Michael McDowell on Tubridy Tonight

jbkenn

Freelancer wrote:

Can I ask what, exactly he's done to clear up the drug problem in the prison population,

The responsibility for the drug problem in prisons lies with the body tasked with managing the prisons, namely, the Irish Prison Service, and a bad job they make of it too.

and what exactly has he done in cork and limerick?

about what exactly?

By the sounds of your description he's just translated government immirgration police and applied it crime.

Eh? you will have to run that one by me again:D

It's just we've had over 20 gun related deaths in the capital this year, and by the looks of it a massive gang war taking place,

Yup, but we have a justice system, which rightly, insists on evidence and proof beyond a reasonable doubt to obtain convictions

we've had the collaspe of trials in limerick of serious criminals.

Here's a no brainer for you, you witness a violent thug, whom you know to live in the next street, and who knows you also, commit a serious crime, you make a statement to the Gardai about this, and, you get a visit from his cousin to advise you that a bit of memory lapse would be in order, or else, like the lotto says "it could be you", what would you do?

Mc Dowell has allowed the crime problem in Ireland sky rocket while he rants about Sinn Fein,

These scumbag drug dealers have a long way to go before they catch up with the SF/IRA body count, at least they are only killing one another, for now.

and his holiday home in Cavan.

Lost me again

Himself and Harney have two cabinet positions and both departments have been disaster areas for their time in government and show no real sign of improvement.

Minister McDowell has been in Justice a couple of years, and Minister Harney has been in Health a wet week, Health has been a cluster**** for years, give her a chance, "Rome was'nt built in a day", and, if the Dept. of Health had anything to do with it, they would still be trying to figure out where to dig the foundations,and, would probably have spent the entire project budget.

And this is a bug bear, what about Garda reform? We've been waiting four and a half years for the independent police investigative force. It was a campaign promise, it's been years in the pipeline and it appears to be going nowhere.

"We've been waiting" You maybe, it does'nt occupy a moment of my waking day.

jbkenn

maccor

jbkenn wrote:

These scumbag drug dealers have a long way to go before they catch up with the SF/IRA body count, at least they are only killing one another, for now.

I realise this isnt part of the original topic, but can jbkenn explain the statement above, or back it up with some evidence. Im sure if SF were running around killing people they wouldnt be allowed to. to say otherwise without any supporting evidence doesnt really reflect well on the rest of the posters post.

jbkenn

maccor wrote:

I realise this isnt part of the original topic, but can jbkenn explain the statement above, or back it up with some evidence. Im sure if SF were running around killing people they wouldnt be allowed to. to say otherwise without any supporting evidence doesnt really reflect well on the rest of the posters post.

Evidence? where have you been for the last 34 years?

jbkenn

therecklessone

jbkenn wrote:

The responsibility for the drug problem in prisons lies with the body tasked with managing the prisons, namely, the Irish Prison Service, and a bad job they make of it too.

And responsibility for the body tasked with managing the prisons, namely, the Irish Prison Service, lies with the Minister for Justice. Is he doing a bad job of that?

jbkenn wrote:

These scumbag drug dealers have a long way to go before they catch up with the SF/IRA body count, at least they are only killing one another, for now.

In this jurisdiction, in the Minister's time in office, whats the body count of SF/IRA versus the body count of conventional criminals?

Now tell me Michael McDowells insistence on mentioning SF/IRA at every possible occassion is not for political reasons.

jbkenn wrote:

"We've been waiting" You maybe, it does'nt occupy a moment of my waking day.

It should, the Morris Tribunal, the deaths of Brian Rossiter and Terence Wheelock in custody, and the May Day fiasco all bring into question the ability of the Gardia to police themselves.

w66w66

Operation anvil has certainly been a moderate success in dealing with organised crime. But you have to remember though we had a similar situation in 1996, when a massive operation was launched against organised crime after the death of veronica Guerin. This operation seriously disrupted the organised crime network in Ireland, resulting in hundreds of arrests and significant reduction in organised crime activates. And yet, what we saw was that the void left in the criminal underworld by the 1996 crackdown was quickly filled and today the problem of organised crime is the same if not worse than it was pre veronica Guerin. The situation with Operation anvil is no different and the recent spate of gangland killing demonstrates that.

Freelancer

jbkenn wrote:

The responsibility for the drug problem in prisons lies with the body tasked with managing the prisons, namely, the Irish Prison Service, and a bad job they make of it too.

And who's in charge of the Irish Prison Service? One US president had "the buck stops here" written on his desk, not likely something Mc Dowell is going to written anywhere near his office.

about what exactly?

chief wrote:

Operation Anvil has forced many criminals in dublin to go to ground or move to Alicante/Malaga, and he has vowed to keep this going indefinitely and even extend it to Limerick and Cork.

The chief suggests McDowell is a good minister for justice because of several initiatives he's taken but doesn't get into specifics about what they are, I asked him to elaborate.

Eh? you will have to run that one by me again:D

Again. Try looking at the words in the grey boxes.

forced many criminals in dublin to go to ground or move to Alicante/Malaga

Apparently shipping criminals abroad for our EU partners to deal with rather than bringing them to justice is deemed a success.

Yup, but we have a justice system, which rightly, insists on evidence and proof beyond a reasonable doubt to obtain convictions

Thats nice and bloody obvious. However we've court backlogs for months, the extra garda promised haven't arrived and a gang war in dublin, those are all part of his remit yet he cannot or isn't able to stop them. I mean call me nuts any Minister for Justice who gets his house broken into five times is presiding over a fisaco of a criminal justice system.

Here's a no brainer for you, you witness a violent thug, whom you know to live in the next street, and who knows you also, commit a serious crime, you make a statement to the Gardai about this, and, you get a visit from his cousin to advise you that a bit of memory lapse would be in order, or else, like the lotto says "it could be you", what would you do?

Thats nice but his (Mc Dowell's job) is find a solution so this kind of thing shouldn't or couldn't happen. He's not.

These scumbag drug dealers have a long way to go before they catch up with the SF/IRA body count, at least they are only killing one another, for now.

It's all fun and games and lurid news of the world headlines until someone's mother loses an eye? I'm sure the residents of areas where this murders have been carried out feel safer knowing that you're non plussed that something like this is going on.

Lost me again

Holiday home, planning snafu? shotgun through the front door?

Minister McDowell has been in Justice a couple of years, and Minister Harney has been in Health a wet week, Health has been a cluster**** for years, give her a chance, "Rome was'nt built in a day", and, if the Dept. of Health had anything to do with it, they would still be trying to figure out where to dig the foundations,and, would probably have spent the entire project budget.

Thats nice and all, but I'm tired of "hey I just got here, I haven't even started shoveling money around on squanderous problems. They're in charge of two departments that are fiascos

"We've been waiting" You maybe, it does'nt occupy a moment of my waking day.

Very telling there are as recklessone pointed out many Irish people who have suffered needlessly at the hands of Garda who have behaved like common criminals and thugs, yet it doesn't bother you.

maccor

jbkenn wrote:

Evidence? where have you been for the last 34 years?

jbkenn

again off topic - ive been living in the north for most of it. wheres the proof of Sinn Fein killing people? You'll find there is none and that you are saying untruths. thats the quick answer so we dont clog up this thread

BuffyBot

Now tell me Michael McDowells insistence on mentioning SF/IRA at every possible occassion is not for political reasons.

A politician mentioning something for politcal reasons? Well I never!

maccor

yeah, but for his own personal profile reasons? that makes him fall into the standard arsehole politician category who does everything for their own gain

therecklessone

BuffyBot wrote:

A politician mentioning something for politcal reasons? Well I never!

I know, I know...

But in what capacity does he make these statements? Do people see Michael McDowell TD and President of the PDs, or Michael McDowell TD Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform? Because the vast majority of his public coverage is due to his role in government, and he's used his official position to attack SF/IRA on plenty of occassions.

I rate McDowell far and above any SF representatives, but I'd prefer he concentrated on doing his job, i.e. ensuring crime is tackled in this country, than scoring cheap shots for the purpose of the next general election.

FTA69

Now what's your attitude there? 'Ah sure it's only oranges and pineapples. What harm did they ever do anyone?'

Fair point, but are people buying Israeli coriander thus complicit in the subjugation of Palestine? In a way they are, but in a very small way that doesn't warrant massive criticism. Besides, as I said earlier, many people grow their own cannabis using seeds which are legally available to buy, what harm are they doing to people?

(you'd have to be to afford cocaine)

Coke is cheap enough nowadays, about €20 for a half a gram which you'd get about 5 small lines out of.

Kernel,

If I go to a pub, I pay my money to have a legal product, sold by a business which pays tax and is subject to the law and to legal guidelines. You don't see one chain of superpub carrying out drive-bys on a competitor.

Drink may not be against the law, but you'll find it kills many more people in our society than illegal drugs put together, the fact it is legal doesn't make it any less damaging to society.

Legalising cannabis is not the solution to every criminal problem in this country

We're not talking about every criminal problem, we're talking about cannabis so the legalise argument is very relevant. If it were legal there would be no nefarious gangs making money out of it would there?

Kernel

FTA69 wrote:

Drink may not be against the law, but you'll find it kills many more people in our society than illegal drugs put together, the fact it is legal doesn't make it any less damaging to society.

You're still missing the point. The point was that the minister came out with a statement which I agree with. That if people in Ireland buy cocaine and other drugs, then they are somewhat responsible for the rise in organised crime and gangland shootings such as we have witnessed recently. You just keep coming out with the usual arguments (mantra?) of the pro drug legalisation camp, of drink being worse blah blah blah. My point is that publicans pay taxes, they are required to abide by the law - drug dealers and smugglers, by their very nature are criminal - and as such do nasty things. If there wasn't such a demand for drugs in Ireland it wouldn't be as lucrative an enterprise, and thus the scale of the problem and violence would not be as big. If you cannot see that, I don't know what the point of your input is. This is not a drugs vs. alcohol vs. cigarettes thread.

FTA69 wrote:

We're not talking about every criminal problem, we're talking about cannabis so the legalise argument is very relevant. If it were legal there would be no nefarious gangs making money out of it would there?

:rolleyes: Who is talking about cannabis? You may be, but I'm talking about drug gangs. Put the dooby down and try to focus. Are you suggesting that cocaine and heroin should also be legalised? If not, then what benefit would cannabis legalisation be to society? If the drugs gangs are still importing vast quantities of other illegal narcotics, and Irish drug users continue to consume it, then there will still be problems with organised crime. If you do legalise everything, then sure, the organised criminal gangs will have less of a powerbase, but what state would society be in? And as has already been said in this thread, drugs are illegal for a reason.

In fact, you should probably start another thread here about how cannabis legalisation could benefit Irish society, I suspect you will get some level of opposition on it, but for this thread it is off topic, as often happens to a thread when the pro-cannabis campaigners say their piece.

BuffyBot

yeah, but for his own personal profile reasons? that makes him fall into the standard arsehole politician category who does everything for their own gain

Off the top of my head, I'm finding it hard to name one who doesn't...

therecklessone wrote:

I know, I know...

But in what capacity does he make these statements? Do people see Michael McDowell TD and President of the PDs, or Michael McDowell TD Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform? Because the vast majority of his public coverage is due to his role in government, and he's used his official position to attack SF/IRA on plenty of occassions.

I rate McDowell far and above any SF representatives, but I'd prefer he concentrated on doing his job, i.e. ensuring crime is tackled in this country, than scoring cheap shots for the purpose of the next general election.

Well, I guess it's probably a bit of all three. I guess how you take the "Michael McDowell TD Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform" part of him speaking depends on whether you believe that through that role he has access to sources and information we don't, and that the information he may be receiving is valid.

therecklessone

Kernel wrote:

You're still missing the point. The point was that the minister came out with a statement which I agree with. That if people in Ireland buy cocaine and other drugs, then they are somewhat responsible for the rise in organised crime and gangland shootings such as we have witnessed recently. You just keep coming out with the usual arguments (mantra?) of the pro drug legalisation camp, of drink being worse blah blah blah. My point is that publicans pay taxes, they are required to abide by the law - drug dealers and smugglers, by their very nature are criminal - and as such do nasty things. If there wasn't such a demand for drugs in Ireland it wouldn't be as lucrative an enterprise, and thus the scale of the problem and violence would not be as big. If you cannot see that, I don't know what the point of your input is. This is not a drugs vs. alcohol vs. cigarettes thread.

Kernel, I agree with the Minister's statement as well. Drug use funds organised crime. But FTA's argument is a valid one. A large percentage of drug users are criminalised because they choose to smoke cannabis. Legalise it and you remove the criminal gangs from the equation, and just like publicans the legal providers of cannabis will pay taxes and be required to abide by the law.

If the Minister wants to claim cannabis users fund orgainsed crime then fine, but I believe he needs to show why retaining the illegal status of cannabis is in the public interest.

Kernel wrote:

:rolleyes: Who is talking about cannabis? You may be, but I'm talking about drug gangs. Put the dooby down and try to focus. Are you suggesting that cocaine and heroin should also be legalised? If not, then what benefit would cannabis legalisation be to society? If the drugs gangs are still importing vast quantities of other illegal narcotics, and Irish drug users continue to consume it, then there will still be problems with organised crime.

There will, but I don't believe anyone's ever claimed that legalising cannabis is the solution to organised crime, just that it would remove one source of income from the gangs, and would allow people to partake of the drug without being criminalised.

therecklessone

BuffyBot wrote:

whether you believe that through that role he has access to sources and information we don't, and that the information he may be receiving is valid.

Yeah, but the cynic in me sees it as he has access to that information and is using that access to appear to be making valid arguments, purely for a political purpose.

I mean, he's the Minister for Justice, he must be know what he's talking about, right?

oscarBravo

therecklessone wrote:

...I don't believe anyone's ever claimed that legalising cannabis is the solution to organised crime, just that it would remove one source of income from the gangs, and would allow people to partake of the drug without being criminalised.

Why cannabis, and not cocaine? Heroin? Ecstasy? Speed?

beezkneez

FTA69 wrote:

We're not talking about every criminal problem, we're talking about cannabis so the legalise argument is very relevant. If it were legal there would be no nefarious gangs making money out of it would there?

They would be making money out of some other drug.

Im under 25 and i'm a big fan of Michael McDowell. As minister for Justice he stood up to the IRA/Sinn Fein and was never afraid to call them what they are - terrorists. He is exactly what we need from a Minister for Justice. Most comments here are about what he is doing wrong and 'why isnt he doing more' etc but nobody seems to be coming up with any solutions to the crime problems in the country. Legalising canninbis might help the matter for the time being but then a new buzz comes along and are we to legalize every new 'recreational' drug? Banning guns and better plicing of this might be a help as well as longer jail terms and electronic tagging could be of some use - and its looks like they were all in McDowells new laws he is spoke about yesterday.
If all people can come up with is to legalise cannibis to solve the countries problems then the country really is in a mess. Give the guy a break and start coming up with useful ideas on how to help instead of slating everything he does.

therecklessone

oscarBravo wrote:

Why cannabis, and not cocaine? Heroin? Ecstasy? Speed?

Well, its no skin off my nose either way, I'll be submitting to random drug testing in work shortly, and any of them that show up means the sack, but...

I would support the legalisation of cannabis, but not other drugs. Why? Because the impact of cannabis on the person, and on society, is negligable, and is certainly no worse than alcohol.

I believe other (harder) drugs to be far more destructive, over a very short period of time.