Recording Drums

curtains

Question: is it possible to record drums well with three microphones? Preferably capturing hi-hats, bass drum, snare, tom-tom, crash and ride cymbals.

I know on John Frusciante's last album they only used two but the drums are fairly sparse and only really consist of snare and cymbals (in terms of what you can hear).

Doctor J

It is indeed, but the main disadvantage is that you lose the ability to focus on specific drums. Check out Glyn Johns mic setup (yeah it's for 4 mics but you can drop the snare mic because the centre overhead will pick up a lot of snare and the one over the floor tom will also pick up plenty of snare), he featured prominently on a lot of fantastic albums of the late 60's and 70's.

Be careful with this setup though that you don't go too close to the floor tom. Depending on how it's tuned, it can vibrate sympathetically and cause a sort of hum to be audible and impossible to get rid of (I learned this the hard way :v: ). As ever, the real key to a good drum sound is to make sure the kit is well tuned and the rest should be easy peasy.

red_ice

Doctor J wrote:

the real key to a good drum sound is to make sure the kit is well tuned and the rest should be easy peasy.

over tones make baby jesus cry! Our drummers drums need a ricky lake make over :v:

Doctor J

TBH I think one of the more experienced drummers around here could make a nice bit of pocket money by offering tuning services (and tuning instruction).

magpie

If that's the set up Glyn Johns used on Who's Next, then you don't need to know anything else on the subject.

red_ice

Doctor J wrote:

TBH I think one of the more experienced drummers around here could make a nice bit of pocket money by offering tuning services (and tuning instruction).

I was thinking the same thing actually on my drive home tonight!

[edit]:v: [/edit]

Maccattack

If I was you and only had three mics. depending on which mics you have. i would do it thus.

Mic on kick

mic on snare

mic on hats

mic on rack toms

record that

then set up over heads and overdub the cymbals and toms.

not the best way to do it but you only have three mics


this is why i bought the ddrum system. sampled drum sounds that you play from a kit. it cant be beaten in my opinion.

if you need help tuning let me know. be happy to help.

Doctor J

I wouldn't do it that way at all. It's impossible for a drummer to play exactly the same way twice and you'd lose a lot of the energy and groove by having the drummer stifle his/her style by playing so straight. It would just sound horrible if the overheads and close mics weren't on exactly the same beat at the same time. Plus, you've got four mics in your initial recording, not three

I've used that Glyn Johns technique a few times and it does pickup everything surprisingly well. Add a nicely tuned kit and a good drummer and you won't miss close mics at all :v:

Maccattack

Dr J

are you a drummer?

I am and have done it that way before. If a drummer cant repeat what he has done before then he aint a very good one is he.

We used that method once because the room was good for drums but not cymbals. the results were excellent.

I see what Ive said (4 mics) . What i shouldve said was 1 mic between snare and hats.

You could also and possibly prefereably mute the hats and just have the snare miced up.

to mut the cymbals and hats we wraped them in plankets and towels and stuff. it works realy well.

Doctor J

Actually yes I am... and an engineer too. I suppose it depends on how you like your drums. Personally, I like to see a drummer going for it, playing with a bit of freedom and spark and that method of recording kills what I like about drumming. That isolation method was quite big in the 80's and tbh, it doesn't do it for me. The 80's was the decade of godawful drums sounds to my ears. When I'm mixing a lot of my drum sounds would be largely made up of what would be picked up through ambient mics and use close mics just to tweak individual levels. Just a personal thing. Gimme a big, open drum sound over a closed one anyday

DublinWriter

Doctor J wrote:

That isolation method was quite big in the 80's and tbh, it doesn't do it for me. The 80's was the decade of godawful drums sounds to my ears.

Same here, it's funny how you can 'date' music by the way it sounds.

I remember doing serveral sessions and demos in the 80's and it was gaffa-tape city. Being young and foolish, I presumed the engineer knew what he was doing. Most of them were too lazy to get a good snare sound and just used the audio from the snare mic as a trigger for a midi sound.

One useful trick I did learn was to gaffa-tape an old one-pound coin to the bass drum head at the point where the beater hits and use a solid wooden beater. It gave the bass sound a little more defination and sounded very like Larry Mullen's bass sound on Bullet the Blue Sky.

tj-music.com

I know just how undrumer-ish it sounds but only when I started using V-Drums for recording all my recording issues were solved.

Recording drums can be a nightmare and the V-Drums sound really, really good.

Doctor J

Given the amount of music out there which consists of sampled drums trigged by a real kit, the V-drum is probably the way the industry is going, sadly. Not knocking them, just there's something primal and absurdly delicious about an acoustic kit being belted which stirs the soul and I'd hate to see it become a thing of the past

Maccattack

you can still have the same results via the over dub method. Infact id argue youd get better results. none of the ambience of either the drummers playing or the room would be lost. it 'kills' nothing . unless yr a crap player. and if thats the case you should spend more time practicing before you record.

the definition of tone you get from a close micd kit beats the endless reverberations you'll get from using just over heads.

This fella only has three mics so he is limited in options. He will probably use your method because its the easiest but the results will be just ok. he hasnt told us what mics hes using so im assuming they arent proper overhead mics anyway. and its probably only a demo too. so not a big deal.

But again this is why i bought the Clavia ddrum 4. Yes its an edrum system. the sounds are awesome at least on par with anything ive heard recorded, in a lot of cases better.

The Roland V drums dont cut it in my opinion and i can see why some people are against them, but dont tar all ekits with the same brush. Clavia have it nailed.

tj-music.com

Doctor J wrote:

Given the amount of music out there which consists of sampled drums trigged by a real kit, the V-drum is probably the way the industry is going, sadly. Not knocking them, just there's something primal and absurdly delicious about an acoustic kit being belted which stirs the soul and I'd hate to see it become a thing of the past

I completely agree. Fortunately the e-drum users still seem to be a minority among drummers. For recording purposes and especially when u want to practise or have to practise in an environment where you have neighbours it is just cool to be able to do it via headphones or a stereo.

E-drums have come a long way too. Having said that I also think that acoustic kits are the only real choice!

WetDaddy

Doctor J wrote:

Given the amount of music out there which consists of sampled drums trigged by a real kit, the V-drum is probably the way the industry is going, sadly. Not knocking them, just there's something primal and absurdly delicious about an acoustic kit being belted which stirs the soul and I'd hate to see it become a thing of the past

Here Here! (or is that 'Hear Hear?' )

There's nothing nicer to me than the sound of people playing acoustic instruments. And by acoustic, I mean real. And by real I mean, not sampled. Hell, you guys know what I mean.

I ain't got nothing against synths and the likes, but I do much much much prefer the sound of a genuine instrument as opposed to a sampled one.

Maccattack

deathfunk wrote:

Here Here! (or is that 'Hear Hear?' )

There's nothing nicer to me than the sound of people playing acoustic instruments. And by acoustic, I mean real. And by real I mean, not sampled. Hell, you guys know what I mean.

I ain't got nothing against synths and the likes, but I do much much much prefer the sound of a genuine instrument as opposed to a sampled one.

The fact of the matter is you dont know what you are talking about. It always amazes me how many young people have dinosaur mentalities.

I would bet my lefty that a lot of the music you think is 'real' as you call it is actually sampled.

WetDaddy

Maccattack wrote:

The fact of the matter is you dont know what you are talking about. It always amazes me how many young people have dinosaur mentalities.

I would bet my lefty that a lot of the music you think is 'real' as you call it is actually sampled.

Whoa there, Horsie. Nobody's out to get you here. You go ahead and bet whatever you like. You don't know anything about me, so don't prejudge me or my mentality.

My comment was intended to be somewhat light-hearted (a point I tried to make clear by saying I didn't know exactly how to explain what I meant!). What I feel is that I actually like the sound of someone hitting a tom rim in the middle of a fill occasionally; or very subtle fret noise; or the clack of a sax valve. That doesn't mean I vehemently despise other instruments or recordings. It just means I happen to prefer what I've mentioned.

And hey, that's just what I like. You like what you like. Chances are, there's probably even stuff we BOTH like.

Savman

curtains wrote:

Question: is it possible to record drums well with three microphones?

In my opinion, simple answer, yes. Very Good Kick Mic with 2 Good Overheads will do the job grand.

moonboy

Maccattack wrote:

The fact of the matter is you dont know what you are talking about. It always amazes me how many young people have dinosaur mentalities.

I would bet my lefty that a lot of the music you think is 'real' as you call it is actually sampled.

i suppose youre an autotune fan as well??

moonboy

Savman wrote:

In my opinion, simple answer, yes. Very Good Kick Mic with 2 Good Overheads will do the job grand.

agreed with savman..
might not be to your taste but heres drums i recorded and played with 2 AKG overheads and a shure beta 52a..
www.myspace.com/thetrurosyndicate
listen to the 2nd half of "nova scotia mile". the rest is just brushes. and not the best example.
ran straight into an 8 track. no pissing around with compression or anything.
theyre not amazing.
but its 3 mics.

WetDaddy

Ah yes, I have heard The Truro Syndicate CD which was recorded at home (I'm pretty certain) and I must say that it's very good quality for a home-recording.

Just goes to show you that what they say is true: The sound engineer's best piece of equipment will always be their ears. Technology's come on in leaps and bounds which is fantastic, but a good pair of ears is invaluable.

God bless them, one and all!

Maccattack

moonboy wrote:

i suppose youre an autotune fan as well??

Ive never tried it but think its a great idea in principle. There are very few singers that can hit the right notes all the time. Why not? If it improves your recording then why not?

Again. There are probably loads of commercial recordings that have been autotuned. so what?

Or is a case of "If you dont have perfect pitch then dont bother singing". Is that it?

Are you against the use of Pro Tools? Thats a very popluar bit of technology that has a lot of correction tools.

moonboy

Maccattack wrote:

Ive never tried it but think its a great idea in principle. There are very few singers that can hit the right notes all the time. Why not? If it improves your recording then why not?

Again. There are probably loads of commercial recordings that have been autotuned. so what?

Or is a case of "If you dont have perfect pitch then dont bother singing". Is that it?

Are you against the use of Pro Tools? Thats a very popluar bit of technology that has a lot of correction tools.

im not even gona dignify that with a response.
nothing personal.

daram

Maccattack has been pretty much wrong with most things so far. There are just about no studios/engineers/artists out there that would ever overdub in a single drum recording. And I am speaking from experience here. Some of the best drum sounds out there have been recorded with only a handful of mics. I'd like to hear some samples of this drum over dubbing. I will also gladly post samples of drums which i recorded recently only using 4 mics (kick, snare, 2 overheads) and let people decide which sound better. Also, if you try a sampled beat I'll know.

Doctor J

FFS calm down people, what's with the bickering? There is no right or wrong way to do it, just what achieves the sound you are going for best on the occasion. The overdubbing technique was rampant during the 80's and early 90's, if you'd care to spend 2 minutes looking it up you can see for yourself. It is still in use a lot today. Maccattack is also spot on saying that a lot of contemporary albums use sampled drums. That doesn't necessarily mean it's a synthetic drum sound, more often than not it's a real acoustic drum excellently recorded and what is recorded is replaced by these samples using sound replacer software which is very, very widespread. There are thousands of fantastic kits sitting out there in drum sample libraries and most of the albums you hear today use that technique. Don't doubt it. Why waste valuable time in a studio getting good drum sounds when they're already there for you? Depending on the skill of the engineer there is no way you'd pick it out by ear. Don't every con yourself into thinking that your favourite band are too artisically noble to adopt such a technique. Their producer, engineer and record company don't give a **** and want their name on a successful album. If a certain drum sound is in you can guarantee that samples will be used on a multitude of records to try to acheive that sound. That's the way of the business.

Recording is a science as well as an art. It is wise to keep both sides in mind when you are putting something to tape. As I said before, personally I prefer to record a kit naturally and have the drummer perform and do something special, rather than aim for perfection. I found the isolation recording way a little stifling. Let the ****er rip. That's just the way I like it, though if the music required something different it's just plain ignorance to discount other techniques of recording.