Is it "cool" to not believe?

funk-you

well folks, is it now cool not to beleive or be against organised religion? when i talk to some people i get the impression off them that they have a belief in (for example) catholicism but when you get into an indepth discussion with them about faith they'll start throwning out comments that make organised religion sound like the plague(by that i mean will go out of their way to disassociate themselves from it). i have no particular faith myself but i dont exactly go out of my way to point it out to people. if it comes up, fine but i wouldn't start a rant about it for no reason. what are your opinions?
-Funk

Rev Hellfire

I suspect that with the beilivers you refer to there are two types, firstly those who actually believe in a higher power, but not in its representatives here on earth. But secondly there are those who's logic tell's them that such religions are not true, but wish to believe none the less. The second I would say is quite common, the hope for a better out come is quite an attractive idea.

As for how cool it is to knock organised religion's I would say there is some truth to it when looking at the established church (this I say is a combination of peer pressure, gross mishandling of situations by the church and a particular media spin atm). It is worth nothing though that you couldnt say that organised religions are on the decline, the church as it was in ireland yes, but other faiths are gainning followers. People I do think on the whole wish/require something to believe in.

Dades

Within certain communities it is "cool" to believe in Jesus, or to be even more devout a Muslim than the next guy. I don't see anything wrong with being "proud" of a belief (with the obvious exception of extremists).

It only really damaging if you consider yourself above others because of it.

Dave!

Well I used to bring it up with people quite often enough, cos it's not something people generally talk about, and I'm curious about if people actually believe in this kind of stuff or not, and I like talking about it. I kinda push my own (lack of) beliefs on people, but it's only because I believe that they're the right beliefs.

It has become a bit of a trend recently, though, you're right. Atheism is on the up and up, lol.

Cronus333

In my school the vast majority are athiests but are divided into those who are just lazy and those with logical reasoning. Those with religious beliefs have such strange views on other matters that you just want to distance your opinion away from theirs.....

Kernel

Yeah, rebelling against any authority is often seen as cool for younger people, that's why Jesus was so cool too.

Laguna

No, I don't think it's 'cool' to be an atheist.

I'm an atheist simply because religion is a load of old **** which has no backing to its claims.

Kernel

Laguna wrote:

No, I don't think it's 'cool' to be an atheist.

I'm an atheist simply because religion is a load of old **** which has no backing to its claims.

Theologians might have something to say about that claim Laguna!

HybridTech

I wouldn't say it's cool, no. I'm not a believer, but I'd never knock someone's beliefs. Live and let live! I'd expect the same tolerance for my lack of belief.

Laguna

Let them on!

It's a cliché by now, but I for one cannot understand why anyone believes in a higher power/deity when there's so much suffering in the world. War/famine/disease etc., if God existed and loved us all, why does it happen?.

A member of my family has a life threatening disease and informed me that when he was last in hospital, people on his ward with the same condition as him would still jump at the chance to take communion when it came around with a "Praise be to God" offered when taking it, his thoughts were, if God existed and *loved* you, why were you in hospital in the first place with a terrible disease?.

Out of all the religions though, I have to say Christianity is the most ridiculous, non accepting and warmongering of them all.

Fundamentalist Christians go around terrorising the world, but they call it democracy and liberation, fundamentalist Islamics commit terrorist attacks in response to the acts of fundamentalist Christian Governments, yet they are called radicals... extremists.. terrorists.

Kernel

Laguna wrote:

Let them on!

It's a cliché by now, but I for one cannot understand why anyone believes in a higher power/deity when there's so much suffering in the world. War/famine/disease etc., if God existed and loved us all, why does it happen?.

Free will of man? Most of the suffering and death is caused by us.

Laguna wrote:

Out of all the religions though, I have to say Christianity is the most ridiculous, non accepting and warmongering of them all.

Fundamentalist Christians go around terrorising the world, but they call it democracy and liberation, fundamentalist Islamics commit terrorist attacks in response to the acts of fundamentalist Christian Governments, yet they are called radicals... extremists.. terrorists.

Well, there aren't really any Christian suicide bombers in fairness. Any true Christian who follows the teachings of Christ will not be militant or warmongering at all, since the message is one of peace, love and understanding. Once again, it's men who warp the teachings for their own political reasons - usually to hold onto power and wealth.

robindch

> Well, there aren't really any Christian suicide bombers
> in fairness.

Not the most careful-chosen idea! The christians and jews who form the majority of the bomber crews operating in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, Lebanon don't blow themselves up, but rather return to base, fill up and return to drop a few more bombs, and generally on muslims -- is it any wonder that a tiny minority of muslim hotheads turn into suicide bombers? At least they can only murder once. :mad:

> Any true Christian who follows the teachings of Christ
> will not be militant or warmongering at all, since the
> message is one of peace, love and understanding.

Depends on which 'message' you want to find. The Malleus Maleficarum was carefully argued from biblical texts and helped to produce one of the most horrific texts of the late Middle Ages:

http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/
http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/mmtoc.html

It's actually worth reading a bit of this, just to get a flavour of how much an endlesslyrambling text can be rendered to suit ones own lethal fantasies.

> Once again, it's men who warp the teachings for their
> own political reasons - usually to hold onto power and wealth.

You're dead on the button here!

Asiaprod

Maybe we should start a sticky of facts that are indisputable and agreed to by all. It could become a very handy reference tool.

I nominate Kernel`s little gem

.

Any true Christian who follows the teachings of Christ will not be militant or warmongering at all, since the message is one of peace, love and understanding. Once again, it's men who warp the teachings for their own political reasons - usually to hold onto power and wealth.

Laguna

Asiaprod wrote:

Maybe we should start a sticky of facts that are indisputable and agreed to by all. It could become a very handy reference tool.
.

Not in here surely, this is the atheism forum is it not?

Asiaprod

Laguna wrote:

Not in here surely, this is the atheism forum is it not?

Its ok, relax, just my idea of a joke Maybe I should go to bed, its late

Laguna

Whoa son, I'm only kidding myself. I just find the whole ideology of religion so fanciful and transparent (for what it is, a method of control), I get really narky about it.

Dades

Asiaprod wrote:

Maybe we should start a sticky of facts that are indisputable and agreed to by all.

Now that would be the smallest sticky thread ever.

Though I would echo the sentiments in Kernel's comment.

Sangre

DaveMcG wrote:

I kinda push my own (lack of) beliefs on people, but it's only because I believe that they're the right beliefs.

Jesus (pun intended), don't do that. You'll get a head wrecker reputation.
The only thing worse than someone being smug about their beliefs is pushing said beliefs on someone else.

rsynnott

Kernel wrote:

Theologians might have something to say about that claim Laguna!

They tend to have trouble producing hard facts tho, no?

Kernel

rsynnott wrote:

They tend to have trouble producing hard facts tho, no?

That's the nature of the beast unfortunately. Just because something hasn't been proven, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

rsynnott

Indeed. And that's why I'm a devout follower of the Invisible Pink Unicorn.

Kernel

rsynnott wrote:

Indeed. And that's why I'm a devout follower of the Invisible Pink Unicorn.

Really, is he standing here now? What are It's views on abortion?

rsynnott

Kernel wrote:

Really, is he standing here now? What are It's views on abortion?

SHE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_Pink_Unicorn) will no doubt inform you if you ask her. And learn to use the apostrophe; it really, really isn't that difficult.

robindch

> What are It's views on abortion?

Whatever his believers say they are.

Remember to apply your comment from a few days back:

men warp the teachings for their own political reasons

...and look to see if some political hay can be made from a load of public posturing on some irresolvable issue. Like Bush and abortion/gay marriage to pick a couple of topics which will never be sorted out, but where a few well-chosen hooray-words will guarantee plenty of pious votes

Kernel

rsynnott wrote:

SHE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_Pink_Unicorn) will no doubt inform you if you ask her. And learn to use the apostrophe; it really, really isn't that difficult.

I'll learn how to use the apostrophe if you learn not to be rude and annoy people with pedantic rubbish, deal?

Where is the church of your pink female unicorn, The George?

Kernel

robindch wrote:

...and look to see if some political hay can be made from a load of public posturing on some irresolvable issue. Like Bush and abortion/gay marriage to pick a couple of topics which will never be sorted out, but where a few well-chosen hooray-words will guarantee plenty of pious votes

Oooh... can of worms opened here. But in fairness, the Christian/Catholic Church stance on abortion is due to religious doctrine, a belief that all life is sacred, rather than being twisted for a political agenda.

Dades

Kernel wrote:

I'll learn how to use the apostrophe if you learn not to be rude and annoy people with pedantic rubbish, deal?

Touché.

Kernel wrote:

Where is the church of your pink female unicorn, The George?

The IPU loves all his flock. Not just the hetro ones.

But really, does a building add gravitas to a religion? Scientologists have massive real estate and assets, but I doubt you have much time for them.

The point is that the IPU is as proveable, or disprovable as any other deity.

Stephen

Much like the flying spaghetti monster

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_spaghetti_monster

Birdofthread

To attempt an answer to "Funk-You"'s original question (which you have all moved awaaaay from....
I would say there is a certain idea of "coolness" attached to atheism among the young. not all, mind you. while there are some who would present themselves as athiests loudly in order to look a bit more rebellious/anti-society/anti-conformist/cool there are others who will keep it quiet.
i dont see how religious beliefs are ever something to boast about. it ends up as "I'm more holy than you!" "HAh, I'm less holy than you!" -quite pathetic.

And a mention of the whole, People Following Christian Teachings Properly issue, if we followed the bible Properly, we'd all be out stoning gay people to death.which would be incredibly wrong.
who could forget those lovely bible sentences "their blood shall be upon them" ?
thats not exactly a teaching of love and forgiveness is it? noooooo

and before someone tells me "The bible depends on how you interpret it...etc." please dont bother i have heard that argument many times.

Elmo

Is this some kind of "new age atheism" (raising my hands and making the international sign for quoting)

It's totally "cool" to believe in what you want. You will always have beliefs.

i.e. Atheist believe their is no god.

stevejazzx

Kernel wrote:

That's the nature of the beast unfortunately. Just because something hasn't been proven, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

as voltire so excellently puts in his article about fanatism:

let someone spread the the news that there exists a giant seventy feet tall : it will not be long before the learned doctors are discussing what color his hair should be, how big its thumb, the size of its nails,their voices rise and they scheme and they fight :
those who maintain that that the giants little finger is only an inch and a half across will burn at the stake all those who insist that the little has the width of a foot
'But gentlemen does your giant even exist? enquires a passer by. what a fearful thing to doubt exclaim the quarelling doctors.what blasphemy, what monstrous absurdity
and then briefly they hold a truce that they may stone the passer by and when they have assinated him with full ceremony, in the most edifying manner they return to fighting each other in the usual way - about the little fingers and the nails.

ahh i love that....

Kernel

The Atheist wrote:

But really, does a building add gravitas to a religion? Scientologists have massive real estate and assets, but I doubt you have much time for them.

The point is that the IPU is as proveable, or disprovable as any other deity.

I wouldn't say a building adds gravitas as such (to the theology), but it does lend a credibility or at least reflect the influence of a religion/cult. Don't know much about scientology, but from what I have heard it strikes me as a new age cult, more so than a religion.

To say that there is no evidence for God is something I wouldn't agree with. Looking at the perfection of the universe, the golden ratio existing throughout and everything we continue to discover about the physics of matter, influences me into believing that there was intelligent design behind the reality we all share. I would also believe that this is not the only reality (a view shared by Einstein), and I believe that things exist outside our own sandbox. I can look at the synchronicities in people's lives, and see that things have a way of working out. I have seen that prayer has worked, and that prayer has been proven to work under scientific conditions. That since the dawn of mankind we have been hardwired for religion, and for a belief in a Creator.

We can also look at the miracles performed by many prophets, and even the knowledge contained within the Koran, and how these things have led to a level of civilisation which we now enjoy. It all counts as proof to me, but unfortunately for many cynical people, only the appearance of God Himself on Primetime would suffice.

Birdofthread wrote:

And a mention of the whole, People Following Christian Teachings Properly issue, if we followed the bible Properly, we'd all be out stoning gay people to death.which would be incredibly wrong.
who could forget those lovely bible sentences "their blood shall be upon them" ?
thats not exactly a teaching of love and forgiveness is it? noooooo

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, love thy neighbour, judge not lest ye be judged. All those teachings and philosophies from JC would stop people stoning other people or killing them. There is some contradictions in the Old Testament, however, but I'm more of a New Testament man myself.

Stevejazzx, while Voltaire was a brilliant intellect and philosopher, his cynical words on the issue would not bear any weight with me, especially over Jesus and his revolutionary words and miracles.

Dades

Kernel wrote:

To say that there is no evidence for God is something I wouldn't agree with. Looking at the perfection of the universe, the golden ratio existing throughout and everything we continue to discover about the physics of matter, influences me into believing that there was intelligent design behind the reality we all share.

I believe the intelligent design debate makes interesting reading, but exactly how one goes from agreeing a designer was involved to pairing it with your god is beyond me. Especially given the manner in which the creation of the earth is descibed by that god is as far removed as possible from what most believe to have occured.

"Proof" of intelligent design would not be proof of your, or any god put forward. A leap of faith is still required to associate said designer with any particular deity.

Kernel wrote:

It all counts as proof to me, but unfortunately for many cynical people, only the appearance of God Himself on Primetime would suffice.

I'm disappointed at your use of the word "cynical". Sceptical, yes, but for most here the only motive behind any doubts is to be true to oneself.

rsynnott

Kernel wrote:

I have seen that prayer has worked, and that prayer has been proven to work under scientific conditions.

Sorry, what? Do you have documentation?

Kernel

rsynnott wrote:

Sorry, what? Do you have documentation?

Have a read here: http://www.plim.org/PrayerDeb.htm

Many studies under scientific method were carried out on the effects of prayer. Google it, if you want more.

Kernel

The Atheist wrote:

I believe the intelligent design debate makes interesting reading, but exactly how one goes from agreeing a designer was involved to pairing it with your god is beyond me. Especially given the manner in which the creation of the earth is descibed by that god is as far removed as possible from what most believe to have occured.

"Proof" of intelligent design would not be proof of your, or any god put forward. A leap of faith is still required to associate said designer with any particular deity.

Proof of intelligent design is proof of a creator, that is what my God is. Having accepted the intelligent design of the universe, it then gives me less reason to doubt in a creator, and thus makes it easier for me to accept the word of many prophets, who seemed to make sense to me. Religion is often a personal thing for many people, and they will choose to believe whatever one makes more sense to them. The key thing for me is to believe in a creator, and thus a force and reason behind the universe and our existence. The fact that I believe in the God described by Christ is just a personal choice from reading the Bible and coming to accept the wisdom contained within. Similarly, I would guess many muslims arrive at the same conclusion through reading the Koran.

The Atheist wrote:

I'm disappointed at your use of the word "cynical". Sceptical, yes, but for most here the only motive behind any doubts is to be true to oneself.

I wasn't inferring that you were cynical in any way, you may well be sceptical, you seem at least to be open minded by your interest in intelligent design of the universe, but there are many many more atheists who are downright cynical. You can even spot them in this very forum, they just seem to have a chip on their shoulder about religion in general, and look at religion or spirituality in a very cynical (even aggresive way)way, rather than simply being skeptical (which is fine by me, I am a skeptical person also).

The people who are ardent campaigners and attackers of a 'God' theory, or of religion, are just as annoying as the pushy Jesus freaks who try to convert everyone to their way of thinking!

rsynnott

Kernel wrote:

Have a read here: http://www.plim.org/PrayerDeb.htm

Many studies under scientific method were carried out on the effects of prayer. Google it, if you want more.

A bit of looking round will show that those experiments were non-reproducable (and most of them look highly dubious from the onset). Non-reproducable experiments are of limited use.

rsynnott

I'm quite happy for people to believe in whatever they want, just as long as they don't try to force it on me, or impose it on public policy.

Kernel

rsynnott wrote:

I'm quite happy for people to believe in whatever they want, just as long as they don't try to force it on me, or impose it on public policy.

Likewise, but unfortunately, ethics and religion (from which many of our ethics, including your ethics, are derived) often crosses into public policy, and perhaps there can be never an accomodation to both belief and non-belief, most we can hope for is a compromise.

UU

Invisible Pink Unicorn and Flying Spagetti Monster. Now they're much more interesting Gods! (lol)

Dades

Kernel wrote:

there are many many more atheists who are downright cynical. You can even spot them in this very forum, they just seem to have a chip on their shoulder about religion in general, and look at religion or spirituality in a very cynical (even aggresive way)way, rather than simply being skeptical

I won't disagree with that - there are all sorts here. There are obvious chips on shoulders and there are those who simply drop by to shout a cynical one-liner before departing for After Hours. Still, religion, of lack of, is a very passionate area for people and at least they're being cynical (and sceptical) here rather than less appropriate forums.

Kernel wrote:

The people who are ardent campaigners and attackers of a 'God' theory, or of religion, are just as annoying as the pushy Jesus freaks who try to convert everyone to their way of thinking!

Absolutely. Pushy religious and pushy atheists do their respective corners no favours. The US has it's fair share of both at the moment - that situation where "atheist" US college students were offering porn for bibles no doubt infuriated many atheist groups for tarnishing the image of decency they strive to promote.

However most people on this forum are guilty of "attacking" (I prefer the term 'challenging') the 'God' theory as you put it. As most of us would have been raised in one faith or another, how else would one declare themsleves atheist/agnostic? It's only natural here that we welcome challenges or questions of that nature.

I'm sure you yourself have challenged the 'God' theory at some stage - the only difference being that you have not found it wanting.

Bodhidharma

People need to be less concerned if its "cool" to be an atheist or not. I think to believe or not is only a decision that you can make after serious thought. Simply saying yes or no is irrelevant if you put no thought into the answer.
To be honest i'd say its probably uncool to be a serious atheist, but its cool if you go around mocking the fundamentalists.

Zillah

The Atheist wrote:

There are obvious chips on shoulders and there are those who simply drop by to shout a cynical one-liner before departing for After Hours.

Clever observation

Stephen

I do like to take potshots at creationists and religious extremists and the like, as they strike me as complete nutters. I have no beef with the average christian/muslim/jew/<insert faith here> on the street, just the nutters.

Guilty, your honour :v: