"God told me to do it"

Freelancer

wiseones2cents wrote:

There is no doubt that Communism was corrupted. It suppressed Religion, And had a tight grip on an unreligious military & police. Those were its 2 biggest mistakes. Which opened up the doors to Dictatorships.

Capitalism allows Criminals to invest into the Economy, eventually taking it over. Criminals make minimum(and this is the lower level ones) 1,000 a week.
The bigger ones make Millions a week. Then they Invest it into the Capitalist system(After money is laundered).

Wow I didn't realise there was a pay scale for criminals :rolleyes:

One word. Socialism, with a strong religious based society.

Oh look I asked for a specific example and got a general piece of nonsense. Seeing as the leader of socialist thought Marx; thought that religion was the opium of the masses, I'm sure you can give some specific examples of this bizarre paradox of a society that you claim is a working alternative.

Capitalists go to wars to keep their wealth. That is why Socialists went Communist. Communism is forced Socialism, to compete agaainst capitalists. But the Communists could not compete with the Capitalists(better bank Credit). The Capitalists would tempt key people away from Communist countries with larger money the Communist country could not afford.

Therefore one of the reasons socialism failed was because of the greed of Capitalism.

I swear is this from the big book of over simplisitic explainations of how the world works?

Oh and New Zealand lived without y'know metal and petrol for how many centuries?

Thats great and all. But pretty much an inane argument new zealand lived without pencillin for how many centuries are you going to suggest to someone who's child is dying of an infection, "hey we didn't need it before"?

For example New Zealand could not handle one of it's main resource (sheep) without foreign animal mediciations and a market for the meat and wool.

The suggestion the New Zealand can survive without foreign market interaction is just incredibly easy to laugh at......

wiseones2cents

The Corinthian wrote:

And where are you getting this from this time? The Big Bird Book of Financial Mismanagement? Where are you pulling these ‘facts’ - or are you, as I suspect, simply making them up as you go along?

Where do I get these facts? From the streets. I was raised around many criminals and know how a capitalist economy operates. Legitimate businesses cannot compete with Criminally funded businesses.Unless he/she is an Entrepeneur and has a product no one has.

I’ve offered sources, but to date all you’ve offered is what you say is written in a children’s book, which you appear to be using as your sole source.

I've also offered Common sense. They have everything you need for a Surviving economy. So how did they accumulate such a large debt?

I see. You mean a theocracy.

Yes. A theocracy in todays day an age would have never allowed the unchristian like behaviour that is being promoted by so called Christian nations. The drug promoting, violence promoting, immorality promoting, arrogance promoting, that is origionating from so called Christian nations.
The sad thing is religious leaders in America remain quiet but yet are very vocal when it comes to Gays and Abortions.We will need a Christian leader that is a real Christian and not a Christian in his own mind.

No, what you just described is the greed of people - they went to the system that offered more.

You miss the point.If there was no temptation of more money, They would be happy where they were.

Then why did their balance of trade improve after they opened up their economy?

Has it Improved? They are selling more(Sheep) but for less money. Which also means that their imports also have tripled. So now they have to sell 3X the amount of sheep to buy what they could have bought with 1/2 a sheep..If all currency were equal it would be ok, but then who would want to trade with them(In regards to Sheep)?That is why I support a one world government.The earth's resources should be shared by all.But Not the current ones that are running the planet now. They want a one world government for domination and not for the best Interest of the earth. That is why Free Trade is a dangerous Idea at this point in time.

Let’s all go back to pre-industrial tribal communities then. Wait... let’s not.

And that’s really where your entire economic philosophy seems to fall apart, because it presupposes that people would be happy to sacrifice their modern standard of living for some form of pre-industrial agrarian utopia. They don’t, that’s the reality.

They dont have to sacrifice their modern standards of Living with my idea
above.

Of course this does not mean that Capitalism would magically provide everything they seek, but it does offer a better deal, even if it is only superficial. All you’re suggesting is a theoretical distopia based upon little more than your own ill-informed opinion.

I have been monitoring Capitalist systems world wide for quite some time. And I've noticed that only a small percentage of the Population benefit. And where a greater majority benefit, a population is paying the price for it elsewhere.

For a Capitalist system to survive, it needs more markets. Roosevelt was one of the first to come to this conclusion.(I recall one of his speeches). Competition just kills too many markets and causes huge debts. Bankrupcies are common.

You benefit from international trade from the goods and services that you purchase that you would not have without that trade. You benefit from it by selling back other goods and services. The same goes for expertise – or are you suggesting you’ve never benefited from anything that was developed or invented outside your own country?

You missed the whole point. All these things have come at an enslaving cost.

I am for trade but even more for one world government as I pointed out. The earth's resources Should not belong to any country. They belong to all the earth's Inhabitants. But the greedy own everything today. So we are going to need a) A world wide revolution or b) A global economic collapse.

Oh wait, you’re using the internet, and for that matter, you’re posting to an Irish bulletin board.

If Canadian life would go back to how it was before free trade, I would gladly give up the Internet.

But you’ve failed to demonstrate how, either it was a viable or even self-sufficient economy prior to it being opened up, or how it is Capitalism that has allegedly hurt it.

How capitalism has hurt it? I wonder how many New Zealanders live in Debt?
America's high standard of living is due to incurring debt. Many Americans live in debt. I think the entire national debt is 8+ Trillion dollars. And the Interest is ALmost 3 billion a day. Now explain to me how Capitalism is a success?

Most of the rules of Capitalism have been broken to speed up its demise. Big corporations no longer pay taxes on Profit(regardless of the lies you have heard), Monopolies, Mergers and takeovers are on the rise(which is illegal in a Capitalist society). America stopped being a Capitalist system decades ago and you are still unaware.

So you base how qualified someone is in economics on:

1. Whether they agree with you.
2. God told you so.

Given the title of this thread, I find the latter as ironic as it is disturbing.

Capitalism is a failure. Here are the states, you may find it interesting.
http://www.alkalizeforhealth.net/Ldebtclock.htm

You wont think it is so disturbing when you see the American economy take a nose dive as predicted.

In other words you have no qualifications at all in the economic sciences. Have you at least studied basic economics? Read a grown-up book perhaps?

A read a few Economic books and together with actual experiences am starting to understand Global economics more and more each day. All I can tell you is that the American Economy will self destruct.

The bible is not an economic textbook. Can you cite any reliable source for what you’re saying?

When you understand that the very foundation of society was built on the Bible, you will understand that The Bible covers ALL topics.

You’re not actually bothering to read what I’m writing are you? New Zealand moved to a market economy precisely because its protectionist model was being sustained on credit.

Of coarse I am. Are you reading mine? The bretton woods system, imposed by capitalists is responsible.

Of course, you seem to prefer religion as a guiding force, and it’s never started a war, has it?

That is Correct. Religion has Never started wars. RELIGIOUS PEOPLE that mis-interprit the Bible(most for their own personal agendas)have caused the wars. Do you think this war today is about Religion or about greed? The Christians that support war are being mislead by religious leaders that know nothing about Christianity. Jesus preached peace, not war. So the message
got mixed up somewhere down the road. The Muslims, Believe that the 2nd coming of the Messiah will bring the destruction of the earth. Though Jesus does NOT say that. Jesus will change the world as we know it. But It will live on. The Bible says that their will be PEACE when the Messiah comes. He will make peace between Judah and Ephraim. Now Ephraim are a half tribe. 1/2 Egyptian. 1/2 Israeli. And they settled in Syria. Therefore the Palestinians,Syrians, Egyptians and many more Arab nations may be from the tribe of Ephraim that will make peace with the Jews. Though Muslim religious leaders preach that the jews must be totally destroyed and this is false. If Israel is attacked, millions, upon millions will die(Arab and Israelis).Now that Israel is willing to make peace, it should not be attacked. Since America is the Aggressor here, America is a legitimate target. Iraqi resistence against American Imperialism and its agents of aggression is Justifiable.As long as the Resistence does not target Innocent civilians. America will not win this war. Especially if and when the war starts to open up on more fronts from neighbouring countries.

I agree, but if they don’t then you have to ask why they don’t and adapt accordingly, not put you head in the sand and pretend nothings going on. That’s how humanity has managed to progress throughout history.

I cant believe we agree on something. If we agree, how can you support outsourcing?Are not capitalist countries importing things that they should be producing at home?

He never had Middle East oil. Also I notice you’ve backtracked on your claim that he almost took over the World.

Did they not invade northern Africa(which has oil)?How long before they made their way to the Middle east? After he secured Europe. All he had to do was sit back. Now we are not going to get into the war and the mistakes made by Germany and Japan are we?

wiseones2cents

Freelancer wrote:

Wow I didn't realise there was a pay scale for criminals :rolleyes:

Oh but there is. And it is much larger than the legitimate working man.

Oh look I asked for a specific example and got a general piece of nonsense. Seeing as the leader of socialist thought Marx; thought that religion was the opium of the masses, I'm sure you can give some specific examples of this bizarre paradox of a society that you claim is a working alternative.

Marx's was a Communist. Not a socialist. There is a big Difference. Socialism was dreamed up by French and British. Therfore when you use Communism as an example of Socialist failure, you err in your conclusion. They are 2 different
systems.

I swear is this from the big book of over simplisitic explainations of how the world works?

Do you want to know the true success of the American economy in the past in even more simple explanation? The American economy was the only Economy not harmed(remained intact) by both world wars. Actually America profitted Enormously by them. While the other economies were left in ruins.
War and Coruption led to the Russia economic collapse. Not Communism.

Thats great and all. But pretty much an inane argument new zealand lived without pencillin for how many centuries are you going to suggest to someone who's child is dying of an infection, "hey we didn't need it before

For example New Zealand could not handle one of it's main resource (sheep) without foreign animal mediciations and a market for the meat and wool.

The suggestion the New Zealand can survive without foreign market interaction is just incredibly easy to laugh at......

What does Penicillan have to do with what I am saying
People have been raising sheep before the invention of penicillan.

It is not trade I am suggesting New Zealand live without. It is Imperial Capitalism that is the problem.

wiseones2cents

Oh by the way Corinthian man. I notice you overlooked this statement.

Thats funny. I am not benefitting from Capitalism.When Canada was Socialist,one person could raise a family comfortably. Now(with capitalism) 2 people working are struggling to pay the bills. I hear Britain has the same problem. People working 2-3 jobs.

Note:doesn't sound like Capitalism is a success to me......

The Corinthian

wiseones2cents wrote:

Where do I get these facts? From the streets. I was raised around many criminals and know how a capitalist economy operates. Legitimate businesses cannot compete with Criminally funded businesses.Unless he/she is an Entrepeneur and has a product no one has.

That’s nothing more than opinion based on anecdotal evidence that you don’t even bother to give. You hand us a list of presumptions then ask us to take your word for it - worthless.

I've also offered Common sense.

You’ve offered opinion and presumption and called it common sense. That’s not the same thing. I’ve offered fact.

Yes. A theocracy in todays day an age would have never allowed the unchristian like behaviour that is being promoted by so called Christian nations. The drug promoting, violence promoting, immorality promoting, arrogance promoting, that is origionating from so called Christian nations.

No it would most likely have carried out bloody inquisitions and suppressed heresy, as did Christianity in the past, or as essentially is carried out by fundamentalist Islam in the present. Personally I cannot imagine more obscene or arrogant behaviour than that.

You miss the point.If there was no temptation of more money, They would be happy where they were.

No, you miss the point - this is human nature. We strive for more, and even if it is not readily available we seek it out or create it. Capitalism is simply a term attached to an economic system that has been in development as long as we’ve had civilization.

They dont have to sacrifice their modern standards of Living with my idea
above.

And what of the resources that they cannot get locally? Such a closed economy might work for somewhere like Canada or Russia, but how about Japan or Malta? I suppose we could all drive around in solar powered cars - but not at night.

Again you’re asking us to accept your opinion that they would not have to sacrifice their modern standards of living with your idea, as fact, without providing an argument why, let alone evidence that it is possible. So frankly you’re still wallowing in fantasy.

You missed the whole point. All these things have come at an enslaving cost.

Everything has a cost, even your blessed religion.

You wont think it is so disturbing when you see the American economy take a nose dive as predicted.

I find it disturbing, because I find al fanaticism, including religious, disturbing.

A read a few Economic books and together with actual experiences am starting to understand Global economics more and more each day. All I can tell you is that the American Economy will self destruct.

It may well, but despite your ravings, rather than because of them.

When you understand that the very foundation of society was built on the Bible, you will understand that The Bible covers ALL topics.

The very foundation of society was NOT built on the Bible. What cock-and-bull history teacher taught you that? The foundations of our society as rooted in the Hellenistic traditions of pagan Greece and Rome as they are in Christianity.

Of coarse I am. Are you reading mine? The bretton woods system, imposed by capitalists is responsible.

And I showed you the facts - that with the exception of the oil crisis (that affected everyone) their balance of trade has improved since their opening up their economy. You can blather all you want about the Bretton woods system, but what you said about their balance of trade getting worse is FALSE.

That is Correct. Religion has Never started wars. RELIGIOUS PEOPLE that mis-interprit the Bible(most for their own personal agendas)have caused the wars.

People like you? Or I take it you could never misinterpret the Bible?

Do you think this war today is about Religion or about greed?

You’ll often find the two walk hand in hand. Or is that just more people who’ve misinterpreted the Bible? How convenient.

The Christians that support war are being mislead by religious leaders that know nothing about Christianity. Jesus preached peace, not war. So the message
got mixed up somewhere down the road. The Muslims, Believe that the 2nd coming of the Messiah will bring the destruction of the earth. Though Jesus does NOT say that. Jesus will change the world as we know it. But It will live on. The Bible says that their will be PEACE when the Messiah comes. He will make peace between Judah and Ephraim. Now Ephraim are a half tribe. 1/2 Egyptian. 1/2 Israeli. And they settled in Syria. Therefore the Palestinians,Syrians, Egyptians and many more Arab nations may be from the tribe of Ephraim that will make peace with the Jews. Though Muslim religious leaders preach that the jews must be totally destroyed and this is false. If Israel is attacked, millions, upon millions will die(Arab and Israelis).Now that Israel is willing to make peace, it should not be attacked. Since America is the Aggressor here, America is a legitimate target. Iraqi resistence against American Imperialism and its agents of aggression is Justifiable.As long as the Resistence does not target Innocent civilians. America will not win this war. Especially if and when the war starts to open up on more fronts from neighbouring countries.

Err... ahem... right. Valid question at this point in the discussion: do you have a history of mental illness?

I cant believe we agree on something. If we agree, how can you support outsourcing?Are not capitalist countries importing things that they should be producing at home?

Again you’re not listening. Markets change, the World changes - that is the only constant. If you do not adapt to that change you will be outsourced.

Did they not invade northern Africa(which has oil)?

No. Much of North Africa was already under the Axis - most notably Libya, which was an Italian colony. For Hitler North Africa and Greece were distractions that he was forced into by Italy, his primary interest was always Russia and the Lebensraum it afforded the German Reich.

How long before they made their way to the Middle east? After he secured Europe. All he had to do was sit back. Now we are not going to get into the war and the mistakes made by Germany and Japan are we?

Feel free to do so as you seem to have little historical knowledge of the period. I can happily continue correcting you all day.

The Corinthian

wiseones2cents wrote:

Oh by the way Corinthian man. I notice you overlooked this statement.

Thats funny. I am not benefitting from Capitalism.When Canada was Socialist,one person could raise a family comfortably. Now(with capitalism) 2 people working are struggling to pay the bills. I hear Britain has the same problem. People working 2-3 jobs.

Noteoesn't sound like Capitalism is a success to me......

To begin with it was irrelevant to the point I was making, which was not to defend Capitalism, but to point out that you were stating factually inaccuracies on the New Zealand economy.

Also, I think you’ll find that, even adjusting for inflation, your average Canadian is now a lot better off:

http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepub/11-516-XIE/sectione/sectione.htm

So perhaps it’s just you who’s not doing so well...

lili

i come back to the title of this thread : "god told me to do it"

i just saw a report on the contracts which will be signed by the occidental oil companies. it's amazing! contracts which will rule iraqi oil for 30 years!
i think we are back to a sort of colonialism:eek:

i didn't know that god was into economical stuff.

edanto

The Corinthian wrote:

Err... ahem... right. Valid question at this point in the discussion: do you have a history of mental illness?

Mate, I don't know where the line is on personal insults, but what are you implying by asking him/her this question? You're pretty good at typing, could you not think of a better rebuttal?

lili, coud you link to that report please? I tried a little google and didn't see it - I was distracted by one of the hits -

The four giant firms located in the US and the UK have been keen to get back into Iraq, from which they were excluded with the nationalization of 1972. During the final years of the Saddam era, they envied companies from France, Russia, China, and elsewhere, who had obtained major contracts. But UN sanctions (kept in place by the US and the UK) kept those contracts inoperable. Since the invasion and occupation of Iraq in 2003, everything has changed. In the new setting, with Washington running the show, "friendly" companies expect to gain most of the lucrative oil deals that will be worth hundreds of billions of dollars in profits in the coming decades. The new Iraqi constitution of 2005, greatly influenced by US advisors, contains language that guarantees a major role for foreign companies.

That might point to motive in the future case of history vs Bush Inc.

Stay tuned folks, despite all the econobabble and off topicing, I think we might be getting closer to finding out more about who really told Bush to do it...

The Corinthian

edanto wrote:

Mate, I don't know where the line is on personal insults, but what are you implying by asking him/her this question? You're pretty good at typing, could you not think of a better rebuttal?

What would you prefer me to say? Nitpick on the finer points of scripture?

The guy comes out with one of the scariest examples of religious fundamentalist diatribe I’ve heard in a while, so asking if he has a history of mental illness becomes as valid as asking how he is qualified to speak with authority on economic matters. I know that such a question can be construed as a personal attack, but the reality is that all too often than not, when someone starts to attribute current affairs to Biblical prophecy it’s because they suffer from some form of mental illness.

lili

edanto wrote:

lili, coud you link to that report please? I tried a little google and didn't see it - I was distracted by one of the hits -


..

it was a report for tv. so i just can talk about it for what i heard. i can provide a link but it's in french and it doesn't give all have been said in this report. what i can say it's that those contracts are ready and wait the end of elections.

wiseones2cents

The Corinthian wrote:

That’s nothing more than opinion based on anecdotal evidence that you don’t even bother to give. You hand us a list of presumptions then ask us to take your word for it - worthless.

Anyone that has followed Economics, knows this to be true. Any Proof of criminal activity would be past tense no?I have heard rumours that Enron was one of those companies.

You’ve offered opinion and presumption and called it common sense. That’s not the same thing. I’ve offered fact.

I have illustrated that Imperial Capitalism has made things better(FOR THE SHORT TERM) but at a enslaving cost.

No it would most likely have carried out bloody inquisitions and suppressed heresy, as did Christianity in the past, or as essentially is carried out by fundamentalist Islam in the present. Personally I cannot imagine more obscene or arrogant behaviour than that.

Times have changed. People are becoming more familiar with the Bible these days. People are not as Naive as they used to be(for the most part). They are harder to fool by False Religious leaders(Although as it is obvious,some are still fooled).But most are not.

No, you miss the point - this is human nature. We strive for more, and even if it is not readily available we seek it out or create it. Capitalism is simply a term attached to an economic system that has been in development as long as we’ve had civilization.

It May be human nature, but so is murder. Should we accept that also?
Your argument is weak.

There is healthy striving and unhealthy.Capitalism caused unhealthy striving.
Ambition is one thing but GREED is another. Capitalism encourages greed.

And what of the resources that they cannot get locally? Such a closed economy might work for somewhere like Canada or Russia, but how about Japan or Malta? I suppose we could all drive around in solar powered cars - but not at night.

I dont think you are paying attention.Did I not say that is what they should trade for?Even more so I support a United earth. Does Ontario profit from Quebec for its resources?NO. It only pays extra for the workers and transportation costs. Maybe now they do, now that our resources have been privatized. I think Ontario now is being charged extra for its own resources.
Which explains the tripling of costs.

Again you’re asking us to accept your opinion that they would not have to sacrifice their modern standards of living with your idea, as fact, without providing an argument why, let alone evidence that it is possible. So frankly you’re still wallowing in fantasy.

Canada was a socialist country before and the Capitalist Americans had no problems with selling us their products and vice versa. So explain to me how my opinion sacrifices their modern standards?

Everything has a cost, even your blessed religion.

Religion has no cost. The only thing you need is the cost to learn to read and a Bible.Even my Bible was given to me free. The Only cost I have to think about is the cost of living a peaceful life. The Holy Spirit is also given free of Charge. That guides your steps.

I have noticed there are many vocal Aethiests on these boards. This is a sad thing indeed.

I find it disturbing, because I find al fanaticism, including religious, disturbing.

Something tells me you will become a believer soon enough and hard times are headed your way.

It may well, but despite your ravings, rather than because of them.

It wil fall because capitalism is a failure.

The very foundation of society was NOT built on the Bible. What cock-and-bull history teacher taught you that? The foundations of our society as rooted in the Hellenistic traditions of pagan Greece and Rome as they are in Christianity.

And you think that Religion did not Guide Greece and Rome?Where were the Israeli's exiled to by the Babylonians?GREECE. Who claimed to be a son of a GOD? Alexander the great. Who Influenced Alexander? Romans were Influenced by Etruscians(People of the book) Who also origionated from 12 tribes. Where did the Laws of Greece and Rome origionally origionate? From the Bible.....

And I showed you the facts - that with the exception of the oil crisis (that affected everyone) their balance of trade has improved since their opening up their economy. You can blather all you want about the Bretton woods system, but what you said about their balance of trade getting worse is FALSE.

They have an Unstable economy. Wait Until the poorer Asian countries start selling cheaper exports. Then what will happen to the New Zealand economy?
How will they sustain thier debts?

People like you? Or I take it you could never misinterpret the Bible?

Since I do not call for wars of Aggression, I do not mis-interpret the Bible in regards to war, but recognize the legitimacy of resistence to an aggressor.

You’ll often find the two walk hand in hand. Or is that just more people who’ve misinterpreted the Bible? How convenient.

True Religion and greed do not walk hand and hand. Man and Greed walk hand and hand.

Err... ahem... right. Valid question at this point in the discussion: do you have a history of mental illness?

Do you accuse all men of faith to have a mental illness?I have a question for you. How long have you been blind and deaf?

Again you’re not listening. Markets change, the World changes - that is the only constant. If you do not adapt to that change you will be outsourced.

What does the fact that markets change have to do with outsourcing? Adapting is one thing but Outsourcing your economy?There is absolutely no benefit to that except for the ones that have not lost their jobs(YET) and to the importers(which spells higher profit margins).

No. Much of North Africa was already under the Axis - most notably Libya, which was an Italian colony. For Hitler North Africa and Greece were distractions that he was forced into by Italy, his primary interest was always Russia and the Lebensraum it afforded the German Reich.

Feel free to do so as you seem to have little historical knowledge of the period. I can happily continue correcting you all day.

I do not have the time to get into this.

wiseones2cents

The Corinthian wrote:

To begin with it was irrelevant to the point I was making, which was not to defend Capitalism, but to point out that you were stating factually inaccuracies on the New Zealand economy.

Also, I think you’ll find that, even adjusting for inflation, your average Canadian is now a lot better off:

http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepub/11-516-XIE/sectione/sectione.htm

So perhaps it’s just you who’s not doing so well...

Sounded like you were defending capitalism to me. Now since Capitalism has been proven a failure. What do you think is the end result of the New Zealand economy?

New Zealand has always been a British colony. Now All Nations have their claws in it. You know what they say about too many chefs dont you? It ruins the stew.

As far as Canada? Our Economy is SOLID because we have an Abundance of resources. Though Are resources are being sold off(Privatized) and sold back to us at triple the cost. So tell me how the fact that Inflation is stable, Have to do with anything? 90% Of our pay goes to taxes and energy/fuel. We have become America. Where we need to accumulate debt to survive. Try saving today in Canada.Those days are gone.You now need husband and wife working together now just to break even and save a few pennies.

So tell me how Canadians are better off? This is a myth circulated by Capitalists.

Actually I am doing fine, Thank you. Though I am single, do not have a wife to support,do not have a mortgage, rent or children to raise and dont have any bad habits like Drinking, Smoking, gambling,ect...

I have adapted and live life very simple and am content. Though around me is chaos.

The Corinthian

wiseones2cents wrote:

Anyone that has followed Economics, knows this to be true. Any Proof of criminal activity would be past tense no?I have heard rumours that Enron was one of those companies.

Anyone who has followed current affairs knows that Capitalism, like any other political or economic system is open to corruption. But that’s about it, to prove anything further you realistically have to make a case for it, backed up with evidence.

I have illustrated that Imperial Capitalism has made things better(FOR THE SHORT TERM) but at a enslaving cost.

Actually you’ve not demonstrated anything. You’ve presented an unsubstantiated opinion, that’s all.

Times have changed. People are becoming more familiar with the Bible these days. People are not as Naive as they used to be(for the most part). They are harder to fool by False Religious leaders(Although as it is obvious,some are still fooled).But most are not.

Actually, I think you’ll that the opposite is true; people are becoming more secular and not ‘more familiar’ with the Bible these days. Also you again state fact based upon nothing more than opinion that people are less naive than in the (undefined) past.

Finally, this all is based upon your conviction that you are not one of these naive individuals and that you’ve got it right. And guess what, if you were in fact one of these naive individuals, you’d still be just as convinced that you’ve got it right.

It May be human nature, but so is murder. Should we accept that also?
Your argument is weak.

It’s arguable how much part of human nature murder is, however I’ll humour your point. Murder is always an anti-social trait, and that is why it is not tolerated. Greed is not. Like it or not, without greed we have no commerce and without commerce we have no community.

There is healthy striving and unhealthy.Capitalism caused unhealthy striving.
Ambition is one thing but GREED is another. Capitalism encourages greed.

Of course arguing against excessive greed is fair enough. But then your simile with murder would fail as you can’t make a similar comparison. You can’t have excessive murder, after all.

Canada was a socialist country before and the Capitalist Americans had no problems with selling us their products and vice versa. So explain to me how my opinion sacrifices their modern standards?

Canada was not a socialist country. Never was. Don’t confuse protectionism or even a welfare state with socialism.

Religion has no cost. The only thing you need is the cost to learn to read and a Bible.Even my Bible was given to me free. The Only cost I have to think about is the cost of living a peaceful life. The Holy Spirit is also given free of Charge. That guides your steps.

History would disagree - religion has done a lot of good throughout it, but it has also caused a lot of harm; everything from the crusades, jihads, inquisitions, honour killings, though to the abduction and brainwashing of people by cults and the abuse of children in religious schools.

Of course, your argument is no doubt that they had it all wrong. They were naive, perhaps evil too. Of course, there’s no reason other than your own self-righteous conviction that that you’re different; that you’re right. Is that faith or arrogance?

I have noticed there are many vocal Aethiests on British boards. This is a sad thing indeed.

This is not a British board; it’s Irish. For that matter you may consider us European.

Something tells me you will become a believer soon enough and hard times are headed your way.

Is it the Bible again or wishful thinking on your part?

It wil fall because capitalism is a failure.

Nice circular argument. Next you’ll tell us how you’re right because everything you’re saying is correct.

And you think that Religion did not Guide Greece and Rome?Where were the Israeli's exiled to by the Babylonians?GREECE. Who claimed to be a son of a GOD? Alexander the great. Who Influenced Alexander? Romans were Influenced by Etruscians(People of the book) Who also origionated from 12 tribes. Where did the Laws of Greece and Rome origionally origionate? From the Bible.....

It’s rare to find so many historical inaccuracies packed in so closely. Anyhow:

• Religion definitely guided both Greece and Rome, but it was pagan and not derived from the Bible (until much later, under Constantine), which is what you claimed.
• The Jews suffered a good few Diaspora’s throughout ancient history, but there’s no evidence to say that they went to any one place. Most would have naturally ended up in Asia Minor (now Turkey) and Egypt, as well as to the Persian east.
• Additionally you’ll find that many pagan and pre-Christian figures claimed divine origins - including Gaius Julius Caesar, who claimed direct descendancy from the goddess Venus. Of course, none of these gods had anything to do with the Bible, which is what you claimed.
• The Etruscans were not ‘people of the book’. They were pagans. And where are you getting this 12 tribes myth (let alone a connection to the Etruscans)? A reliable source would be welcome at this point.
• The laws of Greece and Rome originated from the Greeks and Romans, not the Bible. Other that the blatant fact that Jewish and Hellenistic laws and traditions were radically different (how much of Leviticus 16 did the Greeks and Romans observe?), there’s absolutely no evidence to support this ridiculous claim.

They have an Unstable economy. Wait Until the poorer Asian countries start selling cheaper exports. Then what will happen to the New Zealand economy?
How will they sustain thier debts?

Are you still ignoring the facts I presented?

Since I do not call for wars of Aggression, I do not mis-interpret the Bible in regards to war, but recognize the legitimacy of resistence to an aggressor.

Last time I checked, the doctrine of pre-emptive action that fuels the War On Terror™ was officially based upon the response to an aggressor (i.e. the 9-11 attacks). The crusades were also justified on the basis of “resistance to an aggressor”.

As you can see, justification that it is only “resistance to an aggressor” is easy to find. No doubt you’d never do similar, but we only have your word for that.

True Religion and greed do not walk hand and hand. Man and Greed walk hand and hand.

Again, we only have your word for that.

Do you accuse all men of faith to have a mental illness?I have a question for you. How long have you been blind and deaf?

I do not accuse all men of faith of mental illness. However, I might suspect that men of seemingly delusional fanaticism, especially those who preach what appears to be an almost millennial doctrine, might be suffering from mental illness. But if you don’t want to respond to my question, I understand.

And I am neither blind nor deaf.

What does the fact that markets change have to do with outsourcing? Adapting is one thing but Outsourcing your economy?There is absolutely no benefit to that except for the ones that have not lost their jobs(YET) and to the importers(which spells higher profit margins).

I’m not really interested in giving you a lesson in basic microeconomics, however if another supplier becomes more competitive than you, business will go to them and you will lose it. Either you can artificially protect yourself or you can adapt. A classic example is where an industry has moved from the original market (where they could not compete with the lower wages of the developing World) and turned to the luxury market - where you’re often even trading in Giffen goods.

I do not have the time to get into this.

Very convenient, but I suspect it has less to do with time and more to do with your lack of knowledge in the area.

Sounded like you were defending capitalism to me. Now since Capitalism has been proven a failure. What do you think is the end result of the New Zealand economy?

I have not really been defending Capitalism. As an economic system it’s presently the best of the bad lot, in my opinion, but hardly either a success or a failure.

Of course it’s not been proven a failure (you’ve certainly not managed to do so as you’ve only supplied opinion, not proof). Which in turn would lead me to question your conclusion on the economy of New Zealand.

New Zealand has always been a British colony. Now All Nations have their claws in it. You know what they say about too many chefs dont you? It ruins the stew.

Other than being a cliché, is there a logical argument behind that?

So tell me how Canadians are better off? This is a myth circulated by Capitalists.

As opposed to your opinion, which is far more credible? No, your arguments are now becoming increasingly desperate. Unable to impose your opinion as fact you’re now approaching the point where any evidence to the contrary will be part of an evil Capitalist conspiracy.

Of course we only have your word for this. And apparently your interpretation of the Bible.

I think not.

Actually I am doing fine, Thank you. Though I am single, do not have a wife to support,do not have a mortgage, rent or children to raise and dont have any bad habits like Drinking, Smoking, gambling,ect...
I have adapted and live life very simple and am content. Though around me is chaos.

Chaos? They’re just having more fun than you.

wiseones2cents

The Corinthian wrote:

Anyone who has followed current affairs knows that Capitalism, like any other political or economic system is open to corruption. But that’s about it, to prove anything further you realistically have to make a case for it, backed up with evidence.

Ah you are finally starting to admit there exists corruption.Thats a start. Now where does a drug dealer,thief,ect have a better chance of Investing in the Economy and working his way up in ranks?In A capitalist system or Socialist system. Think about it....In America the criminals now have more power than the government. Evidence? have you not been hearing about the scandals?

Actually you’ve not demonstrated anything. You’ve presented an unsubstantiated opinion, that’s all.

When you look at the debt most countries are in that are tied to Capitalism. You will see my point is well made.

Actually, I think you’ll that the opposite is true; people are becoming more secular and not ‘more familiar’ with the Bible these days.

Maybe so, but we are talking about the religious,not the secular. Secularism is growing in fully developed countries but flourishing in the poor nations. Developed countries have taken their blessings for granted and will pay the price for it.People ARE less naive.Read your history books and you will see that I am right. people were VERY SUPERSTITIOUS back then and easily manipulated.

Finally, this all is based upon your conviction that you are not one of these naive individuals and that you’ve got it right.

Unlike the naive, I base my convictions on facts. Open your eyes and look around you. The facts are right in front of you.

It’s arguable how much part of human nature murder is, however I’ll humour your point. Murder is always an anti-social trait, and that is why it is not tolerated.

Is it Arguable? If there was no laws, I am sure many would be beaten to death. And Greed, is pro-social?Who do you know that likes a greedy person?
Without Greed we have no commerce or community? Without Greed we have Equality and balance. You've been reading one to many brainwashing Capitalist books. Your notion is complete nonsense and does not have a leg to stand on.

Of course arguing against excessive greed is fair enough. You can’t have excessive murder, after all.

Like I said before, It is one thing to be ambitious, but greedy is another thing.
Greedy take food away from the poor and to me that is just as bad as Murder.
You cant have excessive murder?Can you tell me the meaning of Genocide?

Canada was not a socialist country. Never was. Don’t confuse protectionism or even a welfare state with socialism.

Canada WAS a socialist country in the sense that all Its Utilities and resources were Government owned. Now they are foreign owned. But Canada did open up its markets to things we did not possess. Phone Companies, Automobile companies, McDonalds,ect...

History would disagree - religion has done a lot of good throughout it, but it has also caused a lot of harm; everything from the crusades, jihads, inquisitions, honour killings,

Is that faith or arrogance?.

Your arguments are becoming repetitive and so I will once again repeat myself. It is NOT religion that caused these wars but MAN that used Religious faith to decieve people to carry out THIER PERSONAL GREEDY OBJECTIVES disguised as GOD's will.(Sound familiar America?)

It is Faith. Arrogance is Blind Faith but I see all too well. And time has proven me right.

Is it the Bible again or wishful thinking on your part?

I do not wish disaster on anyone. You reap what you sow, It is common sense. History has always repeated itself. You will see the Collapse of the American economy soon enough.

Nice circular argument. Next you’ll tell us how you’re right because everything you’re saying is correct.

Did you not check out my link on American debt? 8 Trillion+ and counting?

It’s rare to find so many historical inaccuracies packed in so closely.
I had to edit.
[/LIST]

The Israelites were very Educated people in that time. Where ever they went they influenced Cultures. The Jews Were exiled from Babylon and were spread out. This is Correct. Some to Persia, Some to Medea, Some to Greece, ect.. When the Greeks took over they had with them many Greek Jews.Check your New Testament and you will see. Therefore the Israelites influenced many cultures.

All the Greek gods and Roman gods origionated from legends past by word of mouth. Then they built upon it. All religion Origionated from the same source.
If you read the German Book of Armageddon(Ragnarok) Or the Zoroster's book. Any Religious book for that mater. They all speak of a war between good and evil and a Golden age that will come about.

As far as the Etruscians? Just read the first Paragraph. http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/OM/BA/Har.html

And Finally. How much of the Bible do American Christians follow?Although was not American Law inspired by the bible? They were all coruptted as is America.

Are you still ignoring the facts I presented?

No you are ignoring facts.

Last time I checked, the doctrine of pre-emptive action that fuels the War On Terror™ was officially based upon the response to an aggressor (i.e. the 9-11 attacks). The crusades were also justified on the basis of “resistance to an aggressor”.

Everyone that has followed this war closely will tell you that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. But thanks to America, Al-Qaeda has an endless supply of recruits. The Crusades were justified by an Aggressor. An Egyptian Caliph, that decided to attack all Jewish and Christian structures. The Christians retaliated by slaughtering everyone.

Again, we only have your word for that.

Read the Bible and you will have more than my word but Also GOD's word.

I do not accuse all men of faith of mental illness. But if you don’t want to respond to my question, I understand..

Actually I did respond.

And I am neither blind nor deaf

Depends on who you ask I guess.

I’m not really interested in giving you a lesson in basic microeconomics, however if another supplier becomes more competitive than you, business will go to them and you will lose it. Either you can artificially protect yourself or you can adapt.

You can adapt? Now your really talking nonsense. How can you compete with countries(labourers) that work for 10 cents an hour. Some for under $20 a month?And what happens to all the people that lose their jobs as a result?

Very convenient, but I suspect it has less to do with time and more to do with your lack of knowledge in the area.

Actually It has everything to do with time. This is not the first time I have debated the world wars and am familiar with especially the second.

I have not really been defending Capitalism. As an economic system it’s presently the best of the bad lot, in my opinion, but hardly either a success or a failure.

Back peddling I see. Your still touting it as the best system when it clearly is not.

Of course it’s not been proven a failure.

Did you not read that Link I presented about the American economy?They are a sinking ship.

As opposed to your opinion, which is far more credible? No, your arguments are now becoming increasingly desperate.

Is stating facts a sign of desperation?:rolleyes:

Sounds like you are evading the whole issue. Let me post it AGAIN. I'd like to hear an intelligent response this time and not evasive maneuvering

As far as Canada? Our Economy is SOLID because we have an Abundance of resources. Though Are resources are being sold off(Privatized) and sold back to us at triple the cost. So tell me how the fact that Inflation is stable, Have to do with anything? 90% Of our pay goes to taxes and energy/fuel. We have become America. Where we need to accumulate debt to survive. Try saving today in Canada.Those days are gone.You now need husband and wife working together now just to break even and save a few pennies.

Of course we only have your word for this. And apparently your interpretation of the Bible.

I think not.

Then do your homework.

Chaos? They’re just having more fun than you.

Is that what you call all the coruption,poverty and crime sprees around me? People having fun?

Keep it coming. Your arguments grow more repetative, evasive and weaker every day.

P.S.I had to shorten some of your questions to make the page fit.

homeOwner

wiseone2cents wrote:

Socialism, with a strong religious based society.

wiseone2cents - i dont see any room for athiests in your utopian theocracy. What are you going to do with them - force them into exile? If history has taught us anything, its that you cant force religion on people without a fight. Ah yes, yet another war started in the name of the father.

wiseones2cents

homeOwner wrote:

wiseone2cents - i dont see any room for athiests in your utopian theocracy. What are you going to do with them - force them into exile? If history has taught us anything, its that you cant force religion on people without a fight. Ah yes, yet another war started in the name of the father.

An aethiest can believe what ever he/she likes and can live anyway and anywhere it likes under the Theocracy. BUT it must obey the Theocracy's LAWS! Simple as that. Any ruler knows that you cannot make an entire society happy. You start with the majority. And If he/she choses not to, it can move.

Now in the case where the Majority of the Population is Aethiest? That population will not stand for long, as we have witnessed in history and will soon witness again. America will fall because of its lawlessness and loose conduct. And the countires tied to her economic system will also feel it.

wiseones2cents

I like Corinthian to comment on this article. Doesn't sound like Capitalism is doing too well.....Sorry. Dont have the link

``You speak about Great Britain without specifying that to earn a living, people there have to have two or three jobs,'' Socialist lawmaker Henri Emmanuelli said in a radio interview. He added sarcastically: ``Even better than that would be slavery with a bowl of rice as recompense. That way there would be no unemployment at all.''

France Widens Search for Ecomonic Answers

By JOHN LEICESTER

PARIS (AP) - Generations of French children have grown up on the ``Asterix'' comic books and the myth of the leisurely British who were conquered by Rome because among their shortcomings was a horror of working on weekends. Today, instead of poking fun at their island neighbor, some in France are wondering whether they can learn from it.

Renewed interest in ``the Anglo-Saxon model'' springs from France's wider search for answers to its economic problems and its fears that the forces of globalization - a bit like the Romans in ``Asterix'' - threaten to sweep away the French way of life.

Politicians, sections of the French media and business executives note that France's unemployment rate - at 10.2 percent, rising to 23.3 percent among under-25s - is more than twice that of Britain. Some say it's because the British labor market is more flexible than France's. Others wonder whether Britain is doing better because it refused to adopt the euro, the currency used by 12 European nations including France.

Economic growth was an anemic 1.8 percent last year in the euro zone, with France faring a bit better at 2.3 percent, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD). British growth, in contrast, was 3.1 percent.

For the moment, radical reform does not appear on the agenda of the new French government put into place by President Jacques Chirac in response to France's May 29 referendum that dealt a stunning ``no'' to the European Union's proposed constitution.

The divisive national debate energized leftists, trade unions and anti-globalization campaigners behind the ``no.'' They would likely be the first to take to the streets at the merest hint that the government is thinking of treading the British path of the past two decades - breaking trade union power, freeing up labor markets, and privatizing railroads.

Even before the referendum, Chirac acknowledged that the British model was a nonstarter. ``Great Britain considers that economic development is paramount,'' said Chirac in a TV interview. ``The result is that they have half of our unemployment, but at a social cost that would not be accepted in France. I'm not casting judgment. It's a fact.''

As if to confirm their attachment to state-funded public services and strong labor and social protections, an exit poll found that 40 percent of ``no'' voters found the draft constitution too economically liberal.

But others are asking questions, not least Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy, who is widely believed to be planning a run for the presidency in 2007. He says the best social model is one that provides jobs for all, and that model ``is no longer ours.''

In a report last November comparing the two countries' systems, a group of French business leaders based in Britain said laying off workers is too hard in France, making companies reluctant to hire new people.

``Give us the freedom to hire and fire,'' they pleaded.

In Britain, the wage costs for a worker who pockets $37,000 a year are $51,760. In France, the same worker will cost a firm $85,035, the executives' report said.

Noting that Britain's per capita GDP has overtaken France's, it added: ``Taking inspiration from the United Kingdom is not cheating, and recognizing that is already a victory.''

The OECD ranks France as one of the toughest countries for firms to get rid of workers, with only Greece, Spain, Mexico, Turkey and Portugal even more regulated. Britain ranks with the United States, Canada, New Zealand and Ireland among countries where it's easiest to shed staff.

In France, roughly 25 percent of redundancies and firings are appealed to labor tribunals; In Britain, approximately seven percent are, the OECD estimates.

The Paris-based organization says that in France, a company would have to pay an average of 16 months salary to a veteran worker who wins an unfair dismissal case, while in Britain the compensation would be about half that.

The French media also are looking beyond the nation's borders for answers.

In a story headlined, ``Recipes that work,'' the daily Le Parisien examined the British, Dutch and Danish systems. British Prime Minister Tony Blair has created ``very efficient structures'' for helping the unemployed find work, the newspaper noted.

And in May, Blair made the cover of the news magazine L'Express with the title ``Tony Blair - Why he succeeds.'' ``He has made his country richer,'' the report said, while ``France, Italy and Germany are stagnating, victims of doubt and a crisis of confidence in their leaders .

''

Such judgments raise hackles on the left.

``You speak about Great Britain without specifying that to earn a living, people there have to have two or three jobs,'' Socialist lawmaker Henri Emmanuelli said in a radio interview. He added sarcastically: ``Even better than that would be slavery with a bowl of rice as recompense. That way there would be no unemployment at all.''

Associated Press Writer Laurent Pirot contributed to this report from Paris.


06/13/05 01:53

© Copyright The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained In this news report may not be published, broadcast or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.

homeOwner

wiseones2cents wrote:

Now in the case where the Majority of the Population is Aethiest? That population will not stand for long, as we have witnessed in history and will soon witness again.

See now I just think you are talking nonsense. Give me one example from history of an aethiest society that has not stood for long.

America will fall because of its lawlessness and loose conduct. And the countires tied to her economic system will also feel it.

Oh no! The lawlessness and the loose conduct! We're all doomed. Who will save us.......what, God I hear you say? Ah Yes, I see now (backing away slowly) :rolleyes:


Anyway, China will be the next big super power and being a communist country I am pretty sure they are aethiest, as a whole.

The Corinthian

wiseones2cents wrote:

Ah you are finally starting to admit there exists corruption.Thats a start.

Where did I deny this?

Now where does a drug dealer,thief,ect have a better chance of Investing in the Economy and working his way up in ranks?In A capitalist system or Socialist system.

A capitalist system of course. But that’s also because anyone has a better chance of Investing in the Economy and working his way up in ranks.

Think about it....In America the criminals now have more power than the government. Evidence? have you not been hearing about the scandals?

All systems of government have scandals, what’s your point? That Capitalism has more or that it has a freer press to report them?

When you look at the debt most countries are in that are tied to Capitalism. You will see my point is well made.

The debt most countries are in that are tied to commerce and spending more than they have or bring in, that’s what debt is. Of course, this may be due to capitalism, but you certainly don’t demonstrate it simply by pointing out they have debt.

Maybe so, but we are talking about the religious,not the secular.

We’re talking about a statement that you made that was patently false.

Secularism is growing in fully developed countries but flourishing in the poor nations.

I assume this is a grammatical error on your part as you’re suggesting that it grows / flourishes in both.

Developed countries have taken their blessings for granted and will pay the price for it.People ARE less naive.Read your history books and you will see that I am right. people were VERY SUPERSTITIOUS back then and easily manipulated.

It is probably true to say that people are more cynical, but less naive, I wouldn’t be convinced of. Of course this is just another one of your opinions as no history book says that people have become less naive.

Unlike the naive, I base my convictions on facts. Open your eyes and look around you. The facts are right in front of you.

Observations and opinions do not denote facts. And to date that’s all you’ve supplied here.

Is it Arguable? If there was no laws, I am sure many would be beaten to death.

Certainly, but that still does not mean that it is an intrinsic human trait. The very fact that we react against it would say otherwise.

And Greed, is pro-social?Who do you know that likes a greedy person?

You’re confusing social with popular.

Without Greed we have no commerce or community? Without Greed we have Equality and balance. You've been reading one to many brainwashing Capitalist books. Your notion is complete nonsense and does not have a leg to stand on.

Greed and self-interest drive commerce. They always have - and given your apparent interest in history you should know this. There’s nothing nonsensical about it and far better discussed and documented that your fancy.

Like I said before, It is one thing to be ambitious, but greedy is another thing.
Greedy take food away from the poor and to me that is just as bad as Murder.

Where did you say that?

You cant have excessive murder?Can you tell me the meaning of Genocide?

And there was I thinking that murder is always excessive. You must think it all right then, given the right circumstances.

Canada WAS a socialist country in the sense that all Its Utilities and resources were Government owned.

You mean in the sense that it wasn’t a socialist country. I suggest you look up what Socialism means.

It is Faith. Arrogance is Blind Faith but I see all too well. And time has proven me right.

Not yet it hasn’t, and you’re running out of time.

I do not wish disaster on anyone. You reap what you sow, It is common sense. History has always repeated itself. You will see the Collapse of the American economy soon enough.

That may occur, but how that will turn me to religion I don’t quite understand.

Did you not check out my link on American debt? 8 Trillion+ and counting?

And what is that? Proof that capitalism is a failure or proof that America is currently in a great deal of debt? It certainly is the latter, but not the former by any empirical means.

The Israelites were very Educated people in that time. Where ever they went they influenced Cultures. The Jews Were exiled from Babylon and were spread out. This is Correct. Some to Persia, Some to Medea, Some to Greece, ect.. When the Greeks took over they had with them many Greek Jews.Check your New Testament and you will see. Therefore the Israelites influenced many cultures.

You’ll find everyone influenced each other in the ancient World. The Babylonians and Egyptians, in particular, greatly influenced the Jews too you’ll find (Noah’s ark was probably nothing more than a retelling of the Babylonian tail of Gilgamesh). But ultimately it was Hellenistic culture that is the basis of European culture, not Jewish. Check out the alphabet we’re using if you don’t believe me.

All the Greek gods and Roman gods origionated from legends past by word of mouth. Then they built upon it. All religion Origionated from the same source.
If you read the German Book of Armageddon(Ragnarok) Or the Zoroster's book. Any Religious book for that mater. They all speak of a war between good and evil and a Golden age that will come about.

Actually they don’t. Seriously where did you read this? The Greeks and Romans did not see good and evil in the same fashion as the Jews. They also did not believe in any Armageddon in the future.

As far as the Etruscians? Just read the first Paragraph. http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/OM/BA/Har.html

What’s your point? It doesn’t suggest they were any tribe of Israel. Actually, read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscans#Language

And Finally. How much of the Bible do American Christians follow?Although was not American Law inspired by the bible? They were all coruptted as is America.

What a bizarre argument, you claim Roman law was based upon the Bible, when I point out that they’re totally different you then imply that it’s because the Romans simply ignored the Bible. Unfortunately what’s far more likely is the simple truth - Roman law was not based upon the Bible.

No you are ignoring facts.

Pointless tit-for-tat at this stage.

Everyone that has followed this war closely will tell you that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. But thanks to America, Al-Qaeda has an endless supply of recruits. The Crusades were justified by an Aggressor. An Egyptian Caliph, that decided to attack all Jewish and Christian structures. The Christians retaliated by slaughtering everyone.

How is that related to the point I made?

Read the Bible and you will have more than my word but Also GOD's word.

So you say. Am I to believe you that it is God’s word?

Actually I did respond.

No, you never told me if you’ve ever suffered from mental illness.

You can adapt? Now your really talking nonsense. How can you compete with countries(labourers) that work for 10 cents an hour. Some for under $20 a month?And what happens to all the people that lose their jobs as a result?

I gave you an example of an industry adapting.

Actually It has everything to do with time. This is not the first time I have debated the world wars and am familiar with especially the second.

If you’re so familiar with World War II, how did you make so many mistakes on it?

Back peddling I see. Your still touting it as the best system when it clearly is not.

I’m not back peddling, I’m stating the same position I’ve always stated.

Did you not read that Link I presented about the American economy?They are a sinking ship.

The one that says they’re in debt? Sure, did you read the one that I proffered that showed that New Zealand’s balance of trade has improved since they opened up?

Is stating facts a sign of desperation?:rolleyes:

But they’re not facts - they’re nothing more than your opinion. You claiming that they’re facts doesn’t make them any closer to being so.

Sounds like you are evading the whole issue. Let me post it AGAIN. I'd like to hear an intelligent response this time and not evasive maneuvering

As far as Canada? Our Economy is SOLID because we have an Abundance of resources. Though Are resources are being sold off(Privatized) and sold back to us at triple the cost. So tell me how the fact that Inflation is stable, Have to do with anything? 90% Of our pay goes to taxes and energy/fuel. We have become America. Where we need to accumulate debt to survive. Try saving today in Canada.Those days are gone.You now need husband and wife working together now just to break even and save a few pennies.

And I already pointed out, supplying you with the figures to back it up that income has consistently increased in Canada. Canadians are better off, not worse. Prices have increased, but so have salaries.

Now if you’re being left behind, I’m sorry, but that’s not Canada, that’s just you.

Then do your homework.

I’ve done my homework, I object to doing yours.

Is that what you call all the coruption,poverty and crime sprees around me? People having fun?

No, that’s what I call people getting on with their lives and thriving around you.

wiseones2cents

homeOwner wrote:

See now I just think you are talking nonsense. Give me one example from history of an aethiest society that has not stood for long.

Nonsense?Go back and see what happened to nations that disobeyed GOD's laws. Name one? There were thousands. They only god they believed in was gold and silver(Money).

Oh no! The lawlessness and the loose conduct! We're all doomed. Who will save us.......what, God I hear you say? Ah Yes, I see now (backing away slowly) :rolleyes:

No. I dont think even GOD will save those who practice lawlessness. They will not be left unpunished.

Anyway, China will be the next big super power and being a communist country I am pretty sure they are aethiest, as a whole.

If there is an Economic collapse in America,there will be no such thing as a super power. Those days will be gone.

As far as China being Aethiest?Nonsense. They Have the Buddhists who believe in a Supreme being(GOD). They have many Christians, And Falun gong,Which takes from Taoism, Christianity and especially Buddhism.

They have had unrest there for quite some time and if China does not open to religious freedom soon. The pot will boil over.
Isolation was bad(since they had no natural resources), Though Capitalism has proved to be even worse for the poor.Rich get richer and poor get poorer.And there are alot more poor in China then rich. China has been trying desperately to close that gap, but relieving pressure off religious groups in China would help greatly. And no money collected by religions from the more well off people should leave China, but should go to feed the poor in China.

The Corinthian

wiseones2cents wrote:

There were thousands.

I'm glad you didn't say millions. That would be exaggerating.

If there is an Economic collapse in America,there will be no such thing as a super power. Those days will be gone.

And no doubt the meek shall inherit the Earth, etc...

They Have the Buddhists who believe in a Supreme being(GOD).

Err... actually, they don't:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Buddhism

wiseones2cents

The Corinthian wrote:

Where did I deny this?

A capitalist system of course. But that’s also because anyone has a better chance of Investing in the Economy and working his way up in ranks.

Ah now you are starting to understand.

All systems of government have scandals, what’s your point? That Capitalism has more or that it has a freer press to report them?

My point was clearified above. Capitalism breeds more of it because Capitalism opens up more doors to corruption.

If you believe America has a free press you are mistaken. They only expose material that suit their agendas. There has been a Increasingly growing monopoly on world news for quite some time now.

The debt most countries are in that are tied to commerce and spending more than they have or bring in, that’s what debt is. Of course, this may be due to capitalism, but you certainly don’t demonstrate it simply by pointing out they have debt.

DId you know that more than 90% of Canada's debt is due to Interest?And why would any government care? The bill is left to the Consumer.And the sons of the consumer and the sons of thier sons.......
The Americans are reduced to BARELY paying Interest.

We’re talking about a statement that you made that was patently false.

Evading tactic detected. It is not false because you say "IT IS FALSE".

I assume this is a grammatical error on your part as you’re suggesting that it grows / flourishes in both.

Yes you are correct. What I meant to say was Secularism is growing in Developped countries but in the poor countries religion is Flourishing.

I noticed you did not have a comment for this statement:Developed countries have taken their blessings for granted and will pay the price for it.

It is probably true to say that people are more cynical, but less naive, I wouldn’t be convinced of. Of course this is just another one of your opinions as no history book says that people have become less naive.

An opinion that you at least NOW 1/2 Acknowledged finally.

Observations and opinions do not denote facts. And to date that’s all you’ve supplied here.

And do not facts derive from educated observations and opinions? I have been studying my pbservations from quite some time now.

Certainly, but that still does not mean that it is an intrinsic human trait. The very fact that we react against it would say otherwise.

Once again you agree We act against murder because of fear of Discipline.
Its the way you were raised. Its like comparing a wild cat with a domesticated cat. Why is the Domesticated cat fairly tame? Upbringing and discipline.

You’re confusing social with popular.

Is not Society molded to what is popular?

Greed and self-interest drive commerce. They always have - and given your apparent interest in history you should know this. There’s nothing nonsensical about it and far better discussed and documented that your fancy.

Now you can say Greed which induces Competition drives commerce.
Though Competition also causing Confrontation, Conflict and wars.

Why has the world not Advanced as fast as it should have?COMPETITION. Why aren't Discoveries and Info shared? Competition. Why cant New Zeland Make their own cars? Competition. When you understand Competition a cause of many problems you will start to see it my way.

Communist Russia excelled at many things faster than Capitalist America. Although America had larger access to CREDIT and an Economy left untouched by both world wars.

Where did you say that?

I guess we both have a different definition of Greed. Mine is to take away from the less fortunate.(Money, Food, Clothing,Ect)

And there was I thinking that murder is always excessive. You must think it all right then, given the right circumstances.

Your the one that stated:Quote:"Of course arguing against excessive greed is fair enough. You can’t have excessive murder, after all."

I said there is murder and excessive murder. Genocide. Try to stay on the ball.

You mean in the sense that it wasn’t a socialist country. I suggest you look up what Socialism means.

I explained How we were a Socialist country for the most part.

Not yet it hasn’t, and you’re running out of time.

I have been proven correct in the past and will be proven correct in the future.

That may occur, but how that will turn me to religion I don’t quite understand.

Simply because it was foretold in the Bible.

And what is that? Proof that capitalism is a failure or proof that America is currently in a great deal of debt? It certainly is the latter, but not the former by any empirical means.

America is Hurting and everyone in the know, knows it. America keeps on Assuring the public that the Economy is fine. That is a red Flag right there. Who are they trying to convince, us or themselves? They have not given out the money they pledged for disasters around the world. They tell the Iraqi's they'll take care of them when they aren't even helping their own kind. Did you see the Katrina survivors on TV complaining 4 months later that they have not recieved one speck of aid? I hear the Floridians are still waiting for aid from last years disasters. America is Hurting. It is obvious.

You’ll find everyone influenced each other in the ancient World. The Babylonians and Egyptians, in particular, greatly influenced the Jews too you’ll find (Noah’s ark was probably nothing more than a retelling of the Babylonian tail of Gilgamesh). But ultimately it was Hellenistic culture that is the basis of European culture, not Jewish. Check out the alphabet we’re using if you don’t believe me.

We are not speaking of Alphabets. We are discussing Religious influence and Laws. I am saying it all origionated from the same source. More than Likely from Moses. The Israelites conquered many people and ruled many Lands and their laws were well known.

Actually they don’t. Seriously where did you read this? The Greeks and Romans did not see good and evil in the same fashion as the Jews. They also did not believe in any Armageddon in the future.

Though they may have had the right laws and used practically the same Callander.The roots of thier laws were religious.Ceasar brought Justice to the people. This is why he was liked so much. Later they became corruptted.

What’s your point? It doesn’t suggest they were any tribe of Israel. Actually, read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscans#Language

My point was well made. They were called people of the book as it is stated in my link. I have also seen old Text reffering to them of Belonging to 12 tribes.

What a bizarre argument, you claim Roman law was based upon the Bible, when I point out that they’re totally different you then imply that it’s because the Romans simply ignored the Bible. Unfortunately what’s far more likely is the simple truth - Roman law was not based upon the Bible.

Roman Law was based Upon Greek Law:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_tables
Now if you follow the Greek Law it will lead you to Egyptian Law:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_law
Keep going......

How is that related to the point I made?

The point is that You can Justify the Attack on Afhanistan IF you can Prove they were responsible for 9/11 and found out why. Though bush refused to debate Osama. Thats a sign of guilt right there on bush's part. Americans have something to hide. Although NO EXCUSE Justifies their attrack on Iraq.

So you say. Am I to believe you that it is God’s word?

Read the Bible and History books together and you will see.

I gave you an example of an industry adapting.

An I gave you an example how you cannot compete with outsourcing. their is no adapting.You just did not want to comment on it.

I’m not back peddling, I’m stating the same position I’ve always stated.

Sure you are(Note Sarcasm).:)

The one that says they’re in debt? Sure, did you read the one that I proffered that showed that New Zealand’s balance of trade has improved since they opened up?

It said alot more than the fact they are in GIGANTIC debt. It pretty much spells out its demise. Did you just read the title?:rolleyes:

Yes New Zeland's GDP has Improved but it also has been a rollercoaster of a ride. Unstable. Unemployement is fluctuating.And things will get worse.

P.S. Page 2 coming up. wouldn't fit

wiseones2cents

And I already pointed out, supplying you with the figures to back it up that income has consistently increased in Canada. Canadians are better off, not worse. Prices have increased, but so have salaries.

1)Figures. I did not see Figures and even so, Figures can be manipulated to manipulate.

2)Oh Now I see. Your telling me about the Country I live in.:D Salaries have DROPPED. When Free trade was imposed mulrooney brought in a whole bunch of cheap immigrant labour. 90+% of ONTARIO(Maybe even Canada)took a pay cut, because there were many people willing to work for less. Not to mention the GST Imposed by mulrooney.Even though Our Minimum wage is $8 Now. You made the same back then making $7 as you do today making $9 after taxes. Even though the pay has gone down and many of the good paying jobs are moving to cheaper countries for cheap labour. The cost of Living is steadily Increasing. So tell me how we are better off? Maybe the immigrants that were used to making peanuts and earning a meek living, are enjoying our country.

Now if you’re being left behind, I’m sorry, but that’s not Canada, that’s just you.

As I stated before, I am not left Behind. And I have the proper Contacts and Connections to rise quickly If I decided to choose so. But I would have to sink to thier level to compete. Thats Capitalism.

No, that’s what I call .

Let me get this straight. You call people that are corupting, poor and crime sprees, people getting on with their lives and thriving around you.

I dont think I can take you seriously any longer. I see why you do not see a problem with Capitalism and greed. You have no morals. Therefore your opinion is worthless.

wiseones2cents

The Corinthian wrote:

I'm glad you didn't say millions. That would be exaggerating.

How many Generations do you believe have existed in the last 7,000 Years?
Every 1,000 years is about 200 Generations now Multiply that by 7 = 1,400.
Now how many different Kingdoms have existed?

And no doubt the meek shall inherit the Earth, etc...

No doubt.

Err... actually, they don't:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Buddhism

Actually they did.

Buddhism, as it has evolved and as it exists today, does not recognize the existence of a Supreme Being. But some state that this was not the case in the beginning, and that Buddha did acknowledge a Supreme Being. Ashoka, the most famous and most devoted follower of the Buddha and his teachings, carved many inscriptions on rocks called stupas, and some state that these rocks clearly indicate a belief in a Supreme Being. One such rock is located on the bank of a river named Katak, and reads as follows:“Much longing after the things (of this life) is a disobedience, I again declare; not less so is the laborious ambition of dominion by a prince who would be a proprietor of heaven. Confess and believe in God (Is’ana) who is the worthy object of obedience. For equal to this (belief), I declare unto you, ye shall not find such a means of propitiating heaven. Oh strive ye to obtain this inestimable treasure.”

You will see though that after the collapse, Christianity will spread like wild fire on earth. That Includes China.

The Corinthian

wiseones2cents wrote:

Ah now you are starting to understand.

Other than ignoring my first question to you in my response, you seem to be under the misapprehension that I’m in some way Capitalism’s defender in this discussion; I’m not and never have been. So if you’d like to point to where I’ve said that Capitalism is perfect or the way forward, please do, otherwise find another axe to grind.

My point was clearified above. Capitalism breeds more of it because Capitalism opens up more doors to corruption.

Please don’t pretend to be stupid. I pointed out that the corrupt would certainly be more likely to have a better chance of Investing in the Economy and working his way up in ranks through Capitalism, only because anyone would certainly be more likely to have a better chance of Investing in the Economy and working his way up in ranks through Capitalism. It does not mean that only the corrupt can do so.

If you believe America has a free press you are mistaken. They only expose material that suit their agendas. There has been a Increasingly growing monopoly on world news for quite some time now.

Evidence please. Less waffle.

DId you know that more than 90% of Canada's debt is due to Interest?And why would any government care? The bill is left to the Consumer.And the sons of the consumer and the sons of thier sons.......
The Americans are reduced to BARELY paying Interest.

Yet the USSR managed to build up huge debts - resulting in its eventual economic meltdown, without using any Capitalism. Go figure.

Evading tactic detected. It is not false because you say "IT IS FALSE".

What? You’ve spent this entire thread pointing out how things were true because you said so and you have the balls to accuse someone of doing likewise? You are the one who made a sweeping statement about people becoming less naive without a shred of evidence - I’m only pointing that out.

I noticed you did not have a comment for this statement:Developed countries have taken their blessings for granted and will pay the price for it.

I didn’t comment on it because I was not going to comment on something that didn’t make grammatical sense. Certainly secularism flourishes in educated populations, while the ignorant will tend towards the religious. But how this is tied into your earlier claims that people becoming less naïve is beyond me.

An opinion that you at least NOW 1/2 Acknowledged finally.

And what do you gain from it? There’s nothing in it that supports any of your other arguments. I could concede that the sky is blue too, but would you see that as a victory also?

And do not facts derive from educated observations and opinions? I have been studying my pbservations from quite some time now.

Were your observations and opinions educated, I might agree. They are not. You lack understanding of logic or debate. You seem to be incapable of understanding basic concepts such as proof or the difference between theory and law.

So no, I do not believe you are neither qualified nor educated enough to make such observations. I do not mean that to be an insult, but you asked.

Once again you agree We act against murder because of fear of Discipline.

I did not say that. Where am I supposed to have said that?

Its the way you were raised. Its like comparing a wild cat with a domesticated cat. Why is the Domesticated cat fairly tame? Upbringing and discipline.

I’m glad you’ve finally found the solution to the nurture versus nature debate. You might contact the psychological community with your findings, as they haven’t managed it yet.

Is not Society molded to what is popular?

I was discussing social and anti-social - these are sociological terms. As I said don’t confuse them in such a simplistic manner.

Now you can say Greed which induces Competition drives commerce.
Though Competition also causing Confrontation, Conflict and wars.

Indeed it can. Just like religion.

Why has the world not Advanced as fast as it should have?COMPETITION.

As fast as it should have? How fast is that? Can you support your claim? Your opinion will not suffice as proof, BTW.

Communist Russia excelled at many things faster than Capitalist America.

One of the advantages of a totalitarian regime.

Your the one that stated:Quote:"Of course arguing against excessive greed is fair enough. You can’t have excessive murder, after all."

I said there is murder and excessive murder. Genocide. Try to stay on the ball.

Murder, whether on one person or a million is wrong. This cannot be equated with the difference with ambition (which you yourself agreed was good) and excessive greed. It’s not a difficult distinction to make.

I explained How we were a Socialist country for the most part.

And I explained how you don’t actually know what Socialist means.

I have been proven correct in the past and will be proven correct in the future.

Sure, we believe you :rolleyes:

Simply because it was foretold in the Bible.

Right... :rolleyes:

America is Hurting and everyone in the know, knows it.

You’re not in the know. Don’t kid yourself.

America my fall or not, but you still have not presented proof either way.

We are not speaking of Alphabets. We are discussing Religious influence and Laws. I am saying it all origionated from the same source. More than Likely from Moses. The Israelites conquered many people and ruled many Lands and their laws were well known.

The Israelites conquered a few neighbouring scraps of land around them. That’s about it. Feel free to cite a historical source that says they got any further. Problem is evidence says the opposite to you: Our language, as with almost all European languages, is Indo-European, not Semitic. Our alphabet is based upon the Latin and not Amharic one. So please speare yourself the pain of further delusion.

Though they may have had the right laws and used practically the same Callander.The roots of thier laws were religious.Ceasar brought Justice to the people. This is why he was liked so much. Later they became corruptted.

Read this from Tacitus? :rolleyes:

If not where do you get all this rubbish? Source, please? You can hardly claim that you observed what Caesar was up to at the time.

My point was well made. They were called people of the book as it is stated in my link. I have also seen old Text reffering to them of Belonging to 12 tribes.

Your point was bogus. Your link made no such claim and merely said that they’re sometimes called people of the book, not what that may mean or if it is true. If you’ve seen an old book, well good for you, but I’ll not take your word for it.

Roman Law was based Upon Greek Law:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_tables
Now if you follow the Greek Law it will lead you to Egyptian Law:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_law
Keep going......

No, you keep going. You’ll find a dead end.

The point is that You can Justify the Attack on Afhanistan IF you can Prove they were responsible for 9/11 and found out why.

No the point I made was you could justify anything if you want or are deluded enough. Even you.

Read the Bible and History books together and you will see.

I have and I see what you obviously cannot.

An I gave you an example how you cannot compete with outsourcing. their is no adapting.You just did not want to comment on it.

Apply my example to yours.

Sure you are(Note Sarcasm).:)

Then point out where I’ve changed my stance. Quote it, or stop bluffing.

Yes New Zeland's GDP has Improved

Finally admits he was wrong.

1)Figures. I did not see Figures and even so, Figures can be manipulated to manipulate.

While your blessed opinion is untainted no doubt?

2)Oh Now I see. Your telling me about the Country I live in.:D Salaries have DROPPED.

All I need point out (again) is that salaries have risen to debunk your argument. I say again as I already linked to the data. You obviously didn’t read it.

Let me get this straight. You call people that are corupting, poor and crime sprees, people getting on with their lives and thriving around you.

No, that’s what I call people getting on with their lives and thriving around you. If there are criminals and the corrupt around you, fair enough, but they’re not all so. People can actually do well and become wealthy by simply working hard. I know that’s hard for you to grasp, but there you go.

I dont think I can take you seriously any longer. I see why you do not see a problem with Capitalism and greed. You have no morals. Therefore your opinion is worthless.

I see, how about you tell us if you have a history of mental illness then? I can’t help but think you’ve been avoiding the question.

How many Generations do you believe have existed in the last 7,000 Years?
Every 1,000 years is about 200 Generations now Multiply that by 7 = 1,400.
Now how many different Kingdoms have existed?

And they were all Atheistic Societies that didn’t stand long?

Buddhism, as it has evolved and as it exists today, does not recognize the existence of a Supreme Being. But some state that this was not the case in the beginning, and that Buddha did acknowledge a Supreme Being. Ashoka, the most famous and most devoted follower ... this inestimable treasure.”

Have you any credible source for this as from what I can see this is all invention.

homeOwner

wiseones2cents wrote:

Nonsense?Go back and see what happened to nations that disobeyed GOD's laws. Name one? There were thousands. They only god they believed in was gold and silver(Money).

Ok let me explain. You were talking about aethiest societies that had fallen. Now you are talking about nations that disobeyed God's laws. Apples and oranges. Do you know what an aethiest is? You are displaying a distinct lack of understanding of your own arguments. A "nation that disobeyes God's laws" can be christian, jewish, muslim, pagan etc.... If it were aethiest, it would not recognise that there is a god to impose laws. So it would have laws not based on God's alleged word. Ok so, back to original question - I dont need thousands of examples - just name one society were the majority were aethiest that has fallen during any period in history.

As far as China being Aethiest?Nonsense. They Have the Buddhists who believe in a Supreme being(GOD). They have many Christians, And Falun gong,Which takes from Taoism, Christianity and especially Buddhism.

Ok, yes there are buddhists but even a prelimiary glance at websites will tell you that only around 8% of the country - thats around 100million people out of a population of 1.2billion people claim to have religion in China. So I would classify that country as being aethiest - on the whole, which is what I said in my post. I was not saying that no one in china believes in God.

They have had unrest there for quite some time and if China does not open to religious freedom soon. The pot will boil over.
Isolation was bad(since they had no natural resources), .......blah de blah

Is this from the Dummy's Guide to China?

MeatProduct

wiseones2cents wrote:

No. I dont think even GOD will save those who practice lawlessness. They will not be left unpunished.

This is the god that has America in the state it is. I'm not a Christian but it was my understanding that the Christian god was a god of love, not of vengeance and punishment.

Could you please clarify this as I find it might bring some relevance to the title of this thread.

Thank you,

Nick

homeOwner

MeatProduct wrote:

This is the god that has America in the state it is. I'm not a Christian but it was my understanding that the Christian god was a god of love, not of vengeance and punishment.

Religious fanatics of all sorts (be it jewish, muslim, christian) generally strongly believe that their god's wrath will be wrecked on those who do not live strictly by his laws and believe what they believe. Do not confuse this idea with the actual teachings of most religions which is that god is compassionate and forgiving.

However christianity does say that if you will burn in the fires of hell for your sins but it fundamentally preachs that forgiveness is possible if you repent and mean it.

MeatProduct

homeOwner wrote:

Religious fanatics of all sorts (be it jewish, muslim, christian) generally strongly believe that their god's wrath will be wrecked on those who do not live strictly by his laws and believe what they believe. Do not confuse this idea with the actual teachings of most religions which is that god is compassionate and forgiving.

Yes indeed, then it is no longer god telling anyone to suffer or be punished. Which then points to the following areas; mental instability/illness, personal insecurities, projection of beliefs, power, etc... All traits that really shouldn't be exhibited in any kind of leader of people.

I would like to add that from what little I know of the bible and my interpretation of it I cannot concieve of Christ ever wishing punishment on anyone. Since I feel this is the case it seems that anyone claiming otherwise is not correctly representing the teachings of Christ. The obvious reason for doing this is to use it as a means of power and control.

Nick

The Corinthian

homeOwner wrote:

Religious fanatics of all sorts (be it jewish, muslim, christian) generally strongly believe that their god's wrath will be wrecked on those who do not live strictly by his laws and believe what they believe. Do not confuse this idea with the actual teachings of most religions which is that god is compassionate and forgiving.

In Christianity, much of the confusion comes from a perceived contradiction between the Old and New Testaments that preach “an eye for an eye” and “turn the other cheek” accordingly.

I would concur that religious fanaticism, on the other hand, would tend to favour the vengeful God. Typically meting out retribution on heretics, apostates and unbelievers - i.e. anyone who disagrees with the religious fanatic. Typically this is tied into a fantasy of the fanatic being blessed or in some other way superior to the unholy around them. In the most extreme cases, the fanatic will see themselves as the instrument of that retribution, as we see in the case of Islamic extremism - which further feeds into the fanatic’s superiority fantasies.

However christianity does say that if you will burn in the fires of hell for your sins but it fundamentally preachs that forgiveness is possible if you repent and mean it.

Many Christian denominations have downplayed Hell in recent years. I believe some may have even effectively abolished it, but I could well be wrong on the latter point.