'The After Life'

Beruthiel

does it exist?
other than your atoms moving on to bigger and better things, I don't think so.
I require proof.....

Merrick

I'd like to see proof too, but I very much doubt I'll get any.
Looks like we'll have to wait until we go there... if there is a "there" to go to...

Stephen

I believe that once you're dead, that's it. Worm food.

Dades

Don't believe in one now I have to say.

Would like to think that I can accept that when I'm on the way out, though there's always the chance wishful thinking will take over. Human nature I guess.

Read the end of Carl Sagan's final book, Billions & Billions where his wife (also atheist) has to finish his book writing about his final hours of dying in the belief of nothing to follow. Very poignant.

monkeyfudge

I'd very much be of the opinion that once your brain and body cease to function that's it for you.

The only way to continue on in someway is to spread your genetic material and create offspring with similiar characteristics.

There is also 'memes' to take into consideration. I like the idea of memes a lot. They are esentially ideas that are transfered from one mind to another through communication. Memes act in a very similiar way to genes and follow a similiar set of rules to those laid out by Darwin in his ideas around biological evolution.

Strong memes will survive longer and mutate. Clearly the God meme has been with us a long time and has mutated in many ways as it is transfered from person to person and culture to culture. While other memes become extinct and die off...

The reason I like the idea of memes a lot is because it allows for a way for some aspect of our intellect and ideas to carry on long after we have died.

Crucifix

Dust to dust if you ask me. I agree about the genes and memes thing though; you can still leave your mark on the world, and it'll live on and develop (hopefully).

lostexpectation

I think this one of the most life affirming thoughts, that there is no afterlife but what you leave behind on earth, (children, invention, struggle etc).


did anyone see that docu on genetic memory a few months back, too complicated o explain but it suggested that your ill heath can effect several generations down the line ie, if eating loads of chemically loaded foods, as we do, it could well harm the health of your great great grandson.

J.R.HARTLEY

it's a belief you either believe in it or you don't, you can't get proof, one way or the other.
you can't prove itdoes exist and you can't prove it doesn't


i'm not swayed by any argument for it.

Crucifix

lostexpectation wrote:

did anyone see that docu on genetic memory a few months back, too complicated o explain but it suggested that your ill heath can effect several generations down the line ie, if eating loads of chemically loaded foods, as we do, it could well harm the health of your great great grandson.

I think I caught that myself; 'epigenetics' they call it. Quite interesting.

Tar.Aldarion

Beruthiel wrote:

does it exist?
other than your atoms moving on to bigger and better things, I don't think so.
I require proof.....

Depends if you believe in a 'soul'. Do you believe that your consciousness is greater than the sum of your parts and that you are not purely thinking what you are thinking due to biology and chemical impulses.
It is all about belief. This is something you believe in or you don't, no human has proof.
Personally I don't know either way and nobody has the ability to sway me.
I do hope something is after life but if there is not, oh well...it's not i'll be depressed because I won't exist.

ronbyrne2005

i dont beleive there is an afterlife, i also hope there is but if there was ther would be some sort of transition from your living perception/reality on earth to someother realm,there would surely be some indication of this in this dimension/realm ,but you never know,the universe ,reality, life, time are all beyond our comprehension maybe there are even stranger things in parralel dimension/universes or some other exotic "location " i dont spend too much time dwelling on my ineviatble death as it depresses me too much,as does thoughts of "what is reality" "what is time" "what is 3 dimensional space" "what is the universe" better to just take reality/life as you find it and try to be content and enjoy it.

plonk

I guarentee if you did a poll only about 15% if even would say yes no proof all it does is help people get on with their lives Personally I dont believe in it I would like to think there is something out there but i doubt it

Asiaprod

I believe in reincarnation, I have no proof its true. I would like to think that some thing carries on.:rolleyes:

plonk

fair play to you. I wish i could believe in it but there are too many things that put me off the idea. The problem is there will never be proof in our lifetime

Rev Hellfire

I also would like to believe that we carry on in one form or another.

Looking at it in the cold hard light of reason I would say no, but 'I want to believe' since it provides me with a level of hope.

monkeyfudge

I sincerely hope that there isn't an afterlife.

Not one religion has put forward an idea of an afterlife that I find in any way compelling. And it goes on forever? How boring is that?

Non-existence for me please... that's true peace.

Beruthiel

Asiaprod wrote:

I believe in reincarnation, I have no proof its true. I would like to think that some thing carries on.:rolleyes:

your atoms will survive, they will break down and become something else, so in a way, at least part of you gets to be a leaf or some grass, perpaps a worm

Butterbox

IF there is such a thing as reincarnation how come there are billions more people on earth now than a thousand years ago.
There is no afterlife, and there is no compensation in the fact that our genes, memes or atoms live on because eventually the earth will be destroyed and the universe will become dark, and looking back our very existance will have been a blink of an eye. Everything we became and learned is for nothing. Knowledge has no value beyond the life of man.

Rev Hellfire

Butterbox wrote:

IF there is such a thing as reincarnation how come there are billions more people on earth now than a thousand years ago.

I suspect a believer in reincarnation might depending on their beliefs argue that while the number of people has increased it does not follow that the volume of life has. Keep in mind that you arent guaranteed to come back as a human.

There is no afterlife, and there is no compensation in the fact that our genes, memes or atoms live on because eventually the earth will be destroyed and the universe will become dark, and looking back our very existance will have been a blink of an eye. Everything we became and learned is for nothing. Knowledge has no value beyond the life of man.

I would like to think that ultimately in the future man or the inheritors of our legacy will conspire to avoid the faith you have mapped out for us. This is again assuming current scientific thinking doesnt change, there's quite a bit of time left for us and I'm sure we'll reevaluate our understanding of the universe a few times between now and then.

Asiaprod

Beruthiel wrote:

perpaps a worm

Boy, I'm going to make for one hell of an angry worm. Brings to mind my dead grans fav quote to me.
" The worm will turn"
You better Believe Gran:)

Asiaprod

Rev Hellfire wrote:

I suspect a believer in reincarnation might depending on their beliefs argue that while the number of people has increased it does not follow that the volume of life has. Keep in mind that you arent guaranteed to come back as a human.

Close but for two important points
1 I don't depend on my belief, I believe in my belief.
2 you limit yourself when you say I might come back as an animal. It is a big universe out there, who ever said that the species on earth are the only sentient beings.:rolleyes:

As a matter of fact,many believe that the number of humans are actually limited and reincarnation is just recycling in action. The quantity remains the same. For every death, there is a rebirth

ronbyrne2005

it seems to me that people who say "i beleive " are actually expressing a desire or preference for a certain possible outcome,so optimists will be more likely to "beleive" in reincarnation afterlife etc while cynical pessimists like me are more likely not to "beleive"

Asiaprod

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

so optimists will be more likely to "beleive" in reincarnation afterlife etc while cynical pessimists like me are more likely not to "beleive"

Its a good statement. However, for me optimisim does not come into it, I don't believe something as important as the human race just dies out, I believe we each have a higher purpose. Can't explain it any better right now, I am still learning.:(

tabatha

dont know if any of you caught the doctor on tv the other day. his name was sam parnia. he is a critical care doctor in southampton in england. it was very interesting. this is a link to a story of his.

www.near-death.com/experiences/triggers11.html

very interesting. he has come across many peoples experiences of near death as he is a critical care doctor.

ronbyrne2005

why is the human race destined for greter things?why are we important? i think we are as important as any other animal,thats all we are,animals albeit a more advanced form
read book "straw dogs"

Dades

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

it seems to me that people who say "i beleive " are actually expressing a desire or preference for a certain possible outcome,so optimists will be more likely to "beleive" in reincarnation afterlife etc while cynical pessimists like me are more likely not to "beleive"

I would substitute wishful-thinking for optimism, and realism for cynical pessimism.
Of course everybody has different reasons.

saibhne

Reincarnation shouldn't be seen in a linear fashion, i.e. I will come back as.. that is viewing time in a linear fashion and time (being relative) is no use or relevant to you when you're dead.
The most scientifically correct way of viewing reincarnation is that, if it happens, it can occur at any moment. This is because time has no limit on those who are dead/getting ready to be born.

There is also a certain mad group of breakaway reincarnation fans who pertain that you do not have to devote your entire soul to any specific life.
This allows you to the freedom to spread yourself around a bit to live and learn life as different beings on the earth and in the universe. So if you subscribe to this you can exist as a human in Ireland, a snail in Samoa and a rock in Gibraltar - all simultaneously.

The theory about the growth of the human population at the moment is that this world is currently going through a crucial and unique evolutionary period and that many experiential rewards are available to those brave enough to get stuck in. The result of this is that everyone is just jumping on the bandwagon and incarnating as much as possible at the same time.

Thanks for all the fish.

S.


P.S. It's far better craic to believe in this than the nothingness thing you guys go on about..

Asiaprod

The most scientifically correct way of viewing reincarnation is that, if it happens, it can occur at any moment. This is because time has no limit on those who are dead/getting ready to be born.

As I understand reincarnation, that is the absolutely correct. Time as we know it not a factor and reincarnation can happen anytime. In Nepal for example, the high priests such as the Dali Lame and the other top two whose names I can not remember reincarnated within 67 days. Again, this is their particular belief. I believe in no time limit, it happens when it happens.

There is also a certain mad group of breakaway reincarnation fans who pertain that you do not have to devote your entire soul to any specific life. This allows you to the freedom to spread yourself around a bit to live and learn life as different beings on the earth and in the universe.

Hum, this really stretches the imagination. First point as I see it, a Buddhist, as I am, does not have a soul, he has a Seimei (Life-force), he does not regress backward to any animal state, he is born as a human (male or female) with either good or bad fortune, He does not split up into different entities, but his/her life-force is connected on a higher level to all living entities (A major key point in the belief system). Another interesting group for you is one that believes that reincarnation is not limited to past, present or future. You could pop up anywhere. Don’t believe this myself, but interesting idea al the same.

The theory about the growth of the human population at the moment is that this world is currently going through a crucial and unique evolutionary period and that many experiential rewards are available to those brave enough to get stuck in. The result of this is that everyone is just jumping on the bandwagon and incarnating as much as possible at the same time.

I would be nice if you could explain that one a little more clearly, it is rather confusing,[/font]

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homah_7ft

I think once we die that's it. I believe we won't live on forever through memes or through our children because unfortunately they will pass eventually too. In the end there will be nothing left of us.

biko

Well, there was life after afterbirth so shouldnt there be birth after afterlife?
In my opinion - no

There is no point to my life, as there is no point to the life of a bee or a tree. That does not imply that people should waste it. Live while you can and respect others lives too.

Goodshape

biko wrote:

There is no point to my life, as there is no point to the life of a bee or a tree.

Say that to the flowers.

saibhne wrote:

There is also a certain mad group of breakaway reincarnation fans who pertain that you do not have to devote your entire soul to any specific life.
This allows you to the freedom to spread yourself around a bit to live and learn life as different beings on the earth and in the universe. So if you subscribe to this you can exist as a human in Ireland, a snail in Samoa and a rock in Gibraltar - all simultaneously.

Similar to an idea I had.

I like to think of all life on this planet as a unity (experiencing itself subjectivly, if you will). If you go back far enough it all started from the same thing so this seems to make sense to me. With that in mind, Life does exist as "a human in Ireland, a snail in Samoa and a rock in Gibraltar" simultanesously. But the snail is non the wiser to it than you or I (not very 'subjective' if you know first hand what the snail is going through).

I think what you feel inside you as your soul is your linkup to this one Life. Think of it as an ocean, from which all life is drawn. When you die you are poured back into this ocean and will spread out within it to become a part of a countless number of lifes to come. All you are is the energy.

The experiences you've had are retained in the universal sub conscious for everyones benifit. As such, your 'self' will not exist again and has not existed before but past life regression and revisting dead relatives, and so on, is not ruled out as these past lives are a part of all of us.


(and you don't need to 'believe' anything to think about the issue. fact is, we don't have the answers. but you won't get them without asking some questions.. can be fun too)

Rev Hellfire

I'm not sure if this particular theory comes from Shinto but our man in Japan Asiaprod may be familiar with it. I was recently at a lecture and during the course of it a different form of reincarnation came up.

The basic premise is that a person is not a single entity but in a connected multiple each with takes a turn one after the other.

The idea simply put that I am connected with say 5 other entities. And that my actions affect the outcome for the next person and the duration they must wait before their subsequent reincarnation.

Just another one for the reincarnation heads to mull over.

Dades

saibhne wrote:

The theory about the growth of the human population at the moment is that this world is currently going through a crucial and unique evolutionary period and that many experiential rewards are available to those brave enough to get stuck in. The result of this is that everyone is just jumping on the bandwagon and incarnating as much as possible at the same time.

I'm confused here. How does this theory fit in with the fertility rates of developing countries? And why is the European population in decline?

Goodshape wrote:

(and you don't need to 'believe' anything to think about the issue. fact is, we don't have the answers. but you won't get them without asking some questions.. can be fun too)

I'm so glad you added that caveat - I thought you'd lost it.

Asiaprod

Rev Hellfire wrote:

The basic premise is that a person is not a single entity but in a connected multiple each with takes a turn one after the other.

Thats an interesting one.

The problem with religions in Japan is that there are thousands of them. It is very common for someone to build his own temple and develop his own religion. This is a purely monetary thing. Religion is a business. For example, you can cremate somebody and each year pay a hefty fee to a priest to receive a new and better after death name that will assure the deceased of a higher position in the afterlife. The more you pay, over a period of years of course to generate more money for the temple, the better the name they will a lot to you... I mean, talk about a rip off. The truth of the matter is that in general the Japanese are the most unreligiouse and superstitious race on the planet. They go to specific temples to achieve specific targets. There are temples for everything you could possibly conceive of. It is generally a pay as you go spiritual society.

What you describe is a bastardization of a the Buddhist concept that we are all, human. plant and animal, connected at a higher level through a natural law that permeates everything.

I honestly cannot see what would be gained by having to wait in line for my turn.

Excelsior

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

it seems to me that people who say "i beleive " are actually expressing a desire or preference for a certain possible outcome

It seems to me that people who say "I don't believe" are actually expressing a desire or preference for a certain possible outcome.

I think waiting for empirical proof on the afterlife may be irrelevant since it would appear to be (although not neccesarily) a super-empirical event if it exists.

I believe that afterlife exists and that it is either with God or apart from him. I don't think heaven will be boring but rather like CS Lewis said, it is like a great novel where each new chapter is better than the last.

Asiaprod

Excelsior wrote:

I don't think heaven will be boring but rather like CS Lewis said, it is like a great novel where each new chapter is better than the last.

I would love to hear your understanding of what heaven will be like. The understanding forced into me was of sitting around all day praising God, and that really did not go down well with me. What do you think its like?

Dades

Excelsior wrote:

It seems to me that people who say "I don't believe" are actually expressing a desire or preference for a certain possible outcome.

I don't subscribe to this one. I would love to believe there is more to follow, even if it was something along the lines of some of the wacky reincarnation ideas above. And no doubt as I (with a bit of luck) grow old, this "want" to believe will get stronger.

But I agree that waiting for empirical evidence is fruitless.

robindch

> This is a purely monetary thing. Religion is a business.

Same in the USA -- hard statistics are difficult to come by, but this report is worth a quick read:

http://www.resourcingchristianity.org/downloads/Essays/Financing%20American%20Religion%20-%20Final.pdf

...which says that the national spend on god in the USA, twelve years ago, was probably between $40 billion and $60 billion, or around $60 to $85 billion in today's cash. A nice little earner, specially when it's tax-free!

Any figures on for Japan? Or Korea, where the strength of christian fundamentalism seems to be second only to the US bible belt.

Asiaprod

robindch wrote:

Any figures on for Japan?

No, all religions are tax free and do not have to account for their cash. Shinto is the state religion and is heavily subsidized by the government. But judging by their real estate and the size of their temples they earn a **** lot of money. I don't know very much about Korea, but I would say it is the same.
I think these oriental religions could teach their wester counterparts a thing or to when it comes to sqeezing money from the faithful.

Nevyn

First Law of Thermodynamics: Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. The total amount of energy and matter in the Universe remains constant, merely changing from one form to another. The First Law of Thermodynamics (Conservation) states that energy is always conserved, it cannot be created or destroyed. In essence, energy can be converted from one form into another.

We go on in other forms.

Asiaprod

Thaedydal wrote:

We go on in other forms.

For example?

homah_7ft

Thaedydal wrote:

Quote:
First Law of Thermodynamics: Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. The total amount of energy and matter in the Universe remains constant, merely changing from one form to another. The First Law of Thermodynamics (Conservation) states that energy is always conserved, it cannot be created or destroyed. In essence, energy can be converted from one form into another.


We go on in other forms.

Unfortunately it doesn't stop there. The second law of thermodynamics dooms us all I'm afraid. The energy may be conserved but it tends to increase in entropy. In the end we get complete disorder and chaos.

biko

Thaedydal wrote:

Quote:
First Law of Thermodynamics: Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. The total amount of energy and matter in the Universe remains constant, merely changing from one form to another. The First Law of Thermodynamics (Conservation) states that energy is always conserved, it cannot be created or destroyed. In essence, energy can be converted from one form into another.


We go on in other forms.QUOTE]

Unfortunately it doesn't stop there. The second law of thermodynamics dooms us all I'm afraid. The energy may be conserved but it tends to increase in entropy. In the end we get complete disorder and chaos.

Why do my quotes not come up in blue?

Look at your quote brackets, you'll see why.

I think that believing in a second existance/reincarnation/heaven is
1. bad because it may restrain you in THIS existance
2. good because it will give people without hope for a better life something to hold on to.

saibhne

Asiaprod wrote:

I would be nice if you could explain that one a little more clearly, it is rather confusing,
[/LEFT]

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Here goes!

The way I have heard and read it posed is that our "souls" (call it what you will) is an energetic body part of the universal energy that is everything. Your soul is capable of deciding to incarnate as whatever form it desires in this three dimensional universe.
However, it (your soul) can make a decision as to how much energy it will devote to each incarnation depending on what it reckons it will get out of that life. This hinges on the premise that the reason you live your life is to experience everything and grow accordingly - (very difficult for me to express the technicalities of this idea right now)
If you accept the premise above that experience is the goal then the soul chooses which incarnations it and the universe will most benefit from. This is quite a complicated choice I'm sure but a very simple example would be if a soul was in need of experiencing and learning love to be born into a warm and caring environment, equally and to keep a balance (karma) a soul in need of experiencing hate would choose a recepetive environment to fulfill that.

A soul can then choose to devote as much energy to that incarnation as needed to complete the lesson. Harder and more valuable lessons tend to need a lot more of an energy investment.
The growth in population mentioned by The Atheist would be a consequence of many souls dividing their energy into many beings and also a increased concentration of souls wishing to incarnate on this earth as opposed to other less fruitful options available in the universe. Apparently the earth is a very difficult place to exist by universal standards - a lot of hardship.

Related to this growth is that I have heard that we on earth are currently at the beginning of a turbulent time where many hard lessons can be learned due to the difficulty of the circumstances we are/will be faced with. Due to the uniqueness of this period many souls choose to be incarnated now as the lessons available will be quite valuable.

There you go..

robindch

> I think these oriental religions could teach their
> wester counterparts a thing or to when it comes
> to sqeezing money from the faithful.

A hideous thought -- do tell more!

BTW, a quick google turned up the Korean Yoido Gospel Church (funny visitor's report here). Looks like it's just the same as the frightful 25,000-people per week outfit I visited in Dallas and where I copped out and bought a $2.50 tin box of own-brand peppermints (http://www.fellowshipchurch.com/ -- for a laugh, find their christmas-day 'service' schedule ). A completely weird place; go there if yiz're in Dallas!

Asiaprod

saibhne wrote:

Your soul is capable of deciding to incarnate as whatever form it desires in this three dimensional universe.
However, it (your soul) can make a decision as to how much energy it will devote to each incarnation depending on what it reckons it will get out of that life. This hinges on the premise that the reason you live your life is to experience everything and grow accordingly - (very difficult for me to express the technicalities of this idea right now)

No, you have expressed yourself very well. This is one account I have never seen or heard. Having the capability to decide when to reincarnate and how much energy to use very interesting concept. One I have never thought about. Can you tell me where you read it?

If you accept the premise above that experience is the goal then the soul chooses which incarnations it and the universe will most benefit from. This is quite a complicated choice I'm sure but a very simple example would be if a soul was in need of experiencing and learning love to be born into a warm and caring environment, equally and to keep a balance (karma) a soul in need of experiencing hate would choose a receptive environment to fulfill that.

This kind of ties in with something I have always considered. That one of the main purposes behind reincarnation was to over the duration experience ever kind of condition, starting at say the most unhappy and as a result of how you did, move onward to bigger and better things. A bad example would be say you started as a beggar in India and moved on to a millionaire in New York.

Must hand it to you, you did a great job explaining that. I think I will take time out to study this idea. Every idea has some benefit if one can only find it. Thank for your insight

Asiaprod

robindch wrote:

A hideous thought -- do tell more!

Well lets see
Buying names for the deceased to get them a better place in the afterlife (Shinto)
Buying names for deceased pets (Zen) and their grave site.
Charging huge fees for grave sites,
Charging a yearly maintenance fee (usually nothing is done).
Charging for each new urn interned despite the fact that you have already paid for the site.
Charging for each urn removed from the site you own.
Charging fees to bless ground before a new house is built (socially an obligatory event)
New years dues
End of year dues.
Chargeable ceremonies for every event you could possibly think of.
This list could go on all day.
There are of course religions that are truly religious and do not charge these kinds of fees.

saibhne

Asiaprod wrote:

No, you have expressed yourself very well. This is one account I have never seen or heard. Having the capability to decide when to reincarnate and how much energy to use very interesting concept. One I have never thought about. Can you tell me where you read it?

The most straightforward explanation I have read was from a guy called Michael Newton - a psychologist who used hypnotherapy to regress people past their birth to the consciousness they experienced before being born. I liked him because of the scientific methodology used but interestingly his findings tie in with a lot of age old spiritual teachings - e.g. he deals with the idea of Karma well.

A few of his books are here: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1567184855/002-2848204-6719246?v=glance&n=283155

Enjoy - let me know what you think if you have a read of them

Dave!

Stephen wrote:

I believe that once you're dead, that's it. Worm food.

yep, me too

Donangel

hey everyone,

actually i do believe in an after life, and i am almost sure of it,its a feeling i get every morning i awake and everytime i go to bed.i think its impossible that our lives will end the moment we shut our eyes and die. i mean why is it so hard to grasp! there are so many things happen everyday that has no explanation none what-so-ever and we still accept it, and call it luck or a coincidence or whatever.

and i dont think we can analyse things in the way we think now,because we are obliged to follow the laws of this world and material that we are encased in.i think when we die the whole equation will be changed and we will have totaly different variables, let alone our point of views which will totally be different as will we,

think about it,...

Excelsior

Asiaprod wrote:

I would love to hear your understanding of what heaven will be like. The understanding forced into me was of sitting around all day praising God, and that really did not go down well with me. What do you think its like?

First off, Christianity is in the common mind, often seen as obbsessed with heaven. Let me quote NT Wright, the Bishop of Durham and one of the greatest theologians alive when he said, "Heaven is all well and good, but its not the end of the world"

Heaven, in the Bible, is often talked about as being on Earth, but in a redeemed and so utterly different Earth. We are told more about our state in heaven than what state heaven is in. So there will be no tears and discontent but satisfaction and joy.

CS Lewis puts it best for me when he says that life in heaven is like a really great novel. Each day or chapter is better than the last. We always want to know what we will fill our "days" with in Heaven and I feel the same sense of dreaded boredom at the picture of heaven as a massive hymn session that is often presented. But we are bred to think about happiness as something we achieve by doing. As a Buddhist, you surely will aggree with the Christian idea that in Heaven, we will be happy not because of what we do, but because of who we are.

The twist that differs from Buddhism of course is that we find out who we are because of who we spend our time with. In Heaven, we spend our time with our Creator and through relationship with him, fulfillment is found.

Still, I really want to beat Karl Marx at chess so I hope there is a games room amongst the many rooms of our Father's mansion.