First middle of town Starbucks - opinions?

billyblanks

I believe starbucks are great places for people who are not into coffee. I have to say I really like the style/feel of their cafes but their coffee is awful. If you fill your coffee cup with syrup and cream it doesn't really matter how bad the coffee is...you wont taste it. My local coffee shop buy all their coffee in Ireland, it is freshly roasted, they put a little effort into making it and it is far superior to Starbucks coffee. This is something that Starbucks can never do.

I Think some people will suffer with Starbucks coming to Ireland but I'm hoping it will help to improve the quality of coffee served by its smaller competitors.

Alun

Absolutely. I like my coffee black and strong with just a smidgin of sugar ... no whipped cream, frothy milk, disgusting sickly sweet syrups, spices or whatever else it appears to be fashionable to put in the stuff nowadays. It's becoming increasingly difficult to find such a thing.

eoge

billyblanks wrote:

I believe starbucks are great places for people who are not into coffee. I have to say I really like the style/feel of their cafes but their coffee is awful. If you fill your coffee cup with syrup and cream it doesn't really matter how bad the coffee is...you wont taste it. My local coffee shop buy all their coffee in Ireland, it is freshly roasted, they put a little effort into making it and it is far superior to Starbucks coffee. This is something that Starbucks can never do.

I Think some people will suffer with Starbucks coming to Ireland but I'm hoping it will help to improve the quality of coffee served by its smaller competitors.

Where is your local coffee shop? I know close to nothing about coffee and would like to know what good coffee tastes like.

Can anyone recommend a few places in town I can try for good coffee?

billyblanks

Passion, its in Dun Laoghaire. To be honest it is more the coffee than her skills that make it good. If you really want to try a good coffee go down to the temple bar market(on saturday), there is a guy there selling Freshly roasted coffee(day before), get him to make you a cup....its fantastic!!

this is the guy who supplies passion with their coffee....

billyblanks

btw They are called Ariosa coffee......

eoge

Thanks. I'll check out your man at the market.

Blisterman

Freelancer wrote:

Dude's got a point. Starbucks are so massive they're a force to be reckoned with internationaly and make a huge impact on bean prices.

The fact that in the states anyway they offer you the choice of either fair trade or non fair beans just highlights their hypocrisy;

"Would you like your half fat mochachinco vanilla latte with the blood of exploited workers or without"?

Essentially they're admitting that their aware that some of their coffee is produced by exploiting growers, and they don't mind this, but are aware you might do, and that ethical dollar is a growing marketplace and they want it.
QUOTE]

What proof do you have that their coffee is exploiting growers? Just because a product isn't Fair Trade Labelled, doesn't mean that the workers are being exploited. Fair Trade is a brand.

Freelancer

Blisterman wrote:

What proof do you have that their coffee is exploiting growers? Just because a product isn't Fair Trade Labelled, doesn't mean that the workers are being exploited. Fair Trade is a brand.

Fair trade isn't a brand its a philosophy. Any coffee already produced for starbucks could simply apply for the fairtrade label

from fairtrade.net wrote:

All products carrying the FAIRTRADE Mark meet standards set by the international body http://www.fairtrade.net/

I mean thats very clear if all starbucks coffee met the fairtrade standard then they'd the able to put the fairtrade label on all the coffee on their menu. No?

But they don't. Which would imply that most of their coffee cannot adhere to fairtrade standards.

I'd suggest that the very concept of having fair trade on the menu as an option means that that they're aware that the majority of their coffee made with exploiting their workers, they're just indifferent to changing practices to improve their workers lots, while mindful of the the allure of the green Euro.

The adding of fairtrade as an additional option to their menu would imply that they are now offering fair trade coffee ontop of the standard brands which aren't traded under such standards.

I mean if all their coffee is made without the exploitation of workers then they wouldn't need to add the fair trade coffee to their selection all their coffees would adhere to it, already?

But again I'm sure you have a valid point somewhere.

billyblanks

Freelancer wrote:

I'd suggest that the very concept of having fair trade on the menu as an option means that that they're aware that the majority of their coffee made with exploiting their workers, they're just indifferent to changing practices to improve their workers lots, while mindful of the the allure of the green Euro.

If they have it as a choice on the menu then their customers are also indifferent to "changing practices to improve their workers lot." If everybody asked for fair trade coffee then it would be the only choice on the menu!

"Give the customer what they want";)

Don't get me wrong here I am not a fan of Starbucks but I do live in the real world and I do realise they are a company out to make money. There are two problems with Fair Trade, 1 you are not guaranteed top quality coffee and 2. it is more expensive! The price of coffee has risen by about 20% in the last year or two and it is only going to get higher. I have heard that China are slowly becoming a coffee drinking nation, if this happens the price of coffee will rocket. If the price of coffee rises then the only people who benefit are the farmers.

Freelancer

billyblanks wrote:

If they have it as a choice on the menu then their customers are also indifferent to "changing practices to improve their workers lot." If everybody asked for fair trade coffee then it would be the only choice on the menu!

"Give the customer what they want";)

Fine but admitting that some of your produce is unethical, and offering an ethical alternative sends out the message

"Hey I know our coffee stink ethicaly, we don't care, you might so here is an alternative"

Don't get me wrong here I am not a fan of Starbucks but I do live in the real world and I do realise they are a company out to make money.

Very nice very patronising.

There are two problems with Fair Trade, 1 you are not guaranteed top quality coffee and 2. it is more expensive!

Okay lets deal with the points two fold.

How are you not guaranteed good coffee with fair trade over regular coffee?

I drink fair trade machu pichu medium roast south american coffee and to quote Erick Stolez in pulp fiction "It'll take the pepsi challenge with any of your amsterdam ****" Work have switched the coffee to fair trade organic recently, and no one has noticed the a drop in quality in coffee.

Yes it is slighty more expensive, but the difference is nigh on unnoticable. It's a few pence, is that really such a heavy price?

The price of coffee has risen by about 20% in the last year or two and it is only going to get higher. I have heard that China are slowly becoming a coffee drinking nation, if this happens the price of coffee will rocket. If the price of coffee rises then the only people who benefit are the farmers.

The only people? Thats laughably naive. The people who will benefit first will be the coffee sellers who, generally rarely pass on the benefits of a rise in coffee prices to their growers, but are quick to slash prices when to bottom falls out of the market.

While growers will eventually see some rise, theres a limit to the amount of coffee a small grower can grow, and what is more likely to happen is farmers growing other crops will switch to coffee, while new farmers will use brutal techniques to clear forests to grow more coffee. While the larger farmers will be able to take on more people and more land, a small community can only farm so much, hey they may even come the tempation to take children out of school to help grow. Now if theres a global slum, or some exceptional poor weather and crops are ruined, the farmers have no alternative, while the buyers get rich jacking up the price,

billyblanks

Ok.....I'm in work so this will have to be quick.

You say that Starbucks are unethical? but at least they are making the effort to sell fairtrade, you cant expect a company that size to change overnight. Fewer than two years ago there were no Fair-Trade certified coffees whatsoever available from outside Spanish-speaking Latin America in the American market. It's just not realistic to expect starbucks to only sell fair trade. look at other big coffee companys, Nestle, Kraft or Proctor and Camble who refuse to sell fair trade, they wont even negotiate, yet it doesnt seem to bother anybody.

you are just jumping on the starbucks bandwagon because they are an easy target.

As far as quality goes fair trade is not as good quality, thats a fact! I'm not saying they dont produce good quality, they do, but non-fair trade coffee has scored better in quality every year since fair trade coffee came in.

And for the record fair trade-certified cooperatives and small holders have still have problems of child labor, less pay for women, inadequate medical care, use of dangerous chemicals, and nonpayment of minimum wages. so its not all rosey for the fair trade farmers.

Ill be back to this after work......

Shabadu

Please continue this interesting debate, but bear in mind that one should attack the post, and not the poster.

billyblanks

Sorry....by "you" I meant people in general who attack starbucks for their coffee ethics not just freelancer.

bloody hell I need a coffee......

Beruthiel

crash_000 wrote:

I know a lot of people hate starbucks on principle

that would be me, as with McDo's, I will never darken their door

FX Meister

And that principle is what Beruth?

Freelancer

billyblanks wrote:

Ok.....I'm in work so this will have to be quick.

You say that Starbucks are unethical? but at least they are making the effort to sell fairtrade, you cant expect a company that size to change overnight.

That logic suggests starbucks is eventually going to become totally fair trade. They're not. They've made no attempt to suggest that this is the path they're heading towards, they merely offer fair trade coffee as an "alternative" my point still stands.

Fewer than two years ago there were no Fair-Trade certified coffees whatsoever available from outside Spanish-speaking Latin America in the American market. It's just not realistic to expect starbucks to only sell fair trade. look at other big coffee companys, Nestle, Kraft or Proctor and Camble who refuse to sell fair trade, they wont even negotiate, yet it doesnt seem to bother anybody.

It does bother me, Nestle's "alternative" fair trade brand is that most outrageous example.

you are just jumping on the starbucks bandwagon because they are an easy target.

No I'm not and I resent the slur that I am. And clearly you directed the above directly at me, and not in general, and thats a pathetic piece of back peddling on your part.

As far as quality goes fair trade is not as good quality, thats a fact! I'm not saying they dont produce good quality, they do, but non-fair trade coffee has scored better in quality every year since fair trade coffee came in.

So you're saying as quality goes fair trade is not as good quality, thats a fact! And then I'm not saying they dont produce good quality. Which is it?

If it's fact I'm sure you'll be able to furnish me with where that fact is published. Scored better where? By whom? Who were the judges?

You contradict yourself within the space of a sentence so I'm just dying to find out where you got that "fact" from.

air Trade Guatemalan Wins Coffee Review Supermarket Cupping
In a June 2003 Coffee Review article entitled "Pursuing Quality at the Supermarket," coffee quality guru Ken Davids reports on a blind cupping of coffees pulled from the shelves of supermarkets in New York City. The winner? Bucks County Coffee's Fair Trade Certified Organic Guatemalan, which scored an impressive 94. "This extraordinary coffee should seduce just about everyone," Davids writes in his review. The coffee, produced by the Asobagri farmers cooperative in Huehuetenango, is one of four Fair Trade Certified coffees

Awards like this?
http://www.transfairusa.org/content/email/buzz_july.htm

And for the record fair trade-certified cooperatives and small holders have still have problems of child labor, less pay for women, inadequate medical care, use of dangerous chemicals, and nonpayment of minimum wages. so its not all rosey for the fair trade farmers.

Ill be back to this after work......

Thats a bit rich and again I'm sure you'll be able to back up the above. A link would do nicely.

The fact is that fairtrade profits go back into the grows community funding schools and health care, and seeing as my coffee is certified organic I'm sure you'll be able to point me in the direction of what exactly are these dangerous chemicals they use.

Please you seem to be in the know do enlighten us.

billyblanks

B]That logic suggests starbucks is eventually going to become totally fair trade. They're not. They've made no attempt to suggest that this is the path they're heading towards, they merely offer fair trade coffee as an "alternative" my point still stands. [/B]
No you point doesnt still stand, Starbucks consume so much coffee that they are pushing up its price, Fair trade is still only a small part of the total amount of coffee produced......it is not realistic for starbucks to change to fair trade only at the moment. You obviously dont understand this point.


It does bother me, Nestle's "alternative" fair trade brand is that most outrageous example.

Ok, since you obviously feel so strong about nestle's products I'm sure you boycott them on principal?
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No I'm not and I resent the slur that I am. And clearly you directed the above directly at me, and not in general, and thats a pathetic piece of back peddling on your part.

Back Peddling??? are we reading the same thread?

What I said was by "you" I meant people in general who attack starbucks for their coffee ethics not just freelancer

PM me a definition of back peddling just in case I have a different meaning.

next.... So you're saying as quality goes fair trade is not as good quality, thats a fact! And then I'm not saying they dont produce good quality. Which is it?

Fairtrade = good, non fair trade = better. Simple enough for you? Fair trade can and do make good quality coffee, but on the whole non fair trade make BETTER Quality coffee.

air Trade Guatemalan Wins Coffee Review Supermarket Cupping
In a June 2003 Coffee Review article entitled "Pursuing Quality at the Supermarket," coffee quality guru Ken Davids reports on a blind cupping of coffees pulled from the shelves of supermarkets in New York City. The winner? Bucks County Coffee's Fair Trade Certified Organic Guatemalan, which scored an impressive 94. "This extraordinary coffee should seduce just about everyone," Davids writes in his review. The coffee, produced by the Asobagri farmers cooperative in Huehuetenango, is one of four Fair Trade Certified coffees

Supermarket coffee?? oh yeah right thats where all the coffee cupping is done. All the farmers from all over the world bring their coffee to Tesco to be judged.....ever hear of the cup of excellence?? http://www.cupofexcellence.org/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=148
These guys are who I listen to, not Tesco.

Thats a bit rich and again I'm sure you'll be able to back up the above. A link would do nicely.

Most of what I am saying is taken from. articles http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives/020703/020703a.htm


http://www.coffeereview.com/articles/print/93.cfm
On the other hand, an argument could be made using the same sources that Fair-Trade may not produce quite the percentage of truly exceptional coffees as generated by the larger world of non-Fair-Trade production. For example, 12.5% of the non-Fair-Trade coffees we reviewed in 2004 scored 90 or better, to 10.5% for Fair-Trade coffees. Not an enormous difference, certainly, but one that could be seen as reflected in this month's cupping, where several excellent Fair-Trade coffees appeared on the table, but none leapt off and rang the bell

not a massive difference but it proves my point.


The fact is that fairtrade profits go back into the grows community funding schools and health care, and seeing as my coffee is certified organic I'm sure you'll be able to point me in the direction of what exactly are these dangerous chemicals they use.
Please you seem to be in the know do enlighten us.

emmmmm.....Fair trade and organic are 2 different things. do you now feel enlightened?

I'm going to end on this. Despite my argument above I am in principal pro fair trade, and would like to eventually see all coffee fair trade. But at the moment it is not realistic to expect massive company's to switch just because it is "ethical right" do do so. As far as fair trade coffee goes there are other companys out there a lot worse than starbucks.

segadreamcast

Bravo sir. Some well argued points there - the kind of stuff you see on boards.ie all too rarely. Kudos indeed.

Binomate

To hell with starbucks, we need Dunkin' Doughnuts back.

segadreamcast

Too right. I still don't know if it'd work here. Maybe a few around Dublin...

Freelancer

billyblanks wrote:

No you point doesnt still stand, Starbucks consume so much coffee that they are pushing up its price, Fair trade is still only a small part of the total amount of coffee produced......it is not realistic for starbucks to change to fair trade only at the moment. You obviously dont understand this point.

No you started by claiming that it's the consumer's decision and starbucks are giving consumers the option, now it's this is just the beginning of a radical change. Pick and choose a postion billy. Is it okay to give the alternative option of fair trade or should that be the start of the change to remove all non fair trade coffee off the menu?

It does bother me, Nestle's "alternative" fair trade brand is that most outrageous example.

Ok, since you obviously feel so strong about nestle's products I'm sure you boycott them on principal?
NESTLE UK PRODUCT LIST

I am aware of that list, and do boycott all Nestle products. The inference is that once again you are more aware of the issue than I, a piece of arrogant assumption.

No I'm not and I resent the slur that I am. And clearly you directed the above directly at me, and not in general, and thats a pathetic piece of back peddling on your part.

Back Peddling??? are we reading the same thread?

You specifically directed a comment at me, when a mod challenged you on that assertion you backed down and made the claim that it was directed at people in general, despite the fact that the tense and the clause of the grammar of your statement was specifically directed at me. That'd be the backpeddling.

billybanks wrote:

What I said was by "you" I meant people in general who attack starbucks for their coffee ethics not just freelancer

No if you'd said at the start "you're the type..." you infact said;

billybanks wrote:

you are just jumping on the starbucks bandwagon because they are an easy target.

There were no inverted commas around the you (you said you, not "you")
And when challenged on it

billybanks wrote:

Sorry....by "you" I meant people in general who attack starbucks for their coffee ethics not just freelancer.

billybanks wrote:

PM me a definition of back peddling just in case I have a different meaning.

You've got a text book example of it up there mate.

Now onto the meat of the point.

billybanks wrote:

Fairtrade = good, non fair trade = better. Simple enough for you? Fair trade can and do make good quality coffee, but on the whole non fair trade make BETTER Quality coffee.

And this is really funny, And I take this from the article you point to support your "fact!"

coffeereview.com article posted by billybanks wrote:

Based on our ratings, the average score for Fair-Trade coffees reviewed in 2004 was 87.3, whereas the average for non-Fair-Trade certified coffees was 86.8. A half-point difference in favor of Fair-Trade may not be statistically significant, but it certainly dashes any claims that Fair-Trade coffees are in any way overall inferior to non-Fair-Trade.

I mean thats hoot and a half. Your article makes my case for me.

billybanks wrote:

Most of what I am saying is taken from. articles http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives/020703/020703a.htm

Firstly thats a single article which talks about how coffee prices are lowering, how badly coffee growers are treated it's a ringing endorsement of fairtrade.

And because it's so funny;

coffeereview.com article posted by billybanks wrote:

the average score for Fair-Trade coffees reviewed in 2004 was 87.3, whereas the average for non-Fair-Trade certified coffees was 86.8. A half-point difference in favor of Fair-Trade may not be statistically significant, but it certainly dashes any claims that Fair-Trade coffees are in any way overall inferior to non-Fair-Trade.

Again this is from your site to support your point , that fair trade coffee is inferior "fact!"
http://www.coffeereview.com/articles/print/93.cfm

I'd be curious to know what precentage of the coffee that scores higher than fair trade is cheaper seeing as your comment that set this all off was;

billybanks wrote:

There are two problems with Fair Trade, 1 you are not guaranteed top quality coffee and 2. it is more expensive!

billybanks wrote:

as quality goes fair trade is not as good quality, thats a fact!

You've started by saying fairtrade isn't as cheap and is actually inferior coffee, when challenged you present an article which shows that in general fair trade coffee is superior to oridinary coffee and doesn't go into details of the cost of the superior ordinary coffee.

Cheers mate you've made this easier for me.

me wrote:

The fact is that fairtrade profits go back into the grows community funding schools and health care, and seeing as my coffee is certified organic I'm sure you'll be able to point me in the direction of what exactly are these dangerous chemicals they use.

billybanks wrote:

Fair trade and organic are 2 different things. do you now feel enlightened?

You see you're suggesting that coffee I mentioned isn't organic or fairtrade. You claim dangerous chemical are used, when asked to prove this you try and bluster that I'm ignorant of the difference between fair trade and organic, which isn't the point.

I asked you to demostrate what was your evidence that fairtrade coffee isn't as ethical as we're lead to believe, and furthermore isn't organic, you return by suggesting I'm a idiot who doesn't understand the difference between fair trade and organic.

I'm sick of you trying to treat me like a moron, you've made a claim lets see you prove it. Because you've failed so spectacularly so far I think watching you dig yourself out of this hole will be worth a giggle.

Oh And your article doesn't offer any evidence to support your, frankly, libelous accusations. None whatsoever. It's a defence of fairtrade coffee.

Another Billybanks article supporting his claims wrote:

In its September report, Oxfam praises fair trade, and encourages large companies to buy more fair trade coffee. Yet Oxfam recognizes that fair trade isn’t enough to overcome the current crisis, and suggests additional steps to resolve the world’s coffee crisis. These include the destruction of $100 million worth of low-quality coffee already in Northern warehouses, a campaign to improve quality in producing countries, the reinvention of a guaranteed pricing structure, and a fund to support diversification away from coffee, especially in low-altitude areas where it’s difficult to grow good quality beans.

http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/ar...03/020703a.htm

You've made some clear and exact charges againist fair trade

billybanks wrote:

fair trade-certified cooperativeshave still have problems of child labor, less pay for women, inadequate medical care, use of dangerous chemicals, and nonpayment of minimum wages. so its not all rosey for the fair trade farmers.

When challenged to provide evidence to support these claim you present a series of articles which don't support your points.

In fact one of these one of those articles makes my case for me, while the other one goes no way towards proving your second set of claims, which are libelous. I refer you to McLibel, and while I don't believe that Fairtrade have a team of crack lawyers ready to sweep into action to sue yourself or boards.ie, I believe it's morally reprehensible to make such accusations, and when challenged, fling a couple of unrelated links in my direction and then;

I'm going to end on this.

run away.

Despite my argument above I am in principal pro fair trade, and would like to eventually see all coffee fair trade.

And yet you've sneered at the coffee as being inferior and over priced, and made a series of unsubstainated and libelous accusations aganist fair trade collectives? Oh yeah I can feel the love.......

But at the moment it is not realistic to expect massive company's to switch just because it is "ethical right" do do so. As far as fair trade coffee goes there are other companys out there a lot worse than starbucks.

I do like the commas around "ethical right" as if theres a moral grey area in paying workers a substandard wage and forcing them to work in inhuman conditions, that was "possibly" wrong or immoral

This is the last act of the defenceless position. Scurry off billyboy you lost.

billyblanks

Freelancer...... First of all take it easy, this is not an personal attack on you, although you seem to think it is. I reply to sarcasm with sarcasm.

second of all be careful what you type here, I can see you are angry over this but dint accuse me of

And yet you've sneered at the coffee as being inferior and over priced, and made a series of unsubstainated and libelous accusations aganist fair trade collectives? Oh yeah I can see the love.......

That is the sort of accusation that can get out of hand. Nothing I have said is Libelous and if you want to Say different there are other avenus we can take.


No you started by claiming that it's the consumer's decision and starbucks are giving consumers the option, now it's this is just the beginning, of a radical change. Pick and choose a postion billy. Is it okay to give an alternative or should that be the start of the change to remove non fair trade coffee off the menu?

I dint know where to begin with this.....you are grasping a straws, I'm not even too sure what you are trying to get at? Your argument makes no valid point.

You still have no answer to my question......How can Starbucks change to fairtrade coffee only when the supply is just not there? Simple answer please.

The back peddling issue, I am not going to argue this point. I'm not sure why it is such a big issue with you? how is it relative to Fairtrade coffee? once again I feel you are grasping at straws. and I will state again I was not back peddling.....end of story.

You've got a text book example of it up there mate.


WTF??? that makes no sense?


Originally Posted by coffeereview.com article posted by billybanks[/quote
Based on our ratings, the average score for Fair-Trade coffees reviewed in 2004 was 87.3, whereas the average for non-Fair-Trade certified coffees was 86.8. A half-point difference in favor of Fair-Trade may not be statistically significant, but it certainly dashes any claims that Fair-Trade coffees are in any way overall inferior to non-Fair-Trade.

I'm glad you got a hoot....and a half.

I got a hoot and a half out of this article......

On the other hand, an argument could be made using the same sources that Fair-Trade may not produce quite the percentage of truly exceptional coffees as generated by the larger world of non-Fair-Trade production. For example, 12.5% of the non-Fair-Trade coffees we reviewed in 2004 scored 90 or better, to 10.5% for Fair-Trade coffees. Not an enormous difference, certainly, but one that could be seen as reflected in this month's cupping, where several excellent Fair-Trade coffees appeared on the table, but none leapt off and rang the bell

Next


You see you're suggesting that my organic fair trade coffee isn't organic or fairtrade. You claim dangerous chemical are used, when asked to prove this you try and bluster that I'm ignorant of the difference between fair trade and organic, which isn't the point, I asked you to demostrate what was your evidence that fairtrade coffee breaches fair trade standards, and furthermore isn't organic, you return by suggesting I'm a idiot who doesn't understand the difference between fair trade and organic. I'm sick of you trying to treat me like a moron, you've made a claim lets see you prove it. Because you've failed so spectularly so far I think watching you dig yourself out of this hole will be a hoot.


OH MY GOD......am I talking to a child? are you foreign? do you have problems understanding English? I am amazed how you try to twist things. all you are trying to do there is hid ethe fact that you didn't/don't understand that fair trade coffee and organic are different.

I never suggested your ORGANIC fair trade coffee had any chemicals on it.

I quoted from an article say "Dangerous chemicals can be used on fair trade coffee" you replied with "and seeing as my coffee is certified organic I'm sure you'll be able to point me in the direction of what exactly are these dangerous chemicals they use."

Fair enough your fair trade ORGANIC coffee does not have any chemicals on it, but not all fair trade coffee is ORGANIC.


Do you not understand that organic and fair trade are different????


yes you can have an organic fare trade coffee but just because it is fair trade DOES NOT MEAN IT IS ORGANIC


This article might help you understand some of the problems with fair trade and point out the difference between Fair Trade and Organic. And yes I do realise it is pro fair trade, as am I! but it does highlight some problems.

http://www.ecomall.com/greenshopping/fairtradecoffee.htm

"As time goes on a search for fair trade coffee is more and more likely to turn up non-certified “fair trade” coffee, which is most likely just a marketing rouse to attract ethical customers. In a recent search of ebay for fair trade coffee 90% of the results were not third party certified, and upon further examination most looked very suspect."


You want me to prove that chemicals are used on some fair trade coffee? you prove they are not! I gave you a quote, they seem to be the word of God to you, or is only stuff you qoute relavent? ......do you want me to get on a plane fly to south America and hide in abush with a video camera?? I can only quote what I read.

You see Freelancer alot of these articles are written with an objective view, not a blinkered view......they point out the good and bad of both sides, obvioulsy a fogeigen concept to you.

run away.

Quote:
Despite my argument above I am in principal pro fair trade, and would like to eventually see all coffee fair trade.

once again it is like talking to a child, you obviously woke up one morning and decided "right everybody should sell fair trade coffee", got up out of bed, put your blinkers on and looked for a target.....starbucks.

There are 2 side to every argument, I can see both.

Scurry off billyboy you lost.

Lost what? was it a competition to have the most quotes? Maybe to have the biggest rant? once again you show your immature attitude to this discussion.

Ok.....back to the main point. You want starbucks to only serve fair trade coffee. I said it is not realistic to expect a company like starbucks to change overnight due to supply and quality issues. Plain and simple. you avoided this topic in all of your respones, you want it done now!! so what is your solution to the problem? I dint want quotes, I dint want twisted answers, I dint want a big long article arguing the ethical obligation of starbucks...just your answer the question?


My suggestion is to slowly change over time, introduce fare trade into their product range, as quality and supply improve and demand grows then they can begin to look at only selling fair trade. what is your suggestion?

This takes up a lot of time. So in future I will only answer questions relevant to starbucks selling fair trade coffee.

I apologise if this seems a little disjointed but I have been writing it on and off while working.

billyblanks

Freelancer wrote:

Fair trade isn't a brand its a philosophy.

Just for the record Freelancer, it is a brand.

Shabadu

Okay, this is obviously an emotive issue for you both. You have both put your points forward now, and I don't want to see it develop into a flame war.

I take issue with the claims that fair-trade coffee is more likely to be sub-par. Blue Earth organic fair trade coffee is amongst the nicest I've tasted. Itsabagel sell it by default. Though not strictly a coffee shop, they show that you can supply a thriving business with delicious all-natural and ethical coffee.

In my opinion, knowing that you are doing the right thing for people living on a subsistence wage is far more important than the percieved difference in quality.

Most baristas in Ireland burn the arse out of the coffee, destroying the oils and leaving a horrible small dark brown crema anyway, which is a far worse thing to happen to the coffee than a *tiny* difference in *some* bean quality which may not be noticed by most punters anyway.

That being said, that Blue Earth coffee is spot on.

billybanks wrote:

Just for the record Freelancer, it is a brand.

Utter TOSH. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_trade

Nevyn

What are thier opening hours ?
Coperate american multinationals bad,
fair trade coffee good

but honestly if they are open past 11pm on a sunday to wednesay thursday and
after 12:30 on a friday satursay I will go there.
It is damn near impossible to get anything that resmbles coffee at those times
in the city centre. And i don't consider what fast food outlets server to be coffee.

billyblanks

Shabadu wrote:

Utter TOSH. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_trade

Why? it says nothing about not being a brand in that article.

Shabadu

billyblanks wrote:

Why? it says nothing about not being a brand in that article.

Brand: A trademark or distinctive name identifying a product or a manufacturer.

"Fair Trade" is a description used by numerous companies, it is NOT NOT NOT a brand.

billyblanks

Shabadu wrote:

Utter TOSH. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_trade

This is from that article.

For consumers, fair trade seeks to guarantee high quality. This is usually indicated to the consumer by a fair trade label or brand.

Being a brand is not a bad thing!

Shabadu

billyblanks wrote:

This is from that article.

For consumers, fair trade seeks to guarantee high quality. This is usually indicated to the consumer by a fair trade label or brand.

Being a brand is not a bad thing!

That says that the description "fair-trade" may be used BY brands. IT IS NOT A BRAND.

Note that I never said being a brand was a bad thing, I just want to point out your large error.

I rarely use these, but in this situation --> :rolleyes:

billyblanks

ok ok....Fair Enough Shabadu, I will admit I am wrong on this and I deserve a :rolleyes:

but it was a misunderstanding of the term brand than of the the product, if you get my drift?

Anyway I apolgise......and hang my head in shame.

but I'm right on the other stuff:)