Bertie Ahern's Stammer!

MontgomeryClift

The Irish Times, I was glad too see, today alluded to something I've suspected for a long time: That Bertie Ahern's stammer is a ruse, an act. When he gets excited in response to a question, like he did yesterday, he loses his concentration and becomes quite articulate, losing the "harmless oul' fella, man of the people" veneer that has served him so well. So did you ever suspect, or do you believe, that Bertie Ahern's stammer really is false?

gaf1983

I'd say it was genuine - I don't see how anybody, politician or otherwise could keep up such an act for such a long time. Where in the Times did it allude that? People can go on courses to get rid of their stammer, maybe that's what Bertie did.

segadreamcast

A miracle of Gareth Gates-esque proportions...

meldrew

Its not his stammer that bothers me its the obtuse way he answers questions maybe the stammer is his way of giving himself time to think before he answers

MontgomeryClift

It was in yesterday's Dáil Sketch, referring to Wednesday's Leader's Questions. I know it's hard to believe that somebody could put on an act, but to me it's always seemed part of a larger act involving dodging questions, stammering, furrowing the brow to make himself look harmless and finally a shrug of the shoulders as if to say "Sure what can I do?" Usually people stammer when excited or nervous; but when somebody stammers out of habit and becomes articulate when excited, one can only be suspicious.

I suppose the real question is: If somebody alters their mannerisms in order to hoodwink people into thinking he's harmless, then how un-harmless is he really, and how deep does the deception go?

Ajnag

Berties mild in comparision to willie O'dea.

I dont doubt that O'dea has a stutter, just its a very convienient stutter for him. When it's his turn to talk theres very little stuttering on his part, but when his opponent speaks wham bang loud as hell he starts, convieniently sounding out his oppenents arguements.

See for yourselves next time he's on primetime or q&a.

copacetic

MontgomeryClift wrote:

It was in yesterday's Dáil Sketch, referring to Wednesday's Leader's Questions. I know it's hard to believe that somebody could put on an act, but to me it's always seemed part of a larger act involving dodging questions, stammering, furrowing the brow to make himself look harmless and finally a shrug of the shoulders as if to say "Sure what can I do?" Usually people stammer when excited or nervous; but when somebody stammers out of habit and becomes articulate when excited, one can only be suspicious.

I suppose the real question is: If somebody alters their mannerisms in order to hoodwink people into thinking he's harmless, then how un-harmless is he really, and how deep does the deception go?

Isn't a lot of stammering from self conciousness? When you get into a flow or don't have time to think of what you are saying it would make sense to me that you would stammer less, you would certainly see that stammering would tend to affect the start of a persons speech more so that the middle of sentences (assuming the stammer wasn't too bad)

For instance I have a friend who gets a stammer depending on who he speaks to and particularly when speaking to new people has a bad stammer, which isn't apparent when talking to friends or when talking about things he knows very well..

Maskhadov

Never mind the dodgy stammer... what about the effort he made of writing in George Best tribute at the FAI ? He got 1/2 the words spelt wrong and it was nothing short of a national humilation

segadreamcast

*shrug* he spells as he talks...it's embarrassing and a funny story but, much like the George Bush 'door-pull' incident, it's a non-issue. I wish people wouldn't trivialise/tabloidise politics like that, especially the Times - running it as their front page story! For shame.

MontgomeryClift

But this is more of it: You see this kind of ignorance, bordering on stupidity, is what George W. Bush practices, and he got re-elected over a much smarter man. I'm not saying they make up the mannerisms and practice in front of a mirror at being stupid, but it serves them to come across as stupid and harmless in order to seem inoffensive. People tend to resent and envy smart men, so it pays to be a bit dim, like "He couldn't take an £80,000 bribe. Sure he's stupid." "It can't be his fault that sick people are left lying in hospital corridors because he's a nice harmless oul' man. He wouldn't let that happen." etc.

meldrew

Totally agree , its all part of his public persona

'sure he's harmless give him your vote' . Compare him with McDowell and his image and Bertie would win hands down anytime , but in speeches and interviews who comes across as the more intelligent and articulate , Mcdowell of course . Haughey was right when he called him ' the most cunning and ruthless of them all'

Maskhadov

All the northern protestants love Mc DOWELL BTW.

I dont fall for the ".. i never got a chance at school lads" rountine that Bertie goes with. He might be as corrupt as the rest of the idiots in government

junkyard

It just goes to show what kind of people vote for Bertie Aherne in the first place, what with all these fake degree's flying around the place and now we find out that he can't even spell, I can see now why they make the voting papers so easy to use for the loyal FF followers all they have to do is tick the box. That's tick without the H Bertie!:D

segadreamcast

junkyard wrote:

Bertie Aherne,

fake degree's flying around the place

Yeah, imagine judging somebody for their spelling mistakes...

Cork

junkyard wrote:

we find out that he can't even spell

Not everyboby win spelling Bs.

Bad spelling and grammer annoy some - personally I believe life is too short.

Pigman II

I suspect the same thing about comedian Daragh O'Briain and his '......aaaaaahhhh....' ing ever 3seconds.

He seems to have cute-hoor playing the grinning gombeen (for our 'benefit') down to an artform.

stevenmu

I used to have a similar stammer, and still do the odd time. It was caused by thinking too far ahead or thinking of different ways of saying something at the same time. The part of your brain responsible for speech loses track of where it is and there's a stammer while it figures out what it's meant to be saying. I'd imagine it's something similar with Bertie, he's probably trying to answer questions, while in his head he's runnning through whatever he's about to say to make sure it's ok. When you lose your temper you don't really plan what you're saying, hence no stammer.

junkyard

I'd be the first one to admit I'm not top in my class at spelling but I wouldn't have the brass neck to try and run a country with a fake degree.

J.R.HARTLEY

MontgomeryClift wrote:

It was in yesterday's Dáil Sketch, referring to Wednesday's Leader's Questions. I know it's hard to believe that somebody could put on an act, but to me it's always seemed part of a larger act involving dodging questions, stammering, furrowing the brow to make himself look harmless and finally a shrug of the shoulders as if to say "Sure what can I do?" Usually people stammer when excited or nervous; but when somebody stammers out of habit and becomes articulate when excited, one can only be suspicious.

I suppose the real question is: If somebody alters their mannerisms in order to hoodwink people into thinking he's harmless, then how un-harmless is he really, and how deep does the deception go?

of course berties harmless, sure he climbed every tree in north county dublin looking for evidence against rambo and all he had to do was take a trip to the city council, or sit in on a tribunal hearing.

meldrew

meldrew wrote:

maybe the stammer is his way of giving himself time to think before he answers

Hmmm.

I've actually spoken to Proinsias de Rossa and he has been completely stammer free.

On the basis of your theory, one could argue that good old Frank used to give himself a good 15 minutes to think over any question...just how did he hold down so many jobs on three full sentences a day?

Ray777

Personally, I'm not too bothered by Bertie Ahern's stammer, or even inability to pronounce de simplest words properly. What worries me more, is his arrogance towards anybody who confronts him in the Dáil. Recently, Pat Rabbitte was questioning him on the government's failure to provide the increase in fleet capacity, as promised to Dublin Bus. Bertie Ahern's contemptuous reply was that Rabbitte was "moaning about a couple of broken buses". There are countless other examples of this kind of dismissive arrogance, not only from Bertie Ahern, but from Fianna Fail TDs in general (remember Conor Lenihan's ridiculous 'Kebabs' comment?). It just seems that, when faced with somebody who is clearly intellectually superior (Rabbitte, Higgins, etc), the Taoiseach and his ministers have no option but to drag parliamentary debate into the gutter, or failing that, the playground.

Ray777

Ray777 wrote:

somebody who is clearly intellectually superior (Rabbitte, Higgins, etc)

If grumbling about the price of a loaf of bread and bin taxes and not really doing much of note is what passes for intelligence these days, those two are goliaths of the intellectual world. Is moaning and gnashing teeth but achieving nothing the new test for IQ?

Ray777

Deleted User wrote:

If grumbling about the price of a loaf of bread and bin taxes and not really doing much of note is what passes for intelligence these days, those two are goliaths of the intellectual world. Is moaning and gnashing teeth but achieving nothing the new test for IQ?

Yes, that's the kind of arrogant, issue-dodging dismissiveness, I was talking about.

Seriously though, Fianna Fail is genuinely lacking in eloquent parliamentarians at the moment. Their current penchant for jeering from the back and making childish off-hand remarks, more suited to a football pitch than the Oireachtas, is seriously ill-becoming of the main party of government.

Ray777

Ray777 wrote:

It just seems that, when faced with somebody who is clearly intellectually superior (Rabbitte, Higgins, etc), the Taoiseach and his ministers have no option but to drag parliamentary debate into the gutter, or failing that, the playground.

Ray777 wrote:

arrogant, issue-dodging dismissiveness

MontgomeryClift

Ray777 wrote:

What worries me more, is his arrogance towards anybody who confronts him in the Dáil. Recently, Pat Rabbitte was questioning him on the government's failure to provide the increase in fleet capacity, as promised to Dublin Bus. Bertie Ahern's contemptuous reply was that Rabbitte was "moaning about a couple of broken buses". There are countless other examples of this kind of dismissive arrogance, not only from Bertie Ahern, but from Fianna Fail TDs in general (remember Conor Lenihan's ridiculous 'Kebabs' comment?). It just seems that, when faced with somebody who is clearly intellectually superior (Rabbitte, Higgins, etc), the Taoiseach and his ministers have no option but to drag parliamentary debate into the gutter, or failing that, the playground.

Yes, there's that. Regarding archaeological controversies (Tara/M3 etc.) he said that archaeology was "the fastest growing profession in the country" and that it was just "a row about who was there 5,000 years ago." - in other words saying that people hadn't a right to have an opinion on those matters because they weren't qualified, which is a bold statement from someone who was Minister for Finance even though he knew nothing about finance and had his speeches written by David McWilliams. It's especially rich when you consider that the Department of the Environment's chief archaeologist has nothing but a BA and was chosen over applicants with PhDs and field experience.

I took his stammer to be part of the package of arrogance. If you're asked a serious question, you should answer it seriously. It's sheer bad manners to sigh and stammer and mumble off a few irrelevant statistics as if answering a stupid question that's been put to you by a child, yet that's what Bertie Ahern does at Leader's Questions.

MontgomeryClift

MontgomeryClift wrote:

I took his stammer to be part of the package of arrogance. If you're asked a serious question, you should answer it seriously. It's sheer bad manners to sigh and stammer and mumble off a few irrelevant statistics as if answering a stupid question that's been put to you by a child, yet that's what Bertie Ahern does at Leader's Questions.

Again, I reiterate if you believe a stammer is arrogance, de Rossa must think himself leader of the Universe...

Ray777

Deleted User wrote:

Again, I reiterate if you believe a stammer is arrogance, de Rossa must think himself leader of the Universe...

De Rossa has a natural stammer, which affects some words more than others. He controls it very well though, and is a very good speaker. I don't think Bertie Ahern has a proper stammer at all. He just says "Eh, Eh, Eh..." far too much, when he's thinking of what to say. And he's not the only one. The standard of speech in Dáil Eireann is generally appalling when compared to the British parliament. If Tony Blair was to speak as poorly as Bertie Ahern during PMQs, he'd be laughed out of Westminster.

MontgomeryClift

Richard Bruton's (FG) Simpsons analogies in his Budget response during the week - So awkward and cringe-worthy.

About the stammer (again): A real stammer like De Rossa's has that WTF quality about it. He's talking normally then suddenly he's stammering and you get a bit of a shock. Most stammers are like that. Bertie Ahern's doesn't have it.

staple

Unlike most of you, I think Bertie's bad English is largely due to him being quite unintelligent in many ways, deeply confused, and utterly lacking in intellectual rigour. He may be cunning, but there's a difference between vulpine scheming and the ability to develop a vision for the state and drive it forward. Much as I dislike McDowell, he is at least has the ability to think and reason.

Does anyone know of a compilation of Bertie's best/worst run ins with the complexities of the English language? Take this mild example from the weekend "This is just a bizarre twist ... that takes some twist of even my imagination": What does he mean? 'Leap of the imagination' is the idiom we recommend to learners of English. "Twisted imagination" implies neurosis.

He may not be as bad as Bush for real howlers, but he must match him for nonsense. Anyone compiled a list?

staple

staple wrote:

'lacking in intellectual rigour'
'vulpine scheming'
'the complexities of the English language?'
'the idiom we recommend to learners of English'

You heap smart. You smarter den John Banville, and you make better leader for our tribe...