irish ferries

ronbyrne2005

i think irish ferries ceo eamonn rothwell should get the entrepreneur of the year award for lowering the labour cost of his business in such a novel way.its this sort of entrpreneurial spirit that makes ireland a bastion of capitalism,laissez faire.

Devon

...or branded with a hot iron for exploitation...

Zebra3

And the Indo should also pick up some sort of award for balanced journalism. :rolleyes:

meldrew

It seems now they wont even get Latvians to do the jobs because they paid more on german and scandinavian ferries

ratboy

i agree, al businesses should lose all their customers and decrease their salaries, genius.

Cork

Only for FF introducing the mimimum wage - many more in this country would be explioted.

flogen

Cork wrote:

Only for FF introducing the mimimum wage - many more in this country would be explioted.

Well that's just the problem, the Irish minimum wage means sweet FA for Irish Ferries workers because the ship is flagged for the bahama's or some place like that, it really has nothing to do with FF's "a lot done", the Irish minimum wage becomes a joke when loopholes like the one Irish Ferries is exploiting exist.

segadreamcast

flogen wrote:

Well that's just the problem, the Irish minimum wage means sweet FA for Irish Ferries workers because the ship is flagged for the bahama's or some place like that, it really has nothing to do with FF's "a lot done", the Irish minimum wage becomes a joke when loopholes like the one Irish Ferries is exploiting exist.

Cork's point was that, if this rule wasn't introduced, there would be many more similar cases on land...? I think (s)he understands the problem at hand, as any person without their head in the sand would at this stage...

It's kinda sad the way the masses seem to be laying the blame at the feet of Bertie et al, since this was just an unforeseen loophole...

flogen

NoelRock wrote:

Cork's point was that, if this rule wasn't introduced, there would be many more similar cases on land...? I think (s)he understands the problem at hand, as any person without their head in the sand would at this stage...

It's kinda sad the way the masses seem to be laying the blame at the feet of Bertie et al, since this was just an unforeseen loophole...

I'm not blaming bertie, it was an unforeseen loophole, and who would expect an Irish company to ditch its Irish staff and hire the modern equivalent to slaves? It would be (and is proving to be) economic suicide. I'm not sure if much is being done in the way of plugging this loophole, although I'm pretty sure it's not something the Irish government can do alone, and must be done on a European or even International level.
I'm not suggesting that Cork doesn't understand the situation, I'm mearly pointing out that the minimum wage, while a good thing, doesn't really factor into this discussion at all, it's little more than a plug. It's like having a discussion about Saddam Huessens use of Chemical weapons against his own people and the Iranians, and me just saying "lucky we have a law here against such weapons, otherwise it would be going on in other places too". It brings nothing to the table, really.

billy the squid

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

i think irish ferries ceo eamonn rothwell should get the entrepreneur of the year award for lowering the labour cost of his business in such a novel way.its this sort of entrpreneurial spirit that makes ireland a bastion of capitalism,laissez faire.

i doubt Irish ferries grinding to a halt wasn't part of the plan though. For anyone interested in friday's protests around the country, click the link below
http://www.ictu.ie/html/campaign/december9.htm

hopefully yours truly should be able to make the Liemrick one.

Kudos go to the ITWF who staged a demonstration at Pembroke today
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/4493888.stm

I can't see how anyone in this country could support what Irish Ferries are doing to its workers. according to the BBC article linked above the "Take redundancy or take lower wages" choices presented to workers was in breach of a previous agreement between workers and Irish ferries.

ronbyrne2005

irish ferries =private company operating outside irish employment law jurisdiction
average monthly wage in latvia=115euro, wage per month with irish ferries@3.60hour for 40 hr week=576euro over 4 times wage in latvia,,no wonder they are happy to work there.why do you want to stop these people from improving their lives and earning good wages,you are depriving them of the right to provide for their families and to improve their home economy.
partnership=dead
market will decide wages from now on with a minimum wage,unskilled/semi skilledstaff such as those irish ferries wont be overpaid anymore.

ratboy

i'm sure €115 is worth alot more in Latvia than over here.

segadreamcast

flogen wrote:

I'm not blaming bertie, it was an unforeseen loophole, and who would expect an Irish company to ditch its Irish staff and hire the modern equivalent to slaves? It would be (and is proving to be) economic suicide. I'm not sure if much is being done in the way of plugging this loophole, although I'm pretty sure it's not something the Irish government can do alone, and must be done on a European or even International level.
I'm not suggesting that Cork doesn't understand the situation, I'm mearly pointing out that the minimum wage, while a good thing, doesn't really factor into this discussion at all, it's little more than a plug. It's like having a discussion about Saddam Huessens use of Chemical weapons against his own people and the Iranians, and me just saying "lucky we have a law here against such weapons, otherwise it would be going on in other places too". It brings nothing to the table, really.

Totally agreed, it just didn't come across that way in your earlier post... you seemed to be implying that Cork didn't understand the issue at hand is all.

Incidentally, my earlier 'bertie-bashing' comment wasn't actually aimed at you - it was just a general comment.

flogen

flogen wrote:

I'm not blaming bertie, it was an unforeseen loophole, and who would expect an Irish company to ditch its Irish staff and hire the modern equivalent to slaves?

They do it because they can.
It's obvious that they want to maintain or increase their bottom line.

Bertie or any Taoiseach is in somewhat of a quandry with this though.As an island nation, we need the haulage capacity on our seas-yet the likes of Irish Ferries will only provide this if they can do it at a cost suited to them.
The cheap labour is a legal avenue open to them.

The fly in the ointment is that the staff on land who bring in the ships, ie the port workers are unionised and have the power to scupper Irish ferries by blocking them coming in.

That has by default already happened and freight is being seriously disrupted by a drop in capacity of 30%.

Of course, the ports could go abroad and hire staff from Eastern Europe and pay them the minimum wage to operate the docks.
Thats the reality of a flexible labour force today.

ronbyrne2005

ratboy wrote:

i'm sure €115 is worth alot more in Latvia than over here.

yeah and 576euro is a hell of a lot in latvia! they wont be lving in ireland!(theyll be living on boat for their "tour of duty" so you have to compare their wages to the cost of living when they get back to latvia,they could buy a house in latvia with a years wages working on the ferries! so cut the "slave" and "bonded labour" crap cos they are happy to work for this wage, your clothes are made by slave workers in 3rd world countries on a few dollars a day and you have the hypocrisy to oppse low wages on a ferry operating under internatonal marine law, anyone who opposes letting poor latvians earn a good living should get an f*ckin life and get outta their ivory tower of socialist idealism.

Hotblack Desiato

Cork wrote:

Only for FF introducing the mimimum wage - many more in this country would be explioted.

Except it was actually Mary Harney. Her supposed bosom buddies over in IBEC have been loudly moaning ever since.

The EU should do something to stop this flag of convenience mickey-taking on intra-EU routes, it's not allowed for airlines or any other industry.

If all ferry companies have to play by the same rules then there's no problem, freight that's too bulky or low-value for air will always have to go by sea, people will still want to take their cars, motorcycles and caravans to France and the UK. It's not as if Irish Ferries are losing money at present.

ronbyrne2005

why do socialist parties get little votes in ireland? because the population in general has become materialistic greedy and capitalist,any capitalist country would agree with a private firm reducing its labour cost legally and also helping out poor latvians-helpin these poor latvians should make all the socialists feel better! i hate brendan o'connor but his article in todays independent is so right about irish people and their attitudes to capitalism

flogen

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

your clothes are made by slave workers in 3rd world countries on a few dollars a day and you have the hypocrisy to oppse low wages on a ferry operating under internatonal marine law, anyone who opposes letting poor latvians earn a good living should get an f*ckin life and get outta their ivory tower of socialist idealism.

How do you know what clothes I wear?
It may be operating under international marine law, but that doesn't make the law just. My biggest concern is the loss of Irish jobs. It's not like the country got too competitive and they shut up shop and moved away, they're still operating as an Irish company on Irish routes but they don't have Irish staff, and it's not because Irish people won't work in that type of job, it's because people from another country will do it for less.
Of course this isn't actual slavery but it is a modern western equivilent in my opinion. These workers are being taken advantage of because they're cheap labour, and not because they're good workers. Once another country comes along with a even cheaper workforce, they'll be shown the door too.
Ireland has never been a totally capitalist state, we have a public health service and public schools etc., so don't start talking about this being the facts of capitalism. We're hardly socialist either, but there is a line to be drawn, companies should be allowed to profit but only when they aren't manipulating law and treating their workers unfairly, which they have done with their outgoing Irish staff.

Also, extreme left and right parties rarely get high votes, centre parties do. If a new party was formed with purely capitalist ideals it would do terribly, worse than SF and Labour

ronbyrne2005

flogen wrote:

How do you know what clothes I wear?
It may be operating under international marine law, but that doesn't make the law just. My biggest concern is the loss of Irish jobs. It's not like the country got too competitive and they shut up shop and moved away, they're still operating as an Irish company on Irish routes but they don't have Irish staff, and it's not because Irish people won't work in that type of job, it's because people from another country will do it for less.
Of course this isn't actual slavery but it is a modern western equivilent in my opinion. These workers are being taken advantage of because they're cheap labour, and not because they're good workers. Once another country comes along with a even cheaper workforce, they'll be shown the door too.
Ireland has never been a totally capitalist state, we have a public health service and public schools etc., so don't start talking about this being the facts of capitalism. We're hardly socialist either, but there is a line to be drawn, companies should be allowed to profit but only when they aren't manipulating law and treating their workers unfairly, which they have done with their outgoing Irish staff.

Also, extreme left and right parties rarely get high votes, centre parties do. If a new party was formed with purely capitalist ideals it would do terribly, worse than SF and Labour

how are they being taken advantage of ? they are getting four times the salary they would get in latvia and willingly come to work the irish sea route, in reality irish people are concerned about the expensive irish workers and they couldnt give a toss about a few latvians (who when interviewed by an irish newspaper said they were happy to work at the rates offered,so theres no need to be concerned for them)

fear and loathing in the trade unionist movement:v:

billy the squid

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

how are they being taken advantage of ? they are getting four times the salary they would get in latvia and willingly come to work the irish sea route, in reality irish people are concerned about the expensive irish workers and they couldnt give a toss about a few latvians (who when interviewed by an irish newspaper said they were happy to work at the rates offered,so theres no need to be concerned for them)

fear and loathing in the trade unionist movement:v:

would you work for €3 an hour?

ronbyrne2005

if the average wage in my country was 115 euro a month sure i would,im a man of little needs.i am on disbility benefit since graduating from college due to health issues and only have 146euro aweek which doesnt go far,but i could live confortably in latvia or poland on it.

flogen

they're being taken advantage of because they are being used as cheap labour, and they will be replaced once they become too expensive or a cheaper alternative is found.
The fact is that the Irish workers have been treated like scum, and I can't see Irish Ferries suddenly being nice to their new cheap labour, Prime Time already had a story on one worker who had been mistreated by the supervisors and managment there.

It's pretty funny that you're happy to see Irish people lose their jobs just because the cost of living in Ireland is higher than in other countries, and that's what it comes down to.

billy the squid

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

if the average wage in my country was 115 euro a month sure i would,im a man of little needs.i am on disbility benefit since graduating from college due to health issues and only have 146euro aweek which doesnt go far,but i could live confortably in latvia or poland on it.

your answer has nothing to do with the question. I did not ask you what the average wage in eastern europe was, I am asking you here and now. If your bos told you you were going to get €3 an hour from now on would you accept it? its a yes or no answer.

as an aside, the country they come from might pay €115 a month, but the country they come from is not the country they are working in. by your logic, any black person working in a factory in Ireland should get the average wage in africa while his work collegues get the average wage for ireland.

arent you lucky the management of Irish ferries are not incharge of the Dept of Social Community and Family affairs then.

ronbyrne2005

billy the squid wrote:

as an aside, the country they come from might pay €115 a month, but the country they come from is not the country they are working in. by your logic, any black person working in a factory in Ireland should get the average wage in africa while his work collegues get the average wage for ireland QUOTE]

your argument here is erroneous and is attempting to paint me as a rascist or xenophobe by implication.if a "black " person or a white person from africa or any other immigrant was working in an irish factory that would be subject to irish labour law, the latvian workers wont be technically working in ireland (hence the ability of management to not pay minimum rate and the tax free nature of their earnings and the fact they dont need a pps number) so thats why they are content to work for that wage, i dont think anyone would work for that rate if they had the same cost of living as you and i. just admit that the reason the unions are stiring this up is not to protect a group of happy willing latvian workers but to maintain the connditions of union members in this country and to put themselves in a stronger position when partnership talks get under way after xmas,also they see this as a great PR stunt to boost their flagging membership and importance in this country.

flogen

So you figure that the latvian workers, despite working Irish routes are still going to be living in Latvia? I'd be surprised by that, I would have figured that they are latvian workers living in Ireland, working for an Irish company that has it's ships flagged in a foreign country. Their standards are lower because of what they come from, but because they live in Ireland they still have to pay as much as Irish people to survive. Technically they don't work in Ireland, but in effect they do (at more than half the minimum wage).
It still comes back to something you haven't responded to, you're praising Irish Ferries for dropping Irish staff because they live in a country that has a much higher cost of living than others.

ronbyrne2005

they're being taken advantage of because they are being used as cheap labour this argument is spurious!! we were used as cheap labour by foreign multinationls setting up here!!! didnt hear anyone complaining then!

The fact is that the Irish workers have been treated like scum, being given a massive redundancy payment to leave the company with high chance of finding good job in a booming economy! yeah definetely being treated like scum! tell that to the sweat shop slaves working for nike etc-THATS REALLY TREATING PEOPLE LIKE SCUM,go and call joe duffy with such sensationalist hyperbole

, Prime Time already had a story on one worker who had been mistreated by the yes rte, a bastion of lefty tradeunionism with all the journo's being members of the NUJ,hardly a unbiased group i say

It's pretty funny that you're happy to see Irish people lose their jobs just because the cost of living in Ireland is higher than in other countries
funny? its reality mate,multinationals are fleeing countries with higher costs of living because higher cost of living =higher labour costs ,intel stated yesterday that it was locating its next plant in israel because america is too expensive and that it is considering moving US plants 2 miles over border into mexico where the costs are far lower and is looking at india for another plant.so feck off to cuba if you dont beleive in the economic system which has generated such wealth and prosperity for this country and is helping poor countries to catch up to our standard of living.
adios unions your days are numbered,sufficent legislation exists to protect productive land based irish workers,so :v: :v: :v:

billy the squid

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

your argument here is erroneous and is attempting to paint me as a rascist or xenophobe by implication.if a "black " person or a white person from africa or any other immigrant was working in an irish factory that would be subject to irish labour law, the latvian workers wont be technically working in ireland (hence the ability of management to not pay minimum rate and the tax free nature of their earnings and the fact they dont need a pps number) so thats why they are content to work for that wage

in your previous post you stated that

if the average wage in my country was 115 euro a month sure i would

Now they might not be technically working in irelnd but they are physically working in ireland once they cross the 12 mile line off the coast that is the limit of our territorial waters. They are working in Ireland when they are in dock and their are on a boat with IRISH in big green letters on the side of it.

As to your earlier claim that this is not bonded labour. Can you point out where access to better paying jobs in either Ireland or the UK is made availible to them. They will be stuck on the boat for the entire duration of their tour of duty. do they get stuck on the boat when sailings are cancelled due to rough seas? If they do not have the opportunity to seek alternative employment with better pay in the countries they are visiting, in the EU where EU citezens have free movement, then it is bonded labour.

and to suggest that just because they come from latvia they should be content with 115 euro is racist. If they are going to work in this part of the world then they should get the going rate in this part of the world, no matter where they come from. This is not a call centre in India we are talking about, it is a ship which uses the ports of three countries. Ireland the UK and France.

i dont think anyone would work for that rate if they had the same cost of living as you and i

but its OK for a group of eastern europeans to earn peanuts for a hard days graft, as long as its not one of us that has to do it.

just admit that the reason the unions are stiring this up is not to protect a group of happy willing latvian workers but to maintain the connditions of union members in this country and to put themselves in a stronger position when partnership talks get under way after xmas,also they see this as a great PR stunt to boost their flagging membership and importance in this country.

and your entitled to your opinion, I think these latvians would be happier on dry land earning what everyone else is earning rather than a fraction of it on sea.

Dar

billy the squid wrote:

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

Now they might not be technically working in irelnd but they are physically working in ireland once they cross the 12 mile line off the coast that is the limit of our territorial waters. They are working in Ireland when they are in dock and their are on a boat with IRISH in big green letters on the side of it.

They will not be living in Ireland, and they will not be paying the Irish cost of living. Their food/board while working will be paid for be Irish Ferries - more than likely on the ship itself. Then they go back to Latvia for their weeks off with a comparitive fortune in their pockets. They are earning a hell of lot more than they would at home, and they are not paying the higher living costs of actually living in Ireland. Repeat after me: they are not being exploited, and are in fact being paid an excellant wage by Latvian standards. They will be spending that money in Latvia, not Ireland.

That said I do not like Irish Ferries buisiness methods and as such will not be using them again.

ronbyrne2005

flogen wrote:

So you figure that the latvian workers, despite working Irish routes are still going to be living in Latvia? I'd be surprised by that, I would have figured that they are latvian workers living in Ireland(i dont call living on board a ferry at its dock living in ireland their food and accomodation is provided,they choose these arrangements,they wouldnt come here and work for 3.60 if they faced irish cost of living, if they they choose to leave the ship/dock during their time off duty its up to them,im sure they will work every hour gods sends for a few months/year save their wages or send them home and socialise in their acomodation with their commrades) working for an Irish company that has it's ships flagged in a foreign country. Their standards are lower because of what they come from, but because they live in Ireland(dont live in irealand in the sense of having to face irish cost of living taxes etc) they still have to pay as much as Irish people to survive. Technically they don't work in Ireland, but in effect they do (at more than half the minimum wage).
It still comes back to something you haven't responded to, you're praising Irish Ferries for dropping Irish staff because they live in a country that has a much higher cost of living than others.im praising them for taking on the unions and for making their company more efficient,if the highly inefficient public sector did that we would live in a much beter country but no the unions wont let an post reform,the health system reform,the prison officers reform etc etc.

flogen

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

they're being taken advantage of because they are being used as cheap labour this argument is spurious!! we were used as cheap labour by foreign multinationls setting up here!!! didnt hear anyone complaining then!

We weren't used as cheap labour, the country was and is being used as a base because of low taxes brought in by the government.

The fact is that the Irish workers have been treated like scum, being given a massive redundancy payment to leave the company with high chance of finding good job in a booming economy! yeah definetely being treated like scum! tell that to the sweat shop slaves working for nike etc-THATS REALLY TREATING PEOPLE LIKE SCUM,go and call joe duffy with such sensationalist hyperbole

Booming economy? Try that argument 5 years ago. I don't know what Nike's practices has to do with this issue, if they run sweat shops that's something seperate and no justification for another company mistreating its workforce.
What is the redundancy package then? I bet it's little if anything more than the minimum that must be offered by companies according to Irish law.

, Prime Time already had a story on one worker who had been mistreated by the yes rte, a bastion of lefty tradeunionism with all the journo's being members of the NUJ,hardly a unbiased group i say

If you have an issue with RTE bias, maybe you should make a complaint. The RTE govenors would not allow a report to go out that was pro-union, they would get too much flack from the government because of it. Besides, the feature was just a report of a womans story, not something they invented themselves, it was given coverage in many other media outlets and both sides were given equal oppertunity to reply to claims.

It's pretty funny that you're happy to see Irish people lose their jobs just because the cost of living in Ireland is higher than in other countries
funny? its reality mate,multinationals are fleeing countries with higher costs of living because higher cost of living =higher labour costs ,intel stated yesterday that it was locating its next plant in israel because america is too expensive and that it is considering moving US plants 2 miles over border into mexico where the costs are far lower and is looking at india for another plant.so feck off to cuba if you dont beleive in the economic system which has generated such wealth and prosperity for this country and is helping poor countries to catch up to our standard of living.
adios unions your days are numbered,sufficent legislation exists to protect productive land based irish workers,so :v: :v: :v:

Once again, companies are threatening to leave Ireland if corporate tax rises, they've been sitting amongst huge inflation here for years and haven't been too bothered. You are applauding a company for punishing workers because of their country of residence.

AARRRGH

...90% of the Irish crew accepted their generous redundancy offer
...€3.60 an hour (with free accomodation, food, bills) is a good salary for Latvians
...Employing foreign workers for below Irish minimum wage on a Cyprus registered boat is perfectly legal in Ireland
...The media have been talking all kinds of bollox about scare tactics by Irish Ferries (security intimidating Irish staff, tear gas, etc etc.)

I do believe it is ridiculous that the CEO is on nearly €700k a year and has issues with the "high wages" of the Irish staff, but what Irish Ferries is doing is legal, and is just the way the world works today. Outsourcing is not abnormal for other parts of the world.

People are making too much of a fuss over this. If the word "Latvian" was replaced with "unemployed Irish people", no one would give much of a ****...