Irish ferries dispute/flags of convenince/low wages/ and the Nice treaty etc

dathi1

Well I hope none of the workers who have lost their Jobs voted yes to Nice "for Jobs" (the buzz word then) as recommended by their unions and Bertie: http://www.siptu.ie/news/article.php?id=687 I hope the ones who didn't get work elsewhere quickly....That's if they can compete with their eastern block succession state co workers.

walshb

Serves them right for voting YES to Nice......the electorate of Ireland really proved their stupidity in allowing Bertie and Co to apologise to Europe because we voted NO, then hold another referendum and what does the electorate DO????, they go and vote YES.......

Macmorris

As I understand it, what's happening now with Irish Ferries has nothing to do with immigration. The staff at the company woke up one morning and decided that they just didn't want to do that kind of work anymore.

Everyone knows that immigrants will only work in jobs that Irish people are too lazy to do.

pete

Macmorris wrote:

As I understand it, what's happening now with Irish Ferries has nothing to do with immigration.

Funny you should mention that. How many of the new Latvian staff have actually migrated to Ireland?

Zombrex

This has nothing to do with immigration, it has to do with outsourcing. It is pretty much the same as if Dell closed all the Irish factories and moved to India.

Bloodychancer

Wicknight wrote:

This has nothing to do with immigration, it has to do with outsourcing. It is pretty much the same as if Dell closed all the Irish factories and moved to India.

No it would be similar to Dell putting an Indian Flag over the Factory then sacking all its Irish Based workers and hiring in people who are so desperate for work that they would work for less than 4 euro an hour (ie below the minimum wage) and have none of the protections offered to Irish workers.

The simple solution is for a law that states any ship on a regular route between this country and another EU state must apply either the labour law here or the Labour law in the other EU state. Not the labour law in the Bahamas or where ever Irish ferries have applied to flag there ships.

If Irish Ferries want to move there ships to India or the Bahamas then let them do so but if they want to operate from Irish Ports to other EU ports then they have to be subject to the law of some EU country.

What Irish Ferries are doing is playing into the hands of the Racists and anti immigration types by allowing them to play on the fears people have of job security etc

netwhizkid

I agree with the op, I am in favour of savagely curtailing immigration into Ireland, yet the "replacements" by Irish ferries are as much the victims as the Irish people involved. They are nothing short of modern day slaves, €3.60 an hour. This government has a lot to answer for, yet as much as i blame them, I rest the majority of the blame on two factors, Bertie Ahern for allowing Harney to Dominatrix him. Fianna Fail are no good however they would not be this bad, as a person recently said to me, The crying shame of the debacle was that FF didn't get the majority or have a few Independents propping them up.

The progressive Democrats are now doing almost an equal amount of damage to this country as the British did. Mary Harney should be indicted for high treason and be made serve her whole life in Magdalene Laundry type conditions. As a nation of workers we must resist the neo liberal agenda stop the exploitation of workers. The right wing fascists will try throw the blame on the replacements, however they are not to blame.

Neo liberal Capitalist Imperialism must be stopped, The stealing of the Iraqi Oil, Globalisation, Global Warming, When will the world wake up. They will wake up when it is too late, as Arthur C. Clarke once said, I fell one day human life shall have to depart this planet to survive, I'm afraid he's right because if the neo-liberal agenda isn't stopped man will destroy the world.

A Dub in Glasgo

Bloodychancer wrote:

No it would be similar to Dell putting an Indian Flag over the Factory then sacking all its Irish Based workers and hiring in people who are so desperate for work that they would work for less than 4 euro an hour (ie below the minimum wage) and have none of the protections offered to Irish workers.

The simple solution is for a law that states any ship on a regular route between this country and another EU state must apply either the labour law here or the Labour law in the other EU state. Not the labour law in the Bahamas or where ever Irish ferries have applied to flag there ships.

If Irish Ferries want to move there ships to India or the Bahamas then let them do so but if they want to operate from Irish Ports to other EU ports then they have to be subject to the law of some EU country.

What Irish Ferries are doing is playing into the hands of the Racists and anti immigration types by allowing them to play on the fears people have of job security etc

Absolutely spot on

jrey1981

Its interesting that Bertie Ahern seems powerless to do much about this, although I heard one quote from him that was along the lines of "irish ferries management are trying to turn back the clock"

No Thatcher moment for Bertie then (in the 80s Rupert Murdoch moved his newspaper production in London to Wapping...Maggie and the police were behind him all the way)

corrected...

dirtyharry1971

I just think it's sick that Irish Ferries managed to get away with this. It's outrageous!!!! I myself personally will be making a point of not travelling with them ever again even if they become the low-fair ferry service as a result of exploiting underpaid migrant staff. I think the Irish people should boycott Irish ferries and use alternate transport services on principal.
Who is with me??

My god it would be good to see them go under by the hand of the people they screwed. Maybe we should start a poll on this and see what kind of reaction we get




(**** I sound like eddie hobbs):v:

Bloodychancer

dirtyharry1971 wrote:

I just think it's sick that Irish Ferries managed to get away with this. It's outrageous!!!! I myself personally will be making a point of not travelling with them ever again even if they become the low-fair ferry service as a result of exploiting underpaid migrant staff. I think the Irish people should boycott Irish ferries and use alternate transport services on principal.
Who is with me??

My god it would be good to see them go under by the hand of the people they screwed. Maybe we should start a poll on this and see what kind of reaction we get




(**** I sound like eddie hobbs):v:

I agree with you I will never travel with them even if they are free

Solair

e-mail or write to their HQ making your point very clear.

I will never travel with them again. Their Ireland-France service is terrible compared to Brittany ferries anyway!

Personally, I'd like to see them prevented from landing in Irish ports until they start playing by Irish or some EU labour legislation.

They also might consider dropping the term Irish from their title! They clearly aren't willing to play by Irish rules, so why should the be allowed to sully our country's name?

Bahamas Ferries or whatever they like, but the shamrock and the Irish should be dropped as it's clear misrepresentation if they're flying under a flag of convenience.

pete

Bloodychancer wrote:

No it would be similar to Dell putting an Indian Flag over the Factory then sacking all its Irish Based workers and hiring in people who are so desperate for work that they would work for less than 4 euro an hour (ie below the minimum wage) and have none of the protections offered to Irish workers.

It's nothing of the sort. If Dell were to do this they'd be subject to Irish employment law and all it entails. If they were to close their Irish operation in favour of offshoring the jobs to India / Latvia / whereever then you'd have a valid comparison.

What Irish Ferries are doing is playing into the hands of the Racists and anti immigration types by allowing them to play on the fears people have of job security etc

Right on.

pete

netwhizkid wrote:

I agree with the op, I am in favour of savagely curtailing immigration into Ireland

How exactly would curtailing immigration have any effect on the Irish Ferries situation?

billy the squid

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4473508.stm from the BBC

Im not well versed on the Law of the Sea or any of that sort of stuff. I read people saying that the ships are governed by the law of whichever flag they happen to be flying, but the company of Irish ferries surely has a certificate of incorporation at Dublin Castle. would this not mean that it has to adhere to employment law in this country, namely legislation on redundancy?

oscarBravo

netwhizkid wrote:

I am in favour of savagely curtailing immigration into Ireland... snip incoherent rant.

Your concern for eastern Europeans is touching. Only genuine and heartfelt human kindness could give rise to the kind of logic that would protect (potential) immigrants from exploitation by Irish Ferries - by denying them access to better-paid jobs in Ireland.

Bravo. Well done.

the_syco

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/6835888?view=Eircomnet

[FONT=Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif]Port workers at Dublin and Rosslare have said they will turn away the Irish Ferries vessel, MV Normandy, if it tries to dock in either port.

Heh. Pawned. Lets see how they continue to offer services to Ireland, if no-one allows them in.
[/FONT]

Cork

dirtyharry1971 wrote:

I just think it's sick that Irish Ferries managed to get away with this. It's outrageous!!!!

Shops are also selling goods from goods produced in countries paying workers a pittance.

Are we going to start boycotting these shops?

SIPTU are not being consistant here.

pete

Cork wrote:

Shops are also selling goods from goods produced in countries paying workers a pittance.

Are we going to start boycotting these shops?

SIPTU are not being consistant here.

well obviously it's all the union's fault.

Cork

well obviously it's all the union's fault.

It is not.

Not is it the fault of Ryanair who are competing aganist ferry companies.

Many jobs have left this country and moved else where.

It did not start with Irish Ferries.

[sticks oar in...] Will the market not decide the fate of Irish ferries? ie if the public are outraged they simply wont travel with them? [/oar moves...]

I'd agree with the poster who suggested that this should be resolved by agreements that ships travelling between countries in the E.U should be subject to EU labour laws.

That might only resolve one thing though-the ships would be crewed legally by non unionised staff on the exact minimum wage.

A part of the problem is the holy grail of cheap air travel.
Prior to the advent of cheap air travel ferry companies had the market pretty much sowed up and now they dont.


I remember Tony Blair in the last couple of weeks being grilled about environmental polution iirc by a commons committee and he said "hands up how many of you would vote to end cheap air travel?" none did.

So I go back to where I stuck the oar in... do you think people will stop using ferries because of this ?
I think I already know the answer to the question of what would happen if the ferries had to raise fares due to rising labour costs-yes simple market economic-the answer is , thats one way they would lose customers.
They are doing this at the moment because they can.
Whether they get away with it,is down to the sometimes fickle[read: self interested/selfish uninterested] public.

netwhizkid

If the workers had guts, they would scuttle the ships. But then "they" would be the baddies. I hope No-one ever again uses Irish Ferries and the government sets-up a new National Ferry service owned by the people for the people. I hope the people pickets their offices too. Bonded labour has no place in
Ireland. and one of the main reasons for all this is Michael O'Leary, If the people went so tight and Ryanair never were successful Low-Fares would never have come about. But them shot of cowboys will soon get their comeuppance when one of their planes crash, Have anyone ever read of their dismal maintenance and safety record? Do a Google search or here on boards. Low-fares should never come about at the expense of the worker or the customers service.

Macmorris

netwhizkid wrote:

The progressive Democrats are now doing almost an equal amount of damage to this country as the British did. Mary Harney should be indicted for high treason and be made serve her whole life in Magdalene Laundry type conditions.

How are you so sure that the PDs are to blame for the immigration problem? I'm not a big fan of Mary Harney but I seem to remember that she made a big deal a few years ago about companies having to prove that they tried to fill their jobs with Irish workers before they applied for work-permits for foreign workers. I find it hard to believe that she was behind the decision to have no restrictions on eastern immigration. I think it was Brian Cowen, the minister of foreign affairs at the time, who was responsible for that inspired decision.

pete wrote:

How exactly would curtailing immigration have any effect on the Irish Ferries situation?

It might not have any effect on the Irish Ferries case but it will prevent the same thing happening with other jobs within Ireland. What's happening with Irish Ferries is not just a one-off. This as just the beginning of a race to the bottom in the Irish labour market. There are thousands of low-paid jobs, particularly in manufacturing, that will be at greater risk because of what's happening with Irish Ferries. Companies that could survive alright by employing Irish people at a comfortable wage will now have an incentive to cut costs by employing foreigners at a much lower rate. The result will be either fewer jobs for low-skilled Irish people or the gradual lowering of wages for those people Irish people who have to compete with the immigrants.

By cutting off immigration we can deny those companies a pool of cheap labour so that they won't be able to threaten their Irish workers. The more immigrants we have in this country who will work for less than what what Irish people will work for, the less secure will be the jobs of the low-payed Irish workers. Unless we cut down on immigration (I read that we have four times as many, per head of population, as America), in a few years I can predict that the minimum wage will become the only wage available for the low-skilled workers in this country.

Victor

netwhizkid wrote:

If the workers had guts, they would scuttle the ships.

I don't think merchant ships are design to be scuttled.

I'd like to congratuate you on encouraging others to do this, rather than do it yourself. You armchair admiral.

Hagar

While I feel sorry for the poor bastards queueing up willingly to be exploited I support the unions on this one.

Charity begins at home. If you can call a fair day's pay for a fair day's work charity.

Cork

Macmorris wrote:

This as just the beginning of a race to the bottom in the Irish labour market.

I agree. We saw it this week with the Irish suger beet farmers being sold out.

The Irish economy is uncompetitive. The cost base in this country is high.

It is going well on the back of borrowing and the construction industry.

We live in a global economy where companies can easily up root and move on.

Bloodychancer

pete wrote:

It's nothing of the sort. If Dell were to do this they'd be subject to Irish employment law and all it entails. If they were to close their Irish operation in favour of offshoring the jobs to India / Latvia / whereever then you'd have a valid comparison.



.

Except Irish Ferries are not moving or closing their operation they will still operate from Irish ports to the UK and France
Again the solution is Obvious Irish ferries should have to operate to the standards laid down by one of the 3 countries they operate to.

Bloodychancer

Earthman wrote:

[sticks oar in...] Will the market not decide the fate of Irish ferries? ie if the public are outraged they simply wont travel with them? [/oar moves...]

I'd agree with the poster who suggested that this should be resolved by agreements that ships travelling between countries in the E.U should be subject to EU labour laws.

That might only resolve one thing though-the ships would be crewed legally by non unionised staff on the exact minimum wage.
.

It would mean they were in the same situation as any Irish company instead of being able to pick a flag that allows them to exploit immigrants with no choice but to accept the terms offered by Irish Ferries.

At the moment any Irish comapny could sack its entire work force and replace them with cheap EU immigrant labour. Not many have chosen to take that path for various reasons.

Irish Ferries is in the position that it can pay below minimum wage and it will house the workers on Board the ship so that they can not find alternative employment. nor will they be subject to various Health and safety legislation protecting Irish based workers.

A Dub in Glasgo

Cork wrote:

The Irish economy is uncompetitive. The cost base in this country is high.

.

You reckon people in Ireland are paid too much for the work that they do? I reckon it is not enough to have a good standard of living in Ireland. How do we square that circle? Do you think you get paid too much?

Threads merged

Title changed slightly

Hibernian2005

As someone who voted Yes in both Nice referenda, I now wish I hadn't. We were warned by the No side of a influx of cheap labour and the consequent loss of Irish jobs. We should have believed it it was true.

The Government should not have vetoed the EU Ferries Directive last year. If passed it would have imposed uniform labour standards regardless of nationality for ferry crews. I hear it's coming back again. Bertie must support it this time. I am normally an admirer of the PD's but as they have been silent on this issue, I am considering voting for Labour if the Government does nothing to stop displacement and as Labour is now criticising the taking of Irish jobs by cheap labour. However, one thing holding me back from voting Labour is the contradiction between their sentiments against this displacement while simultaneously, their demands for a more liberal immigration system. They seem contradictory.

We cannot separate this issue of Irish Ferries from immigration, because without immigration migrant workers would not be replacing Irish ones.