Multiculturalism = a total crock of poo

Hobbes

lazydaisy wrote:

Hobbes, I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say. Koreans, Japanese, and Chinese are Asians, just as Irish, Germans, and French are European. What's your point? These all refer to nationalities, not race. Race is specifically about skin colour. I think your confusing cultures/tribes/nationhoods with race.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=race&db=*
1. A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.
2. A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.
3. A genealogical line; a lineage.
4. Humans considered as a group.
5. Biology.
1. An interbreeding, usually geographically isolated population of organisms differing from other populations of the same species in the frequency of hereditary traits. A race that has been given formal taxonomic recognition is known as a subspecies.
2. A breed or strain, as of domestic animals.


No where does it say Skin colour. Skin color would be only one factor. As I said different people may share a same skin color but can have completly different traits, even within the same country.

The Irish immigrants who fled to America were probably also considered repellant by mother Ireland. It is their descendants who reaped the rewards of immigration.

Most people left Ireland because they couldn't feed themselves and had choices of starving or going into hard labour.

with other kids who have unsavory northside accents, will fare when their kids are going to school with a bunch of children who dont know English.

Then they can learn no? It might even be a way to increase the usage of the Irish language. Whats wrong with Northside accents?

cyclopath2001

grubber wrote:

And Wedgewood Pottery is an Irish company (Waterford Glass)

And Waterford Glass was originally based on the skills of Czech craftsmen.....

Snickers Man

cyclopath2001 wrote:

And Waterford Glass was originally based on the skills of Czech craftsmen.....

And it's now based on machines. They don't train humans how to blow glass any more. The few traditional blowers that are left are only there to show off to the tourists and just about everywhere there were once skilled polishers, cutters etc (there are still a few) there are now precision machines which do it all so much cheaper.

Not long before that gets outsourced back to Eastern Europe whence it came.

spooiirt!!

Im not Irish but i want Ireland to protect its culture. I dont like the thought of getting on a Dart where half of the passengers are wearing towels on their heads and reading the Quran out loud. If European countries continue this way theyll lose their individuality. Of course thats what the left wants. Especially here in Germany. German politician and former 1960s & 70s protester, streetfighter and squatter Joscka Fischer openly said that he wants to change Germanys culture. He said we still have too many ties to the third Reich as well as Prussian nationalism. we still sing too many German songs, have German shepard dogs, still learn too many traditional German fairytales as children, and celebrate our traditional holidays in a "too-German way".

Its gonna be a pretty boring world when every country is the same.

P.S. Some stats
In germany foreigners make up 9% of the Population
They account for 12% of the unemployed, for 23% of Social-welfare recipients, and lastly (and most disturbingly) 50% of the prison population.

Zombrex

ciaran13 wrote:

all crosses and religous paintings removed from the schools they founded but hijabs will be allowed??

I'm sorry I must have missed the email about France and Italy being the same country :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Zombrex

spooiirt!! wrote:

I dont like the thought of getting on a Dart where half of the passengers are wearing towels on their heads and reading the Quran out loud.

Yeah because that is what Arabian countries are like ... :rolleyes:

Zombrex

lazydaisy wrote:

You cant compare Irish immigration to America with current immigration in Europe.

You can compare the anti-multicultural arguments (they spread crime, they are religious fanatics, destruction of culture, violent and drunken, not willing to intergrate etc) completely with the attitudes towards Irish in America Britian and Austrialia 150 years ago.

The arguments are pretty much exactly the same, it is just Arabs and Muslims on the recieving end now instead of Irish and Blacks.

spooiirt!!

Thats almost what its like here in Germany. All the women wear towels on their heads ( naturally they always have kids with them). When i go out on a saturday night i see almost as many Turkish teenagers as i see Germans.
thats too much.

Zombrex

spooiirt!! wrote:

All the women wear towels on their heads ( naturally they always have kids with them).

All the women here were gold crosses ... would you take offense at that?

spooiirt!! wrote:

When i go out on a saturday night i see almost as many Turkish teenagers as i see Germans.

You don't like Turkish people?

annR

I have some German friends who are also not happy about the amount of Turkish people in Germany. I have to say I can see their point. They walk down streets where they used to play when they were growing up and it's all Turkish now. There really are a lot of Turks in Germany. I think Germany has been very tolerant about it. Having said that, correct me if I'm wrong, the Turks were brought in after WW II to help rebuild Germany.

It just seems to me that Ireland is at the start of all this and that immigrants are coming whether we like it or not, and we can try to do it right and get the best out of it or we can make a balls of it. Surely including them and making them genuinely care about this country is better for us in the long run than walling them off somewhere and breeding discontent and resentment.

Hobbes

spooiirt!! wrote:

I dont like the thought of getting on a Dart where half of the passengers are wearing towels on their heads

That would be Hindus, not Muslims. Ever think of getting a car? Or actually researching what you are prejudiced about.

growler

lazydaisy wrote:

European nations have had their customs and codes solidified for centuries. Its much harder for Europe in this way. They also have a sense of kinship, which is why more socialist economic policy worked for them, but when you have to live with people "outside your tribe" I'm not sure these values are remain functional.

The Irish immigrants who fled to America were probably also considered repellant by mother Ireland. It is their descendants who reaped the rewards of immigration.

What will surely be fascinating to watch in the upcoming years with the swelling of immigration into Ireland, the outpouring of Irish young professionals who cant afford to live there anymore because of escalating costs, is how these parents who don't even like their children going to school with other kids who have unsavory northside accents, will fare when their kids are going to school with a bunch of children who dont know English. Ireland need to work on its classicm before it can even go near dealing with multiculturalism.

European kinship developed over centuries ? I think such kinship is purely superficial, within any European nation you have distinct tribes / cultures/ religions: flemish, basques, irish protestants, kurds, welsh, bretagne, gaelic speakers, sicilians, corsicans, jews, catalans etc. the only thing that held them all together under a single "flag" was military power and centuries of conquest and domination. The idea that a nation is homogenous even within European "nation states" is flawed. Differences between cultures of the conquered and conquering were ruthlessly eradicated, those who champioined their differences were killed. Perhaps those who advocate instant integration would rather we take such a medieval approach to integration?

A lot of European cultures have been forced to live beside those with different languages, skin pigments, cultures for centuries, we are now experiencing the next phase of integration, fotunately it is happening peacefully. In this age of globalisation it is inevitable that people will immigrate, cultures will mix, and that the human race will be better for it ultimately.

"The Irish immigrants who fled to America were probably also considered repellant by mother Ireland"
That's the most incredible statement I've read in this thread, read some history. :mad:


"Ireland need to work on its classism before it can even go near dealing with multiculturalism"
Ireland needs to work on it's education system if it is still producing adults who hold such prejudiced, bigoted, racist, zenophobic attitudes that some of the posters here have espoused. At least going to school with non-nationals or those who do not conform to the "Pure Blood Paddy" (tm) stereotype might contribute to more of the next generation of Irish not being so backward in their world view.

Captain Trips

spooiirt!! wrote:

Its gonna be a pretty boring world when every country is the same.

And it will be a world very easily manipulated when people have no cultural or national identity to be part of. It will make it easy to control populations and work society to the "lowest common denominator".

annR

Like the big corporations are doing.

Captain Trips

growler wrote:

European kinship developed over centuries ? I think such kinship is purely superficial, within any European nation you have distinct tribes / cultures/ religions: flemish, basques, irish protestants, kurds, welsh, bretagne, gaelic speakers, sicilians, corsicans, jews, catalans etc. the only thing that held them all together under a single "flag" was military power and centuries of conquest and domination.

You'll find that was called the Holy ROman Empire, and lasted around 1000 years, also known as the First Reich although I'm sure modern history books don't refer to it as that. Have a look even at the Wikipedia entry.

A lot of European cultures have been forced to live beside those with different languages, skin pigments, cultures for centuries, we are now experiencing the next phase of integration, fotunately it is happening peacefully. In this age of globalisation it is inevitable that people will immigrate, cultures will mix, and that the human race will be better for it ultimately.

ANd I think it's fair to say there are limits to how much "integration" can happen before problems arise. Yes it happening peacefully, in for example, France. And in the Balkans. And in Sweden. Oh yes and in South Africa. And of course, the bastions of multiculturalism - in the US where things in New Orleans went down just dandy . ANd the UK, for example in the peaceful suburbs of Englands 2nd city Birmingham where Asians and Africans live in total harmony.

Lay off the weed, friend. You've missed the past year.

Ireland needs to work on it's education system if it is still producing adults who hold such prejudiced, bigoted, racist, zenophobic attitudes that some of the posters here have espoused.

Now that's the response of someone who's run out of reasonable responses and insulting. Plenty of people here have experience good and bad of multicutluralism. Dublin is a superb city these days because of it - I suspect it's because we have not had a large increase in population from non-white and non-Christian countries. The trouble spots always arise when there is a large divide in ethnicity and religion.

Racism exists because different races exist. You won't change people's opinions unless you get rid of race, and that won't happen. Neither is it xenophobic to discuss the large problems that have occurred in areas which have experienced "integration". Calling it prejudiced is living in a world where you don't see reality.

Multiculturalism between Poles, Estonias and IRish IMHO works without the problems that have arisen between Turksih Muslims and Scandinavians, Africans and Asians, etc., . IF you think one size fits all, well, you already decided your opinion. I guess that make you prejudiced.

At least going to school with non-nationals or those who do not conform to the "Pure Blood Paddy" (tm) stereotype might contribute to more of the next generation of Irish not being so backward in their world view.

Multiculturalism has never worked where the main change must come from 99% of the native population. To ask the 99% to change for the incoming 1% is a formula for failure. Better to ask the 1% to change to the 99% - not for convenience, but because its more likely to work. The change is more difficult when it's different races and religions, which is why Ireland has become a very pleasant experience these days, but I imaging if it was 200,000 Turksih Muslims like in Austria or Sweden, it would be a very different matter for us, as it was for them.

Hobbes

Captain Trips wrote:

You'll find that was called the Holy ROman Empire, and lasted around 1000 years, also known as the First Reich although I'm sure modern history books don't refer to it as that. Have a look even at the Wikipedia entry.

[/QUOTE]

Only referred to as such by one particular group of people.

Snickers Man

spooiirt!! wrote:

Its gonna be a pretty boring world when every country is the same.

Yeah that's monoculturalism, not multiculturalism, you're talking about there.

Don't you learn Greek in Germany?

grubber

Wicknight wrote:

Irish immigrants were hated, absolutely hated, in America Britian and Austrialia when they first arrived. They were linked with crime, disease and drunkness. As I pointed out in my previous posts it was a widely held belief that the Irish were closely related to "negros" (Africans) who were largely slaves or considered primative sub-humans. Signs saying "No blacks, No Irish" were common in all resturants and pubs in New York, Chicago etc

America as you call it, and Australia were originally British colonies. Do you see a common element in this? In other words these were the same people (and their descendants) who were ordered by Royal decree during the Penal Laws and after to make life as hard as possible for the Catholic Irish.

Needless to say these people were the top administrators, newspaper owners etc throughout the British colonies. As well as at home in "old Blighty".
What chance did the poor, hungry and disposessed Irish have against such a powerful foe?

So I don't accept that Irish people were "widely" believed to be sub-human. I believe it had much more to do with the influence of the so called "great and the good", and their funny handshakes. Indeed it is truly astounding how the Irish withstood this "guided" hatred and prospered. They are today a highly respected section of the population in each of the countries you mention

Zombrex

grubber wrote:

What chance did the poor, hungry and disposessed Irish have against such a powerful foe?

About as much chance as muslim immigrants get today I would imagine .. oh wait I forgot, the muslim deserve the reputation they have this time round .. :rolleyes:

grubber wrote:

So I don't accept that Irish people were "widely" believed to be sub-human.

Well its true. Whether you accept that or not has very little to do with anything.

grubber wrote:

I believe it had much more to do with the influence of the so called "great and the good", and their funny handshakes.

And the fear, racism and doomsday preaching going on today is based on fact and common sense?? :rolleyes:

grubber wrote:

Indeed it is truly astounding how the Irish withstood this "guided" hatred and prospered.

Replace "Irish" with "Muslims" are you might begin to see the point I am making ...

growler

Captain Trips wrote:

Lay off the weed, friend. You've missed the past year.

and

Now that's the response of someone who's run out of reasonable responses and insulting.

and

It will make it easy to control populations and work society to the "lowest common denominator".

.

I think you may be suffering from paranoid delusions if you think that multi culturalism is a ploy by corporations to rule the world. I would suggest you lay off the pyschedelics.

The specific instances you cite above, France, Sweden, South Africa (lol) , Birmingham , are not examples of why multiculturalism is bad / wrong / unworkable they are just examples of how if you fail to plan properly for integration and create ghettoes you may well find that the people you marginalise get unhappy. It's not a factor of "how much integration you can have before problems arise" it's more to do with how well you plan for and manage the integration of others.

Europe has huge immigrant non white, often non christian population yet for the majority of the time they function well within their adopted homes, integrate, adapt and add to society. Second and third generations often feel as British / German / French as their white conterparts, if they are not it may well be due to a failure of the state to properly allow them to integrate by fostering a society that accepts and tolerates differences and recognises that they add to cultures not the opposite.

Why you think South Africa is an example of a multicultural society is beyond me. Why you think New Orleans is an example of a failed multicultural society is similarly opaque.

growler

grubber wrote:

America as you call it, and Australia were originally British colonies. Do you see a common element in this? In other words these were the same people (and their descendants) who were ordered by Royal decree during the Penal Laws and after to make life as hard as possible for the Catholic Irish.

so Americans, a generation after their independence from the British retained a deeply ingrained hated of Irish due to a royal decree ? hmmm

Zombrex

growler wrote:

so Americans, a generation after their independence from the British retained a deeply ingrained hated of Irish due to a royal decree ? hmmm

I'm glad someone else thought that was as silly as I did ...

The hatred of the Irish was down to wide spread stereotypical, racist, and religious views based on fear and ignorance (pretty much exactly the same as muslims face today). This was reflected from man on the street to the royal family

To say the racism against Irish was based solely on the establishment picking on them is completely missing the point. Of course the establishment picked on them, just like the Star running reports about asylum seekers getting cars. But everyone picked on them. This would undoubtable effect the man on the street.

growler

well hundreds of thousands of them were let loose on the streets of the US, the majoity were starving, illiterate, spoke a different language, looked different with their strange red hair, freckles and pasty skin, they probably did all they could to survive (including crime) , they tended to stick together for comfort, most had never been in a city of any size before , they were fleeing famine and an oppressive government, they stuck out like a sore thumb.

No similarities with current emmigrants at all.

lazydaisy

There is nothing wrong with northside accents. But there are plenty of Dublin parents around who send their kids to private schools just so they are not socialised with children who come from working class families. So I'm guessing if their are parents who dont even like their kids socialising with kids from their own nation they wont want them socialising with kids from foreign ones.

grubber - before you get too offended by what I said. I will remind you that the Irish who landed in America in the late 19th to early 20th centuries, were eating out of garbage, were taking jobs no one else would, and were considered the bottom of the barrel. They were dirty and filthy. Even up to the 70s, the immigrants who came to the US were often working class people who couldnt get served in a restaurant in Dublin because of the blatant snobbery that existed there at the time. So thats what freedom meant to them, being able to be served in a restaurant. Did Ireland care much for them? I doubt it, despite her emigres working themselves to the bone just to send money home for it to be stuffed under mattresses by distant contemptuous cousins. Did Ireland care about all the illegitemate children that were shipped off to be adopted by American families? Hardly. She still doesnt care. Having to leave, being forced out by classicm, nepotism, and sometimes morality [because they got pregnant out of wedlock or their mothers did] many of the emigrant population were not wanted by the motherland. So yes, I would call that being repellant to your motherland, one that cant and wont feed you for whatever reasons she decided. I think maybe you should read some history. Or talk to some of the population that hemmoraged out of Ireland. You clearly have no idea.

What really gets me about the whole "unwilling to integrate" argument is that there is nothing to make it even the slightest bit easy for them to do so that especially outside of Dublin. Irish people are tribal, suspicious, dont like foreigners, and the women have to know you for 20 years before they'll even sit down for a drink with you. There are all these inside jokes in the culture. There is an entire subtext to the official and unofficial realities in Ireland so anyone who did not grow up here will most likely feel they are always losing at a poker game.

Captain Trips -Please do not bring up New Orleans and Katrina. That is not an example of multi-culturalism. The black population of New Orleans are AMERICAN. They have been in America since the foundations of the nation and have made invaluable contributions to the culture. The problems of Katrina are a totally different issue.

AS far as Irish integration in Britain and the US, it is usually the descendants who integrate, and as far as I have gathered it has been much harder for the Irish in Britain because of the fear that the troubles brought. But yes, that is true, the Irish were thought of as dirty and drunk in both nations. The new Irish who come to the US are leaving a different but just as dodgy set of footprints. You can go to any Irish pub in NYC or Boston and hear a lot of talk about how crappy America is and how dumb Americans are. The J1 visas come over drink a lot and destroy property. Its happenning enough that a reputation is developing. So, you can how well that integration is going!

spooiirt!!

Actually what we have here is Bi-culturalism. Christians from Poland and Russia and nearby countries, and Muslims from Turkey and nearby countries.


"All the women here were gold crosses ... would you take offense at that?"

No, because that is part of Irelands culture, and something that should be supported and protected in Ireland. Just like Turkish culture should be supported in Turkey.

"You don't like Turkish people?"


I dont like the fact that there are so many of them here. I dont like the fact that they dont integrate themselves in our society. ( i dont blame them, i blame the politicians who allow so many of them into the country that they all have their own districts and blocks, so that they dont have to hurry to learn the language., and that there arent enough teachers to teach all their children German.)

"That would be Hindus, not Muslims. Ever think of getting a car? Or actually researching what you are prejudiced about."

The "towels" im referring to are the yokes that Muslim women have to wear on their heads. Prejudiced? nope. Prejudiced would mean that i think they are lesser people than me. I simply dont want that many of them here.

" Having said that, correct me if I'm wrong, the Turks were brought in after WW II to help rebuild Germany."

Yep. Nothing wrong with that. But when there is no more economic growth in a country, theres no longer any need to import poor people from other countries.

lazydaisy

I will also remind grubber that America was originally a series of British, Dutch, and Spanish colonies. [Since someone mentioned New Orleans, I can add French to that list]. I guess you're reading British history books.

Solair

This anti-immigration nonsense is ridiculous. People have been coming to Ireland for millenia. We're vikings, celts, anglo-saxons, normans etc..

There are certain fundemental values in Ireland which aren't what you would describe as cultural. e.g. human rights, democracy, land ownership, freedom etc. These are enshrined in our constitution and legal system. We're a secular Republic (despite all the church interference in the 1930s through to the 1960s) and that's something that's is incrediably unlikely to change.

Cultural differences have existed on this island for as long as there have been people on this island.

It all depends on how you are going to define "culture"... it's a very all encompassing fuzzy term that gets used and misused to prove points all the time.

What is "Irish Culture" ? ... It's definitely something that's been in a constant state of flux. It's regularly confused with some notion of conservative rural catholicism which isn't really a culture. It's was just the main force in social debate in Ireland for a chunk of the 19th and first half of the 20th centuries. Irish culture has changed before and will continue to evolve and change. We've adopted aspects of "world culture" that have come from our historical connections to the Britain, Europe and North America. It will adapt, morph and change to take on-board aspects of culture from people who immigrate to Ireland.

Undoubtedly people immigrating into Ireland will also have to adapt to the exsisting Irish culture, social and political norms etc. but it's a give and take scenario. Forcing someone to be Irish is a ridiculous notion. The key is that we built upon our existing legal / constitutional / social structure in such a way that it can adapt, be compatable with and accept cultural changes and people from other cultural groups without undermining our fundemental rights and political / social systems.

I think we need to ensure that we're not so obcessed with being politically correct that we alter anything that impacts upon fundemental human rights to appease any group (immigrant population, religious communities etc etc). Those basic standards MUST apply to everyone. Let's not forget that our pre-existing religious institutions i.e. the catholic church clashed head to head with Irish civic society and lost. There is absolutely no reason why we wouldn't stand up against any single group who attempted to undermine the rule of law / democracy.

What is going to be very important in Ireland is parity of esteem. i.e. that all people, regardless of background/national origin /religious beliefs are treated equally and given the respect that they deserve. However, that shouldn't mean that we need to change any of the fundementals of being a democratic republic!

We also need to make sure that the fundementals that underpin our human rights, civil liberties etc are firmly protected and further enhanced.

On one practical point.. the Irish education system doesn't reflect cultural / social norms in Ireland and is going to be a MAJOR sticking point. We need to set up a non-religious school system a.s.a.p. to reflect shifts in Irish culture. This isn't just because of immigration, there are many parents who don't necessarily want to send their kids to a be educated in a religious environment. There will be increasing pressure as non christian populations rise and don't have proper educational facilities!

Zombrex

Well said Solair

grubber

lazydaisy wrote:

I will also remind grubber that America was originally a series of British, Dutch, and Spanish colonies. [Since someone mentioned New Orleans, I can add French to that list]. I guess you're reading British history books.

Interesting point. Thank you for making it. Actually I had thought the Dutch colonies were handed over to the British quite early on. Either way it would be useful to compare how the Irish fared in Dutch, Spanish or French controlled areas.

Zombrex

spooiirt!! wrote:

No, because that is part of Irelands culture, and something that should be supported and protected in Ireland. Just like Turkish culture should be supported in Turkey.

So you don't have an objection to people being overtly religious, so long as it is the correct religion? Not sure how that makes sense...

spooiirt!! wrote:

I dont like the fact that there are so many of them here.

Why though? What difference does it make to you? Do you feel intimdated or threated because the stranger sitting beside you on the bus, or buying a drink beside you in a night club, looks Turkish instead of German?

spooiirt!! wrote:

The "towels" im referring to are the yokes that Muslim women have to wear on their heads.

Muslim women don't wear towels on their heads. Arab men wear strong cloth wrapped around their heads to protect themselves from the heat and sun, which is where the negative slur "towel head" came from. If you are going to insult a culture of people try to get the details correct.

spooiirt!! wrote:

Yep. Nothing wrong with that. But when there is no more economic growth in a country, theres no longer any need to import poor people from other countries.

Isn't that like saying we should not visit our relatives in America? All my friends have lived and worked in Amercia from time to time. You can't just import a load of people and then expect them to forget forever their families left behind.