Multiculturalism = a total crock of poo

cyclopath2001

grubber wrote:

It looks like we have to learn all the correct terms for the garb our immigrants wear. I guess we will also have courses being set up to explain their customs and particular "needs".

No need to do a course on it. It's really a matter of showing respect for others. They in return, will show you respect.

I was at a dinner once in a Muslim country. The hosts were Muslim. They offered me a beer, saying: "just because we do not drink, does not mean you can't."

GuanYin

Endearing to watch the 7-8 year old girl speaking Irish on the late late toy show!

Zombrex

grubber wrote:

I guess we will also have courses being set up to explain their customs and particular "needs".

I think if you don't know the difference between a towel and a scarf there are "special" courses you can be apart of ...

cyclopath2001

Wicknight wrote:

I think if you don't know the difference between a towel and a scarf there are "special" courses you can be apart of ...

Or maybe the person was not Muslim, but an African Christian wearing an elaborate head-dress?

grubber

Wicknight wrote:

I think if you don't know the difference between a towel and a scarf there are "special" courses you can be apart of ...

"you can be apart of .."

Yes I forgot that you might be the best person to advise on such "special" courses. While you're at it have you considered enrolling in an English Language course as well?

grubber

cyclopath2001 wrote:

No need to do a course on it. It's really a matter of showing respect for others. They in return, will show you respect.

I was at a dinner once in a Muslim country. The hosts were Muslim. They offered me a beer, saying: "just because we do not drink, does not mean you can't."

I wonder if Ken Bigley was offered a beer before he was beheaded in "a Muslim Country"?; or if the 4 Christian Activists currently being held hostage will report a similar level of hospitality?

dathi1

I am comparing immigration to a city that at the time was 2 miles squared, to a country that has a disproportiantly small native population

So everybody who entered Ellis island stayed within a 2 mile radius?? get real.

I was at a dinner once in a Muslim country. The hosts were Muslim. They offered me a beer, saying: "just because we do not drink, does not mean you can't."

Nothing wrong with that. But in Multicultural Britain local councils with significant Muslim populations are already banning Christmas decorations in their area and in some cases the word happy Christmas is being taken off the scene altogether. Hey its even getting to the stage where flying the Saint Georges Cross of England can be seen as affront to immigrants. One of a multitude of anti native culture aspects that's being implemented across Europe by these people that DON'T LIVE AND LET LIVE.

Regarding genetics

forget it we're talking about Multiculturalism here.

grubber

dathi1 wrote:

So everybody who entered Ellis island stayed within a 2 mile radius?? get real.
Nothing wrong with that. But in Multicultural Britain local councils with significant Muslim populations are already banning Christmas decorations in their area and in some cases the word happy Christmas is being taken off the scene altogether. Hey its even getting to the stage where flying the Saint Georges Cross of England can be seen as affront to immigrants. One of a multitude of anti native culture aspects that's being implemented across Europe by these people that DON'T LIVE AND LET LIVE. forget it we're talking about Multiculturalism here.

Dudley Council in the West Midlands have banned Winnie the Pooh tissue boxes. Apparently a female member of staff (of guess which faith) was "offended" by these because they had a picture of a little pig on them.
You couldn't make it up!

growler

dathi1 wrote:

But in Multicultural Britain local councils with significant Muslim populations are already banning Christmas decorations in their area and in some cases the word happy Christmas is being taken off the scene altogether.

Hey its even getting to the stage where flying the Saint Georges Cross of England can be seen as affront to immigrants. One of a multitude of anti native culture aspects that's being implemented across Europe by these people that DON'T LIVE AND LET LIVE. forget it we're talking about Multiculturalism here.

I haven't seen anything about councils banning christma decorations in muslim areas, wouldn't be entirely surprising though... in the US "happy christmas" has morphed into "seasons greetings" over the last 20 years or so so as not to offend their non Christian communities. At the same time, I know lots of non Christian families that celebrate "christmas" without having any interest in celebrating the birth of Christ. I agree though that there is a danger of western goverrnments becoming over appeasing to immigrant communities to the detriment of their own native culture and traditions, this seems to be largely due to a more vocal and politically astute muslim voice in many areas. Curiously enough this seems to have come about due to the war on terrorism which motivated muslim communities to take an active interest in uk politics that they didn't seem to have before.

Personally I have no time for changing native customs to appease those who follow strict islamic creeds, in fact I think that a secular multicultural west should actively strive to limit the influence of all religions on our daily lives.

Also, i'm not entirely surprised that the St. George's Cross might be seen as objectionable, but I would think that has more to do with the that flag being claimed by more right wing groups of late. Any links to this ?

cyclopath2001

grubber wrote:

I wonder if Ken Bigley was offered a beer before he was beheaded in "a Muslim Country"?; or if the 4 Christian Activists currently being held hostage will report a similar level of hospitality?

There are good Muslims and there bad Muslims, just like there are good Christians and bad Christians.

George Bush is a Christian, that doesn't mean that all Christians are bad. The people who kill Ken Bigley were bad. That does not make all Muslims bad.

What's important is not to judge people for the actions of others or to be misled by the hysterical rantings of bigots. That happened, years ago, to the Irish in Britain.

As people who've suffered from sectarian discrimination & oppression, we should be the first to recognose the symptoms among ourselves.

Zombrex

grubber wrote:

I wonder if Ken Bigley was offered a beer before he was beheaded in "a Muslim Country"?; or if the 4 Christian Activists currently being held hostage will report a similar level of hospitality?

I wonder if the 170 doctors and nurses who have been killed or injured in the US by anti-abortion groups were feeling the hopsitality of "a Christian country"

I certainly think we should be calling for a ban on all Christians entering the country, or at least Christians from Amercia. They are clearly terrorist, they bring there far right extreme views into this country (also via the web, which is easy to access by anyone don't you know) and spread a message of hate.

Down with this sort of thing! Careful now...

Zombrex

dathi1 wrote:

So everybody who entered Ellis island stayed within a 2 mile radius?? get real.

Actually yeah the vast majority did, especially amoung the Irish ...

dathi1 wrote:

Muslim populations are already banning Christmas decorations in their area and in some cases the word happy Christmas is being taken off the scene altogether.

Stop the press!! Muslims ban Christmas!! ... oh wait, no they didn't

I think you will actually find that any time some PC nut job tries to bring in a plan to de-religionise Christmas holidays Muslim community leaders are the first to point out that it is nonsense ...

Austrialian Hearld Sun wrote:

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,17309442%25255E2862,00.html
... Muslim leaders have criticised the promotion of a secular Christmas instead of religious celebrations as political correctness gone mad..

WorldNetDaily wrote:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36247
..Many see the measure as the latest attempt to "de-Christianize" Christmas, and at least one prominent Muslim leader in Scotland ridiculed the ban.
"If somebody doesn't want to listen to this, they don't have to. This is political correctness gone mad," Bashir Maan told the Scotsman...

BBC wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/2597481.stm
..leading British Muslim Labour peer Lord Ahmed said it was "stupid" to think other faiths would be offended by Christian symbols...

pete

growler wrote:

in the US "happy christmas" has morphed into "seasons greetings" over the last 20 years or so so as not to offend their non Christian communities.

I've always thought this is to be a purely commercial decision made by businesses, with more to do with choosing not to exclude potential non-Christian customers and their cash than any PC-driven desire to avoid offence.

It's far easier to say "Happy Holidays" than to say "Happy Christmas, Happy Hannukah, Happy Kwanzaa & Happy anything / anyone we left out", after all.

samb

I agree pete, besides what is wrong with all humans celebrating something together for change? seems like a strange thing to object to

bonkey

dathi1 wrote:

But in Multicultural Britain local councils with significant Muslim populations are already banning Christmas decorations in their area and in some cases the word happy Christmas is being taken off the scene altogether.

And your point is....let me guess....that because you can point to failures, success is impossible????

Or is it perhaps that "natives" never impose stupid restrictions on one another based on some moral majority?

One of a multitude of anti native culture aspects that's being implemented across Europe by these people that DON'T LIVE AND LET LIVE.

There's no shortage of people who don't live and let live. The vast majority of them, in my experience, are not the immigrants.

jc

bonkey

Wicknight wrote:

I certainly think we should be calling for a ban on all Christians entering the country, or at least Christians from Amercia.

Actually, to be consistent with those "informing" us of the problems with multiculturalism, its all Americans you should be banning.

grubber

cyclopath2001 wrote:

There are good Muslims and there bad Muslims, just like there are good Christians and bad Christians.

George Bush is a Christian, that doesn't mean that all Christians are bad. The people who kill Ken Bigley were bad. That does not make all Muslims bad.

What's important is not to judge people for the actions of others or to be misled by the hysterical rantings of bigots. That happened, years ago, to the Irish in Britain.

As people who've suffered from sectarian discrimination & oppression, we should be the first to recognose the symptoms among ourselves.

Generally I agree with your slant on this. Except, that is, for your last paragraph, which effectively obliges Irish people to uncritically accept immigration, just because we were oppressed as immigrants in other lands in the past.
Shouldn't we learn from the mistakes of some of our nearest neighbours such as the England, Holland, France and Sweden?

Zombrex

grubber wrote:

Shouldn't we learn from the mistakes of some of our nearest neighbours such as the England, Holland, France and Sweden?

We should learn from our own history that immigration and migration is not bad. In fact they have helped Ireland for hundreds of years. Yes they produces problems, everything in life produces problems, but these problems are over come in time.

We should learn from our own history that multiculturalism is not bad, that cultures can exist side by side without destroying each others culture.

We should learn from our own history that people in general deserve a chance, and that we should not throw out the basket because of a few bad apples.

You say we should "learn" but what you are calling for is abondonment. "Its hard we shouldn't allow it" .. that is nonsense, change is part of life. You don't like it, you hold on to some ridiculous romantic idea of red haired children playing in corn fields, an idea that never existed in the first place.

I fail to see how having a bus full of Irish strangers or having a bus full of Polish strangers matters to you. I fail to see how passing a white stranger on Grafton St is different than passing a black stranger. You don't know these people, it doesn't matter if they are Polish, Nigerian or Irish. You still don't know them. Why does the fact they are foreign make you so nervous? Why would it matter to you if half the people on the bus were black? Why would it matter to you if all the people on the bus were black?

I honestly don't understand how someone can be so unsure of their personal identity that the nationality of strangers, or the skin colour of strangers, can make them insecure.

bonkey

grubber wrote:

Shouldn't we learn from the mistakes of some of our nearest neighbours such as the England, Holland, France and Sweden?

We should indeed learn from mistakes, but we should also remember that a mistake only teaches you not to repeat something. It does not necessarily tell you what the correct approach is.

Lets not try and reduce it to a binary "if that was wrong, this must therefore be right" argument, because there are far more than two options.

jc

fly_agaric

Wicknight wrote:

We should learn from our own history ... that cultures can exist side by side without destroying each others culture.

How can we learn that from our history? I'm not being sarcastic - I honestly don't understand.

Stepping away from Ireland and looking at the overall trend:
At the moment there is a big migration of people going on from poorer to richer countries. In some cases there are very large difference between the culture of the migrants and the culture of the people already in the countries they are migrating to. Is there any good reason this will end up being less, eh, "problematic" for the people involved than any of the previous big human migrations? No. What can we do about it? Nothing IMO.

cyclopath2001

fly_agaric wrote:

In some cases there are very large difference between the culture of the migrants and the culture of the people already in the countries they are migrating to.

Can you be more precise about this? It seems to be at the heart of your argument. What are these cultural differences? Why are they likely to cause trouble in Ireland?

Zombrex

fly_agaric wrote:

How can we learn that from our history? I'm not being sarcastic - I honestly don't understand.

The Irish emigrated to every corner of the world. By and large the managed to live with native people without either destroying the native culture or loosing their own identity as "Irish"

fly_agaric wrote:

Is there any good reason this will end up being less, eh, "problematic" for the people involved than any of the previous big human migrations? No. What can we do about it? Nothing IMO.

All the problematic migrations of people worked themselves out in the end. I don't accept that the current problems in England and America are due to multiculturalism, the are mostly economic and would be happening anyway just not along cultural lines.

grubber

Wicknight wrote:

We should learn from our own history that immigration and migration is not bad. In fact they have helped Ireland for hundreds of years. Yes they produces problems, everything in life produces problems, but these problems are over come in time.

We should learn from our own history that multiculturalism is not bad, that cultures can exist side by side without destroying each others culture.

We should learn from our own history that people in general deserve a chance, and that we should not throw out the basket because of a few bad apples.

You say we should "learn" but what you are calling for is abondonment. "Its hard we shouldn't allow it" .. that is nonsense, change is part of life. You don't like it, you hold on to some ridiculous romantic idea of red haired children playing in corn fields, an idea that never existed in the first place.

I fail to see how having a bus full of Irish strangers or having a bus full of Polish strangers matters to you. I fail to see how passing a white stranger on Grafton St is different than passing a black stranger. You don't know these people, it doesn't matter if they are Polish, Nigerian or Irish. You still don't know them. Why does the fact they are foreign make you so nervous? Why would it matter to you if half the people on the bus were black? Why would it matter to you if all the people on the bus were black?

I honestly don't understand how someone can be so unsure of their personal identity that the nationality of strangers, or the skin colour of strangers, can make them insecure.

Thanks for the psychobabble and the P/C lecture. If anyone is insecure it is those people ashamed of having (unfashionable) white skin. As a consequence they cannot wait to blindly import new problems from across the world.

grubber

Wicknight wrote:

I wonder if the 170 doctors and nurses who have been killed or injured in the US by anti-abortion groups were feeling the hopsitality of "a Christian country"

I certainly think we should be calling for a ban on all Christians entering the country, or at least Christians from Amercia. They are clearly terrorist, they bring there far right extreme views into this country (also via the web, which is easy to access by anyone don't you know) and spread a message of hate.

Down with this sort of thing! Careful now...

How many unborn children were killed or injured?

Zombrex

grubber wrote:

If anyone is insecure it is those people ashamed of having (unfashionable) white skin.

White skin is "unfashionable" ... er .. ok ... maybe you should watch some TV or open a fashion magazine...

Anyway why would any one be ashamed of having white skin? And Irish person should be no more ashamed of having white skin than an Irish person should be ashamed of having black skin.

What people should be ashamed of is saying "Because I have white skin I want to surround myself with only white skinned people because that makes me more comfortable"

Zombrex

grubber wrote:

How many unborn children were killed or injured?

In the bomb blasts? Probably quite a few since they (the Christians) target abortion clinics and most people in abortion clinic waiting rooms are pregnent.

Wibbs

cyclopath2001 wrote:

Can you be more precise about this? It seems to be at the heart of your argument. What are these cultural differences? Why are they likely to cause trouble in Ireland?

For a start, different attitudes to the role of women in Islam and some of the more radical Christian sects(veiling, arranged marriage etc). Cultural differences/practices that may be illegal/unwanted here but tolerated or even celebrated elsewhere(Christian African circumcision rituals applying to both men and women as an example). Allegiances to a religious or cultural groupings that may reduce the chances of integration into the society that people find themselves in.

Wicknight wrote:

What people should be ashamed of is saying "Because I have white skin I want to surround myself with only white skinned people because that makes me more comfortable"

Why? While I don't personally give a flying... TBH, many do, of all hues and persuasions. The tribalism seemingly inherent in humanity seems to bear this out throughout history. People do appear to be more comfortable around their "own". In PC happyland, I'm sure it would be great but reality and history seem to hold different opinions. I would really like it do be different, but it isn't.

We should learn from our own history that immigration and migration is not bad. In fact they have helped Ireland for hundreds of years. Yes they produces problems, everything in life produces problems, but these problems are over come in time.

Our history? There were huge social and economic upheavals due to immigration to these islands in the past. Some of these problems are with us still. I by no means subscribe to "chuckyism", but our history a good example hardly makes.

We should learn from our own history that multiculturalism is not bad, that cultures can exist side by side without destroying each others culture.

What language do we speak? On what is our system of law based? On what system is our government, civil service etc based. While these may have been changes for the better(debatable), it's frankly silly to suggest that one culture didn't lose out to the other.

We should learn from our own history that people in general deserve a chance, and that we should not throw out the basket because of a few bad apples.

Agreed, but when do you decide the culture itself is responsible for the apples turning bad in the first place?

You say we should "learn" but what you are calling for is abondonment. "Its hard we shouldn't allow it" .. that is nonsense, change is part of life.

Change is part of life, but it should be for the better. Hard isn't in it. A quick trawl through history or current affairs would suggest it's damn near impossible.

I fail to see how having a bus full of Irish strangers or having a bus full of Polish strangers matters to you. I fail to see how passing a white stranger on Grafton St is different than passing a black stranger. You don't know these people, it doesn't matter if they are Polish, Nigerian or Irish. You still don't know them. Why does the fact they are foreign make you so nervous? Why would it matter to you if half the people on the bus were black? Why would it matter to you if all the people on the bus were black?

It matters not a jot. What matters is the culture behind them. I would have far more in common with a black Londoner, than with a white Afrikaans. Colour isn't the issue, culture is. Large differences in same do not make happy bedfellows. Ulster is a good example. They're all the same colour and good luck if you can spot a "prod" from a "taig", but look at the crap that has gone on there. Having the wrong second name was enough to get you killed up there at one point.

The Irish emigrated to every corner of the world. By and large the managed to live with native people without either destroying the native culture or loosing their own identity as "Irish"

Well the native Americans who were slaughtered by mostly Irish regiments in the cavalry might disagree with you there. The riots in many American cities started by the Irish might also come into this argument. The fact is that whenever two cultures with different views clash, one of them is always the loser. Sometimes this is for the better(eg Islamic Spain), generally it's for the worst.

Zombrex

Wibbs wrote:

People do appear to be more comfortable around their "own".

But its their problem. We should not structure serious social policy around the insecurities and phobias of some people.

If some people are very uncomfortable in large open spaces should building planning have to facilitate that phobia?

Or if some people get nervous by large crowds do we put a limit on the number of people allowed in rock concerts or stadium gigs?

The answer would be no because the issue is with the own person.

So why are we supposed to stop immigration to and from our country because it makes some people uncomfortable to be on a bus full of black people? Or be in a night club full of Arabian people?

Wibbs wrote:

In PC happyland, I'm sure it would be great but reality and history seem to hold different opinions.

And history teaches us that women shouldn't have the vote, and that black people are a sub-standard species who should be enslaved to help the economy. And that Irish people are lazy and dishonest.

Yet here in PC Happyland women vote, black people have the same rights as white people and Irish people are as respected as anyone else.

The irrational stereotypes and discrimination of the past shouldn't be used as a basis for policy in the future.

Wibbs wrote:

Our history? There were huge social and economic upheavals due to immigration to these islands in the past. Some of these problems are with us still.

Yeah and life didn't end ... I would love to know where this idea that it is possible to ellimated all problems from our society. Society will always have problems. That's just life. There will always be poor people, be they black Africans living on Parnell St or Irish people living the bad areas of Limerick. There will always be crime, be it an Irish person raping a girl or a Muslim immigrant killing his sister for "honour" (which isn't actually anything to do with Islam).

The ideas that we should wrap ourselfs in some kind of protective blanket and pretend that if we stop external people entering our country everything will be just great is nonsense.

Wibbs wrote:

What language do we speak? On what is our system of law based? On what system is our government, civil service etc based. While these may have been changes for the better(debatable), it's frankly silly to suggest that one culture didn't lose out to the other.

Sorry I thought we were talking about immigration not miltary invasion. As I said before when Irish people start getting rounded up and imprisioned for being Irish come back to me ...

Wibbs wrote:

Agreed, but when do you decide the culture itself is responsible for the apples turning bad in the first place?

A lot of Europeans believe that the Irish culture is responsible for drunkness. A lot of British and American peole believe the Irish culture is responsible for terrorism.

Would you mind not being allowed onto mainland europe because of this? Or being barred from entering America to see family or friends because you come from a culture that encourages terrorism?

I certainly would.

Wibbs wrote:

Colour isn't the issue, culture is.

But that is the point, these people are all strangers to you anyway. Do you have random converstations about cultural topics with Irish people on the bus? No? So why would you with a black person?

No one is saying that you or Grubber have to drop all your current friends and start hanging out with Muslims or Africans.

Why does it matter if the people you don't know are black or white, Islamic or Christian, Afrian or German?

Wibbs wrote:

Having the wrong second name was enough to get you killed up there at one point.

When Islamic immigrants start killing Christian Irish people get back to me ...

Wibbs wrote:

Well the native Americans who were slaughtered by mostly Irish regiments in the cavalry might disagree with you there. The riots in many American cities started by the Irish might also come into this argument.

Yup .. and did they kick all the Irish out? Is there a ban on Irish people entering American? Do you feel you should feel guilty for being Irish? Do you expect anti-Irish slurs when you enter JFK? Would you expect to hear someone say "no another bloody Paddy" in the taxi from the airport?

So do you feel it is right to let isolated incidence of Irish people doing "bad things" (tm) tant the entire Irish population then and now?

If not, they why do you think it is acceptable that we do the same to other cultures.

By and large Irish people live work and play in countries all over the world without trouble. Has every Irish emmigrant been on their best behaviour? Nope, certainly not. Has every Irish emmigrant tried to intergrate with the native culture? Nope, certainly not. Has every Irish emmigrant be nice and polite to the native people? Nope, certainly not.

Is that a reason for other countries to ban Irish people from emmigrating to their country? Nope, certainly not.

Wibbs wrote:

The fact is that whenever two cultures with different views clash, one of them is always the loser

Only if you define change as losing .. Do you lose by having to sit beside a black person on a bus?

cyclopath2001

Wibbs wrote:

Sometimes this is for the better(eg Islamic Spain),

Did someone mention the Spanish inquisition?

Wibbs

Wicknight wrote:

But its their problem. We should not structure serious social policy around the insecurities and phobias of some people.

Well we already have laws on things like public nudity, pornography that offend the "insecurities and phobias" of some

The answer would be no because the issue is with the own person.

So people are going to magically change overnight?

So why are we supposed to stop immigration to and from our country because it makes some people uncomfortable to be on a bus full of black people? Or be in a night club full of Arabian people?

I await the latter with some interest. It better be a "dry" club.

Yet here in PC Happyland women vote, black people have the same rights as white people and Irish people are as respected as anyone else.

And in what happyland would we be if, for example cultures came in who considered women are lesser and should'nt have the vote?

The irrational stereotypes and discrimination of the past shouldn't be used as a basis for policy in the future.

NO but the lessons of the past should be.

Yeah and life didn't end ... I would love to know where this idea that it is possible to ellimated all problems from our society. Society will always have problems. That's just life. There will always be poor people, be they black Africans living on Parnell St or Irish people living the bad areas of Limerick.

Certainly, but why import more problems?

There will always be crime, be it an Irish person raping a girl or a Muslim immigrant killing his sister for "honour" (which isn't actually anything to do with Islam).

While you would be right technically with regard to Islam, the perception of women and their rights under such a system leaves such "honour" killings open to debate.

Sorry I thought we were talking about immigration not miltary invasion. As I said before when Irish people start getting rounded up and imprisioned for being Irish come back to me ...

You mentioned the immigration in the past to Ireland, which ones weren't on the back of a military invasion? Off topic though.

A lot of Europeans believe that the Irish culture is responsible for drunkness. A lot of British and American peole believe the Irish culture is responsible for terrorism.

To the former, I would say, hardly, to the latter I would say that they had a point in the bad days of the "troubles" to keep a bloody close eye on those with certain "sympathies"

But that is the point, these people are all strangers to you anyway. Do you have random converstations about cultural topics with Irish people on the bus? No? So why would you with a black person?

They may be strangers, but they're cultural baggage comes with them, so it can make a difference

No one is saying that you or Grubber have to drop all your current friends and start hanging out with Muslims or Africans.

Who said you were?

When Islamic immigrants start killing Christian Irish people get back to me....

They didn't have too long to wait in Britain, Spain, France, Holland, Germany, Italy........

Yup .. and did they kick all the Irish out? Is there a ban on Irish people entering American?

They couldn't in the first instance, in the second instance they tried at various times.

Do you feel you should feel guilty for being Irish?

Sometimes, when dodgy sh!t was done in the name of Ireland.

Do you expect anti-Irish slurs when you enter JFK? Would you expect to hear someone say "no another bloody Paddy" in the taxi from the airport?

Not any more as we're a modern nation like any other, with a growing secularity to prove it. We're not a potential threat.

Only if you define change as losing .. Do you lose by having to sit beside a black person on a bus?

No we only lose when we find ourselves changed for the worst by some cultures out there which are inferior when it comes to general human rights. It's nothing to do with race as I pointed out, so why keep referring to it?

cyclopath2001 wrote:

Did someone mention the Spanish inquisition?

Huh???