was to play for England? Perhaps they did get fed up waiting for the call but they certainly didn't parade around before they were in international contention shouting about how they dreamed of playing for England.

Like I said, we'll lose the shred of dignity we have left in the Irish team if Nolan is accepted now. If he'd kept his mouth shut, I wouldn't mind but he's openly talked about how he'd choose England over Ireland. We shouldn't take another player like that after the Morrisson fiasco.

Can you imagine what it'd do to dressing room morale? Would you like to tell Steven or Andy Reid that they're not starting, after years of Irish service, because Nolan is, a man who wanted to play for England not so long ago. Can you imagine what it'd do to the younger players who've worked up through schoolboy and U21 etc?

blu_sonic

But past matters aside, I (as does many people here) feel Nolan putting us down as second choice is an insult and hence wouldn't like to see him pull on the green, he's not even that good of a player for us to beg him to play for us.

Make no mistake about it we are begging

GuanYin

Lemlin wrote:

As pointed out, did Aldo, Houghton or Townsend, openly reveal before playing for Ireland that their dream was to play for England? Perhaps they did get fed up waiting for the call but they certainly didn't parade around before they were in international contention shouting about how they dreamed of playing for England.

Well lets be honest, it was a different set up then. For starters, Sky Sports didn't exist in the "in your face, we want a sound-bite every 30 seconds" format.

Townsend was vetted for the England cap and I do remember articles talking about his England chances. Did he talk about his dream to play for England? Maybe, the big difference was that either way noone would be around to report it.

Aldo did have England aspirations so I'd imagine he did.

Like I said, we'll lose the shred of dignity we have left in the Irish team if Nolan is accepted now. If he'd kept his mouth shut, I wouldn't mind but he's openly talked about how he'd choose England over Ireland. We shouldn't take another player like that after the Morrisson fiasco.

Can you imagine what it'd do to dressing room morale? Would you like to tell Steven or Andy Reid that they're not starting, after years of Irish service, because Nolan is, a man who wanted to play for England not so long ago. Can you imagine what it'd do to the younger players who've worked up through schoolboy and U21 etc?

Oh come on, lets be realistic, no matter how good you are in football, there is ALWAYS the chance that the manager will buy in a better player in your position. At international level it is no different. Its a squad game, not even a team game, not and certainly not an individuals game. If Nolan was best for the team, if he hadded a dimension that we don't have then why shouldn't he come in. Because as much as you think he would be exploiting us for an international career, we would be exploiting him just as much for his talents.

Lemlin

Well lets be honest, it was a different set up then. For starters, Sky Sports didn't exist in the "in your face, we want a sound-bite every 30 seconds" format.

Townsend was vetted for the England cap and I do remember articles talking about his England chances. Did he talk about his dream to play for England? Maybe, the big difference was that either way noone would be around to report it.

Aldo did have England aspirations so I'd imagine he did.

You can imagine alot of things. Show me some proof and I'll address your point. Until then, Aldo and Townsend IMO have never come close to the admissions of Nolan. Your post is full of terms like "maybe" and "I'd imagine". I could say that I'd imagine maybe Ronaldo has an Irish granny and would love to play for Ireland. Doesn't make it a very concrete argument, does it?

Originally posted by psi
Oh come on, lets be realistic, no matter how good you are in football, there is ALWAYS the chance that the manager will buy in a better player in your position. At international level it is no different. Its a squad game, not even a team game, not and certainly not an individuals game. If Nolan was best for the team, if he hadded a dimension that we don't have then why shouldn't he come in. Because as much as you think he would be exploiting us for an international career, we would be exploiting him just as much for his talents.

Yes, let's be realistic, this is INTERNATIONAL football. The manager can't buy players so it is different. Also, the whole point of international football is that you are playing for the pride of your country, a country that you have passion to play for. Nolan has openly stated his passion lies with the English team.

Young players like O'Brien and Ireland (despite his falling out with Kerr) have played for Ireland since underage level and it would be a kick in the teeth for them IMO to see a player like Nolan, who would prefer to play for England, waltz in and take a position ahead of them.

GuanYin

Lemlin wrote:

You can imagine alot of things. Show me some proof and I'll address your point. Until then, Aldo and Townsend IMO have never come close to the admissions of Nolan. Your post is full of terms like "maybe" and "I'd imagine". I could say that I'd imagine maybe Ronaldo has an Irish granny and would love to play for Ireland. Doesn't make it a very concrete argument, does it?

Well I can say that Townsend was talked about in terms of an England cap before he ever got capped for Ireland.
If you read his autobiographical works you'll see that.

I'm sure you're well aware that I won't be able to come up with an internet source that old, because it pre-dates all newspaper online archives, so if you're going to use "no source" as an excuse then thats just a cop out on your part.

There are plenty of references online if you google showing Aldridge saying that he was "fed up waiting for an england call" and more recently when his eligability to play for Ireland was questioned his rebuke was that he "could have held out for an England call up" and "didn't regret declaring for Ireland".

At first glance that looks patriotic, but if you really look at the wording, its implies, to some degree, that Ireland would be a more regretful choice over England.

Yes, let's be realistic, this is INTERNATIONAL football. The manager can't buy players so it is different. Also, the whole point of international football is that you are playing for the pride of your country, a country that you have passion to play for. Nolan has openly stated his passion lies with the English team.

No offence, but that is naive to some degree. While there is certainly pride in playing for your country for many many players (including French Internationals, former English Internationals etc etc) International football is a career advancement. As, Aldridge, Houghton, McAteer, Babb, Connolly and indeed, Robbie Keane have shown, a few international games can get you a big club move. True, there are players who are 100% proud of their country, but usually you find that in these cases, there is no question whatsoever about who these people *could* play for. With the exception of Ryan Giggs, most of the Welsh players, for example, play for Wales because they aren't good enough to play for England.

Young players like O'Brien and Ireland (despite his falling out with Kerr) have played for Ireland since underage level and it would be a kick in the teeth for them IMO to see a player like Nolan, who would prefer to play for England, waltz in and take a position ahead of them.

It might be, but its a realism of football that its a team game. Its about the best players coming through. If you play ever U18, U19 and U21 game for your country, but never get past a League 1 club, do you realistically expect to be picked over someone playing premiership football who declares? No, the manager will pick the player that wins the games, because his job is on the line.

No O'Brien and Ireland are fine players and will be fine Irish players in time to come. But right now, with the EC's in view? Nolan is a far far better prospect and if he declared, I' think he should be played. The problem arises if he gets a game and THEN doesn't give 100%. Or if he doesn't answer a call up yo play for his country for a friendly or the like - it has been argued by many that Irish born patriots such as Roy Keane are guilty of that, but noone is suggesting that he should have been booted out over that.

Ironically, thats the precise reason that Charlton, an English man with NO patriotic ties to Ireland, limited the number of appearances that O'Leary, an Irish man through and through (he still has a thick Dub accent) got for Ireland.

p.pete

http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/men/sport/football/s/209/209566_a_rest_makes_kev_his_best.html

Comments from Kevin Nolan regarding call-up. Says he's not bothered by not being called up by England and has been concentrating on playing for Bolton.

Lemlin

Originally posted by psi
Well I can say that Townsend was talked about in terms of an England cap before he ever got capped for Ireland.
If you read his autobiographical works you'll see that.

I'm sure you're well aware that I won't be able to come up with an internet source that old, because it pre-dates all newspaper online archives, so if you're going to use "no source" as an excuse then thats just a cop out on your part.

There are plenty of references online if you google showing Aldridge saying that he was "fed up waiting for an england call" and more recently when his eligability to play for Ireland was questioned his rebuke was that he "could have held out for an England call up" and "didn't regret declaring for Ireland".

At first glance that looks patriotic, but if you really look at the wording, its implies, to some degree, that Ireland would be a more regretful choice over England.

A search on "John Aldridge fed up waiting for England call" - http://www.google.ie/search?q=John+Aldridge+fed+up+waiting+for+England+call&hl=en&lr=&start=10&sa=N

Absolutely nothing there to back up what you've talked about. You also say Townsend was talked about for an England cap. Again, I'll aks the question, did he do this talking himself and say that he dreamt of playing for England?

Yes, and I could also imply it means that Aldo pledged his heart to Ireland and never even thought of playing for England That's the thing about implications, you can never be sure.

Could I have a few hard facts here please.

Originally posted by psi
No offence, but that is naive to some degree. While there is certainly pride in playing for your country for many many players (including French Internationals, former English Internationals etc etc) International football is a career advancement. As, Aldridge, Houghton, McAteer, Babb, Connolly and indeed, Robbie Keane have shown, a few international games can get you a big club move. True, there are players who are 100% proud of their country, but usually you find that in these cases, there is no question whatsoever about who these people *could* play for. With the exception of Ryan Giggs, most of the Welsh players, for example, play for Wales because they aren't good enough to play for England.

So Robbie Savage and Craig Bellamy are putting on those Welsh accents are they?

Originally posted by psi
It might be, but its a realism of football that its a team game. Its about the best players coming through. If you play ever U18, U19 and U21 game for your country, but never get past a League 1 club, do you realistically expect to be picked over someone playing premiership football who declares? No, the manager will pick the player that wins the games, because his job is on the line.

No O'Brien and Ireland are fine players and will be fine Irish players in time to come. But right now, with the EC's in view? Nolan is a far far better prospect and if he declared, I' think he should be played. The problem arises if he gets a game and THEN doesn't give 100%. Or if he doesn't answer a call up yo play for his country for a friendly or the like - it has been argued by many that Irish born patriots such as Roy Keane are guilty of that, but noone is suggesting that he should have been booted out over that.

Ironically, thats the precise reason that Charlton, an English man with NO patriotic ties to Ireland, limited the number of appearances that O'Leary, an Irish man through and through (he still has a thick Dub accent) got for Ireland.

I would of liked to see Nolan in the Irish team but the fact that he has come out and said that his heart lies in playing for another nation would make a mockery of our team. We're already known as a team full of English rejects as it is, do we really want to add more fuel to that notion?

By the way, all the players that I mentioned are current Premiership players. So none of them need to worry about getting past League 1.

~Rebel~

Lemlin wrote:

Absolutely nothing there to back up what you've talked about. You also say Townsend was talked about for an England cap. Again, I'll aks the question, did he do this talking himself and say that he dreamt of playing for England?

Yes, and I could also imply it means that Aldo pledged his heart to Ireland and never even thought of playing for England That's the thing about implications, you can never be sure.

Could I have a few hard facts here please.

Not to get all involved and embroiled in this clash of opinions, but on that note, has anyone got any proof or examples of Nolan "shouting for the past 3 years to be included in the england squad"? Not just that he would be honoured by a call up or something but someplace where he has actually said he's dying to play for england and would do anything to make it happen.

I just ask because i think hes being very very unfairly judged here, i even found myself getting caught up in it until i stopped and thought about it. Nolan himself seems quite reserved and respectfull about the whole thing, its Allyrdice thats been shouting for his inclusion from the rooftops. A bit of fairness here perhaps..

GuanYin

Lemlin wrote:

A search on "John Aldridge fed up waiting for England call" - http://www.google.ie/search?q=John+Aldridge+fed+up+waiting+for+England+call&hl=en&lr=&start=10&sa=N

Didn't look very hard.

Link

Aldridge was already 28 and admitted at the time that he had just become "tired of waiting to see if England will have a look at me."

Absolutely nothing there to back up what you've talked about.

I'm sure you'll want to cast doubt on that link, eh?

You also say Townsend was talked about for an England cap. Again, I'll aks the question, did he do this talking himself and say that he dreamt of playing for England?

Townsend on UTV has several times referred to himself as English or British.

And he mentions it in his autobiography. As I mentioned before, this all predates widespread internet usage so its not like the papers of the day will have online archives.

Yes, and I could also imply it means that Aldo pledged his heart to Ireland and never even thought of playing for England That's the thing about implications, you can never be sure.

Well have a look at the link above and tell me if you still read it the same way.

Could I have a few hard facts here please.

Read the autobiographies.

So Robbie Savage and Craig Bellamy are putting on those Welsh accents are they?

They wouldn't get into the England team, which was provision two of my comment.

I would of liked to see Nolan in the Irish team but the fact that he has come out and said that his heart lies in playing for another nation would make a mockery of our team. We're already known as a team full of English rejects as it is, do we really want to add more fuel to that notion?

Can you show me a direct attributed quote? Did he say "I want to play for England and only England?"

OR did he say, every footballer in England dreams of playing for England, or some such ambigious statement?

Lemlin

I'm not a member of Unison. Perhaps you could post the text.

WhiteWashMan

id love to see nolan play for ireland
i think hes a super player, and one that couild defiantely strengthen the team.