Should Man Utd Retire NO.7

The Muppet

Jivin Turkey wrote:

A couple of people have used the example that Pele thought GB was the best ever in support of their argument that GB actually was the best player ever. I don't dispute that this was Pele's opinion or that he is or is not entitled to his opinion.

If you are addressing other peoples point why did you quote me? I,m sure thay can answer for themselves,

Jivin Turkey wrote:

What I implied is that Pele's opinion is irrelevant (supported by his claim that El-Hadji Diouf is one of the best players in the world) yet people (including yourself) seem to think it is because he is one of the most celebrated players ever.

I never said anything of the sort. I tried to explain an analogy that someone appeared to not understand. I did not post my own opinion, in fact in reply to TFTf I conceded the point you are now trying to argue with me over.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Professional footballers don't do the same study/research into their own "profession" as the likes of neuro-surgeons or doctors, hence their opinions are not as valid.

Nobody here studies football in the same way as Neuro surgeons and doctors study for their profession hence all our opinions are not valid.

That has to be one of the most irrational and ill concieved statements I have ever seen here. I will leave it at that, you can argue with yourself if you wish to continue.

cournioni

George Best was also a huge influence on Diego Maradona. I think that and Pele saying that he thought he was the best footballer in the world should say it all.

Mr_Roger_Bongos

Can't believe no one's mentionned Eric Cantona, arguably an equal to Best's footballing mind. Normally clubs retire jersey's when the player leaves the club and is still living, e.g. Maradonna and Baggio, i think Batistuta's got retired for the viola, if utd haven't done it by now, they won't because he's died.

For utd fans the number 7 is a legacy of great players. George Best's name was rarely sung around old trafford, until his death, which may say something about utd fans, but Cantona would be the fans favourite, if they we're going to retire it, it would be for him.

PHB

Cantona is loved by all United supporters, but to suggest that any reasonable United fan would compare him to best is silly.
Firstly cause he was only there for a couple of years
And
Never actually produced it on the european or international stage

If you really wanted someone who United fans could compare with Best for retiring the shirt, it would be Bobby Robson, who is adored by all

Thanx 4 The Fish

PHB wrote:

Cantona is loved by all United supporters, but to suggest that any reasonable United fan would compare him to best is silly.
Firstly cause he was only there for a couple of years
And
Never actually produced it on the european or international stage

If you really wanted someone who United fans could compare with Best for retiring the shirt, it would be Bobby Robson, who is adored by all

When did Bobby Robson play for Manchester United ?

The Muppet

PHB wrote:

Cantona is loved by all United supporters, but to suggest that any reasonable United fan would compare him to best is silly.
Firstly cause he was only there for a couple of years
And
Never actually produced it on the european or international stage

If you really wanted someone who United fans could compare with Best for retiring the shirt, it would be Bobby Robson, who is adored by all

Spot on assuming you mean Bryan Robson.

I don't think too many of us here really seen very much of Best in action , (I have only seen the usual clips) but the out poring of emotion after his death has only really been surpassed By the death of Princess Diana. That has to be an indication of just how special he was and how highly he was regarded by those lucky enough to have witnessed him playing week in week out.

mchurl

The Muppet wrote:

Spot on assuming you mean Bryan Robson.

I don't think too many of us here really seen very much of Best in action , (I have only seen the usual clips) but the out poring of emotion after his death has only really been surpassed By the death of Princess Diana. That has to be an indication of just how special he was and how highly he was regarded by those lucky enough to have witnessed him playing week in week out.

I'm like you and i agree that he was something special but just because pele says he was the greatest ever it doesnt mean that he was. This is an arguement that can never be solved as everyone has their own opinion on who was the greatest ever. IMO it has got to be Francis Benali:p

MrPillowTalk

el rabitos wrote:

did beckham not win a european cup with united too? seems like a major contribution to me, oh and a treble and a few doubles. beckham contributed a major part to uniteds most successful era

just because pele says something, that makes it true? does the world hang on pele's opinion? everyone has an opinion, just because its pele doesnt mean it happens to be true.

the speed that united fans have forgot about beckhams contribution is amazing, when he's dead though he'll be the best player ever and there'll be calls to retire number 7 again

As regards the european cup, can anyone say that Becks was the driving force behind the win? I mean come on Keane has to be credited there for the semi final display against juve, possibly his best performance in a red shirt ever. Becks was part of a great utd team but Best was outstanding in european campaign. It should also be noted that Best played in the era of crunch tackles and hacking players out of the game, if for example he played in the same era as Becks where players are minded a lot more then I have no doubt he would be even better.

As regards Peles comment Im sorry I even brought it up, but I just think comparing Becks to Best is ridiculous, if you were to compare Best to any utd player surely Giggs would be the obvious choice, did everything Becks has but for longer and better.

With respect to forgeting about Becks achievements in my original post I did say he was a great player for utd, and I for one would welcome him back if he came available in the summer.

PHB

I always type Bobby Robson and I've no idea why.
Yeh I meant Bryan Robson

Becks was an incredibly inflential player in the entire season of the treble. He won the same prize that Gerrard won that year. He was without a doubt at the peak of his game, and was incredible for United, so lets not just dismiss him behind Keano. People remember Keano for the CL, but a lot of the prem ties were won because of Beckham,
You remember the CL semi with Keano heading it in, who put the ball into the box

el rabitos

It should also be noted that Best played in the era of crunch tackles and hacking players out of the game, if for example he played in the same era as Becks where players are minded a lot more then I have no doubt he would be even better.

if he played in the current era he'd have been kicked out of man u on his ass for being out of shape. top players in this day and age dont touch alcohol.

u cant compare players of that time with players of today. players today are 5 times the athletes they were back then

blu_sonic

No

el rabitos wrote:

if he played in the current era he'd have been kicked out of man u on his ass for being out of shape. top players in this day and age dont touch alcohol.

u cant compare players of that time with players of today. players today are 5 times the athletes they were back then

thats a lovely hat, so nice that you can talk out of it. aka you are sooooo wrong about footie players drinking, look at the irish national team, all out in lillies when they're over here look at the english team, notorious. seriously.

el rabitos

thats a lovely hat, so nice that you can talk out of it. aka you are sooooo wrong about footie players drinking, look at the irish national team, all out in lillies when they're over here look at the english team, notorious. seriously.

let me just refer u to where i said "TOP PLAYERS"

aka, players that are winners, in top teams, such as man u. those players dont drink more than a glass of whine with their dinner

Jivin Turkey

The Muppet wrote:

If you are addressing other peoples point why did you quote me? I,m sure thay can answer for themselves

Because your post was the latest post at the time of my entrance to the debate that mentioned it.

Why the paranoia?

The Muppet wrote:

I never said anything of the sort.

I wouldn't be so certain......

The Muppet wrote:

Any person at the top of their profession would be better able to judge the abilities of fellow professional better that armchair experts like ourselves.

While you also do say.......

The Muppet wrote:

I tried to explain an analogy that someone appeared to not understand.

Which would indicate that you were possibly just trying to explain his point, however your tone to me indicates that you agree with him. Which is why I said you "seem" to be in agreement. I never stated it as fact.

The Muppet wrote:

I did not post my own opinion, in fact in reply to TFTf I conceded the point you are now trying to argue with me over.

Which I'll admit I didn't see at the time of my first post as it was on the next page, but which I did make reference to myself in my second post.

But just so I have things right here. You agree that Pele's opinion is not the best form of reference as he also rates EHD in his top players of all-time?

I never said he wasn't entitled to his opinion which you basically accussed me of saying.

The Muppet wrote:

Nobody here studies football in the same way as Neuro surgeons and doctors study for their profession hence all our opinions are not valid.

Excuse me. Where did I say anyone did?

I likened comparisons of footballers opinions on matters football and doctors on matters medical as incomparable. A point which you said (all be it claiming that you were just explaining someone elses point to another poster, again apologies if that was the case as to me it came across as you being in agreement with him), and I've quoted above.

The Muppet wrote:

That has to be one of the most irrational and ill concieved statements I have ever seen here.

I'm not surprised, as it came out of your mouth.

The Muppet wrote:

I will leave it at that, you can argue with yourself if you wish to continue.

I've said my piece, you claim you are of the same opinion, perhaps there is nothing left to debate, we'll see what happens.

blu_sonic

No

no i assue you they do beside man utd are no longer a "Top Team"

el rabitos

no i assue you they do beside man utd are no longer a "Top Team"

and with that comment, u showed ur range of football knowledge

blu_sonic

No

not won much for a top team have they???, in fact i think the top team in the uk, (although i might be wrong not supporting the english 1st div) are infact chelsea followed by europen champions liverpool, i think what you might mean is man u WERE a top team, such as shamrock rovers WERE a top team

el rabitos

not won much for a top team have they???, in fact i think the top team in the uk, (although i might be wrong not supporting the english 1st div) are infact chelsea followed by europen champions liverpool, i think what you might mean is man u WERE a top team, such as shamrock rovers WERE a top team

i dont post on eircom league threads because i've no clue what goes on in that league or what the situation is. so i reckon u should stay out of threads involving ANY premiership teams because you've clearly no clue whats going on there man

blu_sonic

No

who are you to tell me where i can or cannot post, as the case maybe i know quite alot about english football having lived there for 2 years and being force feed their game since birth! i used to support leeds for about 15-20 years before i woke up and just realised "whats the point, i've no relation to this team i'm not from leeds nor will i live there" (thats goood for me not intended to be a slur on any supporter of any team irish, english, french, spanish etc.) so seriously. DONT TELL ME WHERE TO POST, ps you never replied to my accusation of Man u

blu_sonic wrote:

not won much for a top team have they???, in fact i think the top team in the uk, (although i might be wrong not supporting the english 1st div) are infact chelsea followed by europen champions liverpool, i think what you might mean is man u WERE a top team, such as shamrock rovers WERE a top team

so apart from having a personal slate at me answer my post

el rabitos

who are you to tell me where i can or cannot post, as the case maybe i know quite alot about english football having lived there for 2 years and being force feed their game since birth! i used to support leeds for about 15-20 years before i woke up and just realised "whats the point, i've no relation to this team i'm not from leeds nor will i live there" (thats goood for me not intended to be a slur on any supporter of any team irish, english, french, spanish etc.) so seriously. DONT TELL ME WHERE TO POST, ps you never replied to my accusation of Man u

ok, dont cry.....first off, i'm a liverpool fan, not a man u fan. so if u cant see that man u are still a top team, then thats ur problem, i'm not here to help u.

secondly, i didnt need ur life story and who u supported and why.

thirdly, according to the charter i'll be banned if i say what i want to say, so i'll just say certain people can bring u down to a certain level and beat u with experince, YOU have beaten me.

blu_sonic

No

what kind of babble is this? i didn't know it was a competition, beat me beat you beat this? are you making omlettes?

cry? i'm "crying" because you have a nerve to sujest that i should limit myself to posting on certain topics, seeing as i started this thread, i feel i can post in it, oh and by your rational you support liverpool you have no right to post on a man utd thread, what nonsence,

el rabitos wrote:

secondly, i didnt need ur life story and who u supported and why.

unfortunitly i had to "justify" my football supporting credentials to "proove" i was "qualified" to post here

el rabitos wrote:

thirdly, according to the charter i'll be banned if i say what i want to say, so i'll just say certain people can bring u down to a certain level and beat u with experince, YOU have beaten me.

i've no idea what this means, you've strayed far from football.

grow up, there is little need to be personal in your post ie.

el rabitos wrote:

ok, dont cry.....

el rabitos wrote:

i reckon u should stay out of threads involving ANY premiership teams because you've clearly no clue whats going on there man

ps. i admit this post:

blu_sonic wrote:

thats a lovely hat, so nice that you can talk out of it

could be construid as personal and if it caused off3ence i'm truly sorry, it was ment as a joke but in light of where you brought the topic it could be seen as offensive

PHB

It all depends on what you mean by top obviously, and since you never gave a clear definiton of your view, its kinda irrelevent.
That said, in the common perception, i.e. one of the best teams in the country, United would be there.
In a specific top team, obviously it'd be Chelsea.
Even the most ardent Liverpool fans wouldn't argue that they are better than Man Utd atm

Thanx 4 The Fish

At the moment actually it would be very easy to say we are better than Man U. Six wins out of six, pool are top of the form league, third in prem to man u but not by much, and have the second best GD in the prem with qualification for CL phase wrapped up, are European cup holders, European super cup winners and In for the world club championships.

I would have to say that at the moment liverpool are better. Over the past 10-15 years I would have to say that Man u are better.

hullaballoo

Although the idea of retiring No. 7 is a nice thought, I don't think Besty donned it for long enough to warrant its decommissioning, especially not now, so long after he last wore it.

Besides, I think people have expressed their condolensces amply by this stage. There's no need to overegg the pudding.

MrPillowTalk

el rabitos wrote:

top players in this day and age dont touch alcohol.

hillarious ............... absolute bull............ but hillarious none the less!

Im not even going to start listing the stories of top players as I dont know where to begin.

Ok just one, let me just say that I doubt any "roasting" went on whilst sober as a judge

garred

Hav'nt read the whole thread but with regard to retiring the jersey...absolutely not. There have been other great no. 7's for United: Beckham, Cantona, no player has devine right to call a number on a jersey his. There will always be someone better that will come along. Sure Best was a great player, although I was'nt growing up in his era. Personally I think Ronaldinho, Maradonna, Platini were far better players than Best. Thats probably because I have grown up with them and only see Best from "highlighted clips" so it may be unfair to judge.

blu_sonic

No

well how ironic that it was benfica (best finest hour) putting utd out of champs league?


ps. fish i agree totally with you on form liverpool are a far better tam utd were the better team for about 12 years, but your only as good as you last game and seeing as utd are obviously on a steady decline i'd have to say they are no longer a "top team" for imo there is 2 top teams in brittan, chelsea and liverpool, league champs and euro champs, all in all remember liverpool may not have been seeting their domestic scene alight but uefa cup/super cup/chams league all in a few short seasons says a lot for them on the grander scale of football.