What ever happened to the Anti Bin Tax Campaign

Dub13

The title says it all.Its been a long time since I heard anything from them,is the campaign even still going...?

billy the squid

trash canned tbh

what do you mean bin tax, will it like come out of everyones wages or does it mean that you will have to pay to get your rubbish collected like most other parts of the country?

pete

billy the squid wrote:

will it like come out of everyones wages

Only the first time you pay it.


ahhh not this one again.

pete

Dub13 wrote:

The title says it all.Its been a long time since I heard anything from them,is the campaign even still going...?

http://www.socialistparty.net/bintax/

Dub13

I still have not paid mine...I get the odd letter from DCC.I would say I am going to have to pay someday not to far away.

Kernel

Dub13 wrote:

The title says it all.Its been a long time since I heard anything from them,is the campaign even still going...?

A lot of the people who were elected into the local council elections on an anti-bin tax mandate have simply sold out, or realised that they knew very little about politics, and are in over their heads, so are going to keep their mouths shut, take the paycheck, and hope not to seem foolish and uneducated in their newly elected position.

Most of them were independents, since not many parties were going to put their necks on the line, and their TDs towed the line as always (come back McCreevy!).

There's no stopping the bin tax unfortunately - since we are on our own as working class PAYE dubs.

Country folk will not see the injustice in it, since they only have their own selfish begrudgery to persuade them that if they have had to pay it, we should suddenly pay it too - conveniently ignoring the question as to why we should pay a new tax which we never have had to pay before, and the issue of infrastructure and waste disposal costs outside the capital. Then there's the famous debate of Dublin being the economic powerhouse of the entire country, and us paying more taxes, as well as increased housing costs which have provided more stamp duty.

Maybe Dublin people can get more solidarity when they try to introduce water rates, since that will affect our country cousins too?

What people should do, is make sure to pressure the local council for every possible amenity, to take back something for your area, since they are now taking your money (or going to).

oscarBravo

Kernel wrote:

Country folk will not see the injustice in it...

Correct.

Kernel wrote:

...since they only have their own selfish begrudgery to persuade them that if they have had to pay it, we should suddenly pay it too...

Um, no. The principle is simple: the polluter pays.

Kernel wrote:

...conveniently ignoring the question as to why we should pay a new tax which we never have had to pay before...

It's not a tax. It's a service charge. The fact that you haven't had to pay it is the anomaly.

Kernel wrote:

...and the issue of infrastructure and waste disposal costs outside the capital.

I don't know what you mean by this.

Kernel wrote:

Then there's the famous debate of Dublin being the economic powerhouse of the entire country, and us paying more taxes, as well as increased housing costs which have provided more stamp duty.

I'm not aware of any suggestion that Dubliners should pay more taxes - simply that they should pay for the disposal of the waste that they generate.

Kernel wrote:

Maybe Dublin people can get more solidarity when they try to introduce water rates, since that will affect our country cousins too?

I pay for my water. Why shouldn't you?

seedot

Still defending non-payers in court, still holding meetings and reacting to any attempts at non-collection, strill raising money for what is expected in the next while.

I think the key thing is that bins are still being collected in the city where there is a campaign so there have been no big on street confrontations => the media is not covering the campaign at the moment (local group hold fundraiser and discuss dangers of non-collection is not much of a story)

On the polluter pays thing... this is one of the court victories won by the campaign in the last year i.e. two judges have found that it does not support the polluter pays principle therefore the collection of arrears is in limbo as it looks like all of 2001 and 2002 bills may be ruled out. This is being appealed bty the City Council to the Supreme Court.

Kernel - which councillors are you talking about?

Kernel

oscarBravo wrote:

I pay for my water. Why shouldn't you?

I've cut most of your post, because my last one was long enough, and I can sum it up by saying that you've proved my previous point of country people saying 'we pay it, why shouldn't the Dubs?' nonsense.

Well, you don't understand the whole concept of infrastructure versus costs, or you didn't understand what I was saying. If I run a waste disposal company, and I have to travel for 100 miles to collect the rubbish for only a few tax paying households (which is precisely what happens in the 'country'), then obviously, I have to charge the council more for providing that service to them. In Dublin, such a situation never existed, and still doesn't.

So, people like you fail to see a problem that a large proportion of your fellow countrymen have to suddenly pay a tax they previously didn't have to, and thus the government gets away with it, because they may just about have popular support. That leads to problems for many people in Ireland. You don't see a problem with other people suddenly and for no good reason, having to pay a tax, because you are a part of the Irish attitude of petty begrudgery.

That is one small reason why we all get screwed.

We pay more tax, as a county, becuase we have more PAYE workers and we pay more for housing, therefore more Stamp duty. Nevermind VAT. Dublin keeps this republic running, whether you like to admit it or not.

Kernel

seedot wrote:

Kernel - which councillors are you talking about?

Many of them, from what I have heard from friends, but to name names, I'll say joan Collins (yeah, real name) for South Dublin C.C.

i know she got elected purely on an anti-bin tax mandate, with no previous experience in any political field, and has since done nothing for anti-bin tax (bar printing out and distributing a few piss-poor leaflets) or anything else! :mad:

billy the squid

Well, you don't understand the whole concept of infrastructure versus costs, or you didn't understand what I was saying. If I run a waste disposal company, and I have to travel for 100 miles to collect the rubbish for only a few tax paying households (which is precisely what happens in the 'country'), then obviously, I have to charge the council more for providing that service to them. In Dublin, such a situation never existed, and still doesn't.

Dublin is not the only urban centre in the country you know. I live in a city and the rubbish collectors don't have to travel 100 miles to fill a truck. We pay close to €400 a year for refuse collection. I cannot see what the problem is that people in dublin think paying for this service is beneath them.

Nuttzz

billy the squid wrote:

I cannot see what the problem is that people in dublin think paying for this service is beneath them.

"Because us Dubs prop up the boggers economy and if ya's dont like it just move to dublin like the rest of your relations"

Seriously, I was once told that....

seedot

Kernel wrote:

Many of them, from what I have heard from friends, but to name names, I'll say joan Collins (yeah, real name) for South Dublin C.C.

i know she got elected purely on an anti-bin tax mandate, with no previous experience in any political field, and has since done nothing for anti-bin tax (bar printing out and distributing a few piss-poor leaflets) or anything else! :mad:

See, this is one of the problems with our democracy - basing opinions on hearsay and gossip rather than any real knowledge.

1. Joan is in Dublin City Council - not South Dublin.

2. Joan was politically involved with both her union (CWU) and as a member of one of the minor left wing parties for about 15 years.

3. She briefed the barristers (and got the money to pay for it) which have defeated any attempts to collect arrears.

4. She has proposed and got passed a motion in the City Council to get all bins collected.

5. She is heavily involved in the campaign around the development of Crumlin Village, has been organising large public meetings and is establishing a committee with a number of community organisations to look at this.

So.. any other councillors? AFAIK she was the only one elected on an anti-bin tax ticket.

kc66

Its unbelievable the way some Dubs have a such a strong feeling of superiority.

Country folk will not see the injustice in it, since they only have their own selfish begrudgery to persuade them that if they have had to pay it, we should suddenly pay it too

Selfish? We pay the service charges. Begrudgery? We definitely wouldn't want end up as small minded as this imbecile.

I have to travel for 100 miles to collect the rubbish for only a few tax paying households

I lived in Galway city for 4 years while in college there. The costs since 2000 (and before that I assume) are around €360 per year. They dont have to send the bin lorries 100 miles. I now live about 10 miles from Blanchardstown and am paying a lot of money to dispose of waste.

These people that are oppsosing the "taxes" are just too tight to pay it and are holding out as long as they can.

HelterSkelter

These people that are oppsosing the "taxes" are just too tight to pay it and are holding out as long as they can

I cannot see what the problem is that people in dublin think paying for this service is beneath them.

I pay for my water. Why shouldn't you?

I cannot understand the way so many people in this country will accept ANY charge their elected politicians throw at them without questioning it.

segadreamcast

Kernel wrote:

We pay more tax, as a county, becuase we have more PAYE workers and we pay more for housing, therefore more Stamp duty. Nevermind VAT. Dublin keeps this republic running, whether you like to admit it or not.

So? We also have more schools to maintain, more hospitals to upkeep, more transportation links (hello Luas, Dublin Bus et al) then any other county. We might be charged slightly more per capita, but it should also be noticed that the average Dublin worker earns more on average per capita and, (I'd imagine, based on what I've said above) upkeeping Dublin costs the Government more per capita - thus, it's a fair trade off and a bit of a moot point.

As was said earlier, the polluter pays, I think it's more than fair and - a great net positive effect - it has driven nearly everybody in Dublin towards recycling.

HelterSkelter

NoelRock wrote:

As was said earlier, the polluter pays, I think it's more than fair and - a great net positive effect - it has driven nearly everybody in Dublin towards recycling.

What a load of bollix, if that's the case why do you still have to pay if you manage to recycle 100% of your waste?????

Culchie

Started at €5, 18 months ago, went up to €6 last year, and got letter in post to advise of €8 from 1st January 2006.

Some price hike, and shows the campaigners were right in saying such ludricous increases would happen.

63% in 18 months :mad:

Kernel

Kernel wrote:

Country folk will not see the injustice in it, since they only have their own selfish begrudgery to persuade them that if they have had to pay it, we should suddenly pay it too

Yet again we see why the left wing in Ireland gets it so wrong - they have nothing to say to most of the electorate, make gross generalisations about the majority of the population, and really only have a message that's relevant to a handful of the people living in Dublin.

Frankly, I presume the media just decided that, against serious issues like the collapse of the beet industry, this was just a complete red herring of a subject and left it alone...

oscarBravo

Kernel wrote:

I've cut most of your post, because my last one was long enough, and I can sum it up by saying that you've proved my previous point of country people saying 'we pay it, why shouldn't the Dubs?' nonsense.

Unfortunately, you've done nothing whatsoever to answer the question of why Dubliners shouldn't pay for a service they receive, when everyone else does.

Kernel wrote:

Well, you don't understand the whole concept of infrastructure versus costs, or you didn't understand what I was saying.

You seem to be saying that a service that costs less to provide in Dublin should be provided for free. It seems more logical to me that if the cost of providing the service is lower, then the service charge should be lower.

That said, I've yet to see anything concrete from you on the relative cost of providing a refuse collection service in Dublin versus any other city, town or rural area.

Kernel wrote:

If I run a waste disposal company, and I have to travel for 100 miles to collect the rubbish for only a few tax paying households (which is precisely what happens in the 'country'), then obviously, I have to charge the council more for providing that service to them. In Dublin, such a situation never existed, and still doesn't.

This is what I'm talking about above: nothing concrete, and an apparent assumption that it doesn't cost anything to collect waste in Dublin.

Kernel wrote:

So, people like you fail to see a problem that a large proportion of your fellow countrymen have to suddenly pay a tax they previously didn't have to...

Are you trying to claim that because you've gotten away without paying for something in the past, you have a right to have it for free in perpetuity?

Kernel wrote:

You don't see a problem with other people suddenly and for no good reason, having to pay a tax...

I don't see a problem with people having to pay for a service they receive.

Kernel wrote:

...because you are a part of the Irish attitude of petty begrudgery.

If you could step away from the ad hominem approach for a moment, you'll see that there's no begrudgery involved. I don't want Dubliners to pay for waste collection just because I have to; I think Dubliners should pay for their waste to be collected for the same reason I have to.

Kernel wrote:

We pay more tax, as a county, becuase we have more PAYE workers and we pay more for housing, therefore more Stamp duty. Nevermind VAT. Dublin keeps this republic running, whether you like to admit it or not.

You also generate the vast majority of the country's waste. Someone has to pay for it to be collected and disposed of, and we (the rest of the country) are already paying for our own.

Blackjack

There are parts of the "Country" where the local council simply do not offer a service. People have to bring the rubbish to the local tip, and pay for it to be taken. Any illegal dumping carries a pretty hefty fine, so you can't simply leave it where you like.
And people are moaning about having to pay for it being collected from outside their door?.

Kernel

seedot wrote:

See, this is one of the problems with our democracy - basing opinions on hearsay and gossip rather than any real knowledge.

1. Joan is in Dublin City Council - not South Dublin.

2. Joan was politically involved with both her union (CWU) and as a member of one of the minor left wing parties for about 15 years.

3. She briefed the barristers (and got the money to pay for it) which have defeated any attempts to collect arrears.

4. She has proposed and got passed a motion in the City Council to get all bins collected.

5. She is heavily involved in the campaign around the development of Crumlin Village, has been organising large public meetings and is establishing a committee with a number of community organisations to look at this.

So.. any other councillors? AFAIK she was the only one elected on an anti-bin tax ticket.

May I ask how you know all this? Are you related?

Kernel

HelterSkelter wrote:

I cannot understand the way so many people in this country will accept ANY charge their elected politicians throw at them without questioning it.

Amen brother, amen. It's the fault of the tractable masses and begrudgery of Ireland which has the high stealth taxes and high costs the way they are. 'Ahhh your man in the bank is getting 50 grand a year, I'm a plumber, but I'll put my prices up to get as much as him'.......

kc66 wrote:

Selfish? We pay the service charges. Begrudgery? We definitely wouldn't want end up as small minded as this imbecile.

Well, as soon as someone starts calling people names, like imbecile, it's clear that they have no argument worth listening to. You took it personally, allowing you to retort with an emotive response which missed the point entirely.

This is a Dublin issue, to do with Dublin councils, take up your own problems with your own councils.

Hotblack Desiato

Kernel, how are the Dublin councils going to fund themselves if there are no bin (or water) charges?

Collection costs may be less in Dublin, but disposal costs are probably higher - there is a big problem with a lack of landfill space.

The councils get hefty business rates in the capital, but it's not nearly enough.

If central government provides a bigger grant to local authorities, then VAT, income tax or something else will have to go up.

I'm a Dub and have no problem with paying a fair amount for local charges. The bin tax protestors don't represent me, or anyone I know. They've got their heads in the sand and are playing a populist ticket, well in the real world hard decisions have to be made and services have to be paid for.

This situation is all a consequence of FF buying the 1977 election and short-sightedly abolishing domestic rates. We still haven't figured out a good alternative method for funding local authorities properly - and it suits central government to keep the councils cash-strapped and almost powerless, while blaming councillors for unpopular decisions.

What I do find unfair is the issue of service charges in apartments, if we could have our own bin and use bin tags we'd pay a lot less than the flat annual rate we're charged for the communal bins. It doesn't matter how little waste we generate or how much we recycle, we still pay the same. On top of that the management company charges for street lighting, insurance etc., for non-apartment dwellers the council pays for these services and doesn't make any direct charge for them.

billy the squid

Nuttzz wrote:

"Because us Dubs prop up the boggers economy and if ya's dont like it just move to dublin like the rest of your relations"

Seriously, I was once told that....

what horse**** to be honest. Liemrick city has the highest business rates in the country, not to mention one of th highest refuse collection charges. The city council dont even offer the service, as it is privatised.

as for propping up other parts of the country, take a look at how limerick city benefited from transport 21`compared to other parts of the country. the person who "told you that" must have had their head up their arse.

as for who is propping up who, the EU is propping up Dublin, Dublin thinks it is propping up the rest of the country because it throws whats left of the EU money towards the rest of the country when it has taken its share.

democrates

Any tax should be just.
On the one hand the polluter pays, great, we should be composting/recycling anyway. I know a scangar who claims to flush most of his waste down the jacks.
On the other hand ability to pay should be taken into account, but the exemption available is a blunt instrument, either you're near the poverty line or you pay full whack.

I'm thinking of doing away with the black wheelie next year, I've only put it out three times this year since I started composting and shopping based on packaging. For the bit I have it would be cheaper to drop it up to Ballyogan dump myself at a tenner a pop plus a euro-odd for fuel.

seedot

May I ask how you know all this? Are you related?

Kernel - do we only know about our public representatives if we are related to them? I know Joan is in Dublin City Council because she is in my ward - but this is not really too difficult to find out. I included it in my response more to show the quality of your information than because I thought it would be news to anybody. The rest comes from leaflets through doors, reports in the media, attendance at local public meetings etc. You know - politics, the stuff that you (falsely) claimed Joan doesn't do.

seedot

Deleted User wrote:

Frankly, I presume the media just decided that, against serious issues like the collapse of the beet industry, this was just a complete red herring of a subject and left it alone...

This is an interesting point.

Anybody who has read the material and analysis produced by the bin tax campaign knows that
a) there is an acceptance the waste service has to be paid for - just disagreement with the method
b) the service charge has nothing to do with 'polluter pays' - a statement that is now supported by the High Court judgements
c) the development of the waste service charge in terms of increases, removal of waivers, privatisation has all been exactly as foretold by the campaign despite accusation of scaremongering 3 and 4 years ago
d) waste management and sugar beet are intrinsically linked.

(long boring analysis of wto round and Hong Kong meetings next month snipped since everybody has heard it all before)

The media stuff is because of the lack of direct action as the council has held off trying to implement their policy of leaving waste to pile up on our streets. Maybe now the frost has come we'll see some attempts here.

The Corinthian

oscarBravo wrote:

It's not a tax. It's a service charge. The fact that you haven't had to pay it is the anomaly.

Oh dear, you are missing the point, which is we have been paying it. The civil service, of which sanitary workers are part, are paid for via our taxes. The objection to many is that this stealth tax is on top of our existing income tax and a now rather bewildering list of other stealth taxes.

Of course you might suggest that it is a fairer method of charging for such a service, but were that so what’s happened to the pre-existing situation? Were we not actually paying for it? Well, we were funding the State with our taxes and the State was funding the sanitary workers, so that’s not it. Perhaps we received an income tax rebate in lew of the new tax? Nope, not it either.

So what remains is that we are being double charged - we’re not discussing a simple increase here, we’re essentially being charged twice for the same service. That’s the objection.

oscarBravo

Kernel wrote:

It's the fault of the tractable masses and begrudgery of Ireland which has the high stealth taxes and high costs the way they are. 'Ahhh your man in the bank is getting 50 grand a year, I'm a plumber, but I'll put my prices up to get as much as him'.......

Or maybe - just maybe - there's a high demand for plumbers at the moment, and market forces are at work. After all, if your usual plumber has decided to put up his prices just because of what a bank employee gets (and I somehow doubt you've ever had a plumber rationalise his fees to you in that way), you can always employ a cheaper plumber, right? There's no shortage of cheap plumbers out there, right?

Kernel wrote:

Well, as soon as someone starts calling people names... it's clear that they have no argument worth listening to.

Kernel wrote:

...you are a part of the Irish attitude of petty begrudgery.

Okie dokie so.

kc66

This is a Dublin issue, to do with Dublin councils, take up your own problems with your own councils.

I dont have a problem with paying the charges. I have a problem with the your point of view towards the charges so I direct them towards you not the council. And you are the one that brought the "country folk" into the argument