Missing Diver in Wexford

scuby

Anyone have an update on the missing diver in wexford, following the sinking of the fishing boat during the week off Kilmore Quay.

Borzoi

www.breakingnews.ie wrote:

A massive search for a diver who went missing while looking for the lost captain of a lobster boat off the coast of Wexford resumed today amid bad weather conditions.

It is now feared the capsizing of the fishing boat, Rising Son, on Tuesday off the Wexford coast may have claimed the lives of two people on board and the search diver.

One of two civilian divers, Billy O’Connor, failed to return from a dive to look for the body of skipper of the capsized vessel, Patrick Colfer, 37, from Slade.

The other diver lost visual contact during the dive at 3.25pm yesterday with his colleague when he was coming up, just seven metres from the surface.

The two men, who were both experienced divers, managed to confirm that the wreck off the Great Saltee Island was the Rising Son and that the body of Mr Colfer was not inside.

The coast guard operation has already resumed searching south of the Saltee Islands and along the coast between Carnsore Point and Fethard.

“Conditions are not good down there this morning. We have seas over two metres, we have strong winds, visibility is improving now as it gets bright. We had to curtail the search after three o’clock this morning after heavy rain and bad search conditions,” Eamonn Torpay, search and rescue manager with the Irish Coastguard, said.

“It is two separate incidents but it is one big search because the search area is almost the same.

“We use search computer systems equipment to predict the search area, the two search areas would be the same almost now. So we are searching for tragically missing Pat Colfer and now diver Billy O’Connor.”
.

Hopefully he just spent a bad night on the surface

smcmullan

Its a tragic set of events. My sympathies go out to all involved.

There's some pretty good reporting on:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1202/wexford.html

It's well worth listening and viewing the radio and TV reports at the bottom to get an understanding of the nature and circumstances of the dive. Ditto the Related Stories.

CJhaughey

I wonder what the outcome of this terrible event will be?
I feel that the use of civilian divers for this type of dive is not really suitable, 158ft is beyond recreational diving limits and the use of rebreathers is questionable.
I can understand that the use of Civilian divers in situations where large areas of ground need to be covered but in deep water I feel that trained Saturation divers are the only safe way for work to be performed.
My sincere condolences to the families involved.

Peace

CJhaughey wrote:

I wonder what the outcome of this terrible event will be?
I feel that the use of civilian divers for this type of dive is not really suitable, 158ft is beyond recreational diving limits and the use of rebreathers is questionable.

What is wrong with using a rebreather? When you are going deep (70m+) the only way to do it is either with twin 15's or bigger... or use a rebreather.

CJhaughey wrote:

I can understand that the use of Civilian divers in situations where large areas of ground need to be covered but in deep water I feel that trained Saturation divers are the only safe way for work to be performed.

This was not a saturation dive so no need for sat divers. Assuming the diver has the training to go to depth then i see no problem using recreational/technical divers for search and recovery.

CJhaughey

Peace wrote:

This was not a saturation dive so no need for sat divers. Assuming the diver has the training to go to depth then i see no problem using recreational/technical divers for search and recovery.

The problem is one missing presumed dead diver.
The navy is bringing it's Sat unit up from Cork to use in the Recovery operation.

Voodoo2

CJhaughey wrote:

158ft is beyond recreational diving limits a

Depends on what organisation you were trained with 158 feet = 48.1584 meters the CMAS Recreational diving limit is 52Mtrs

Im not digging at you CJhaughey just saying this to everyone, what happened that diver could have happened to any diver diving in even in 10mtrs, what happened was unfortunate and will happen again but the use of recreational/technical divers will always be used unless the diving organisations (PADI>CMAS) put restrictions an what we can do for diving,

Peace

CJhaughey wrote:

The problem is one missing presumed dead diver.

Although the loss of a recovery diver is tragic, and my thoughts go out to his family, the fact is it could have happened on any 50m dive. The cause of the accident should be established before making any decisions regarding civiliand divers being used in search and recovery operations.

Voodoo2

The coast guard are understandably restricting civilian divers as they are controlling the SAR operations there and feel responsible for the divers, naval divers are trained in SAR and tend to distance themselves from any personal involvement in the operations and people involved, on the news it said the divers who want to help out are personally connected to the diver so i think this might blind them from the dangers involved in the SAR OP's

Its just my view on it anyway, im both a Coastguard member and a Recreational diver, i have seen it many a time on searches when family and friends get involved they take unnessory risks when we are searching, they mean well but its can lead to many accidents,

My thoughts are also with the Family and friends of the diver!

Orbital

Just a comment, could some one tell me how much training and experience the Irish navy divers have in SAR. It is news to me that they have a team of deep water divers trained and on stand by. How come it is the Garda Underwater unit that seems to be at all other SAR operations. Also the Garda Underwater unit is under funded and are not experienced or equipped for deep sea recovery operations. On the other hand a number of civilian divers are well equipped and experienced in deep water dives, most of these dives are wrecks and need a steady nerve to execute the dive safely. This unfortunate diver was one of the most experienced SAR divers in that area. We should remember that both divers did the dive sucessfully they found the wreck and established that the missing fisherman was not on board. Only on the final stops did the incident happen which could quite easily being epuipment malfunction. We should wait and see what the cause was. Civilan SAR divers are often called in to do searches and due to their time and effort many people have being recovered. CFT have a SAR course and as far as I know PADI have as well.

CJhaughey

Orbital
Are you inferring that the Naval service training and facilities are inferior to CFT/PADI trained Search and rescue divers?
I am incredulous at the thought of this.
The Navy has it's own recompression chamber in Haulbowline.
I feel that this is one of the problems with using civilians in these circumstances , many tech divers are proficient but there is a big difference in being proficient in going to depth and taking a few pictures or maybe stripping a wreck of portholes and searching for a body on a wreck.
PADI and CFT courses are only that, courses, a Navy diver is doing a Job.

Peace

CJhaughey wrote:

Orbital
Are you inferring that the Naval service training and facilities are inferior to CFT/PADI trained Search and rescue divers?
I am incredulous at the thought of this.
The Navy has it's own recompression chamber in Haulbowline.
I feel that this is one of the problems with using civilians in these circumstances , many tech divers are proficient but there is a big difference in being proficient in going to depth and taking a few pictures or maybe stripping a wreck of portholes and searching for a body on a wreck.
PADI and CFT courses are only that, courses, a Navy diver is doing a Job.

CJHaughey,

You seem adamant that civilian divers are not prepared enough to conduct SAR operations. Have you done SAR training yourself? If so perhaps you could enlighten us to the weaknesses that are present in the training sylabus and point out how those weaknesses are dealt with in the NAVY SAR training.

I myself have not undergone any training in SAR.

annR

I'm not an expert but I sure as hell wouldn't want to be involved in a deep dive body search on the strength of a PADI SAR course . . . not that I've taken one but I'd be surprised if it would be sufficient given what I know of other PADI courses.
Having said that, it is true what Orbital said that civilian divers often help with SAR ops, but I would imagine that the conditions and risks to the divers are carefully assessed according to their experience and training.
No one really knows what the cause of this accident was but the fact that the Navy divers didn't dive suggests to me that the conditions are hazardous. I wouldn't want to speculate anymore than that on what happened here as nobody knows.

CJhaughey

I never said that civilian divers should not be involved in SAR operations.
What I said was *I can understand that the use of Civilian divers in situations where large areas of ground need to be covered but in deep water I feel that trained Saturation divers are the only safe way for work to be performed.*
And as for PADI SAR training I was about to say the same thing as AnnR but she beat me to it.
I fully support the use of dive clubs involvement in SaR ops but I would draw the line in allowing Civilians to dive in deep water when there is possible emotional involvement,as judgement can be blurred.
The facts so far is that Rebreathers were used which allow very little if any room for error, one turn of the o2 valve = instant blackout.
I would be very surprised if there is not a big overview of the use of civilian divers in Sar situations after this incident.

Peace

PM sent CJhaughey.

I hope the bodies of both men are recovered without further incident.

Orbital

CJ are you a rebreather diver?
Can you tell us about the qualifications of the navy divers? These professionals who are so experienced they would not be emotional.
I cannot see the Irish Goverment having a well equipped deep sea dive team ready in the navy. If so how come I have not heard of them on SAR operations before.

I trained through CFT and am a SAR diver and did Technical Diver and Open Circuit Trimix with IANTD. I thought that was "Saturation Diving".

If the diver went back down to the wreck, then a search as quickly as possible was needed for him. Civilan divers would have searched the following day.

Peace I agree completely with you and if the exclusion order is lifted civilian divers will be back this weekend.

Paddy Diver

Hi new to here so go easy,
The reason the naval divers havent been diving is because they dont have a recom chamber, I know they own one but its gone for a service so there's none in the naval base, and no they dont have deep sat systems, the ARW have equipment for that depth but they wouldn't be going in there. As for using sat divers, there wouldn't be any need, commerical air divers work to a depth of 50m and the wreck is at 47m so no need, what commerical would have over rec diver is the fact that their supplied from the surface and are in constant contact via comms and they can be recoveryed via the ambicial if needs be.
The Irish Lights Ship the Granuaile is heading to or is on-site now, that has a "multi-beem" sonar system which can pick out a coke can on the bottom so thats the best course now to take, failing that a trawling of the wider sites with trawlers will have to be done, the area is firstly to big to search with diver and secondly to tidal to search.

All the best,
Ian

Voodoo2

People no matter how we look at it, Untill the diver and skipper are found everything possible is being done, even if there is an exclusion zone put in by the coast guards, there are locals searching beaches cliffs etc and rec divers diving in places outside the exclusion zone. the coast guard need all the help they can get but, unfortunatly it comes downs to insurance at the end of the day, Health and safety and all that crap, god knows we have to put up with it enough, the coastguard dont want civilians diving but everyone know there prob are! I hope some news appears soon!

scuby

Hopefully for the families, that the bodies are found so that they can at least bury them, and have a grave to visit.

Culchie

Just a quick question (I've no diving knowledge).

What are 'unfavourable sea conditions' as such.

Is it the fact that debris is thrashing around the wreck that prevents them from diving? Currents?

Just wanted a 'laymans' explanation of what prevents a dive one day, but is OK the next day.

CJhaughey

Usually rough conditions at the surface would be the biggest problem.
It makes retrieving a diver hazardous as the diver is in the water and the boat retrieving him/her is moving rapidly from the motion of the sea.
Strong tides can also be problematic but they can be planned to dive at slack water or when the flow is least.

Mick F

CJhaughey wrote:

The facts so far is that Rebreathers were used which allow very little if any room for error, one turn of the o2 valve = instant blackout.

Emmm....nope.

As a matter of fact you get several warnings of low 02 on a CCR, both audio and visual on the particular model that was used on the dive in question. You have time to sort it out even if you have somehow turned the 02 off, it isn't instant blackout or anything like it.

While CCR can bring it's own problems, including things like CO2 buildup and breakthrough, this isn't one of them.

annR

I must say I know nothing about Rebreathers and the only use for them I know is if you're trying to creep up on wildlife. In what other circumstances would they be used? Obviously for depth but I don't understand how that works. Aren't you still breathing air?

Paddy Diver

I no expert so feel free to correct he here.
People use rebreathers for all reasons, they want to go deep, stay longer, less deco, feel safer, provides warm breathing gas, weight etc etc its endless. The idea is that you have a cylinder of oxygen and a bottle of dilutant, say air (or Helium for deep diving), the rebreather now gives you the highest mix of oxygen for the depth your at, so you can stay longer and/or reduce deco they/you have to do.
If you were using air as a dilutant gas, then on a dive say to 35metres the unit would deliver a oxygen rich mix so your now breathing nitrox not air.

People who do deep diving on rebreathers often have slighter longer bottom times because the unit give them more oxygen that there Open Circuit friends who have a pre-dertermined oxygen mix, anyway they'll have the same deco with the longer bottom times and that's why it appeals to people.


Hope this has helped,

Ian

Peace

annR wrote:

Obviously for depth but I don't understand how that works. Aren't you still breathing air?

Hey Ann,

The thing with a rebreather is that you are always recycling you gas (Air/Nitrox/Trimix etc). The gas goes into a loop (counter lungs & scrubber & hose) and stays there. The scrubber is removing the CO2 as this gas is poisonous.

So if you compare with Open Circuit you inhale a lung full of gas from your tanks and exhale and it all goes to the surface. Even though there is still something like 17% oxygen in it, not to mention the helium (if you're using trimix). In a rebreather when you exhale little or none of it goes to the surface. The CO2 is removed and the gas is recirculated. Its also where it gets the name 'Closed Circuit' from.

Thats why a rebreather only need small cylinders (say 3ltr bottles) as you are only topping up the gas in the loop.

Rebreather divers get a huge advantage when going deep. I did a 70m dive this season carry twin 12's and 2x7ltr stages. I only had enough gas to safely return from a 22minute bottom time and a 70-80minute total dive time (give or take). The rebreather guys were limited by the amount of time they wanted to do in the water i.e. how cold they wanted to get. I think they did either 25 or 30minutes on bottom. When the guys got back from the dive they typically had not used more than 40bar (maybe less) from each of their 3ltr cylinders. Where as i had used over 100bar from my twin 12's and similar figures from both my stages.

The major restricting factor on a rebreather is the scrubber time. It varies from rebreather types and water temperature but an Inpiration usually has about 3hours of scrubber before the Sofnolime needs to be replaced.

There was an interesting article written by a diver who spent maybe 30minutes lost and trapped inside a wreck recently. He was on a rebreather and while he was sitting lost inside the wreck he realised he could potentially stay alive down there for a few hours. He did not relish the prospect of waiting a few hours trapped in a dark room waiting to die and eventually found his way out an lived to write the article. If he was on open circuit he would almost certainly not have had enough gas for the length of time he was inside the wreck as it was a deep dive.

annR

Peace

I already understand what the basic notion of a rebreather is. The only use I ever heard for it before is to creep up on critters by not scaring them with your bubbles.

However if you are still breathing air, how does recycling it enable you to go deeper or stay longer on deep dives?

People who do deep diving on rebreathers often have slighter longer bottom times because the unit give them more oxygen that there Open Circuit friends who have a pre-dertermined oxygen mix, anyway they'll have the same deco with the longer bottom times and that's why it appeals to people

.

But you can't use a higher concentration of 02 on deep dives because it gets toxic. It will just reduce the deco time.

Does it just increase your bottom time because of the increased supply of air? But surely you still have to go up because of your nitrogen concentrations, and can only take advantage of fine tuning your 02 during deco?

I can see how the o2 thing would be useful for longer bottom times on shallower dives, but it hardly seems worth have a rebreather for some extra time when you could just use nitrox open circuit. They're very expensive aren't they.

Peace

annR wrote:

However if you are still breathing air, how does recycling it enable you to go deeper or stay longer on deep dives?

But you can't use a higher concentration of 02 on deep dives because it gets toxic. It will just reduce the deco time.

Say for a 20m dive you use EAN 36, for something a little deeper use EAN 32 etc etc. You're getting the benefits of higher O2 and less Nitrogen. Thats pretty simple open circuit - one dive one gas.

On a rebreather you can adjust the gas you are breathing.
0-6m Pure O2
6-8m EAN 80 (start adding in dilutent and reducing the O2 %)
So at each level of the dive you're getting the best mix to breath at that depth therefore reducing you're nitrogen loading. Do this all the way down and all the way back up and you can see you're decompression penalty will be greatly reduced over an open circuit diver that only has one single gas for the whole dive.

you're right about O2 being toxic at depth so you would reduce the O2 % on the way down and increase it on the way back up.

annR wrote:

Does it just increase your bottom time because of the increased supply of air? But surely you still have to go up because of your nitrogen concentrations, and can only take advantage of fine tuning your 02 during deco?

The increase in bottom time comes from gas managment requirements being reduced drastically and you're decompression penalty being reduced.

annR wrote:

but it hardly seems worth have a rebreather for some extra time when you could just use nitrox open circuit.

Yep, not many people buy a rebreather for shallow diving.

annR wrote:

They're very expensive aren't they.

Not at all, they're a snip ranging from (new) €6,000/7,000 - €15,000.:eek:

However if you're doing deep diving and using trimix... CCR becomes a cost effective method of diving.

Say on a deep dive you use 35% Helium in your twin 12's - cost of the fill is maybe 60euro(depending on the price of helium which is increasing every year). And that only really does you for one dive.

The running costs of a rebreather are cheap after the inital outlay. You might only use 10 euro's worth of gas and scrubber (sonfolime) on the same dive an open circuit divers blow out 50euro in helium bubbles. :eek: :eek:

By the way, i'm not a rebreather qualified diver... but hopefully will be soon as i'm doing the TDI Inspiration Module 1 course over xmas.

Mick F

Peace wrote:

By the way, i'm not a rebreather qualified diver... but hopefully will be soon as i'm doing the TDI Inspiration Module 1 course over xmas.

Best of luck Peace. Enjoy.

Who ya doing it with?

NordicDiver

With me dunno who the instructor is

Peace

Mick F wrote:

Best of luck Peace. Enjoy.

Who ya doing it with?

YBOD... although eventually i think i would prefer to buy a KISS.

NordicDiver

Peace wrote:

i would prefer to buy a KISS.

:eek: hope your girlfriend don't know about this site,.,.,

Paddy Diver

Just heard they have found his body very close to the wreck.



Ian

Peace

Paddy Diver wrote:

Just heard they have found his body very close to the wreck.



Ian

Which body did they find Ian?

Paddy Diver

Peace wrote:

Which body did they find Ian?

Billy O'Connor's, the diver. Thoughts are with the family.



Ian

Voodoo2

Story Confirmed http://www.breakingnews.ie/2005/12/11/story234506.html

At least its piece of mind for the family, may he rest in peace

Borzoi

Voodoo2 wrote:

At least its piece of mind for the family, may he rest in peace

Amen

Mick F

Rest In Peace