CIA secret prisons in EU

biko · 22-11-2005 9:49pm #1

Well, I haven't seen that here before but apparently CIA is running secret prisons where al Qaeda terrorist suspects are held in unknown conditions. It is illegal to run such prisons in the USA, which is why they were placed in other countries, according to Washington Post and FT and CNN

Human Rights Watch has identified Poland and Romania as most likely places for these "prisons". I write "prisons" because most likely they are more like this or this than actual prisons where interments have rights.

Since when can America use the EU for their black projects? Poland in particular should want to watch it, having a history of internment camps....
There seem to be no end to the US' arrogance and scandal after scandal unravels during their never ending war on dissidents :mad: :mad:

Guy:Incognito · 22-11-2005 9:51pm

biko wrote:

Since when can America use the EU for their black projects? :

Since when are completely unfounded roumours truth?

biko · 22-11-2005 10:05pm

Stekelly wrote:

Since when are completely unfounded roumours truth?

Since they are reported by Washington Post (found link) http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/01/AR2005110101644.html?referrer=email&referrer=email

"Unfounded", can you elaborate a bit? Are you privy to special info that WP does not have?

Guy:Incognito · 22-11-2005 10:11pm

biko wrote:

Since they are reported by Washington Post (found link) http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/01/AR2005110101644.html?referrer=email&referrer=email

"Unfounded", can you elaborate a bit? Are you privy to special info that WP does not have?

yes "unfounded " as in "no evidence".

If a "source" within my head says you are a child molester, is it true?

Manic Moran · 22-11-2005 10:23pm

I'm quite willing to believe that this is true. After all, the intelligence services are trying to get a job done, but they are constrained by what they can legally do. There's probably some effectiveness in the concept behind "Really... you want to tell us, because otherwise we'll send you to the Egyptians (Or whoever) and you really won't like your time there"

If Poland (or wherever) is willing to go along with it, and if it's legal in Poland, I don't think there's anything much to be done about it. EU or not, Poland/Romania/Wherever is still a sovereign country, and if EU laws don't specificy on an issue, then national laws apply. One may not agree with another country's policies on an issue, but that doesn't mean that they don't have the right to come to their own conclusions.

NTM

biko · 22-11-2005 10:27pm

Stekelly wrote:

If a "source" within my head says you are a child molester, is it true?

No cause you are just some dude on the internet but when WP states:
"The CIA has been hiding and interrogating some of its most important al Qaeda captives at a Soviet-era compound in Eastern Europe, according to U.S. and foreign officials familiar with the arrangement" or "It is illegal for the government to hold prisoners in such isolation in secret prisons in the United States, which is why the CIA placed them overseas, according to several former and current intelligence officials and other U.S. government officials" I do think it's true.

U.S. and foreign officials has more weight with me than you.

Also EU officials seems to agree these allegations are not indeed, unfounded http://press.coe.int/cp/2005/626a(2005).htm

Whistle Blower · 24-11-2005 2:52pm

Just one point to note is it okay for Al Quaidea to hold our people prisoner, mutliate their bodies, behead them on Camera, brutalise prisoners.

Also the persons in GTO Bay most likely are guilty and should be shot for the crimes they committed and have done with it.

Explain to me why an english moslem was in Afghanistan doing a Computer Course,when TV's and Computers were banned in that country.

And yes most likely there are prisons and good stuff hopefully by ANY means necessary they will thwart terrorist operations.

seamus · 24-11-2005 3:28pm

Whistle Blower wrote:

Just one point to note is it okay for Al Quaidea to hold our people prisoner, mutliate their bodies, behead them on Camera, brutalise prisoners.

When you mimic your enemy, you become your enemy. Why bother fighting them if we're just going to be like them anyway? The very fact that they do these things is what the world is fighting against.

Also the persons in GTO Bay most likely are guilty and should be shot for the crimes they committed and have done with it.

Uh, what? What makes you sure that they're guilty anyway? Because the USA says so? Sure, why not start shooting people sitting on the side of the street? They're most likely junkies anyway. GTO Bay is a big two fingers to the very notions of democracy and justice. It may as well be ancient Rome.

RedPlanet · 24-11-2005 3:45pm

Whistle Blower wrote:

Just one point to note is it okay for Al Quaidea to hold our people prisoner, mutliate their bodies, behead them on Camera, brutalise prisoners.

Also the persons in GTO Bay most likely are guilty and should be shot for the crimes they committed and have done with it.

Explain to me why an english moslem was in Afghanistan doing a Computer Course,when TV's and Computers were banned in that country.

The Taliban never banned computers.

edit: The point being it's not some sort of human rights violation to ban things like tele's and radios and junk like that

bonkey · 24-11-2005 4:02pm

Whistle Blower wrote:

Just one point to note is it okay for Al Quaidea to hold our people prisoner, mutliate their bodies, behead them on Camera, brutalise prisoners.

Its not. When have you seen someone suggest otherwise?

Also the persons in GTO Bay most likely are guilty and should be shot for the crimes they committed and have done with it.

Fine. Then give them a fair trial. Or is "most likely guilty" good enough grounds for execution where you live?

jc

Victor · 24-11-2005 4:03pm

Whistle Blower wrote:

Just one point to note is it okay for Al Quaidea to hold our people prisoner, mutliate their bodies, behead them on Camera, brutalise prisoners.

No it is not. But note that American military coroners have recorded verdicts of homocide regarding prisoners of the American military, nevermind the shambles that is/was Abu Gharib and Baghdad Airport.

Also the persons in GTO Bay most likely are guilty and should be shot for the crimes they committed and have done with it.

Guilty of what? If they are criminals, try them, punish them. But if they aren't, let them go.

Do you include the likes of the taxi driver who picked up the wrong fare and ended up there? Should he have been shot?

Explain to me why an english moslem was in Afghanistan doing a Computer Course,when TV's and Computers were banned in that country.

Do you have anyone in particular in mind? Details?

seamus wrote:

It may as well be ancient Rome.

No, no, no ....

The Romans abhorred prisons as a brutal means of punishment, thats why they had gladiators.

Hobbes · 24-11-2005 4:47pm

Stekelly wrote:

yes "unfounded " as in "no evidence".

Running, yes. In the EU unknown. Last I saw the EU were investigating this.

As for no evidence of it happening, cited before of a Canadian national being sent Syria from US to be tortured.

Makes you wonder why something completely unfounded is currently being investigated by the CIA as to who leaked this information.

Whistle Blower wrote:

Also the persons in GTO Bay most likely are guilty and should be shot for the crimes they committed and have done with it.

Makes you wonder why they let 100's go as innocent then doesn't it.

pete · 24-11-2005 8:15pm

Human Rights Watch said it had evidence indicating the CIA transported suspected terrorists captured in Afghanistan to Poland and Romania. The New York-based group identified the Kogalniceanu military airfield in Romania and Poland's Szczytno-Szymany airport as possible sites for secret detention centers, saying it based its conclusion on flight logs of CIA aircraft from 2001 to 2004 that it had obtained.

In a report presented in Paris Tuesday to the legal affairs committee of the Council of Europe's parliamentary assembly, Marty says other airports that might have been used by CIA aircraft in some capacity are in Palma de Mallorca, Larnaca in Cyprus and Shannon in Ireland, said Marty's report, which was obtained by The AP.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/11/22/secret.prison.probe.ap/index.html

biko · 24-11-2005 9:36pm

Doesn't matter. Gardai, Ministers McDowell and O'Dea don't give a toss. Apparently the Gardai have said that they never inspect US military flights at Shannon

Capt'n Midnight · 24-11-2005 10:31pm

Documantry on Channel 4 last night - Dispatches
and they reckoned the prisons were in places like Egypt. They detailed one guy who got kidnapped from Italy, just as the police there were tapping his phones and investigating him. Result the US got their man illegally and he is being tortured in Egypt or whatever. Information form torture is not reliable. Oh and the fair trial he was going to get in Italy if they found real evidence won't go ahead and the police there won't have the opportuinty to trace any other suspects.

Oh yeah we're all safer now. :rolleyes:

JimmySmith · 24-11-2005 10:45pm

Its true and its in Dublin. They have built a special compartment one floor above the port tunnel (thats why the ceiling is too low). If you know the guys at the washington post they can get you tickets for the fights every Friday night. They even give the gladiators Roman names. Causes murder in the traffic at the port tunnel on a Friday though.

biko · 26-11-2005 2:42am

JimmySmith wrote:

Its true and its in Dublin. They have built a special compartment one floor above the port tunnel (thats why the ceiling is too low). If you know the guys at the washington post they can get you tickets for the fights every Friday night. They even give the gladiators Roman names. Causes murder in the traffic at the port tunnel on a Friday though.

Yeah great like

Manic Moran · 26-11-2005 6:46am

Why would the Gards (Or customs, I guess) inspect an aircraft at Shannon? If it's in the international section, and just passing through, they wouldn't have cause to. (Possibly not even a right to, depending on what the various air travel conventions say)

NTM

Victor · 26-11-2005 7:30am

It would be in Irish territory. Ireland has obligations not to permit torture.

If the plane had, say two tonnes of cocaine, qould you query the search?

Manic Moran · 26-11-2005 8:50am

If there the cargo is not destined for Ireland, and is only passing through, I don't see how customs (or the Gards) could touch it without a specific international warrant or investigation under way. Usual "I am not a lawyer" qualification applies.

NTM

Victor · 26-11-2005 9:09am

Self-loading cargo (if it got to self-load), is not cargo.

the_syco · 26-11-2005 9:10am

If you kept two people in the same room for a long time, you can either call it unlawful detention, or an illegal jail. These "jails" would usually be small, maybe one or two rooms, in isolated area's, in foreign countries. They wouldn't be as easy to spot as cam xray, mainly because that would draw attention. Also, because they would only have a few people there.

As for torture, thats not a good method. A better way would be that practised by the gooks during Nam. Abuse the prisoner by giving them less food, and then allowing them to "meet" an "allie", and become "friends". Whilst friends, they'd get infomation out of them. And the prisoner would give it more freely, as you must remember: death is not as feared as it may be here. They believe that death will bring them to salvation, so torture may not get any answers.

Hobbes · 29-11-2005 5:35am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4478766.stm

EU Justice officials said they would suspend voting rights on any senior EU country that is found to be hosting tourture prisons. Ones joining may have thier membership request denied.

Manic Moran · 29-11-2005 7:14am

Victor wrote:

Self-loading cargo (if it got to self-load), is not cargo.

You haven't flown an American flag airline recently, have you?

NTM

Hobbes · 30-11-2005 9:23am

I am just curious. Has there been any murmurs from the Irish government over this? Spain are already investigating and there is a case going on in the UK now demanding an investigation.

Add to that Rice saying "They would look into it" but also "We haven't broken any US laws" which comments like that are worrying.

Seeing as we have US planes routinely stopping in Ireland it is certainly a valid question?

aphex™ · 30-11-2005 9:37am

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Documantry on Channel 4 last night - Dispatches
and they reckoned the prisons were in places like Egypt.

There was a great report on this on Newsnight last night. They showed the two planes the CIA use and its travels over the last few months. Stopped over at morocco before going on to cuba, stopped in remote romania etc. Not sure if the stops are new news. Shannon isn't mentioned. These weren't refuelling stops either.

Definately worth a look. You can watch the latest show here. Its at about 36 mins.

I see the UK group liberty is going to sue the UK govt and police forces for not investigating this. Maybe the same could be done here?

CIA secret prisons in EU

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