Multiculturalism = a total crock of poo

magpie

Ein Recih Ein Volk Ein Fuehrer and all that...

Snickers Man

grubber wrote:

Multiculturalism was invented by those left-wing politically correct brainboxes

That's bollox. The people who talk about 'multiculturalism' as if it's a new phenomenon tend to be those on the right. Especially the new right who are so tied up with the fantasy of the ubiquitously benign effects of market forces that they want to subjugate to them everything else--national boundaries, diverse tastes, unique identities--all these must go in the interests of a vast homogenising globalised market.

Multiculturalism: Bad! causes fragmented markets and diminishes opportunities for untrammeled growth.

Monoculturalism: Good! creates level playing field for the big boys to drive their tanks over gobbling up everything in their sights.

That's the global view. Now in the context of peoples of differing race, creed, ethnicity etc living in the same place the word 'multiculturalism' is being used, by the right, as a pejorative term for what we used to call 'pluralism' or even more basically: 'tolerance'.

Have a look who complains most about multiculturalism. It tends to be the loony right people. Myers in Ireland. O'Reilly in America. The likes of Pim Fortuyn's gang in Holland.

The history of mankind has been one of people migrating and mingling from one region,country or continent to another and coming to terms with the pain of accomodating the differences with others. To attempt to denigrate efforts to tolerate each other's differences by coining a new term for a very old phomenon is dishonest, stupid, petty, self seeking, shortsighted and dangerous.

You talk about integration. What would you make of a group of people whose religion is inherited genetically and automatically, who have a very strong taboo about marrying outside the 'faith' even given that the faith is question is mosty a heriditary one, observe religious ceremonies in their own ancient language, have strict dietary laws which set them apart from many of the cultures in which they live as a minority, and have a special allegiance to the one country in the world in which their co-religionists are a majority?

Should these people drop the aspects of their culture that make them different or clear off to their own country? Is their 'failure to integrate' fully evidence of an alien culture that poses a threat to the well being of the majority indigenous cultures among which they live? Does their very determination to retain their separate culture justify attempts by others to evict or assimilate them?

If you answer yes to any of the above, congratulations: You're an Anti-Semite.

Multiculturalism is a silly word. Just replace it with the word tolerance and then try and argue against it.

Zombrex

catholicireland wrote:

In 20 or 30 years time Ireland will really see what multiculturalism is like. We have only been experiencing it for a short period now.

We have been experiencing multiculturalism for years, from the very first Hollywood movie to the first BBC broadcasts, to the first Beatles hit. And every wave of multi-culturalism was denounced by those who fear it.

Our culture today is un-recongisable from 60 years ago (as our grandparents never cease to stop reminding us).

Did it destroy some of our native culture? Possibly (how many foreign shows on RTE vs home grown drama .. home grown music vs imported music .. home grown film vs imported film). Did anyone care in the long run? Nope.

This is just another form/wave of multiculturalism, exposure to a new set of cultures that are as strange to us as the American culture whould have been to our grand parents. We will get over it, life goes on

magpie

Our native culture is terrible anyway - give me a nice curry over Boxtie or Coddle any day of the week. Pass the popodoms.

bonkey

Snickers Man wrote:

Multiculturalism is a silly word. Just replace it with the word tolerance and then try and argue against it.

Careful what you wish for.

Liberal is rapidily becoming a dirty word from what I can tell. You'd find it hard to tell from looking at a dictionary.

Snickers Man

bonkey wrote:

Careful what you wish for.

Liberal is rapidily becoming a dirty word from what I can tell. You'd find it hard to tell from looking at a dictionary.

Take your point. But then I don't think Liberal was ever regarded as being a universally favourable term. It was always an alternative to those calling themselves Conservatives. Or Labour, or whatever.

But somebody calling themselves the 'Intolerant' party would probably start with a pretty big credibility deficit.

DadaKopf

Hey, how about this: I don't care. If everybody didn't care, maybe everyone would get along better. OH NO! THEY'RE TAKING OVER!!! Me arse.

Irish culture is what people practise, and if we all practised tolerance, openness, instead of sniping about a byword for exclusion, we'll never attain equality.

Step one for people in Ireland: be nice. Step two for Irish citizens - the legal term - is to vote out politicians who are introducing legislation (far beyond just Immigration legislation) that prevents an egalitarian environment in Ireland from developing.

It's down to people in Ireland themselves creating a culture of dignity and respect in their everyday interactions with people that'll solve the 'problem' of pluralism (I prefer 'pluralism'), but the state has a vital role, as an arm of the people, to use instruments at its disposal from making this whole process of localised globalisation much easier, and fun!

grubber

Snickers Man wrote:

That's bollox. The people who talk about 'multiculturalism' as if it's a new phenomenon tend to be those on the right. Especially the new right who are so tied up with the fantasy of the ubiquitously benign effects of market forces that they want to subjugate to them everything else--national boundaries, diverse tastes, unique identities--all these must go in the interests of a vast homogenising globalised market.

Multiculturalism: Bad! causes fragmented markets and diminishes opportunities for untrammeled growth.

Monoculturalism: Good! creates level playing field for the big boys to drive their tanks over gobbling up everything in their sights.

Drivel. If these mythical people are so bound up with market forces that they are prepared to subjugate all then they will also latch onto the ever-so-trendy concept of multiculturalism. Anything for a quick buck.

Snickers Man wrote:

That's the global view. Now in the context of peoples of differing race, creed, ethnicity etc living in the same place the word 'multiculturalism' is being used, by the right, as a pejorative term for what we used to call 'pluralism' or even more basically: 'tolerance'.

Have a look who complains most about multiculturalism. It tends to be the loony right people. Myers in Ireland. O'Reilly in America. The likes of Pim Fortuyn's gang in Holland.

.....Theo Van Gogh?

Snickers Man wrote:

The history of mankind has been one of people migrating and mingling from one region,country or continent to another and coming to terms with the pain of accomodating the differences with others. To attempt to denigrate efforts to tolerate each other's differences by coining a new term for a very old phomenon is dishonest, stupid, petty, self seeking, shortsighted and dangerous.

Hang on there. Who is coining this "new term"? As I said above Multiculturalism was invented by those loony-left, limp wristed liberal politically correct brainboxes who came to the realization that elements of some immigrant cultures have no intention of integrating.

I think my definition is more accurate than most I've seen.

Snickers Man wrote:

Multiculturalism is a silly word. Just replace it with the word tolerance and then try and argue against it.

At last we agree about something

grubber

All part of life's rich (Multicultural) tapestry

http://www.lse.co.uk/ShowStory.asp?story=WU2219945O&news_headline=convicted_murderer_guilty_of_killing_sisters_boyfriend

billy the squid

grubber wrote:

All part of life's rich (Multicultural) tapestry

http://www.lse.co.uk/ShowStory.asp?story=WU2219945O&news_headline=convicted_murderer_guilty_of_killing_sisters_boyfriend

for every foreign murder you find I'm sure i could find five irish ones
http://www.rte.ie/news/2003/1220/keanek.html

how is posting such an article reflective on the issue of multiculturalism though.

grubber

billy the squid wrote:

for every foreign murder you find I'm sure i could find five irish ones
http://www.rte.ie/news/2003/1220/keanek.html

how is posting such an article reflective on the issue of multiculturalism though.

5 Irish murders for every foreign one. My God, and the Gardai are still unarmed.

Merciful hour!

lazydaisy

billy the squid wrote:

Horse****e. the first thing the irish do when they go to america is find an "irish" pub. If the Irish intergrated as well as you claim there would be no such thing as the Irish pub anywhere in the world except ireland.

Yes, and NYC Irish bars are now filled with Irish talking about what a crap country American is and how stupid Americans are and what capitalists pigs they are and poor Saddham.... oh but isnt it great being here for the Christmas shopping....

They used to integrate [sort of] and now they take American money and look their pale freckled noses down at americans even when in America.

WK - that's true what you're saying about mulitculturalism being around for years with the presence of imported British and American culture, but the three nations share a history and a language together so it may not have the same feeling of having to compromise so much. Just as an example, when you no longer have Christmas off as a national holiday but have lets say Yom Kippur or Ramadan than you might feel it a little more.

When you see Asians, Arabs, and or Poles, other Europeans, Romanians, Africans and others representative of the developing and changing population in the Dail then you know you have acheived integration.

cyclopath2001

lazydaisy wrote:

Just as an example, when you no longer have Christmas off as a national holiday but have lets say Yom Kippur or Ramadan than you might feel it a little more.

Ramadan is not a holiday, it's a time of fasting, like Lent. Perhaps you mean Eid Al Fitr? I know many Muslims who celebrate Christmas with their Christian friends.....

lazydaisy wrote:

When you see Asians, Arabs, and or Poles, other Europeans, Romanians, Africans and others representative of the developing and changing population in the Dail then you know you have acheived integration.

Hopefully, they'll replace FF & the PDs.....

Zombrex

lazydaisy wrote:

They used to integrate [sort of] and now they take American money and look their pale freckled noses down at americans even when in America.

Don't you mean give America money, if they are over shopping at Christmas?

lazydaisy wrote:

WK - that's true what you're saying about mulitculturalism being around for years with the presence of imported British and American culture, but the three nations share a history and a language together so it may not have the same feeling of having to compromise so much.

They share a lanuage but thats about it, Irish culture in the 30,40,50 was miles away from American culture. We only think we are quite similar now because we have had years and years of multiculturalism washing on to our shores.

In 50 years our grandkids will probably be saying "What was the big deal, we are very similar to Middle Eastern people" Differences are only highlighted when they are strange and new, once you get used to them they don't seem like such a big deal. For example, British people were horrified when they found out how Americans actually talked in the 30 thanks to sound in the cinema. It was a massive issue. When rock and roll started being imported from America it was denounced as the final blow to culture in Ireland. Now all that sounds ridiculously silly

Even in modern times since the boom in imported workers from Europe, African and especially Asia people have been crying "Soon Irish culture will be second place in Ireland" ... yet this dooms day situation is always, strangley, just a few years off. People decrying foreign cultures entering Ireland are very clever never to actually mention a theory on when any of this bad stuff is going to happen, and that way they can never be proved wrong because it is always sometime in the future ... when is Islam law going to be introduced to Ireland?, how soon very soon! .. when are we going to have to learn Arabic?, soon very soon! .. when are all going to have to pause to pray to Meca?, oh soon very soon! They have learnt very well from the politics that the best way to keep people worried about a situation is to make sure it is always just about to happen. In reality we have had huge increases in other cultures living and working in Ireland, 15 years ok it was out of the ordinary if I was served by a Asian person in McDonalds, now I am surprised if I am served by an Irish person. But I am still waiting for all the terrible things multiculturalism is supposed to bring to happen.

lazydaisy wrote:

Just as an example, when you no longer have Christmas off as a national holiday but have lets say Yom Kippur or Ramadan than you might feel it a little more.

Won't make any difference to me .. a holiday is a holiday

lazydaisy wrote:

When you see Asians, Arabs, and or Poles, other Europeans, Romanians, Africans and others representative of the developing and changing population in the Dail then you know you have acheived integration.

I look forward to the day

mike65

lazydaisy wrote:

When you see Asians, Arabs, and or Poles, other Europeans, Romanians, Africans and others representative of the developing and changing population in the Dail then you know you have acheived integration.

If we could have more women and fewer school teachers that would be a start.

I belive some local councils already have ethinic minorities as members (and Clare has already had an ethnic Indian TD remember Dr Moosajee Bhamjee?) so over the next 10-15 years I'd expect to see a few in the Dail.

Mike.

saado

I don't particularily think that the problem here is multiculturalism as such, nor the fact that people from other cultures are even coming here. It's that they don't accept our own values but continue to expect that we respect theirs. It's often more a religious problem, where people come here from countries where they live in a complete theocracy, or where the laws/morals are governed by religion, much like Ireland was up until recently, and still is to a certain extent. Ireland is now, for all intents and purposes, a secular state, and when people come here from other counties, they should adhere to the laws and customs as much as possible, particularily where religion is concerned, let's be fair, if someone rolls out a prayer mat at work and goes through the daily ritual(i don't know if this even happens, but i'm just giving an example), we're to respect this as his "culture", however, if I were to take out rosary beads and start saying the rosary for 25minutes every day at work, I'd be fired or just told to cop on and get back to work.

Same with the traditional dress, if someone wants to wear the clothes, then that's all well and good, but it's not fair in a situation like a school or an office where everyone is expected to conform to a certain dress code, if someone is allowed to look different because their culture is different. If a woman were to travel to a muslim country and marry into a family with traditional values, then she'd be expected to conform, why is it so hard to ask that they conform to our own standards. Same as if an irishman were to go there and dare to drink alcohol, he'd be just as severely punished as anyone else would.

Schools are no different, i think that a catholic school should be allowed to teach religion from a catholic perspective, if you don't like it, go to a different school. Preferential treatment for children who may be muslim or jewish or whatever is a joke, fair enough, state schools should have no religion classes, but if you go to a private catholic school, then put up or go to the school that will acommodate you. I know you may say this is "segregation" or whatever, but the Catholic church owes nothing to people who don't want to participate in their religion, i'd hardly expect the same from a muslim or islamic school. They're there to teach the religion to people, if you don't like it, don't go to the schools/churches or whatever.
Anyway, my point if you can fathom it from the incoherent mess that was the previous three paragraphs, is this: Religion should be left at home or at your place of worship, not work, not school, regardless of what religion you practise.

mike65

Ireland is now, for all intents and purposes, a secular state,

Not true, if it were the schools sector would'nt be dominated by the Catholic faith to the tune of 98%.

i think that a catholic school should be allowed to teach religion from a catholic perspective, if you don't like it, go to a different school

See above

Ireland needs to become a secular state before it can be a multicultural one.

Mike

dathi1

The only place in the world I see multiculturalism working is in Singapore...and that's a dictatorship. Before that there was mass murder and inter ethnic riots. After that yes I agree its over rated. ...oh yes and Switzerland.....sorry jc

grubber

dathi1 wrote:

The only place in the world I see multiculturalism working is in Singapore...and that's a dictatorship. Before that there was mass murder and inter ethnic riots. After that yes I agree its over rated. ...oh yes and Switzerland.....sorry jc

Dathi1,
Would you agree another example of multiculturalism working was Yugoslavia before the death of Tito? If so then I think we might be on to something.

Macmorris

grubber wrote:

Would you agree another example of multiculturalism working was Yugoslavia before the death of Tito?

There's no need to look half way around the world for what we can easily find at home. We have a perfect example of the joys of multiculturalism in the north-eastern part of our own country.

Zombrex

saado wrote:

if I were to take out rosary beads and start saying the rosary for 25minutes every day at work, I'd be fired or just told to cop on and get back to work.

Sorry, but what the hell are you basing this on? What Irish companies allow religious breaks for Muslims but not for Christians? The only companies I have ever heard of allowing Muslim workers break for prayer did it by allowing Muslims to re-arrange their coffee breaks. Must companies have a system of breaks, that can be quite flexable or inflexable depending on the nature of the work. What you do with that break is largely up to you, be it rosary or praying to Meca

saado wrote:

Same with the traditional dress, if someone wants to wear the clothes, then that's all well and good, but it's not fair in a situation like a school or an office where everyone is expected to conform to a certain dress code, if someone is allowed to look different because their culture is different.

Again, examples. Which Irish companies that require business dress allow muslims to wear something that breaks the dress code, but not non-Muslims people?

saado wrote:

Same as if an irishman were to go there and dare to drink alcohol, he'd be just as severely punished as anyone else would.

Where is "there" .. I am aware of very few countries that ban drinking of alcohol.

saado wrote:

Schools are no different, i think that a catholic school should be allowed to teach religion from a catholic perspective, if you don't like it, go to a different school.

Er, they are and they do.

saado wrote:

Preferential treatment for children who may be muslim or jewish or whatever is a joke, fair enough, state schools should have no religion classes, but if you go to a private catholic school, then put up or go to the school that will acommodate you.

Again, what the hell are you talking about? What "preferential treatment" in a private school? Has this ever actually happened?

Zombrex

dathi1 wrote:

The only place in the world I see multiculturalism working is in Singapore...and that's a dictatorship. Before that there was mass murder and inter ethnic riots. After that yes I agree its over rated. ...oh yes and Switzerland.....sorry jc

Define "working" ...

dathi1

Define "working" ...

Working: Singapore. Everybody living in peace and harmony because if you don't you end up in Changi Prison.
Switzerland.
Not working: The USA (the most ethnically divided society I've ever seen), Canada (looks like a good example but underlying French separatist pressure remember the last elections not to mention the "attempted sharia law implementation. The UK (need we say more) France...ye know...oh Iraq is now heading in the direction of a multicultural society too.....You aint seen nothin yet!

lazydaisy

Sorry WK-I meant the Irish who are on American salaries in that instance- but now that you mention it there are also the Irish who take all the American money for their "cross-border" projects.

I never understood that about certain immigrants, my parents did it too - raised their kids in the same country they spit on and call stupid.????

Ok you may not mind taking off another holiday instead of Christmas [not that there is any likely hood of that happenning anyway], but many people would be annoyed. Ireland is still very very Catholic outside of Dublin.

WK many Irish have family in America and Britain so they share more than just a language. Their histories are linked and they also share religion and being western. The two nations are a part of the Irish diaspora. Sharing a language is not to be dismissed lightly. It is a big deal. But yes, once people get used to things they don't seem so different.

Whats so funny about what you said about British people being shocked at how Americans sounded in film, is that those speech affectations of te 40s and 50s were completely false. Americans dont talk like and never did. The actors were sent to elocution school so they could learn to speak in a far more anglicised way.

Zombrex

dathi1 wrote:

Working: Singapore. Everybody living in peace and harmony because if you don't you end up in Changi Prison.
Switzerland.
Not working: The USA (the most ethnically divided society I've ever seen), Canada (looks like a good example but underlying French separatist pressure remember the last elections not to mention the "attempted sharia law implementation. The UK (need we say more) France...ye know...oh Iraq is now heading in the direction of a multicultural society too.....You aint seen nothin yet!

That is ridiculous, under that definition hardly any countries were "working", even the ones without much foriegn culture. Was Ireland "working" before the 90s? Was everyone living in peace and harmony? No crime, no problems, everyone was happy and smiling. Funny, don't remember that part. Maybe I need to buy a new pair of rose-tinted glasses

Zombrex

lazydaisy wrote:

Ok you may not mind taking off another holiday instead of Christmas [not that there is any likely hood of that happenning anyway], but many people would be annoyed. Ireland is still very very Catholic outside of Dublin.

True, but that would have to change to have an Islamic holiday made the primary holiday instead of Christmas, and if the vast majority of people didn't mind, who am I to object. I am not religious but I have no problem with Christmas being a national holiday because the majority of the country is. So if that majority of the country were Islamic or Jewish I would have no problem with the country impliementing holidays around that calendar. I don't think this is ever going to happen though.

lazydaisy wrote:

WK many Irish have family in America and Britain so they share more than just a language.

Many Irish people have family and friends in Saudi Arabia, in Asia, in Australia etc. At the moment I know 3 people in S.A and 2 in Buiran (sp?). None of my friends are in America.

I accept what you are saying that we are close to America, but that was not always the case. It happened because of immigration, and multiculturalism. American culture is not strange and foreign to us as it was 200 or 100 years ago. Which is one of the reason why I don't fear multiculturalism, it brings people together, makes the world smaller. I doubt in 100 years anyone in Ireland will find Arab or Asia people in Ireland strange or scary.

lazydaisy wrote:

Whats so funny about what you said about British people being shocked at how Americans sounded in film, is that those speech affectations of te 40s and 50s were completely false. Americans dont talk like and never did. The actors were sent to elocution school so they could learn to speak in a far more anglicised way.

Well that is true that hollywood actors when to speech classes (as poked fun in "Singing in the Rain" ), but many early "talkie" films had strong american accents, were set in America and featured american story-lines. Even a movie like Hells Angels where the actors were playing English men made little attempt to hide their obvious American accents. Movies like "River of Romance" (1929) made no attempt to hide the Southern American accents and slang. It seems funny now, but British audiences were genuinely shocked at hearing the accents of their favourate stars.

Macmorris

Wicknight wrote:

Was Ireland "working" before the 90s?

Yes, it was. A country is "working" if it can provide security and defence for its citizens. By that standard the republic of Ireland was definitely working before the 90s.

Was everyone living in peace and harmony?

Most people were. The only people who weren't were those people who had the great fortune to be born in the multicultural north-eastern part of the country.

Hibernian2005

France is a harbinger of things to come if we don't control the influx of cheap labour and Islamic fundamentalists into our country.

I would also like to pose a question to those who oppose a United Ireland, but who support mass migration:

How do you reconcile your claims that we cannot afford an increased population from absorbing NI, with your claims that we can afford huge numbers of immigrants?

billy the squid

Hibernian2005 wrote:

France is a harbinger of things to come if we don't control the influx of cheap labour and Islamic fundamentalists into our country.

Your theory is flawed in that the troubles occouring in France has little to do with cheap labour, If you are referring to the riots, they were caused by poor intergration and unemployment amongst immigrants in France.

I would also like to pose a question to those who oppose a United Ireland, but who support mass migration:

How do you reconcile your claims that we cannot afford an increased population from absorbing NI, with your claims that we can afford huge numbers of immigrants?

Compare the percentage of immigrants on the dole to the number of people in Northern Ireland on the dole, and you will have your answer

Also you will have half the population of northern ireland (unionists) who would be a disruptive element in the country if we were to take on the north.

Hibernian2005

billy the squid wrote:

Your theory is flawed in that the troubles occouring in France has little to do with cheap labour, If you are referring to the riots, they were caused by poor intergration and unemployment amongst immigrants in France.



Compare the percentage of immigrants on the dole to the number of people in Northern Ireland on the dole, and you will have your answer

Also you will have half the population of northern ireland (unionists) who would be a disruptive element in the country if we were to take on the north.

The % unemployment rate in NI is arout 3.6%, which is lower than down here. The problem is that so many Northerners are employed in the public-sector, which accounts for 63% of economic output compared to 37% down here. Privatisation would resolve that, as would the trimming of bureaucracy that we are seeing in plans to merge the 26 district councils into just 7.

The thesis that Unionists would refuse to accept a United Ireland if voted for in the North is pure speculation, since we have not arrived at that position yet. It is not a thesis I would accept, considering the war-weariness of people up there, and the fact that 73% of NI Protestants say they would accept a UI if a majority up there voted for it.

In any case, what would the aim be of any uprising by former Unionists after a United Ireland?