Reloading

civdef

Since it looks like reloading is back on the agenda once the amendments to the Firearms Acts go through, nows possibly a good time to start thinking about it.

Once of the requirements to be granted a cert to reload is possibly going to be a requirement to demonstrate competence in reloading. So I guess that means courses/certs or something of what will be needed. Are any of the national bodies or clubs going to be looking at promoting safe reloading?

Sparks

It does look like it's back on the agenda Civ, but you have to show that you've a reason other than one of economy to reload, and they've put teeth into that requirement too.

That out of the way, it might be an idea to use the nearby resources in the UK to get initial accreditations done and then get a course running here...

civdef

Well, anyone involved in target shooting or hunting can justify reloading on the basis of developing accurate loads tailor made for their own gun.

jaycee

Well, anyone involved in target shooting or hunting can justify reloading on the basis of developing accurate loads tailor made for their own gun.

It's going to be tricky to demonstrate competence in reloading to a greater standard than that achieved by large ammunition companies, and BTW,
in this as in most of the other "conditions" throughout the amendments , who's to be the judge of the winning argument .

Actually that's wrong , it won't be either an argument or a discussion ..just an instruction backed up by law.

Wheres the requirement for the managers of these policys , to be qualified to make them...:(

rrpc

Here are a few arguments you can make for reloading

1. Availability of ammunition
2. Ability to make slower/faster rounds
3. Ability to make lighter/heavier rounds
4. Ability to make unjacketed rounds
5. Ability to make different bullets (wadcutters, hollow points etc.)

That enough to be getting on with?

Sparks

Thing is RRPC, this is like the rest of the CJB amendments: if the PTB are happy with you, all's rosy; if not, they can take away pretty much all the toys. Those reasons you just gave, for example, are valid to you and I; but to a super, he just looks up those kind of rounds from the manufacturer (any manufacturer, even someone reloading outside the state and shipping the rounds in) and can say that you don't need to reload, but that it's just cheaper for you to do so and thus you don't qualify.
It's bad law, depressingly open to abuse.

Clare gunner

Again very sneaky of our law makers on this one.
One of the main reasons you would reload as a shotgunner is for ecnomic reasons in clay busting.:mad: But I suppose you can argue that your old auto loader works best with a special type of load,no longer available to the GP.


Note also that this is an annual liscense thing.So more paperwork for our local gardai.[and this was supposed to reduce it??]
The terms are actually close to theEU legislation on this.With the proof of competance[in Germany that is a two month course for a small explosive users permit]And the kicker for me.Is the safe area and storage requirement.[Forget reloading if you live in an apartment block in Germany.]
You need somthing like a WW2 air raid bunker to satisify that lot.
No guessing what stupid requirements all and sundry superintendants will be putting on this one!
Also,is there a course on reloading??Also why do we have always to look to the UK???I would think anyone who does an NRA/USA saftey course in reloading[if they do such a thing] will be as competant as any.Or will somone put one together here that will be recognised?Most folks I know self taught them selves reloading.

Sparks

Also why do we have always to look to the UK?

Flight to Heathrow: €64, 1hr20min
Flight to New York: €403, 7hrs30min
Figures taken from aerlingus.com just now.

Makes sense to use your closest resource when you've lots of people to ship there to train, no? Nothing against US courses, you understand; but they're hardly the most convienent to ship fifty people to, whereas with Bisley, it's feasible.

rrpc

Sparks wrote:

Thing is RRPC, this is like the rest of the CJB amendments: if the PTB are happy with you, all's rosy; if not, they can take away pretty much all the toys. Those reasons you just gave, for example, are valid to you and I; but to a super, he just looks up those kind of rounds from the manufacturer (any manufacturer, even someone reloading outside the state and shipping the rounds in) and can say that you don't need to reload, but that it's just cheaper for you to do so and thus you don't qualify.
It's bad law, depressingly open to abuse.

But you still have access to the district court unless I'm mistaken, to have your case heard. And AFAIK, an awful lot of the fullbore ammo is jacketed, which makes a case for unjacketed rounds. If you have a letter from a manufacturer saying that they will not supply less than say 1000 rounds, and your license only lets you have 100, well there's a circle that can't be squared.

civdef

As Clare Gunner says, a lot of reloading seems to be self taught, basically get a manual, start reading. A lot of the kabooms resulting from reloading stem from people who knew exactly what they were doing, just pushed things too far, which is more an issue of intelligence rather than competence.

That said, some form of course seems like a good idea, once it's run with a fair amount of common sense.

Sparks

But you still have access to the district court unless I'm mistaken, to have your case heard.

The quote you should remember is "This is not a court of justice young man, it is a court of law". If the Garda says "Your honour, he can buy the rounds from so-and-so quite readily, therefore he's just doing this for reasons of economy, which as you can see are strictly prohibited from the 'good reason' clause of the section of the Act", then you've got a rather tough case on your hands. You can't argue discrimination or that the requirements are unusually onerous, the law's too clear on the "not if it'll save you money" point

If you have a letter from a manufacturer saying that they will not supply less than say 1000 rounds, and your license only lets you have 100, well there's a circle that can't be squared.

Until the superintendent draws one extra circle on your licence in the right place...

rrpc

Sparks wrote:

Until the superintendent draws one extra circle on your licence in the right place...

OK 5000 then

civdef

the law's too clear on the "not if it'll save you money" point

Hardly. Reasons of economy alone will not be enough to justify reloading. However if it's a product of reloading which is primarily undertaken for some other reason, that you can do it a little bit cheaper than factory ammo, that's not a reason to prevent the cert being issued.

Say a factory load is 6.9 grains of powder, and it just so happens that your rifle shoots much better with 6.8grains, but the factory doesnt make such a load, that would seem to be a justification. Evidence suggests that playing around with the minutae of loads can fine tune a round to a particular rifle in pretty much all cases.

Sparks

rrpc wrote:

OK 5000 then

"Ah, now lad, that'd be a danger to the public safety you see. But if you can build fort knox, come back to us and we'll think about it"...
See, you can't say on one hand that there are problem Superintendents in firearms licencing, and on the other assume that those same Superintendents won't abuse the system to make life easier on themselves!

Clare gunner

Sparks wrote:

Flight to Heathrow: €64, 1hr20min
Flight to New York: €403, 7hrs30min
Figures taken from aerlingus.com just now.

Makes sense to use your closest resource when you've lots of people to ship there to train, no? Nothing against US courses, you understand; but they're hardly the most convienent to ship fifty people to, whereas with Bisley, it's feasible.

True,but go Dub Heathrow,Stanstead Atlanta,via Virgin,Brit airways etc bought in a bucket shop job lot possibly £400 Stg would get your 50 over.
Or Ryanair to Hahn Frankfurt ,get your 50 into a crash course in reloading [english spoken] over a long weekend,out and home with an EU recognised cert.STG/Euro is the killer always.
On this ecnomoy point,and alot of this legislation.As it isnt fixed in concrete yet.It would be a good time now to get our organisations and TDs informed on such a daft piece of wording and legislation,especially the restrictied category of firearms.Speak now or forever hold thine peace..

Sparks

Clare gunner wrote:

True,but go Dub Heathrow,Stanstead Atlanta,via Virgin,Brit airways etc bought in a bucket shop job lot possibly £400 Stg would get your 50 over.

£400 Stg to get 50 people to the states? What's that, luggage class?

Or Ryanair to Hahn Frankfurt ,get your 50 into a crash course in reloading [english spoken] over a long weekend,out and home with an EU recognised cert.

That sounds like an equally good (if not outright better) option than the UK. 'Course, it'd want to be a weekend course; it's not that far, but it does still take it out of you.

On this ecnomoy point,and alot of this legislation.As it isnt fixed in concrete yet.It would be a good time now to get our organisations and TDs informed on such a daft piece of wording and legislation,especially the restrictied category of firearms.Speak now or forever hold thine peace..

Our TDs don't have a say in it anymore, not unless they're on the Select Committee:

• Seán Ardagh (Fianna Fáil) (Chairman)
• Joe Costello (Labour)
• Máire Hoctor (Fianna Fáil)
• Finian McGrath (Independent)
• Breeda Moynihan-Cronin (Labour)
• Gerard Murphy (Fine Gael) (Vice-Chairman)
• Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Fianna Fáil)
• Charlie O'Connor (Fianna Fáil)
• Denis O'Donovan (Fianna Fáil)
• Jim O'Keefe (Fine Gael)
• Peter Power (Fianna Fáil)

It's our Senators that have the next debate over it, in the Seanad stage of the Bill. And we'd have to push hard to make changes, because they'll be more worried about things like ASBOs and the like - don't forget, the rest of this bill is as bad in vagueness as our part. Heard this morning that it defines "carrying certain things to use in certain offenses" as an actual offense!

Clare gunner

[

QUOTE=Sparks]£400 Stg to get 50 people to the states? What's that, luggage class?

Close enough!Cattle class!But if you keep an eye on some sites like chepflights.com,it would be dooable.

That sounds like an equally good (if not outright better) option than the UK. 'Course, it'd want to be a weekend course; it's not that far, but it does still take it out of you.

Shall I make a few enquiries then to see if this is possible?

Our TDs don't have a say in it anymore, not unless they're on the Select Committee:

Hmmm,and I see two names there that are anti gun and one a blitering idiot from my part of the world.:(

It's our Senators that have the next debate over it, in the Seanad stage of the Bill. And we'd have to push hard to make changes, because they'll be more worried about things like ASBOs and the like - don't forget, the rest of this bill is as bad in vagueness as our part.

Heard this morning that it defines "carrying certain things to use in certain offenses" as an actual offense!

[/QUOTE]

My God !How Pythonesque can we get??
"The putting things on top of other things comittee,now comes to order.":D

thelurcher

I know I have on my license that I can only have 100rnds but isn't it perfecly above board to buy shotgun cartridges by the case load - I know I do and never get any hassle - as I shoot clays.

The Gards aren't totally retarted - - you'll surely be allowed have the extra ammo if you're reloading?

Sparks

isn't it perfecly above board to buy shotgun cartridges by the case load

Yes, but you need to have "one case load" on your licence legally...
You might get a lot of leeway with your local garda and your local firearms dealer to buy more than is on your licence, but; a) if you're caught by a garda who's not so sympathetic, you don't have a leg to stand on as you are breaking the letter of the law, and b) if you want to go abroad with more than 100 rounds to a competition or whatever, or to ship back batch-tested ammo (which really only applies to rifles I guess), you need the full amount on your licence.

jaycee

you'll surely be allowed have the extra ammo if you're reloading?

Not extra.. probably to whatever limit in complete rounds that is stated on your licence.

chem

I think we are all missing the point here. Why in the hell are we not going to be allowed to reload because its cheaper???

To be honest the more i think of this new law, the more i get the impression that notting has changed :mad: Any section that seems to be giving us anything, has a subsection to take it away or at least make it so hard to get as not to bother looking for it. Not only that but if you do get it and put one foot out of line its taken off you, your landed with a large fine and or imprisioned. then you cant hold a firearm for years as you have a criminal conviction :eek:

Dare i say it.....i think we might have been better off, when we had most things in the gray area!

Rovi

chem wrote:

Dare i say it.....i think we might have been better off, when we had most things in the gray area!

You took the words out of my mouth!
Unless you're unfortunate enough to be in an area covered by a 'difficult' Superintendant (Hi CG ), the current system is workable, and everyone involved knows how it works and how to work it. I know it's not ideal, and we'd all like it to be better, but it is 'the devil we know' and all that.

I hope I'm wrong, but I have a bad feeling about all this

.

jaycee

Why in the hell are we not going to be allowed to reload because its cheaper???

Ok .. reloading for the sake of economy is not the only reason , but it is such an obvious benefit to be able to cut your ammo costs. But the very idea that it is excluded as a reason makes no sense.

A more natural and rational form would have been .. "For reasons in addition to economy"

That one statement above all others , ruins any chance of this leaving me with a warm fuzzy feeling. When was it ever a crime to want to save a few bob ..?

Traumadoc

I reload, but I often wonder how much saving there is ,equipment costs are about 500- 1000 euro, decent projectiles 50cent each,powder 30 cent, primer 5 cent. ( I recon about 75% of the cost of factory ammo) so to recoup the costs of equipment you would have to reload at least 2000 rounds.

That said reloading iis very enjoyable,I find the projectiles more effective and because you practice more you are a more accurate shooter.

Sparks

Only 2000 rounds Trauma? Maybe I'm biased from smallbore, but that doesn't seem like a lot - even our total newbies in DURC will get through 600 rounds in an academic year easily, and that's just 12 hours on the range (one half-hour visit per week during term). Any of our competitive shooters would burn through 2000 rounds in a fairly short space of time!

Traumadoc

I shoot 270 win and some 308, i doubt I would shoot 400 rounds a year, last hunting trip I shot 10 rounds ,four of which was to check the sights - the other six on four boars.

I suppose if you compete fullbore or are a pistol shooter then you would shoot a lot more.

Clare gunner

Had a chat with my cousin on this subject last night.His play on it is,taking this is from a German perspective as well;
for shotgun ammo it isnt worth it,remember however they can buy bulk ammo with no nr restrictions at somthing like 95cents a cartridge or less.
For rifle ammo,yes it pays for tweaking a load to a specific rifle,or if you have an obscure calibre which you shoot alot.Or you are a hunter and want to develop loads for different scenarios.Which is the reason he does it mostly
Pistol,again he doesnt do it as a sport,and he said again 9mm and 45,38,and 357[his calibres] are pretty cheap again over there.Reckons it might pay if you are a practical shooter or otherwise totally engaged pistolero.Price for his eq is now around 3k euros.But he said if you were just reloading say 20 shells for a seasons hunting,you can buy the Lee handloader set with specific calibre dies for somthing like $80 all in. Found that clause VERY strange in our law .As most big ammo burners pistol and target rifle shooters,and clay busters would get it over here,as they would be the most likely group to reload.

I am beginning to think as well,mebbe this was some bright souls idea to prevent criminals from getting reloaded ammo?This apprently has happened in the UK a few times as well.Good intentions,bad laws.

jaycee

this was some bright souls idea to prevent criminals from getting reloaded ammo?

Since when has any criminal worried if what he was doing was illegal ..?
Do people still think that crimimals are worried by whats in the CBJ , restrictive laws mainly effect law abiding citizens.