Heat Pumps

josephd

Hi CJ
Unless it is very much different than the conventional two door system, one at a short distance, inside the other, they're all inherently flawed.

Wow! what a remark, you might well say or not, but consider this;

With a swinging door (hinged, left or right), air is going to be displaced by the fanning action of the door. Warm air is either going to be pulled and/or pushed by the surface area of the door.
A sliding door is much better where it is the edge of the door (fifty to seventy millimetres, or whatever), which cuts into or through the air.

Such things are of marginal benefit, and no benefit all where individuals might insist on slow passage through doors.

Which reverts back to the heat pump theory or practice. If you put one watt of energy into anything, and get more than that back, you're doing well. If you put in one watt and get a conservative three watts back, then that is fantastic.
Any other wastetage is another matter, including door construction and usage.

I did explore the possibility of a revolving door which would be hung from above, opposed to someone having to enter sections or quadrants. The drawings and workable theory was a bit too futuristic/weird/deemed unnecessary/bereft of support, at the time.

Run with this yourself if you see any sense in it, or laugh at it.
It is better suited to industrial applications, over domestic, due to the size needed for comfort.

Consider a revolving door as an insulated glass cylinder, on end. No sections or segments, but just an empty space within it. (Its hung from above, not supported from the ground up).

Have an opening (one, and modern regulation width or well above).
Step in through the opening, and pull the door around through 180 degrees.

As well as eliminating any fanning action, you could step out in your intended direction, and swing the door again through 180 degrees.
The cold air (thought slightly warmer, and time dependent) within the "door" or revolving chamber would be returned "outside".

What do you say to that?

megadodge

JosephD, thanks for your input as I'm very undecided at the moment what heating system to use. I'm interested in your comment -

My only suggestion is that you consider an energy specialist, before you plan your house. Look for experience within an Irish climate or the climate of whichever country you live in, and experience in modern Ireland and European implications for the future.

Could you suggest one, or where could I go looking ? Obviously an independent voice with nothing to gain.

Thanks.

CJhaughey

josephd
I like your lateral thinking and problem solving.
I just think that it is easier to get a little carried away with the minutiae of energy saving with doors.
The passive house apparently will have a micro heatpump docked to the solar panels and possibly a windturbine to provide a small amount of heat.
While your idea for a door has merit in practice it would be so expensive to fit and manufacture that you would most likely blow your heatpump budget on the entrance alone.
I would agree that it would be of most use in a commercial passive building, maybe patent search it?
I spoke with the owner of the passive house and he said the main reason for twin door is that to have a single door that was good enough to match the rest of the houses insulation it would be unfeasibly thick and also rather ugly, rather like a bank vault door.

josephd

Hi Megadodge,
Impartiality may be difficult to find.
Free advice/suggestions, will have issues and so will commercial interests. The world will revolve without perfection I'm afraid, lol. And only because of it, perhaps.

Anyway, the best specialist may be yourself and your ability to differentiate between semi-truths and what is left.
You may have noticed Ciaran's post on the earlier heat pump thread? Now he is a retired Mech. eng. and still had to use his own observations over the word of his contractor (re the depth of the installation).
He is also correct in that any company which may send a client/potential client, to other customers, would not and could not get accurate feedback.

The very bottom line as I see it (with a broad engineering background and analogue electronics) is that the majority of heat pumps are fantastic and any percieved problems come from incorrect installation, the over view of the house, rather than the heat pump itself.

If you put one kilowatt into anything and get "three to four", in return, then any problem is not with the heat pump, per se.
(if any electric motors can perform as they should, any other percieved faults lie elsewhere).

However, that is the generic heat pump itself (there isn't much to them, really).
The looping systems provides some variables.

Basically there is the horizontal. This is no more than a loop or coil of "pipe" sunk about a foot or whatever, into your "lawn".

The Vertical. There is sometimes a little confusion over this, depending where in the world you are talking about it. In some parts of America, this is similar to the horizonal system, only that it is in a "trench" of some depth.
Another perception is that the vertical (more local perception) is basically a loop that is put down a "hole", and as far as possible (though not quite to Australia, lol).
This is said to be better as the horizontal system will absorb local heat from above and below that loop. It must be remembered that you may only have ten inches (250 mms) to a foot (300mms), above it. Should such a loop absorb (as it is designed to do), local heat, then its general efficiciency will drop.
Does this make sense? It the loop/coil of pipe, has cooled the local area by a degree for example, then it would have less to play with (or what some describe as temperature differential).
A long vertical loop would have some advantage efficiciency-wise, in this respect.

Air or over ground system. The popular defense of this is that the average temperature of Ireland over a year is somewhere close to 8 degrees. The manufactures of these systems will argue that ground temperature (whether horizontal or vertical), does not fluctuate much. Would you agree with that?

Air temperature can relatively be many times higher, so should you have Zero degrees celcius over ground, then my friends manufacturer claims that its efficiency is still over three. (One kilowatt in, and three out)
So we must all do our own maths on this balance???

So statistics must be local to Ireland, from any manufacturer.

Some people will watch Duncan Stewart (excellent program), but fail to realize that while he is getting info. on a system which is in use in Hungary for example, that his objective is not to argue a systems merits (in relation to Ireland) with the engineers of that country. It should be treated as it is seen, and in the temperature context of that region.

Another implication as well as available surface area (in the case of the horizontal loop), is that some areas of Ireland are difficult to drill, or too expensive to drill. Some of the Granite regions of Connemara for example, or the marble of Kilkenny for another example.

There may even be further implications with regard to the bogs of Allen?

Anyway, I just heard today that a company which used to service wind/electricity generators internationally, has branched into drilling large diameter holes which might facilitate small towns supply.

Wouldn't such a solution save a lot of headaches and expense? Though, I'm not sure that the political will in a local regard, exists.

Conclusion; If we had a few more items as efficient as any workable heatpump, we'd be doing well.

Quick question to any one who cares to answer; Would it be cheaper to boil a cylinder of water with a large microwave oven over an electrical emmersion?
Another thread perhaps.

air

josephd wrote:

Quick question to any one who cares to answer; Would it be cheaper to boil a cylinder of water with a large microwave oven over an electrical emmersion?
Another thread perhaps.

No quite the opposite in fact. An electrical element submerged in water performs a near 100% efficient electrical -> heat energy conversion.
A microwave oven will have iron, inductive and resistive losses in the initial transformer stage, inefficiency in the microwave emitter and leakage of radiation from the cooking area + it runs a light (if we're to get really pedantic ).
So no, stick to the immersion, keep the tank well insulated.

Evergreen

Hello,

This is a very interesting discussion.

If anybody is interested in doing a heat load calculation on their house then let me know, I have an Excel program that I use everyday for determining the size of heating requirements a house will need. It takes in all elements of the house, i.e. wall type, numbers and type of windows/doors, ceiling insulation, etc.

CJhaughey

I am interested can you PM it to me?

smadger

Hi Evergreen - I'll take a copy if it's going.

Evergreen

Hello,

I don't know how to transfer items within the forum, is it possible or do I need your email address to email directly?

smadger

Me neither, so I sent you a PM with my email address.

Cheers

Cahervillahowe

Just joined - fascinated by discussion! I am currently building 250sqm single story house in Tipperary and am close to permanent confusion with regard to all the available heating options and the various claims made by manufacturers. Given a "blank-canvas" (other than fact that I have underfloor heating pipes already fitted), what would you all recommend for heating / hot water (solar / geothermal / air source / wood pellet etc). Won't say money is not an issue - of course it is! House is single story, Argon E-glass windows ordered, high-density double foil-backed insulation in floor & walls. All thoughts welcomed!

Keeks

Evergreen wrote:

Hello,

I don't know how to transfer items within the forum, is it possible or do I need your email address to email directly?

Just add it as an attachment to yhour post and everyone who wants it can them download it. Easy as that!

Or you can email it to me at keeks@boards.ie and I'll add it.

mrbig

Ragazza wrote:

Hello, I am looking for a person living in a new house with a heat pump system installed. or someone who knows someone. I am designing a house for my parents. They are a bit dubious about the Heat Pump. My brothers insist you can't go wrong with oil, and think the heat pump is a con and you will never make your money back.:mad: (They are not construction professionals and as I am a girl, what would I know.:mad: :mad: :mad: I am an Architectural Technition)
We are building this house for my parents to retire to, they will not have much of an income and I believe spend once now rather than over and over again in the future.

Mum and Dad want to hear from the horses mouth that this system works.:)

Your brother is right, i have just finished building and talked to dozens of people who had this type of system, everyone of them said they were expensive to run,at best they cost around the same as oil to run.
i ruled it out for the following reasons,
The system costs around €15,000 as opposed to €1,500 for an oil or gas burner thats nearly 10 years of a fuel bill.
Its not efficient at producing hot water you will need to use electricty to boost the temperature of your hot water.
Its not suitable for radiators, the radiator in my opinion is ideal for the bedrooms of a house as you want higher temp before you go to bed, lower whilst you sleep and warm in the morning, underfloor cant give type of flexibility. I have it downstairs its a very even warmth but you just cant turn it up and down as it takes hours to change temp.
last but not least, how effective it is depends on the ground temp, if we get very little heat in the summer you wont have the stored heat in the ground in the winter so the heat pump has to work harder to produce the required heat.
costing more,

I agree with some of the other posts insulate insulate insulate.

Ps. I haved worked on industrial heat exchangers they are extremly reliable however they are more effecient as they use three phase motors as opposed to single phase in a domestic house.
I also agree with your brother on the logic of keeping things simple, your parents may not be able to find a heating engineer familiar with this system when it breaks down,the parts may be difficult to find and i wouldn't hold my breath on the suppliers to hold your hand five or six year down the road.

Good luck with the house.

mrbig

Any update on the heat pump costs, you said you were spending around €50 a week , thats not too bad.

Viking House

CJhaughey wrote:

Why do you not build a passive house?
Negate the need to heat the house by superinsulating from scratch.
10w/m2 is about what a passive house needs averaged over the year.
and 15Kwh/m2 for the annual space heating requirements.
here is a link to the only company producing standardised Passive houses in Ireland that I know of.
http://www.scanhome.ie/passive.php

We also build passive houses in both timberframe and blockbuilt form.

rugbymad

can anyone tell me if aerothermal heat pump can be used very near the sea shore? i am wondering about salt laden winds. thanks.

tashkurgan

We are about 1 mile from the sea shore and having spoken to a number of aerothermal suppliers - i 'believe' that its not going to be a problem - in fact the warmer air temps near the coast will improve the efficiency of the unit in general. We are in the final stages of getting an aerothermal system installed and expect to give the contract to the supplier shortly. Down to a sweco or dimplex system.

And before anyone asks, our soil quality is just too poor for geothermal.

Nordic

Ragazza wrote:

Hello, I am looking for a person living in a new house with a heat pump system installed. or someone who knows someone. I am designing a house for my parents. They are a bit dubious about the Heat Pump. My brothers insist you can't go wrong with oil, and think the heat pump is a con and you will never make your money back.:mad: (They are not construction professionals and as I am a girl, what would I know.:mad: :mad: :mad: I am an Architectural Technition)
We are building this house for my parents to retire to, they will not have much of an income and I believe spend once now rather than over and over again in the future.

Mum and Dad want to hear from the horses mouth that this system works.:)

What a load of BS I hear from people who know nothing about heat pumps professing to know it all.

Call me on 058-60949 and I'll show you it working and show you the bills. That will clear up ALL the B***S*** on here about heat pumps. No obligation whatsoever - just sick of hearing C**P.
This proof in the pudding.

Then having seen that, make your own mind up ... read facts ESB bills and then look the work done for that size of bill. There can then be no dispute, there's no BS, just FACTS, end of story.

The same people are on here banging on about heat pumps for months and not one has had any facts correct. You can ignore it or listen, but if you fail to listen with your ears, you'll listen with your pocket.

Boggle

Hello Nordic, I'm trying to get a better understanding of heatpumps so if you would be so good as to answer a few questions that'd be great. Even if you can only quote from personal experience... if you work in the field then even better...
How much did it cost to install?
For how big a house?
What is maintenance like - do you have any projections of any maintenance costs over the next 10 years? How difficulty is it to find any fault?
Finally, how much extra a year does it put on your ESB bill to run a house?

Its alot of questions I know but I'm just curious, as are most on here, as to the real costs of this system as at the end of the day cost is hugely important...

Sound!!

Nordic

Boggle wrote:

Hello Nordic, I'm trying to get a better understanding of heatpumps so if you would be so good as to answer a few questions that'd be great. Even if you can only quote from personal experience... if you work in the field then even better...
How much did it cost to install?
For how big a house?
What is maintenance like - do you have any projections of any maintenance costs over the next 10 years? How difficulty is it to find any fault?
Finally, how much extra a year does it put on your ESB bill to run a house?

Its alot of questions I know but I'm just curious, as are most on here, as to the real costs of this system as at the end of the day cost is hugely important...

Sound!!

5,300ft2 house, 2,400ft2 workshop, demos daily in workshop, office 5pcs 24/7, cctv, elec gates, well water, heating, cooking, lighting, etc. mid sept to mid-jan incl Xmas €799 all-in, incl VAT & night-rate standing charges.
No maintenance.
e-mail me info@nordic-geothermal.com I'll e-mail copy of bill.
Check our site for solar panel giveaway www.nordic-geothermal.com

Boggle

Cheers nordic - good read. Seems impressive (don't need copy of bill - believe you). What is the likelihood of failure (leak etc) and how difficult would it be to locate such a fault?

Keeks

Nordic wrote:

5,300ft2 house, 2,400ft2 workshop, demos daily in workshop, office 5pcs 24/7, cctv, elec gates, well water, heating, cooking, lighting, etc. mid sept to mid-jan incl Xmas €799 all-in, incl VAT & night-rate standing charges.[/url]

I'd be interested to know what kinda of setup allows you to run all that? I'm sure a lot of other ppl would like to know too. I'd be guessing that to install all that would cost quite a few bob?

Mortmain

Hi folks, interesting discussion.

Here’s my story, just coming up to 1 year in my new house, 2,500 sq. ft new build dormer. The whole house is very heavily insulated and fully oil heated. The oil costs for the year will be €3,000. The oil heats the water and can be switched to heat upstairs only, downstairs only or water only. Thermostats are fitted in 4 zones around the house. Our ESB bills are very reasonable (€120 for the Christmas/winter period). We had looked into solar and heatpump systems when building as we would have liked to do a little more for the environment (and see if we could save a few quid in the process) but found that the costs didn’t really justify. The heatpump system would have been very expensive to install (€15,000) and there were no SEI grants at the time. When we compared the running costs (lower oil costs v higher ESB bills and the interest payable on an extra €15,000 mortgage over 30 yrs) it just seemed like it would be far too long before the cost was justified. Now, whilst I appreciate the need to think of the welfare of future generations, the Banks won’t give a mortgage discount for such generosity and cash would only stretch so far. Anyhoo the upshot is that now I have a warm house which is pretty cheap to run but I still do feel a little guilty. Just thought I’d share that with ye.

air

Can someone explain to me how heat pumps can possibly be seen as some sort of environmentally friendly source of energy at present?
Fair enough they are better than resistive electric heating but that is a joke anyway and basically never used as the main heating source for houses in this country.

Given that the COP of a heat pump is being bandied around here as a factor of 3 to 4 I'll take 3 as a realistic figure.
Electricity generation and delivery to our homes is going to be at best 30%ish efficient.
So you use one unit of electricity to generate 3 units of heat using your heat pump, however 3 units of heat have been used to generate that one unit of electricity at the power station!
Why not burn the oil where the heat is needed and forego the complexity of all the conversions along the way?

air

Anyone?

mjffey

Anyone every tried to use a small wind turbine to run a heatpump?

air

It would need to be a substantial turbine - I'd guess in the 3m diameter range for a typical house.
Can someone give some concrete figures on annual Kwh usage of a heatpump for a typical Irish house?

Ayla

Nordic wrote:

What a load of BS I hear from people who know nothing about heat pumps professing to know it all.

Call me on 058-60949 and I'll show you it working and show you the bills. That will clear up ALL the B***S*** on here about heat pumps. No obligation whatsoever - just sick of hearing C**P.
This proof in the pudding.

Then having seen that, make your own mind up ... read facts ESB bills and then look the work done for that size of bill. There can then be no dispute, there's no BS, just FACTS, end of story.

The same people are on here banging on about heat pumps for months and not one has had any facts correct. You can ignore it or listen, but if you fail to listen with your ears, you'll listen with your pocket.

It's been awhile since I've checked in with this thread, but I've always valued it because it seems the only place where people can discuss what they've learned and ask the genuine questions they have.

One quick comment before I continue, though. Nordic, comments like yours seem, to me, quite unconstructive. Where are you going with these statements? To my knowledge, no one here is deliberately misleading anyone else, and there is never a cut and dry answer to any one question. What may work for one doesn't work for another. All we can base our decisions on is averages, and experience of those who live in similar environments. I appreciate the fact that you may be frustrated with how "people bang on about heat pumps," but we're all here trying to make the right decision for ourselves, and I'd guess that no one appreciated your comments.

Furthermore, Mortmain, no heat pump company out there professes that their systems are cheaper to have than an oil pump. That's obvious. It will cost approx 15K to install a heat pump, and they are, inherently, more complicated than a simple oil tank and burner. But by your own admission, if you pay 3K per annum to buy oil at the current prices, can you not see that it'll take no more than a max of 10 years to see the benefits in a heat pump? Even if you consider the ESB bill (on night-saver rates) and the interest rates from an additional 15K mortgage (which will rack on an additional 840 euro/year), heat pumps can be more cost-efficient if you're planning on living in the house more than 10 years. And with oil prices doing what they are, in 10 years, oil may not be an affordable option anymore. So, yes, installing a heat pump is initally a much more expensive option than oil, but I suppose it just boils down to how long you'll be living in the home and whether you can justify your decision based on your own financial and living situations.

So, like I said there earlier, there's no one solution to any problem. Everyone has to decide for themselves. What's right for you may not be for me, and vise versa.

Bomany

Found this discussion very interesting. I am going to install a geothermal system in a new build. I would be interested to know which heat pumps are thought better than others. The companies I have been in contact with supply the following: Heliotherm, Alpha Innotec, Ochsner, IVT and Nibe. Are these systems much the same or does anyone have info on which might be the "best buy". Thanks.

rugbymad

looked into geoth. was disappointed to learn one had to oversize rads. if not going underfloor,got good advice from company called Solterra west cork.

funcrusher

This is an interesting site. My son is about to build a large new house, probably with a heat pump. Myself, I'm a retired Chartered Engineer who was studying heat pumps, thermodynamics, and domestic heating before most of you were born. I can see that most of you are confused, talking at cross-purposes, or simply barking up the wrong tree. That's why there is so much disagreement.

I'll try to find time over the next week so to do a detailed write up which I hope may help. Watch this space!

Meanwhile, keep in mind that the cheapest, most efficient, ecologically sound, sustainable, renewable and proven heating device is the wool jersey. Sheep survive extreme cold with no ill-effects, providing they are not wet. When I was a boy, and for 5000 years until about 1960, the criteria for ordinary people choosing winter clothing was (1) warmth (2) durability (3) value. We had woolly winter vests, thick shirts (sometimes two at once) plus wool jersey - and that was indoors! Every winter morning we used to scrape the frost off the INSIDE of the bedroom window to see what the weather was like. And in ordinary houses, the kitchen with its fire was the only really warm room in winter, and anyway housework was very laborious so housewives kept warm scrubbing / brushing floors etc. My wife's brother-in-law had a thermometer in their (inside) toilet - he recalls it being -4degC one morning. Since central heating came common, clothing is just 'fashion', laborious housework has disappeared and housewives want tropical heat. Bad for the planet and bad for the pocket.

gorm

Funcrusher,
Welcome to the boards, love to post, will watch the space

Qwerty?

Here's some facts for a 2 story block house, open plan downstairs, UFH on both floors, 3500 sq foot and includes tank of hot water 24/7. The house is well insulated. No supplimentary heating system used.

I've geothermal in since December, and got my electrician to put a meter on it in January, so I can have an accurate reading of it's use.

For the last 24hrs it has cost exactly €1.80 (not counting Nightsaver - which would bring it down to about €1.50.
On the 3rd of March, when the ground was covered in snow, and the outside temp was -7 it cost €5.95.


Heres the daily Average for Feb to May so far:-

February €4.53
March €4.10
April €4.33
May €2.50
(again none of these figures include nightsaver - subtract approx 1/4 to get an approx value.)


Call back next Feb. for a yearly costings...:) which I'm hoping to be €1000 or less, which I think is a reasonable price for heating and hot water for this house.

Highway

Hi,
Can you tell us which type of geothermal system you have. Is it the underground, air, or borehole version.

I have been quoted approx €31K for a 2500sq 2 storey block house system including UHT upstairs and downstairs, all plumbing (tanks, sinks, toilets, showers, etc), and a borehole geothermal system, with full 6 year warranty. Does that sound about right compared to your equivalent costs?

Highway.

air

Qwerty, I'd also be interested in hearing:
- The capital cost of your installation
- The air temperature you're maintaining in the house
- The size of your water tank and the temperature you're keeping it at

Not to be pessimistic, but based on those figures it looks like your annual costs will be closer to 1300 or maybe a bit more. Still not bad.
See http://www.met.ie/climate/temperature.asp for details on annual monthly averages.

Funcrusher - do you glean any useful information on heatpumps during your glorious career that you would care to share with us?

Qwerty?

Sorry, I have the Ground loop.
I wouldn't be sure about borehole costs.
My system cost 25k and 1k for digger driver. Plumber was about 850 for toilets, showers etc.

- The capital cost of your installation
25 + 1

- The air temperature you're maintaining in the house
15/16C in unused rooms, and up to 21C in other rooms.

- The size of your water tank and the temperature you're keeping it at
500l with temp around 50C+ halfway up(where the sensor is located)

Also bear in mind these running costs are not including nightsaver - subtract approx 1/4.

air

Cheers Qwerty, 21 is pretty high for underfloor. 500L is a lot of water!
On nightsaver, can someone fill me in on the jazz with it. Is it only supposed to be used for resistive heating loads?
If one was to rig up an automatic transfer switch to switch everything onto the nightsaver at the appropriate time would it be kosher with the board?

Pocari Sweat

Sorry I started another thread on the same issues :

Any advice on Zero Loss Timber Houses and Air Drawn Geothermal ?
I am looking to build a timber frame (stone outer walls) with a zero loss rating and passive heating.

Are there any good zero loss timber frame companies out there that can guarantee decent heat without the need for heating and would a geothermal system be too much heat needed for a zero loss house ?

Also I have seen on my travels around Athlone, houses with air drawn geothermal systems, no water pipes required. The system draws in the ambient heat in air and can work to temps as low as minus 40. Yes -40! How does it perform in Ireland and how much ?



After reading the posts in this thread, I have a bit more to go on.

Does Nordic have any info on geo if used with zero loss timber frame?

Don't go nuts but I am just going to weigh up some maths and see what ye think. If a geo system is put into a zero loss house with a certain floor area, insulation etc and it only needs to be an extra budget of 10,000 versus some form of cheap option like electric mats or gas condenser boiler, then surely that is an extra 1,000 per year to pay off capital costs of buying geothermal and I will sell house within ten years.

Is it probably better to put in underfloor pipes myself and link connections temporarily to other heat source until fuel prices go totally doolally and then sell the house with the option of the new buyer to put in geo?

If fuel prices go doolally, won't the proportional costs go daft for ESB electric generation costs cos they are mainly fossil fuels too?

What about going a bit daft on proper insulation, say spend extra 5,000 than intended and do things like:

1. Attic (usually 20% heat lost in house) - Put in finest wool insulation at 20 inches deep.

2. Walls (usually 40% heat lost in house) - Put in wool again with thicker walls, foil backed 3/4 inch slabs, or that stuff (Paroc?) that Viking recommended.

3. Floor (usually 10% heat lost in house) - Put in 6" of Kingspan, foil etc.

4. Windows (usu 10 - 20% heat loss) - Put in Pilkington K, Infra-red coated ultra reflective, triple glazed, argon filled glazing.

5. Draughts (usu rest of heat loss) - Design door entries with air traps, utility at back and porch at front.

6. Free heat gain - face main window aspect of the house to south and keep windows at minimum to north side.

7. Solar panels - get 33% per square metre grant funding for solar panels and go for extra above usual 6 m2 required for average house.

8. Keep build design to single storey, don't use any concrete if possible - very high heat loss and massively destructive to environment in production.

9. Increase roof overhangs to shade building in summer at high sun angle and allow sun to enter house at lower angle in winter.

10. Use thick black slate for better heat absorption.

11. Don't have any chimneys.

12. Use high efficiency heat recovery system - 85% plus ?

13. In hard water area, use water softener to keep hot water production at peak efficiency. (Massive% heat loss in 9 out of 10 group water schemes in counties such as Galway County and Limerick)

14. Get any verbal claims made by any supplier given in print with verifiable sources. Avoid salesmen that try to secure sales by getting signatures on contracts prior to purchase or that ask for deposits.

15. Follow established trends used in other countries that are leading a technology decades before it arrives in Ireland, or with good long track record.

The above points I am told are fairly essential to avoid losing a load of heat or getting ripped off.

WILKEL

Qwerty? wrote:

Here's some facts for a 2 story block house, open plan downstairs, UFH on both floors, 3500 sq foot and includes tank of hot water 24/7. The house is well insulated. No supplimentary heating system used.

I've geothermal in since December, and got my electrician to put a meter on it in January, so I can have an accurate reading of it's use.

For the last 24hrs it has cost exactly €1.80 (not counting Nightsaver - which would bring it down to about €1.50.
On the 3rd of March, when the ground was covered in snow, and the outside temp was -7 it cost €5.95.


Heres the daily Average for Feb to May so far:-

February €4.53
March €4.10
April €4.33
May €2.50
(again none of these figures include nightsaver - subtract approx 1/4 to get an approx value.)


Call back next Feb. for a yearly costings...:) which I'm hoping to be €1000 or less, which I think is a reasonable price for heating and hot water for this house.

Querty,
great to see someone putting us some actual real world figures on geothermal at last. It sounds like it is working out well for you.
Just one question - what kw is your heat pump ?
the reason i ask is because some systems have very big ones - i seen one 17kw one at the energy show.

Boggle

Just one question - what kw is your heat pump ?

I'd be interested in knowing this too - also how often is it on? (Do you heat the house 24hrs a day or for only a few hours a day...

Seems to be a very high running cost - especially when there was snow on the ground.

Qwerty?

Sorry the tank is 300litres, with a 200l inner chamber.

The pump is 15kw. I leave it run itself, so it kicks in when it needs and circulates to the zones when the stats let it. So if the temp of the circulating water drops below running temp it comes on. It also has an outdoor stat which adjusts the running temp automatically.

Airs question:-
If one was to rig up an automatic transfer switch to switch everything onto the nightsaver at the appropriate time would it be kosher with the board?

Thats what it does.

air

Sweet, I was posing a more general question though - is it permissable to run all loads from nightsaver at night?
Do you happen to know what type of transfer switch it uses?

WILKEL

Qwerty? wrote:

Sorry the tank is 300litres, with a 200l inner chamber.

The pump is 15kw. I leave it run itself, so it kicks in when it needs and circulates to the zones when the stats let it. So if the temp of the circulating water drops below running temp it comes on. It also has an outdoor stat which adjusts the running temp automatically.

Airs question:-
If one was to rig up an automatic transfer switch to switch everything onto the nightsaver at the appropriate time would it be kosher with the board?

Thats what it does.

Thanks for the information - but i still am a bit confused on the costs - if your pump is 15kw and the daily cost of running it in March (for instance) was €4.10 does this mean that the pump was only running for 2 hours per day (if you consider the cost of running a 15kw pump would be about €2.10 per hour.
or have i missed some factor ?

air

Must run for 2hrs a day alright. That would be 30Kwh which if the heatpump has a COP of 4 would be 120Kwh of heat energy per day.
That sounds about right

Qwerty?

Apologies it's a 13kw nibe pump. I don't know how long it runs for per day. The circulating pump runs 24/7 afaik

air wrote:

Sweet, I was posing a more general question though - is it permissable to run all loads from nightsaver at night?
Do you happen to know what type of transfer switch it uses?

Hi Air,
With Nightsaver elec each night from 11pm - 8am wintertime and 12pm-9am summertime all our electricity needs switch to the nightsaver meter. Since Feb we have used 1584 units at nightrate (saving €118).

Our normal standing charge would have been €12.30 but is €21.59 per bill because we have nightsaver.

I think you are thinking of night storage heating which costs €1.23 per bill, but only gives the storage heaters the night rate.

No idea what type of transfer switch it is. It's a digital meter now that they are installing.

air

Yeah, didnt realise there was different tariffs for night storage vs nightsaver. Thanks for the info.

yop

Ours in not running mad long but the electrical cost of running the heatpump is 1.66kw per hour. The pump is a 12kw Heliotherm in a timber frame with UFH installed to run at 35 degrees instead of the "normal" 45 degrees.
Based on Feb, March, April we are looking at a running cost of in or abouts 600 euro per year for the heating and hot water.
In saying that for the hot days last week Wed & Thursday it did not come on at all as the house temp was sufficent. So I do expect the heating cost to decrease for the summer months therefore bringing down the 600 euro costs.

We have ours also on Night rate with a 500l tank. Ours does come on in the evening again from 7-9pm to boost the house.
The advantage with ours I think would be that there is an outside temp gauge linked to the HP so that it can adjust the temp required in the house based on temp outside.
Still learning how exactly to use it but give it 12 months and we will have a full idea.
Installation and HP cost was 12800 euro, digger and sand 1k euro.

Qwerty?

€600 sounds great for a years heating. What size house have you? I take it the €12800 doesn't include the UFH pipes inside?

What temp is the brine coming in at before the Heatpump kicks in and what temp when it has been running for a while? just for comparism

Highway

A proposal i got was to use 2 x 9Kw heat pumps with a bore hole system.
The logic was that the higher temps from a bore hole will need less additional heating, and only one pump will be used unless the demand is required for both pumps. This type system should cut electricity costs a little more. Usually, the single pump will handle summer needs, while the two can combine for the winter months if necessary.

It sounds a sensible approach, until you consider if one 13kwh pump running all year, is more/same efficiency as 6 months with 9kwh, and 6 months with 18kwh, depending on weather, etc.

I was also wondering, on a more basic level, how people decided to go with geothermal over, say, wood pellets. I am sweating over these two options at the moment, and can't convince myself which is a clear winner. I have always been of the opinion that it's better to depend on a type of energy that I can (or soon will be able to) produce myself, rather than one I don't control. I see electricity as being something that I think everyone will be able to produce, with advanced solar panels, and your own wind turbine. These technologies are getting very advanced (see here for breakthrough solar panels for generating power: http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=143&art_id=vn20060211110132138C184427)
and www.surfacepower.com and others, will allow me to make my own electricity.

I can never product wood pellets, oil, gas, etc, myself, so will always be paying for heat.

I understand that heat pumps are very hard on electricity, and wind turbines, etc are not advanced enough to power the pump yet, but i could reduce my ESB bills for everything else. I have been waiting for some clear figures on how much it costs to run a heatpump in "real" life, and the latest info from qwerty is very useful for that, and yop's figures are more encouraging again!

Just wondering what others thought of this logic.
Highway

alfa

yop wrote:

Ours in not running mad long but the electrical cost of running the heatpump is 1.66kw per hour. The pump is a 12kw Heliotherm in a timber frame with UFH installed to run at 35 degrees instead of the "normal" 45 degrees.
Based on Feb, March, April we are looking at a running cost of in or abouts 600 euro per year for the heating and hot water.
In saying that for the hot days last week Wed & Thursday it did not come on at all as the house temp was sufficent. So I do expect the heating cost to decrease for the summer months therefore bringing down the 600 euro costs.

We have ours also on Night rate with a 500l tank. Ours does come on in the evening again from 7-9pm to boost the house.
The advantage with ours I think would be that there is an outside temp gauge linked to the HP so that it can adjust the temp required in the house based on temp outside.
Still learning how exactly to use it but give it 12 months and we will have a full idea.
Installation and HP cost was 12800 euro, digger and sand 1k euro.

Yop,

Would you mind advising on who carried out your installation and the type of installation i.e. bore hole or other.

Apologies if I am asking questions which you have answered previously as the search function is currently disabled and I am looking to get a number of quotes in the next few weeks.

Thanks again

Alfa