irish ferries

ronbyrne2005

billy the squid wrote:

in your previous post you stated that



Now they might not be technically working in irelnd but they are physically working in ireland once they cross the 12 mile line off the coast that is the limit of our territorial waters. (did you know many people come here to work in ireland on land and arent subject to irish labour law as they are contracters from a non EU country so proximity to the old sod isnt relevant here) They are working in Ireland when they are in dock and their are on a boat with IRISH in big green letters on the side of it. IRISH means nothing its just a legacy of the state ownership ,it has no legal implications etc its just a business name as guess what? the ferries sail into IRELAND

As to your earlier claim that this is not bonded labour. Can you point out where access to better paying jobs in either Ireland or the UK is made availible to them. They will be stuck on the boat for the entire duration of their tour of duty. do they get stuck on the boat when sailings are cancelled due to rough seas? If they do not have the opportunity to seek alternative employment with better pay in the countries they are visiting, in the EU where EU citezens have free movement, then it is bonded labour."dont be stupid man they have access to work anywhere they like,they can use a new thing called "the interent" to get jobs on land in mainland europe UK or here or they can walk down from the docks to the nearest FAS office and theres thousands of jobs paying over irish minimum wage! you should ask yourself why they have not chosen to move to ireland or some other EU country and get a land based job and pay taxes there and rent accomodaion???? maybe they have deciude this is what they want to do as its easier than totally relocating to a foreign country when you have no english ,face a minmum wage job and face taxes high rent ,high cost of living etc so please stop talking tripe re bonded labour

and to suggest that just because they come from latvia they should be content with 115 euro is racist.im not suggesting they shud be happy with 115!dont know where you got that one from!in fact i hope they move to land based jobs and prosper on higher wages but who are you to tll them they cant willingly enter into an arrangement they find benefical and acceptable??? If they are going to work in this part of the world then they should get the going rate in this part of the world, no matter where they come from. This is not a call centre in India we are talking about, it is a ship which uses the ports of three countries. Ireland the UK and France.



but its OK for a group of eastern europeans to earn peanuts for a hard days graft, as long as its not one of us that has to do it."its ok for someone to work for a wage and conditions they find acceptable,your view is exactly that YOUR VIEW and is subjective THEIR VIEW is that this is a good job for them to better their lot and that of their families much like irish builders did when they went to europe and america in 70's/80's



and your entitled to your opinion, I think these latvians would be happier on dry land earning what everyone else is earning rather than a fraction of it on sea i totally agree but they have decided that earning more than four times
the salary they get in latvia and having accomoddaiton transport and cost of food heat etc paid for is an attractive option and they would like to try it

billy the squid

Ron, if you have issues with the reporting on RTE then these are the people you need to contact, I'm actually watching the prime time programme now from the RTE website I will tell you my opinion on it afterwards.

personally, if there was a problem with the programme it would have been mentioned by the BCC by now. which it hasn't so I look forward to reading what the BCC has to say about your complaint.

ronbyrne2005

flogen wrote:

We weren't used as cheap labour, the country was and is being used as a base because of low taxes brought in by the government.



Booming economy? Try that argument 5 years ago. I don't know what Nike's practices has to do with this issue, if they run sweat shops that's something seperate and no justification for another company mistreating its workforce.
What is the redundancy package then? I bet it's little if anything more than the minimum that must be offered by companies according to Irish law.(they are getting a very generous redundancy package thats why 90% of staff accepted



If you have an issue with RTE bias, maybe you should make a complaint. The RTE govenors would not allow a report to go out that was pro-union, they would get too much flack from the government because of it. Besides, the feature was just a report of a womans story, not something they invented themselves, it was given coverage in many other media outlets and both sides were given equal oppertunity to reply to claims.



Once again, companies are threatening to leave Ireland if corporate tax rises, they've been sitting amongst huge inflation here for years and haven't been too bothered. You are applauding a company for punishing workers because of their country of residence" no, low wages did play a part in locating here for many companies so your wrong mate-read any economics books on why industry located here(like i have done) or financial media and you will see that,any economist will tell ya that was one of reasons but sure tax haven status did also contribute as highlighted by new york times and wall street journal post recently ,anyway its irrelevant you stated "they're being taken advantage of because they are being used as cheap labour" by that logic every worker in the world working for a company who located in the employess country due to low labour costs are being exploited!! your a raving socialist if you beleive this! its similar to beleiving that a builder who offers you do work for ya cheaper than the other builders is being taken advantage of. what this "they're being taken advantage of because they are being used as cheap labour" fails to state is that they are willingly doing this. .

flogen

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

no, low wages did play a part in locating here for many companies so your wrong mate-read any economics books on why industry located here(like i have done) or financial media and you will see that,any economist will tell ya that was one of reasons but sure tax haven status did also contribute as highlighted by new york times and wall street journal post recently ,anyway its irrelevant you stated "they're being taken advantage of because they are being used as cheap labour" by that logic every worker in the world working for a company who located in the employess country due to low labour costs are being exploited!! your a raving socialist if you beleive this! its similar to beleiving that a builder who offers you do work for ya cheaper than the other builders is being taken advantage of. what this "they're being taken advantage of because they are being used as cheap labour" fails to state is that they are willingly doing this. .[/I][/B]

SO if low wages were the reason they came here, how come most are still here after numerous wage increases across the board, and how come it's only the tax issue that gets them nervous?
You cannot compare a company physically locating in Ireland for tax/wage reasons to the Irish Ferries issue anyway, because Irish Ferries are not physically located in another country, they just put a new flag on their ships. It would be one thing if they replaced their workers with people being paid slightly less, but in this situation they are replacing Irish staff with foreign workers for low rates, well below the average European wage rate, this is not a fact of a competitive workforce, this is taking advantage of poorer economies and citizens to cut costs; they will be replaced by a cheaper alternative once that comes along and they won't be entitled to the same legal protection as Irish or European workers are and so they can be forced to work long hours, more days in a row and, as we know, for much less. If they don't like having to work so much, they'll be replaced. These people are being taken advantage of, even if the money they earn is a lot in their home country. It isn't in the rest of the EU and the quality of their conditions will be much lower than people should expect in this day and age.

And do you know what the reduncancy package is? If it's the amount that Irish Ferries are legally obliged to pay you can hardly call it generous, you call that minimal, even if it is a lot of money for the people working there longest.
I'm not sure how many have accepted the packages, but I don't think those who did did so because they were delighted with their windfall.

ronbyrne2005

billy the squid wrote:

Ron, if you have issues with the reporting on RTE then these are the people you need to contact, I'm actually watching the prime time programme now from the RTE website I will tell you my opinion on it afterwards.

personally, if there was a problem with the programme it would have been mentioned by the BCC by now. which it hasn't so I look forward to reading what the BCC has to say about your complaint.

im not just talking about primetime,many commentators who arent members of NUJ have claimed that union members in rte and other media outlets have been more on the unions side

billy the squid

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

im not just talking about primetime,many commentators who arent members of NUJ have claimed that union members in rte and other media outlets have been more on the unions side

well that is another debate for another forum News/Media forum I am just facilitating you with information that you might find useful if you do indeed believe that RTE is being biased

on the subject of Irish ferries again, a quote from the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (Article 91)

1. Every State shall fix the conditions for the grant of its nationality to ships, for the registration of ships in its territory, and for the right to fly its flag. Ships have the nationality of the State whose flag they are entitled to fly. There must exist a genuine link between the State and the ship.

Now Irish ferries operate out of Ireland, The UK and France. They want to have Latvian employees. now where is the genuine link with Cyprus here?

no, low wages did play a part in locating here for many companies so your wrong mate-read any economics books on why industry located here(like i have done) or financial media and you will see that,any economist will tell ya that was one of reasons but sure tax haven status did also contribute as highlighted by new york times and wall street journal post recently ,anyway its irrelevant you stated "they're being taken advantage of because they are being used as cheap labour" by that logic every worker in the world working for a company who located in the employess country due to low labour costs are being exploited!! your a raving socialist if you beleive this! its similar to beleiving that a builder who offers you do work for ya cheaper than the other builders is being taken advantage of. what this "they're being taken advantage of because they are being used as cheap labour" fails to state is that they are willingly doing this. .[/i][/b]

I was actually inside Dells EMF 1 plant this week, and they are building more production lines in there. as well as more offices. so while they might be building plants in Poland, they are still investing in their irish facilities and expanding production in them.. I would also add that their EMF 3 plant has changed from operating 5 days a week to operating 7 days a week with the introduction of a third weekend shift. working 3 twelve hour shifts on Friday Saturday and Sunday. Not only has this cut down on their overtime costs, but it has provided more employment to the people of Limerick.

ronbyrne2005

flogen wrote:

SO if low wages were the reason they came here, how come most are still here after numerous wage increases across the board, and how come it's only the tax issue that gets them nervous? (i didnt say all companies but anyway fruit of the loom left when wages increased and many other less well known companies. many of the ones that are still here have decided to stay for tax reasons as you say and they are prepared to pay the higher wages because they save much much more on the tax advantage of being here than moving to a lower labour cost enviroment but they will eventually when the tax breaks are reduced or if the wages become too high to justify staying)You cannot compare a company physically locating in Ireland for tax/wage reasons to the Irish Ferries issue anyway,(i wasnt comparing them ,i was talking about comanies locating somewhere for lower labour costs as you stated that any workers working for a lower wage are being taken advantage of,some foreign co's located here for cheaper labour irish people were delighted with the jobs but if we used your logic they were being taken advantage of!! ) because Irish Ferries are not physically located in another country, they just put a new flag on their ships. It would be one thing if they replaced their workers with people being paid slightly less, but in this situation they are replacing Irish staff with foreign workers for low rates(like the irish/uk companies outsourcing to india-wheres the problem with that), well below the average European wage rate, this is not a fact of a competitive workforce, this is taking advantage of poorer economies and citizens to cut costs(actually this is not taking advantage of poorer economies its a reciproca arangement,the workers send money back to their "poor" country and also bring back skills etc when they return if they have moved up to a skilled job in their new country); they will be replaced by a cheaper alternative once that comes along and they won't be entitled to the same legal protection as Irish or European workers are and so they can be forced to work long hours, more days in a row and, as we know, for much less (its those individuals choices if they want to stay and work under such conditions,if a comapny treats it staff badly it gets bad reputation to work for and a high staff turnover which is not in companies interest but again i stree its an individuals own free choice to work for such employers,no one is forcing them). If they don't like having to work so much, they'll be replaced. These people are being taken advantage of, even if the money they earn is a lot in their home country. It isn't in the rest of the EU( boo hoo the world isnt fair,what do you suggest we do force poor countries to impose a minimum wage equivalent to the average wage in europe?? watch their fragile economies collapse if your wishfull thinking was implemented,their labour is in many cases all they have to offer and if they are happy to work for such rates then let them and watch their economies grow and prosper as a result of hard work) and the quality of their conditions will be much lower than people should expect in this day and age.

And do you know what the reduncancy package is? If it's the amount that Irish Ferries are legally obliged to pay you can hardly call it generous, (actually its well above the minimum the company are obliged to pay mate. )you call that minimal, even if it is a lot of money for the people working there longest.
I'm not sure how many have accepted the packages, but I don't think those who did did so because they were delighted with their windfall(actually 90% took the offer because it was so generous,even more generous than the one aer lingus offered,the average person gets 100k and some are getting 300k sure thats a load for an unskilled or semi skilled worker and they can invest it set up a business etc and the jobs market is buoyant so they will all get work if they want.

ronbyrne2005

billy the squid wrote:

well that is another debate for another forum News/Media forum I am just facilitating you with information that you might find useful if you do indeed believe that RTE is being biased

on the subject of Irish ferries again, a quote from the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (Article 91)



Now Irish ferries operate out of Ireland, The UK and France. They want to have Latvian employees. now where is the genuine link with Cyprus here?

well obviously this isnt binding or else why then do all cruise ships operating from usa uk etc have flags of convienience?and employ asian agency staff??? the UN is only a talking shop anyway no one follws their proclaimations eg israel over palestine etc.

Hotblack Desiato

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

yes rte, a bastion of lefty tradeunionism with all the journo's being members of the NUJ,hardly a unbiased group i say

That's laughable, all newspaper journalists are also members of the NUJ, do you think they're all biased as well?
It's also offensive to all members of trade unions to suggest that their professional judgement is biased by the simple fact that they are members of an association designed to protect the interests of workers.

Hotblack Desiato

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

why then do all cruise ships operating from usa uk etc have flags of convienience?

Because their operators are greedy, exploitative scum?

billy the squid

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

well obviously this isnt binding or else why then do all cruise ships operating from usa uk etc have flags of convienience?and employ asian agency staff??? the UN is only a talking shop anyway no one follws their proclaimations eg israel over palestine etc.

I suppose being a tax paying member of the workforce for the past several years has given me a different viewpoint on the usefulness of unions. needless to say had it not been for the presence of a trade union where I work,

i just find it irksome that someone who has never worked a day in their life complaining about unions wanting parety of wages between workers regardless of what country they come from.

ronbyrne2005

actually mate ,i worked since i was 15 ,gettin £1.76 an hour in quinnsworth now tesco back in 1996,didnt last long working for that rate but worked in a load of places part time all through secondary,and full time during summer holidays including minmum wage while working in california on j-1 for summer.

Boggle

Because their operators are greedy, exploitative scum?

By that logic you should be complaining about every company who locates a workforce outside their own country as they generally do so for a financial reasons.

You can also include many companies operating in Ireland for that as, while cap gain tax is low here, so are the wages for skilled employees such as engineers.

i just find it irksome that someone who has never worked a day in their life complaining about unions wanting parety of wages between workers regardless of what country they come from.

Which is all well and good but I don't think that there will be a disparity between workers based on where they come from - what is happening is that Irish ferries have decided to reduce the wages offered as per regional laws (those of the the sea) and they are now looking to employees from countries where this low wage, by Irish standards, is still seen as a good wage.

I think its crap of course (much like most people) but unfortunately I can't see a difference between a company not working on Irish soil (and hence not subject to Irish law) and a company outsourcing its production to another country. Waving an Irish flag does not bind you to our laws...

rossious

Mary Hanafin - I solute you

Its great to see someone on the country has the balls to stand against this madness.

Hotblack Desiato

Boggle wrote:

By that logic you should be complaining about every company who locates a workforce outside their own country as they generally do so for a financial reasons.

If the employees are protected by labour laws then more power to the employers.
It's not right that shipping companies can use flags of convenience to evade labour law. If you operate an airline out of Ireland you must obey Irish labour law, re-flagging is not allowed.

You can also include many companies operating in Ireland for that as, while cap gain tax is low here, so are the wages for skilled employees such as engineers.

There's a huge difference between setting up a manufacturing or R+D operation in a country to avail of the advantages there, and moving the flag of a ship to Cyprus or the Bahamas when the company has no operations whatsoever in those countries, purely to evade labour law.

rossious

Irish ferries has to be competitive to survive. We cannot close the door when half the horses have bolted.....

Stena Europe
Fishguard - Rosslare
Flag - Polish
http://www.stenaline.com/stena_line/freight/freight_facts/gb/vessels_1346_content.html

P&O
Larne-Cairnryan
Flag - Bahamas
http://www.poirishsea.com/passenger/EuHighlander.htm

Just a thought....

egan007

rossious wrote:

Irish ferries has to be competitive to survive. We cannot close the door when half the horses have bolted.....

Stena Europe
Fishguard - Rosslare
Flag - Polish
http://www.stenaline.com/stena_line/freight/freight_facts/gb/vessels_1346_content.html

P&O
Larne-Cairnryan
Flag - Bahamas
http://www.poirishsea.com/passenger/EuHighlander.htm

Just a thought....

Profit before people.

rossious

egan007 wrote:

Profit before people.

Economics. Better to have the comapny survive and give people jobs than go under and have no jobs and big problems for exporters/importers and tourists.

I heard the Latvian Ambassador on Sky News Ireland last night say he though it was a great opportunity for the workers. He was very happy with Irish ferries taking them on, stating that the deal was a lot better than they could manage back home.

egan007

What's the point in the pople having jobs where they work like slaves for sh!t pay?
'big problems for exporters/importers and tourists' you mean creating problems for companies?
It's high time people stopped working for the companies and started working for themselves ( i don't mean self employment). Companies have only one goal - Profit - not one will deny that. We as the balance of power need to force them to change that to 'People'.

Of course i know that economics are important but current economics take the power from the person and give it to a corporate entity. We accept this as the norm because it's the norm - it does not make it right.

ronbyrne2005

egan007 wrote:

What's the point in the pople having jobs where they work like slaves for sh!t pay?
'big problems for exporters/importers and tourists' you mean creating problems for companies?
It's high time people stopped working for the companies and started working for themselves ( i don't mean self employment). Companies have only one goal - Profit - not one will deny that. We as the balance of power need to force them to change that to 'People'.

Of course i know that economics are important but current economics take the power from the person and give it to a corporate entity. We accept this as the norm because it's the norm - it does not make it right.

eastern europeans are prepared to work for "sh1t pay" as you say because they are happy they dont live under communist tyranny anymore and that they expect to get a better job soon and this is just the first step. "creating problems for companies " companies pay wages and provide greater security to the employee than an entrepreneur has this is why entrpeneurs have to get return on their capital and why people dont come before profit,most employees are happy to receive their wages for working and are happy living in a capitalist society which provides earnings for their materialistic spending.
as for economics taking power from the person,i dont think your correct ,people have the ability to change the government to an extreme left one as you seem to advocate,this extreme left government could change laws to reduce corporate power and give the people more importance than capital and equity but this doesnt/hasnt happened in any advanced economy like ours so all we can assume is that people are happy in the current economic framework we exist in.the one you seem to advocate has failed in all communist countries so far but i dont deny that in the future capitalism may lose its power as dominant economic model of the world.
corporations up to now have proved to be the most efficient form of economic and business entity which is required in our generally accepted capitalist dominated society.
i dont disagree that corporations have a lot of power but people give them this franchise and the people seem content the way things are.the people get the government they deserve and if they want change they have ability to change government and hence economic framework. im afraid in your a tiny minority for now and am deluding yourself that everyone feels like you.

tj-music.com

The really frightening part of this whole story is that some people are now blaming the non-eu or new-eu memebers who are willing to take up any job because they need to.

Elmo

Its a visious cycle.

They the non-nationals (god i hate that term) are taking our jobs and are working for less then the average wage in Ireland. Which is untrue in all cases, there are very few workers working below 7.65, I understand their are problems in the construction industry.

We must treat everyone equally. Employers must be told that they must give the right wage for the job that is being done otherwise we have propaganda. If employers do not give the correct wage they should be delt with by the legal system and sentences and large fines handed down.

The workers on "IRISH" ferries should be given an fair Irish wage not a wage that will exploit them and every other person in this country.

When you exploit people you have a knock on effect.

1930's Germany
1960's Northern Ireland
1960's America

People we eventually rise up. This day of protest is nothing in comparision to what will happen if the Government do not step in on behalf of all Workers in Ireland.

billy the squid

just back from the Limerick protest, there must have been thousands there the radio says 10 thousands, I'd believe it.

I might also add that unlike irish, Eastern europeans will be more likely to protest if they feel that people are making pricks out of them. they have went through more civil unrest than we have and know not to let people make **** of them. Do you think they will take being underpaid lying down for long?

i think not.

fair play to all those who were or are at different protests around the country.

CiaranC

Irish ferries has to be competitive to survive. We cannot close the door when half the horses have bolted.....

Every Business in Ireland has to be competitive to survive. I dont see anyone else trying to pay their workers ~€3 per hour, do you?

rossious

CiaranC wrote:

Every Business in Ireland has to be competitive to survive. I dont see anyone else trying to pay their workers ~€3 per hour, do you?

What you think Stena line / P&0 / Swansea Cork Ferries pay???
Its the way at sea. Are you forgetting the fact that all their living expenses are paid for??

BTW The ambassador for Latvia thinks his countrymen are getting a great deal.

Why are our trade unions sticking up for people who don’t want to be represented?????

Elmo

BTW The ambassador for Latvia thinks his countrymen are getting a great deal.

Sure he gets his DIGs and all paid for too.

When it comes down to it when you enter another country and you are entitled to work you are entitled to that countries labour laws. It is unfair to expect people to work for less or to work under bad conditions.

Why are our trade unions sticking up for people who don’t want to be represented

They are representing people who are being displaced by Irish Ferries attitude.

Would you work on Irish Ferries? If you had to for €3 plus Digs.

I guess thats a yes.

Hotblack Desiato

rossious wrote:

What you think Stena line / P&0 / Swansea Cork Ferries pay???
Its the way at sea.

It used to be "the way" to send children up chimneys, or have slaves picking cotton.

Perhaps we should change "the way" shipping companies are allowed to operate.

When the ports of departure and destination are both within the EU, it's ridiculous that employees have no protection except "the law of the sea" which is effectively no law.

No other industry - services, manufacturing, airlines - could get away with what Irish Ferries are doing. The fact that other shipping companies are doing the same thing does not make it right. There is a bigger issue at stake here than the fortunes of one shipping company.

ronbyrne2005

ninja900 wrote:

It used to be "the way" to send children up chimneys, or have slaves picking cotton.

Perhaps we should change "the way" shipping companies are allowed to operate.

When the ports of departure and destination are both within the EU, it's ridiculous that employees have no protection except "the law of the sea" which is effectively no law.

No other industry - services, manufacturing, airlines - could get away with what Irish Ferries are doing. The fact that other shipping companies are doing the same thing does not make it right. There is a bigger issue at stake here than the fortunes of one shipping company.

stop talking crap, comparing willing workers to child labour and slaves is an attempt to blur the issue. most people working on boats flying flags of convienience cant be treated in any old way and there are actually unions representing many of these workers (International Transport Workers' Federation the International Labour Organisation and the International Maritime Organisation) just because they arent paid irish minimum wage(highest in europe) doesnt mean they are exploited and vast majority are happy to do the jobs so therefore thers no exploitation.
You say "no other industry could get away with what irish ferries are doing" thank you for telling the scare mongerors in the unions that the demonstration yesterday was a waste of time because "no other industry could get away with what irish ferries are doing" and therefore land based irish employees have nothing to worry about and the latvian workers are happy and 90% of irish ferries staff voted for the generous redundancy package so everyone is happy!
"The fact that other shipping companies are doing the same thing does not make it right"
i didnt see the trade unions here out demonstrating for shipping company employees around the world over the last 100 years+ which is how long these exemptions from labour laws have been going on,in fact you never see the greedy self serving unions complaing about anything except anything that threatens the feathering of their own nests.

how ironic that 100,00 people march (many of whom have jobs for life in sheltered public sector) for staff in irish ferries who 90% accepted the proposals for redundancy and for latvian workers who dont want the unions representing them. yes the trade union movement is so relevant today!

Hagar

I don't know if this has been mentioned anywhere but if Irish Ferries are not registered in Ireland, don't employ Irish workers, don't use Irish currency (they use Sterling,even pre-Euro) well what's Irish about them?

The State should strip them of the privilege of using the word "Irish" as as brand/logo.

ronbyrne2005

Hagar wrote:

I don't know if this has been mentioned anywhere but if Irish Ferries are not registered in Ireland, don't employ Irish workers, don't use Irish currency (they use Sterling,even pre-Euro) well what's Irish about them?

The State should strip them of the privilege of using the word "Irish" as as brand/logo.

dont be stupid,the irish government has no power to stop any private company using irish in their business names,companies all over the world use irish in their company name and product names.