Sindo Article

civdef

Noticed today in the Sunday Independent. This thread IS NOT about the various political wranglings or the Nally case, there are loads of threads about those already on boards.ie.

However, it does highlight one party's view on guns and shooting:

FG crux over homeowners' rights after Nally case

JOHN DRENNAN

and TOM SHIEL

A PROPOSED private members bill to strengthen the rights of property owners in the wake of the case where a farmer was jailed for six years for shooting a Traveller dead could prove a political embarrassment for Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny.

Mr Kenny's "coalition" partners in the Labour Party have told the Sunday Independent that they would oppose any such legislation, which could lead to a climbdown by the prospective coalition leader.

The Labour Party believe that any such legislation could be "unconstitutional" while the Greens have accused Mr Kenny of jumping on "a Tory-style bandwagon".

A Sunday Independent telephone poll today reveals that 60 per cent of those surveyed believe that the six-year sentence for Mr Nally wastoo harsh.

But 34 per cent believed the sentence was "just right".

One male respondent said: "Ward was shot in the back trying to get away. Nally got off lightly."

The Fine Gael leader took a hardline stand last week claiming that the Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person Act "is currently biased against the home-owner and in favour of the criminal".

He revealed that he has instructed his Justice spokesman Jim O'Keeffe TD to draw up a private members bill. Fine Gael insist that Mr Kenny raised this issue about eight months ago and his concern is not linked directly to the present case.

Last Friday week, Padraig Nally, a Mayo farmer, was jailed for six years after he was convicted of the manslaughter of John 'Frog' Ward, a Traveller with a string of convictions for violence and larceny. The murder trial was told that Mr Nally shot Mr Ward in the buttock after finding him on his property. He then re-loaded his shotgun and then followed him out to the roadway and shot him in the back, killing him.

Mr Kenny's proposed legislation has now run into trouble in the Dail - and any bill he produces faces defeat by an unlikely coalition of Fianna Fail, Labour and the Greens.

"The Fine Gael bill would not be our approach," said Labour's Joe Costello. He said he believed such legislation could be unconstitutional.

Mr Costello called for a genuine policing response, complaining that in many areas gardai "open deserted barracks once a week," leaving people "like poor Padraig Nally to live lives of fear."

The Greens' spokesman Ciaran Cuffe accused Mr Kenny of jumping on board a "Tory bandwagon". He said he would oppose the proposed legislation and instead called for tighter controls on the possession of shotguns.

He said this would ensure that anyone who carried a shotgun and used it would have to make a "very strong case," rather than the "Norman-Lamont style rhetoric about how 'an Englishman's home is his castle'."

But the six-year prison sentence imposed on Padraig Nally has led to the formation of the 'Padraig Nally Support Group' which last week called off a rally in Athlone, which it believed would attract between 30,000 and 40,000 people. It did so because of the public perception that it would be regarded as "anti-Traveller."

Instead it is calling on people to pledge support through its website. It plans to present a huge volume of messages of support that Mr Nally has received to the Minister for Justice Mr Michael McDowell when it arranges a meeting with him.

One of the organisers of the campaign on behalf of Mr Nally, Paddy Rock, said he visited the farmer in Portlaoise Prison on Wednesday and found him in good spirits and buoyed up by support from well-wishers and sections of the media.

"He was asking about the welfare of the livestock on his land, obviously he is hoping to get back to his farm and his normal way of life as soon as possible," said Mr Rock.

Mr Nally, who was charged with murder and convicted of manslaughter, is preparing an appeal against his conviction and sentence.

Clare gunner

The law on self defence is there already,just very ill defined in what consists as reasonable force.The Greens comment,well not surprised there.They comment the same anywhere in Europe on gun issues,and going by their comment are pretty "green"on firearms laws here anyway.

Sparks

Actually CG, the Greens have been extremely helpful to us anytime we've asked, putting in questions in the Dail to the DoJ or DoATS. I'm wondering what he was on about - given past histories I'd be more inclined to think he was talking about the use of firearms in self defence in extremis and just didn't know what the current law was (not that unlikely a scenario).

Clare gunner

Sparks wrote:

Actually CG, the Greens have been extremely helpful to us anytime we've asked, putting in questions in the Dail to the DoJ or DoATS. I'm wondering what he was on about - given past histories I'd be more inclined to think he was talking about the use of firearms in self defence in extremis and just didn't know what the current law was (not that unlikely a scenario).

Quite possible,but I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them.[That goes for any politican of any hue]
Considering that they cosy up with the anti fieldsport lobby on a regular basis,ASFIK two of their members are spokespeople for ICABS.So I wouldnt say they are actually very pro gun either.

Sparks

I would blindly trust very few people (politician or no) CG, but there's a difference between being able to blindly trust someone and being able to
deal with them. At least you can say the greens have an ideology; not so sure about the larger parties, unless you count "staying in power" as an ideology

Clare gunner

[ At least you can say the greens have an ideology; not so sure about the larger parties, unless you count "staying in power" as an ideology

[/QUOTE]

Trouble is it is Euro green ideology that is bodering on Ludditeism,and is very unworkable,as Germany found out over the last eight years of a Red /Green coalation.It was very humourous to watch the Green greens,accuse their not so Green colleuges of being pro nuke power because they[the not so Greens] realised they couldnt shut down at once all the nuke powerplants in Germany as per election promise, without putting a quater of the country in the dark!:D
Staying in power as an ideology....Well,the divil you know....and all that.:D

chem

Sounds to me like the same old same old for getting votes. Just mention what people want to hear and will stick in there minds.

1. Drugs are bad
2. Guns are bad
3. Drink is.....better off not takin a side on this one lads as alot of people do have an odd drink or to and we might offened.
4. jails are good (lets build more)

Like it or not most people dont really care what the goverment does as long as they have money in there pockets and a roof over there heads. If they did there would have been another civil war 5 times over already. Yep keep the ants happy with suger and they will work.:p

Sparks

Staying in power as an ideology....Well,the divil you know....and all that.

Seems to me that we've gotten a lot more trouble from "the devil we know" than the "devil we don't" (remember, it's FG that the NARGC are discussing a seperate Firearms Bill with).
From the Fine Gael website:

Ticknock Forest totally unsuitable location for rifle range - Mitchell
Fine Gael Dublin South TD Olivia Mitchell has expressed concern that the Leinster Rifle and Pistol Club (LRPC) has applied to operate a firing range at Ticknock.
“I was absolutely aghast when this was first brought to my attention by the Mountain Biking Association, which also uses the forest. When I checked the LRPC website I saw that renovation work had already begun and they were advertising for extra members to avail of their ‘new’ range.
“Ticknock Forest is a heavily used popular amenity on the edge of suburbia. It is very accessible to the thousands of families living in the area. It is used by children for picnics, for scout outings, by walkers, by pony trekkers, and by mountain bikers, and is a popular destination for local family outings.
“All of these uses are completely incompatible with a firing range. It quite simply poses an unacceptable risk to other users.
“I have contacted the local authority to alert them about the club’s plans. I have discovered that the area was used as a firing range by the army but has been abandoned for at least 50 years. Apparently the land was sold to a private owner about ten years ago.
“Clearly any change of use of the land would now require planning permission. Coillte owns the forest but does not own the area of the proposed range within it, and has told me that they would be very unhappy with such a development. If planning permission is sought Coillte would lodge an objection and I would certainly do so myself.
“When one considers the huge area which is fenced off at army rifle ranges, and the level of security enforced, it seems unlikely that a similar private facility in such a populated area would find favour with planners.
“Shooting is a perfectly legitimate sport and I hope that the club finds a safe home somewhere else, but it cannot be permitted in such a heavily used and popular amenity.”

So you have a FG TD opposing the reopening of a rifle range that's been in existance as a rifle range since the 1800s, which is on private land, and doing so on behalf of people who shouldn't be anywhere near that land legally anyway, as is clearly signposted in the Coillte forest land all round that area:

Clare gunner

So you have an anti gun Fine Gael woman canditate,who obviously knows bugger all about guns or private property rules with a bad case of NIMBYism.AND??
Simple way to shut her up is Ticknock announces [at their open day to the public when the range is finished] that they will support a pro gun,and rifle range independant woman canditate who shoots.Dont necessarily have to,but there is one thing an est politico does not like is a challenge to their power base,especially if they dont know who the Hell it is.
Discoverd one thing here,growl at the politicos around election time and they back off real quick.

Sparks

So you have an anti gun Fine Gael woman canditate,who obviously knows bugger all about guns or private property rules with a bad case of NIMBYism.AND??

Point was, this was the party that the NARGC are working closely with. If a party can work closely with the largest shooting group around on drafting a firearms bill, and still have one of it's members do that, you can't slate any party especially for when it's individual members do daft stuff

Simple way to shut her up is Ticknock announces [at their open day to the public when the range is finished] that they will support a pro gun,and rifle range independant woman canditate who shoots.

Yes, because that worked so well when the NARGC did it.
Look CG, I'd love if we could do that; but even if we all voted en masse in a single block, we're too few and too spread out over districts to influence even one TD's election. Maybe a senator's election or the presidential campaign. Maybe.

Discoverd one thing here,growl at the politicos around election time and they back off real quick.

Yes, they back off - and then go check the numbers and see whether there's more of you or more of those who would vote for someone who opposes you, given the right spin. Three guesses where the analysis says to go these days?
And even if the politician writes it off and walks away, the game changes the day after the election.

Put simply, banging heads with these people just doesn't work. You'd think we'd have learnt that by now :rolleyes:

Clare gunner

[

QUOTE=Sparks]Point was, this was the party that the NARGC are working closely with. If a party can work closely with the largest shooting group around on drafting a firearms bill, and still have one of it's members do that, you can't slate any party especially for when it's individual members do daft stuff

I am sure Sparks you will find pro and anti gun in any of the parties.However all I am pointing out is the Greens just put this type of pavlovian response up,anytime firearms or fielssports are mentioned.Even if NARGC are working with FG and they get into power[who knows or cares?]ol whats her head,will be told to pipe down as she will be messing with "policy".AKA who be filling the FG coffers,and voting for them.

Yes, because that worked so well when the NARGC did it.
Look CG, I'd love if we could do that; but even if we all voted en masse in a single block, we're too few and too spread out over districts to influence even one TD's election. Maybe a senator's election or the presidential campaign. Maybe.

Talking of a serious publicity stunt that could turn into a political point.

Yes, they back off - and then go check the numbers and see whether there's more of you or more of those who would vote for someone who opposes you, given the right spin. Three guesses where the analysis says to go these days?
And even if the politician writes it off and walks away, the game changes the day after the election.

Hmmm,not so sure on that one Sparks,it also comes down to who is putting bread in their grubby paws.And remember it is better having peoples first prefernce votes on your name even if they hate your guts and vise versa,than on the other guys ticket.


No,you threaten to bang heads,and go out into the backroom and sort out a deal.Then you go back out and bluster and BS your lines.Which is exactly what that woman is doing,making noise to get her in the public eye.