What ever happened to the Anti Bin Tax Campaign

HelterSkelter

Just read this on the anti-bin tax page:

"Last year Dublin City Council had a flat charge of €195. This year the same service will cost €340 a year! If you reduce and recycle and put your bin out half as much as previously, it will cost you €210, still €15 more than last year. These increases are mirrored throughout the country.

In many areas, councils operated a waiver system to diminish the opposition to the tax by giving some the impression that they'd be exempt. Dun Laoghaire / Rathdown is just the latest Council to alter or scrap their waiver system. Those who previously got a waiver will now only be exempt from the flat charge and will have to pay over €250 a year."

This confirms to me that they are not serious about encouraging people to recycle more, it is just a money making scam.

Another thing I'd like to know is what is being done about the companies producing all this unnecessary packaging? Do they pay anything towards the waste collection services? Does anybody know?

Another unfair thing is many councils are cutting the waiver programs :

On top of these increased charges the Council (Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown) has also cut the waiver system. Now every one who was previously entitled to a 100% waiver will only receive an exemption for the standing charge of €80 and will have to pay the €8 charge everytime their bin is collected.

Cork City - Council have taken the axe to the city's bin charge waiver system. Starting 17 January, the Council will operate a double bin charge - a €255 annual fixed charge and €5 a week for tags without which bins will not be emptied.

Most pensioners will be waivered for both charges but all other householders on the waiver - including the sick, the unemployed and the low paid will be asked to pay for the tags.

This will hit low-income households to the tune of nearly €200 this year.

Limerick:For the rest of this year (July-December) households who were previously entitled to a 100% waiver will be entitled to 13 free collections, i.e. once a fortnight, while those previously on 70% waivers will have 9 free collections, with 7 collections for 50% waivers. If households need more collections, they will have to pay one of the private operators.

seedot

I think we're going in circles.

I believe this charge doesn't work. Therefore I believe step one is eliminate this charge and then look at a waste system. Nobody seems to be defending the charges as they stand - but rather saying that they should be retained since charges themselves are a good thing and we should work to reform the existing ones.

1. I don't think this is a credible way to stimulate a debate on waste management - the charges once accepted will stay and increase, rather than be reformed in any real way.

2. I don't accept that charging for the service does have any economic argument. As shown above, they are likely to lead to dumping with associated public health and environmental impact. Since this reflects what has been happening (25% not using bin service) I think it is a reasonable proposition.

On waste production vs. disposal - If I buy stuff which has excessive packaging - it will end up in the waste system. Therefore the behaviour to change is at the point of production - not disposal. This is why packaging levies will have a greater impact.

On private waste collectors - they have no motivation to encourage recycling / reduction of waste - unlike direct labour. So they may not encourage you to increase waste - but they definitely won't encourage you to reduce it.

On rates - I am not proposing a re-introduction of domestic rates. I am saying that any finance measures should a) be to a central fund not private b) not use non-collection as a way of encouraging payment c) preferably be under the direct control of the local authority rather than central government. There are a number of ways a charge could fit with these criteria while still motivating behaviour.

If this charge was about devising a waste system then it would be worth looking at reforming it. But it isn't - it is preparing the market for liberalisation (a commitment the govt. has made in the Council of Ministers of the EU and which is being brought to the GATS talks next month in Hong Kong). So opposing the charge means we have more of a chance that we will devise a waste system that is based on the needs of our population and our environment, rather than support the ongoing withdrawal of government from core public services.

Kernel

seedot wrote:

which constituency do you live in Kernel? Despite living in Joans constituency you were mistaken in the Council (not ward - Council) she was elected to??

These people you talked to - they involved in any political campaigns? I showed you mine

Hi, yeah I made a mistake when I put in South Dublin C.C., I meant Dublin City Council. I live in Walkinstown, and the people I would have spoken to would not have been involved in political campaigns, mainly just constituents.

seedot

Kernel wrote:

Hi, yeah I made a mistake when I put in South Dublin C.C., I meant Dublin City Council. I live in Walkinstown, and the people I would have spoken to would not have been involved in political campaigns, mainly just constituents.

I think Joan is more based between Drimnagh and Crumlin Village. Pat Dunne stood for the bin tax campaign up your way I think, missed out by a few hundred votes. So in part, the problem is that you don't have an anti bin tax representative - so it is much harder to connect to and be aware of the campaign.

I'll plug http://www.indymedia.ie/bintax - if you ignore the left wing infighting theres a lot of news on the campaign there.

Kernel

seedot wrote:

I think Joan is more based between Drimnagh and Crumlin Village. Pat Dunne stood for the bin tax campaign up your way I think, missed out by a few hundred votes. So in part, the problem is that you don't have an anti bin tax representative - so it is much harder to connect to and be aware of the campaign.

I'll plug http://www.indymedia.ie/bintax - if you ignore the left wing infighting theres a lot of news on the campaign there.

Cheers for the info. AFAIK Joan Collins does represent here, she certainly campaigned here for votes, and got them?

Anyway I'll check out indymedia for some info, since I am vehemently against unjust stealth taxes and oppression of the common PAYE worker.

democrates

Kernel wrote:

It sounds better than I expected tbh, but where do you dispose of your carcasses and plastics and other things? There would be a lot of things you couldn't compost, and unfortunately, even if you only use your bin 3-4 times in a year, you'll still have to pay hundreds in the fixed charge.

You're right, It's 80 euro plus 4 collections per year at 4euro a pop plus the weight-based charge as it stands. I don't really mind that though because the green bin is collected every month, and as that's free the recyling motive is effective.

Most plastics eg milk containers, cling-film, shrink-wrapping etc but not polystyrene, eg meat trays, can go to Ballyogan recycling along with batteries, old electronics etc, but agreed, the carcasses sitting for a few months in the black bin bothers me, not the smell but as someone else mentioned the potential health hazard, just disinfecting after collections is not enough.

I'm going to research if those sink-side food disposal units are more ok for the sea ecologically compared with landfill, if so I'll get one of those, you can crunch and rinse down lots of stuff in them.

samb

I'm going to research if those sink-side food disposal units are more ok for the sea ecologically compared with landfill, if so I'll get one of those, you can crunch and rinse down lots of stuff in them.

I'm fairly sure that you are better off sending it to landfill at present. Most of the new larger landfills are well controlled with the biogas being extracted and leachate treated. You should try to do something with your biological waste, if you have a garden then you should have a composter.

If the sewage was pumped far out to sea then it would biodegrade fairly harmlessly but it is not. It is treated at sewage treatment plants like rings end and discharged into the Bay. These plants are famously having difficulties without us adding to the BOD load that they must cope with.

Someone suggested to me recently that all the washing of milk cartons, tins etc for recycling may actually be worse value for money in terms of the environmental protection.

Reycling therefore=more hyraulic and BOD load for treatment plants, cost of pre-use treatment of water, increased discharge to waters(slightly)

I think that might make for another interesting topic for research.

P.S I'm not saying we shouldn't recyle I'm just saying it can cause its own environmental problems. Can we not recyle them dirty, I think when they are pulverised or whatever the residue can be removed and treated and landfilled.

P.P.S Bin-Tax what a joke, I pay my electricity-tax.

democrates

samb wrote:

I'm fairly sure that you are better off sending it to landfill at present. Most of the new larger landfills are well controlled with the biogas being extracted and leachate treated. You should try to do something with your biological waste, if you have a garden then you should have a composter.
If the sewage was pumped far out to sea then it would biodegrade fairly harmlessly but it is not. It is treated at sewage treatment plants like rings end and discharged into the Bay. These plants are famously having difficulties without us adding to the BOD load that they must cope with.

Interesting, I'll continue to look into it. I have a composter but I'm not mad about putting flesh into it, attracts rats and could be a health hazard.

samb wrote:

Someone suggested to me recently that all the washing of milk cartons, tins etc for recycling may actually be worse value for money in terms of the environmental protection.

Reycling therefore=more hyraulic and BOD load for treatment plants, cost of pre-use treatment of water, increased discharge to waters(slightly)

I think that might make for another interesting topic for research.

P.S I'm not saying we shouldn't recyle I'm just saying it can cause its own environmental problems. Can we not recyle them dirty, I think when they are pulverised or whatever the residue can be removed and treated and landfilled.

P.P.S Bin-Tax what a joke, I pay my electricity-tax.

Another thing I'm interested in is a rain collector. I agree it's a waste using water that's been purified to drinking standard for flushing toilets, washing out cartons etc.

samb

Yes I don't see why rain water is not used more either. I think they use it a good bit in Germany and probalbly other countries. I don't see why we can't use it for nearly everything bar drinking.

Kernel

Come on lads, you've started to wander too much into far left hippy environmentalist nutter territory with the rain water collectors.

If I was living in the desert of North Africa or Iran, then maybe, but we have plenty of water here in Ireland, it all goes back to the water table and to rivers etc., and water treatment plants do not cause much of an extra environmental impact (potentially none if managed properly).

Bring on the European nuclear fusion reactor I say.

yes back on topic please

seedot

Sort of back on topic, the Dublin City Estimates (budget) was passed last night 30 - 16 on a roll call vote. What was interesting was that the presentations by the city manager and Kevin Humphries (Labour councillor) focussed almost entirely on the bin tax. This may have been because of the noise from the protest outside but to return to the OP, the anti bin tax campaign is still seen as alive in the council chambers ;-)

democrates

Kernel wrote:

Come on lads, you've started to wander too much into far left hippy environmentalist nutter territory with the rain water collectors.

If I was living in the desert of North Africa or Iran, then maybe, but we have plenty of water here in Ireland, it all goes back to the water table and to rivers etc., and water treatment plants do not cause much of an extra environmental impact (potentially none if managed properly).

Bring on the European nuclear fusion reactor I say.

Rarr!

Thing is you're paying for waste one way or another, even if we don't have local domestic water charges yet you can bet it'll be an issue in the future, at the moment it's coming out of general taxation.

Measures that reduce bin or water costs I would have thought are reasonably overlapped with the topic, but I guess the point is made now and anyone who is interested in taking more responsibility for their actions can check out the green issues forum.

ronbyrne2005

waste disposal costs money.
better to reward those who use less/recycle more through pay per removel or by weight. the rise in charges over last two years are down to the success of the recycle campaign which left a shortfall in revenue to cover the waste disposal,personally i pay less now than i did 3 years ago as i recycle a good bit.
the double taxation argument is an erroneous one.we pay triple taxes on alcohol (tax on income then vat and customs on alcohol) and double tax on food(income tax and vat) we dont see everyone jumping about moaning about this.
also a question;why is it mainly working class folk moaning complaining and refusing to pay?

gurramok

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

also a question;why is it mainly working class folk moaning complaining and refusing to pay?

Answer: Because they are mainly at the bottom of the earning power in this country hence can't afford the stealth taxes

ronbyrne2005

nothing stealth about them, if you can afford to produce waste you can afford to dispose of it properly. if the private sector ran this service you would be paying a lot more. a cost exists to dispose of waste if it came from general taxation pool/central government people would not be incentivised to reduce the waste. people want everything for nothing, we get our water free unlike uk,we get healthcare free unlike usa ,waste disposal isnt an essential service and shouldnt come from general taxation.

gurramok

Nice input, sounds like a Tory like opinion. We are paying thru the nose in indirect taxes for the services, nothing is free.
Maybe the poor shouldn't eat at all as they cannot afford the cost of recycling their waste ?
Love the bit about free healthcare, €60 to visit a doc, maybe they meant monopoly euro money?

ronbyrne2005

emergency healthcare in ireland is pretty much free,in america a gp visit is around 150dollars and you wont get a major high cost operation unless you have insurance unlike here where everyone gets high cost surgery for free albeit non urgent cases face a waiting list and hundreds of thousands have medical cards which again you wouldnt get in usa. i hate the begrudgers slagging off their country which is a pretty good place to live with low income taxes so indirect taxes have to be raised to pay for services

gurramok

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

emergency healthcare in ireland is pretty much free,in america a gp visit is around 150dollars and you wont get a major high cost operation unless you have insurance unlike here where everyone gets high cost surgery for free albeit non urgent cases face a waiting list and hundreds of thousands have medical cards which again you wouldnt get in usa. i hate the begrudgers slagging off their country which is a pretty good place to live with low income taxes so indirect taxes have to be raised to pay for services

There are 3 groups - medical card holders, private insurance and those who have neither. Only first group get most treatment free, not everyone.
Where is healthcare free?..can you advise me as i was looking to get flu jab but i have to pay €60 GP visit and pay cost of jab itself, not free. I'm not entitled to get a medical card (earn too much)

ronbyrne2005

didnt say all healthcare was free,if you read i say emergency healthcare and high cost operations,if you have a heart attack you will get an operation costing 50k for free! dont moan about a 60euro gp visit,if gp visits were free for all then you'd have everyone turing up every time they had a sniffle or some other unneccesary reason.if you genuinely cant afford 60 euro most GPs are decent people and will charge you according to your means.

fly_agaric

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

if you have a heart attack you will get an operation costing 50k for free!

:eek:
What! Should let them die or at least work them to death after the operation. Maybe they are having those heart-attacks on purpose to cost honest joe taxpayer money and gain the benefit of an expensive operation for free? Bet you didn't think of that!

samb

Nice input, sounds like a Tory like opinion. We are paying thru the nose in indirect taxes for the services, nothing is free.

Tories are generally in favour of low taxes, your statement above doesn't make sense therefore, if you consider paying for your own rubbish as a tax.