irish ferries

Hagar

You should not have called me stupid. I normally wouldn't bother with it but you really irked me.

Apologies all round to other posters.

ronbyrne2005

"dont be stupid" is a common phrase and as far as i am aware doesnt mean your calling the person stupid but rather your dismissing their statement as unlikely etc

Hotblack Desiato

Apologies for the excessive quoting but there's just so much here that can't go without comment.

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

stop talking crap

My irony detector just exploded.

comparing willing workers to child labour and slaves is an attempt to blur the issue.

No, it isn't. It's pointing out that what most of us now consider abhorrent was once acceptable to society. But the fact that it was once acceptable to do those things didn't make them right.

just because they arent paid irish minimum wage(highest in europe) doesnt mean they are exploited

Fine. I'd have no problem giving them the minimum wage at their port of departure, or port of arrival, whichever is lower. The point is that on an intra-EU route there is no reason why the workers aren't protected by the labour law of one of the countries they sail between. The use of flags of convenience is an anomaly which must be ended. This should have happened at the same time that duty-free was ended, but they kicked up such a fuss they were let away with it. Why is a ship regarded as within the jurisdiction of the EU for customs purposes but outside it for labour law purposes?

You say "no other industry could get away with what irish ferries are doing" thank you for telling the scare mongerors in the unions that the demonstration yesterday was a waste of time because "no other industry could get away with what irish ferries are doing"

No other industry would be let. Why should shipping on intra-EU routes be an exception? The only possible justification is to make excessive profits at the expense of workers.
The demonstration was far from a waste of time. It's important to let companies like Irish Ferries know that we find their practices unacceptable.

initially they supported communism,then they didnt try to overthrow the communist rulers so yes they deserved them

Jesus wept.
At risk of Godwining this thread, I'll make an analogy. It took the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto long enough to rise up against their oppressors. Does that mean they deserved what happened to them before the uprising?
Are you trying to pull our legs or what? I cannot take anything you post seriously after that.

Hotblack Desiato

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

people are protesting because they are greedy and want more money like they got under benchmarking etc

Are workers greedy for looking for more than 3.60 an hour? FFS.
Very few of the people protesting are affected by this dispute, so it's nothing to do with personal gain.
Benchmarking is just a process for pay determination, there has to be a more rational process than the old system of relativities which had got totally out of hand. If you don't like the determinations of the benchmarking system, write to your TD.
I see social welfare recipients got increases in the budget way ahead of inflation, no benchmarking process involved here, just votes to be won.

no socialist parties do well in this country ,this shows peoples contentment with their materialistic capitalist economy

There's nothing at all wrong with materialist capitalism (in fact I much prefer it to any other system, despite its imperfections) but that is provided basic legal protections exist to protect workers.
The Irish people through their government have decided there should be regulation of minimum wages, working hours, etc. It is totally anomalous that a company like Irish Ferries can circumvent these regulations by flying a flag of convenience.

these are specific regional produce and the protections for them is more to do with the legal concept of "passing off"

The question is, why are Irish Ferries passing themselves off as Irish? They want the marketing gains from the name "Irish" but don't want the Irish minimum wage. They can go to hell in my opinion.

i suppose when there was no social welfare and they were happy to work to feed their families,i dont see it being exploitative unless the child was forced

Jesus fell the second time. Really, you can't make stuff like this up.

the itwf is a bit hypocritical as its members on other ships work for 3.60 an hour or less

So the race to the bottom is O.K. so long as your workers aren't on the very bottom rung (yet) ?

what is a decent wage? answer;one which people are happy and prepared to work for

That's a common fallacy as it assumes an equal balance of power between employer and employee. In practice unless there is labour market regulation, there is relentless downward pressure on wages and conditions. Irish society has determined that this is unacceptable and that minimum standards should apply.

i was thinking of a hundred years ago when children routinely went up chimneys ,free schooling etc didnt exist and cleaning chimneys was a welcome alternative to the work house

Jesus falls for the third time :rolleyes:
You don't seem to have any idea how lucky we are to live in a (pretty much) enlightened society and have moved beyond "work or starve". The welfare state and every piece of labour protection law would not exist were it not for the labour movement which you are so keen to condemn.

and do you beleive everything you read???

Should I believe anything you write? If it's trolling it's not a bad one, I'll give you that.

"dont be stupid" is a common phrase and as far as i am aware doesnt mean your calling the person stupid but rather your dismissing their statement as unlikely etc

Wrong. You didn't say "don't say stupid things" you said "don't BE stupid".

parsi

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

people are protesting because they are greedy and want more money like they got under benchmarking etc and more protectionism to prevent willing immigrants undercutting them"

Do you know what you can do ? (I'll give you a hint - this is Jim Sheridan about the golf outing)

I brought 2 of my kids along to the protest yesterday . We were protesting at scum constuctively firing their staff in order to replace them with lower cost inputs. We were protesting at scum who seem to forget that staff are not just staff but also customers. Grand, go ahead and let slaves staff your ships and your shops but gee whizz who the feck is going to be able to buy your goods ?

What struck me unfortuately about the Cork protest was the age profile - we could have done with more young people there because its for all workers we were protesting.

But dont worry Mr Ron. Me Rottweiller will sort you out until such time as he can get a latvian mouthpiece for less....

ronbyrne2005

ninja900 wrote:

At risk of Godwining this thread, I'll make an analogy. It took the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto long enough to rise up against their oppressors. Does that mean they deserved what happened to them before the uprising?.

no one deserves any oppression but it was the fault of the german nation as a whole and the german nation as a whole deserved the "government" they got even if it resulted in a fascist dictator, persecuted minorites are the exception to the rule. if you dont beleive in the power of people as a nation to decide its government then you have little faith in mankind.

ninja900 wrote:

Are workers greedy for looking for more than 3.60 an hour? FFS.
Very few of the people protesting are affected by this dispute, so it's nothing to do with personal gain.

they arent greedy for looking for more than 3.60 an hour but this is not the real reason for their protests.the unions know that partnership talks are coming up soon and they wanna pressure government/employers that if they dont do business to the unions satisfaction then there will be industrial unrest,but the employers see the new immigrants as keeping wage inflation down so they are reluctant to sign up to large guaranteed pay rise each year regardless of the increase in employees productivity

ninja900 wrote:

There's nothing at all wrong with materialist capitalism (in fact I much prefer it to any other system, despite its imperfections) but that is provided basic legal protections exist to protect workers.
The Irish people through their government have decided there should be regulation of minimum wages, working hours, etc. It is totally anomalous that a company like Irish Ferries can circumvent these regulations by flying a flag of convenience

yes it is anomalus so therefore the reason the 100k people came out wasnt because they felt their jobs were destined to be converted to 3.60 an hour position it was the unions using irish ferries as a rallying call to establish a strong position for themselves in partnership talks.
my statement on socialist parties was to another person who felt the majority of people were anti capitalist pro larger involvement of governement and less free market.
yes the irish people have decided there should be regulation etc and i agree with this and the irish people have these assurances but we need to remain competitive and increase competitvity not to the detriment of irish living standards but if we dont keep increasing our competitivness we wont have this good economy in future.
the unions would still have had the demonstrations if the wage they were giving the latvians was the minimum wage and therfore the real reason they are out protesting is protection of their own pay and conditions.would you agree with the demonstrations if the latvians were getting the minimum wage? the 3.60 an hour rate is a red herring.

ninja900 wrote:

The question is, why are Irish Ferries passing themselves off as Irish? They want the marketing gains from the name "Irish" but don't want the Irish minimum wage. They can go to hell in my opinion.

the name "irish ferries" is a legacy of the state ownership and also due to geography,anyone is free to use a geographical name in its name , baltic ferries on irish sea,irish ferries on irish sea, we arent going to agree on this point but theres nothing that can be done to stop them using the name.im sure changing their name to one that doesnt feature "irish" wouldnt affect business much so i think its irrelevant(otherwise stenna would change their name to feature "irish" or "uk" if it would benefit them.)

ninja900 wrote:

So the race to the bottom is O.K. so long as your workers aren't on the very bottom rung (yet) ?

im not saying that,the workers at sea generally arent covered by extensive protective labour legislation ,maybe the protestors on friday should have been calling for reform of maritime law to help the hundreds of thousands of low wage staff on ships but it would be virtually impossile to change these laws although i would favour minimum wages for all ship staff wherever in the world they operate.but asian staff working for 3 euro an hour on a cruise ship are generally happy with it as it enables them to save a lot or send home money to their families in asia where wages are far lower,it mighnt be just that they have to work for such wages but thats the nature of capitalism,if they worked in a factory in asia they would have no union and get far worse pay and conditions

ninja900 wrote:

That's a common fallacy as it assumes an equal balance of power between employer and employee. In practice unless there is labour market regulation, there is relentless downward pressure on wages and conditions. Irish society has determined that this is unacceptable and that minimum standards should apply.

there is labour market regulation and the employees are in a very strong position in this country. there needs to be labour market regulation yes,theres is market regulation in this country , but even when there is no market regulation once the economy is growing wages/conditions wont be driven down as there is a large demand for labour as in growing economy.in a stagnant or decling economy wages may be driven down but the lower wages will drive economic growth and the wages will rise with the economy.unions were/are necessary in developing economies but in modern economies they arent relevant as shown by the tiny amount of private sector workers in them in this country.
look at america where very little labour laws exist yet average wages continue growing at least in line with inflation.

ninja900 wrote:

Wrong. You didn't say "don't say stupid things" you said "don't BE stupid".

i didnt mean to say anyone was stupid

logonapr

According to today's Sunday Independent Irish Ferries are now prepared to pay the legal minimum wage but SIPTU want to represent all staff which the Seamens Union do not agree to.
Was it ever really about low pay? Interesting that vast bulk of protesters were in 'protected' state or semi state employment and obviously have no concept of the free market.
The US doesn't go on with all this nonsense and it is, and has been, one of the richer nations for God knows how long. We either live in a capitalist/free market society or we don't and not everything will be perfect. In other countries bad employers just lose their staff to good employers. It's not as if jobs in Ireland are incredibly scarce.
Yes Irish Ferries were not doing it for the highest motives but then again neither have the protesters in their protected state jobs.

RainyDay

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

i think irish ferries ceo eamonn rothwell should get the entrepreneur of the year award for lowering the labour cost of his business in such a novel way.its this sort of entrpreneurial spirit that makes ireland a bastion of capitalism,laissez faire.

Pity you're not seeing the big picture. Why did the 'great entrepeneur' Eamonn insist on huge capital investment to add substantial additional capacity into what was bleedingly obviously a shrinking marketplace. And now he expects his staff to bend over and take the pain that results from his actions. Dope.

ronbyrne2005

good piece from sunday times which i agree with
....................................................................................

The trade union movement is basking in the glow of Friday’s successful national day of protest. Tens of thousands of people took to the streets to demonstrate against the decision by Irish Ferries to replace its existing workforce with cheaper foreign labour and it is clear that many Irish workers fear they could be the next to suffer as employers strive to reduce the cost of labour.
Their fears have been skilfully stoked by a trade union campaign that has been poorly countered by business leaders. The hallmark of that campaign has been emotion: trade union leaders refer repetitively to the “race to the bottom” and call for a “threshold of decency”. Their rallying cry is that the Irish Ferries dispute represents a watershed for Irish society, one that will determine whether Ireland tumbles down the path of greed, or reclaims a sense of good society.



Their stridency has undoubtedly touched a chord. Many thousands of Irish manufacturing workers have watched helplessly as their factories and their jobs have moved to cheaper locations, while the scale and pace of immigration is noticeable everywhere. The trade unions, however, are playing a disingenuous game.

The reality of the Irish economy is far different from the one they portray and the battle for the unions is not about the fate of the Irish Ferries workers, who have voted by an overwhelming majority to accept the company’s generous redundancy terms. As Peter McLoone, the president of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, said on Friday, the objective is to force the government to introduce further legislation to tighten already robust protections for workers.

Despite Friday’s turnout, the unions are a declining force in Irish society, with barely a quarter of the private sector workforce choosing union representation. That private sector has driven Ireland’s remarkable economic growth over the past decade and has created a million new jobs in a country that once exported its best and brightest. Irish wage levels are among the highest in Europe while Ireland’s minimum wage is the second-highest in the EU. There is no race to the bottom in Ireland: in fact the country’s high wage levels are not being matched by similar levels of productivity, and competitiveness is being lost each day. That is the greatest threat to Irish jobs. Oblivious to reason, the unions are demanding legislation that will shackle the economy with continental European norms.

Job displacement is a natural, albeit painful, process in every economy. The clear message for this economy is that the only way to secure jobs and growth is to continue to add value and increase productivity.

The government made a nod in that direction when it announced new funding for third-level and postgraduate education in last week’s budget, but the extra resources need to be matched by a sharp upgrading in the quality of Irish education at every level. Ireland’s universities do not figure in the top 100 in the world, and barely register in the top 200. Meanwhile, thousands of primary school children remain illiterate and innumerate after eight years of schooling.

The battleground should not be Irish Ferries, but the quality and productivity of the Irish workforce. Despite the blithe economic predictions of Brian Cowen, the minister for finance, there is no certainty that Ireland’s economic growth will outpace the European norm forever. The more expensive, and the less productive we become, the greater the threat to growth and to employment.

The government has so far refused to tackle the disinformation and fear tactics employed by the unions, and must now face the consequences of its inaction. Real fears have been aroused, and it is the government’s duty to calm them. The union movement’s demands, if conceded, will start a return to economic stagnation and rising unemployment. Its free run needs to be ended, and fast.

dathi1

Their stridency has undoubtedly touched a chord. Many thousands of Irish manufacturing workers have watched helplessly as their factories and their jobs have moved to cheaper locations, while the scale and pace of immigration is noticeable everywhere.

Harping on about accession state immigration?? The Horse has already bolted. These are the same Unions who pushed this eastern bloc expansion idea with no tariffs cut offs on unskilled immigration coming here in the first place! IBEC and Harney are delighted too! they argued for at least 50,000 more workers and we got 200,000+? The idea was to increase Union membership with new low wage workers which would feed into the super Union SIPTU et al higher echelon 120,000 euro coffers. These demonstrators have the wool pulled over their eyes again by their so called representatives. The race to the bottom as they call it was instigated by THEM. Everybody else is falling for the bull****.

BrianD

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

irish ferries =private company operating outside irish employment law jurisdiction
average monthly wage in latvia=115euro, wage per month with irish ferries@3.60hour for 40 hr week=576euro over 4 times wage in latvia,,no wonder they are happy to work there.why do you want to stop these people from improving their lives and earning good wages,you are depriving them of the right to provide for their families and to improve their home economy.
partnership=dead
market will decide wages from now on with a minimum wage,unskilled/semi skilledstaff such as those irish ferries wont be overpaid anymore.

Oh they were quite happy to be an Irish private company when they were benefiting from generous Irish tax breaks!!!

No one wants to stop free movement of labour within the EU however what Irish Ferries are doing is simply wrong. As far as I can see they are seeking to make these workers contract workers on ships that will be registered outside of the EU. This means that they will be in a "no mans land" where no EU employment law applies and its not the free movement of labour that was intended by the EU. So the market will not be deciding their wages as they are not working within a free market. If they were working under EU norms they would start at a minimum wage but eventually they would rise toward the EU standard.

The unions are right, in general, to protest but possibly wrong on the specific issues relating to Irish Ferries. I suppose in the past we've had companies that quietly closed down and shifted their operations to the next tax break or source of cheap labour. Where Irish Ferries are causing the afront is bringing the cheap labour here.

Anyway, if we're all for the freemarket why don't we remove the barriers that prevent Eastern European doctors, lawyers, dentists, computer progammers working here.

ronbyrne2005

BrianD wrote:

Oh they were quite happy to be an Irish private company when they were benefiting from generous Irish tax breaks!!!.

brian just cause they got tax breaks doesnt mean they should have to remain loyal to a country,every company they was here and moved to lower cost countries such as fruit of loom got same tax breaks,this is the reality of a globalised economy,maybe if people bought only made in ireland products we could keep jobs in ireland but people wont as these irish products would be much dearer

BrianD wrote:

No one wants to stop free movement of labour within the EU however what Irish Ferries are doing is simply wrong. As far as I can see they are seeking to make these workers contract workers on ships that will be registered outside of the EU. This means that they will be in a "no mans land" where no EU employment law applies and its not the free movement of labour that was intended by the EU. So the market will not be deciding their wages as they are not working within a free market. If they were working under EU norms they would start at a minimum wage but eventually they would rise toward the EU standard..

brian they are considering registering in cyprus which is in eu so there would be some minimum standards/conditions

BrianD wrote:

Anyway, if we're all for the freemarket why don't we remove the barriers that prevent Eastern European doctors, lawyers, dentists, computer progammers working here.

totally agree with you here

BrianD

Weren't Irish Ferries known as B&I the past? I recall they got quite a bit of state assistance in the past.

ALl Cypriots may be considered as EU citizens but EU laws do not apply to northern Cyprus (the self-declared Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus). Do we know what part of Cyprus the ships will be registered in?

Business may be business but we expect that companies in our country should act in a moral, ethical and responsible manner. What Irish ferries are doing is not, in my opinion, ethical or something desirable from a company. As a so called developed nation in the 21st century, I expect better. Whoever suggested that the directors of ICG were some sort of entrpeneurs should really reasses their values.

As the Manic Street Preachers sang "if you tolerate this then your children will be next".

rossious

billy the squid wrote:

a Cypriot company cannot call itself Irish.

What about all the Irish Pubs all over the world?? I was in an Irish Pub in France with one guinness logo? How Irish was that??? Sailing on the Irish sea, I think Irish Ferries is a fair name....

A serious question though if i may?
Givin this fact:

Other operators on the Irish sea have (wether you agree with it or not) re-flagged their vessels and employed foreign staff and operate with super low costs.

What can Irish ferries do?
- Fold, because face it or not, if their tickets aren't as cheap as the others they will not sell them and will go under within two years.

- Bring in cheaper labour and reduce costs, Like ALL of the other shipping companies have.

Lets face it there are no other options. I agree that this is not an ideal situation. We should have protested when companies first started doing this and stopped it then, but it is not realistic to think we can change the rules when the other companies have already gone through with the changes.

At the end of the day, we are giving jobs to these people, and they are happy. We judge these things by our standards, forgetting they they have different standards and a different work culture. Whatever any of us thing, they are happy to work for the salary and conditions.

Hagar

I don't know how mucj credance can be given to this publication but it might be worth a read.

http://www.swp.ie/socialistworker/2005/sw249/sw-249-6.htm

rossious

Hagar wrote:

I don't know how mucj credance can be given to this publication but it might be worth a read.

http://www.swp.ie/socialistworker/2005/sw249/sw-249-6.htm

Every issue has two sides. In the interests of being fair.....

http://www.irishferries.com/News/2005/05_11_29.shtml

BrianD

rossious wrote:

What about all the Irish Pubs all over the world?? I was in an Irish Pub in France with one guinness logo? How Irish was that??? Sailing on the Irish sea, I think Irish Ferries is a fair name....

That is a ridiculous analogy and it is disappointing that you would introduce it to discussion as serious as this. We all know that "Irish pub"= Irish themed pub. HArdly the same thing.

rossious wrote:

A serious question though if i may?
Givin this fact:

Other operators on the Irish sea have (wether you agree with it or not) re-flagged their vessels and employed foreign staff and operate with super low costs.

I understand that this is not the case with the other major ferry operator on the Irish sea. However, they will probably have to follow suit. Perhaps it's like the Irish banking industry where it appears that each bank takes it turn to announce some new unpopular practice in the industry.

What can Irish ferries do?
- Fold, because face it or not, if their tickets aren't as cheap as the others they will not sell them and will go under within two years.

- Bring in cheaper labour and reduce costs, Like ALL of the other shipping companies have.

Lets face it there are no other options. I agree that this is not an ideal situation. We should have protested when companies first started doing this and stopped it then, but it is not realistic to think we can change the rules when the other companies have already gone through with the changes.

At the end of the day, we are giving jobs to these people, and they are happy. We judge these things by our standards, forgetting they they have different standards and a different work culture. Whatever any of us thing, they are happy to work for the salary and conditions.

They could act in an ethical manner to start. They are treating labour i.e. people as some sort of commodity. They are creating an artificial situation that no matter what the 'cheap labour' do they will never be able to better their pay and conditions. Why? Beacause they are contract workers that may not be subject to EU law and the norms of a competitive labour market.

And yes I do judge things by our standards! We are aspiring to a better and equitable Europe! This is what we signed up for! Not a Europe where there is a 'them' and 'us'. A Europe where an exploitation of labour is allowed in the interest of satisfying shareholders? Where is your morality?!? To be quite honest it is more desirable for Irish Ferries to go out of business than allow their proposed practice to be accepted and eventually become the norm.

Cork

To be quite honest it is more desirable for Irish Ferries to go out of business than allow their proposed practice to be accepted and eventually become the norm.

The purpose of any business is to make a profit. Cutting costs to do so is nothing new. Labour is one such cost.

Irish ferries have now agreed to pay the mimimum wage. This is a big improvement to what they were offering.

We are living in a global economy. If you can manufacture something more cheaply elsewhere then companies move.

People shop in Lidl and Aldi and not too worried about buying products manufactured in Ireland. Are we to boot such shops out of the country?

BrianD

The purpose of any business is not solely to make a profit. Profit is certainly a motive or the outcome of business activity. Business is an activity undertaken within the community for the purpose of the provision of goods and services. Business activity serves a number of purposes within the community and the motivation for gain or profit does not negate its responsibilities to act in moral, ethical and responsible manner. Business and economy are for the people to benefit. Not the other way around.

ronbyrne2005

BrianD wrote:

They could act in an ethical manner to start. They are treating labour i.e. people as some sort of commodity. They are creating an artificial situation that no matter what the 'cheap labour' do they will never be able to better their pay and conditions. Why? Beacause they are contract workers that may not be subject to EU law and the norms of a competitive labour market.

And yes I do judge things by our standards! We are aspiring to a better and equitable Europe! This is what we signed up for! Not a Europe where there is a 'them' and 'us'. A Europe where an exploitation of labour is allowed in the interest of satisfying shareholders? Where is your morality?!? To be quite honest it is more desirable for Irish Ferries to go out of business than allow their proposed practice to be accepted and eventually become the norm.

labour is a commodity im afraid ,as long as labour supply exceeds demand for labour workers will not have power to be treated as anything other than commodities,businesses arent charities ,your pensions are invested in the shares of companies such as irish ferries,if they dont maximise profit your pension suffers.im not saying this is right but this is a fact and you cant change it.
the irish ferries scenario wont become the norm,the eastern european countries will catch up with us in terms of wages etc over next 2 decades,i agree we need to aspire to a better and equitable europe but with china india and other developing countries charging even less than eastern europe if we dont let the eastern europeans compete with their cheap labour then we wont have a europe with any sort of decent economy for our kids,we have to look at the european economy as a whole.
the eastern europeans can help the rest of europe to recover from its economic slump by offering cheap labour untill they catch up with pay rates in rest of europe.

BrianD

You don't have to accept the status quo. Change begins with the individual. It's not good enough to a say 'there's nothing we can do about it' because we can do something. Already we have seen that ICG have modified their plans due to public pressure i.e. individuals stating that this is not how we want business to be conducted (profit to be made etc.) in the community we live in.

However, I feel that the ICG situation is a little more sinister than taking advantage of the labour market while it adjusts. Of course there will be adjustment and wages in the east will come up to meet ours and probably ours will take a dip. It appears to me, ICG are going to register their ships outside the EU and use contract labour. The wages may seem attractive to those in the East (at first) but they may find themselves working outside the EU labour market. This is what is unethical.

Cork

BrianD wrote:

The purpose of any business is not solely to make a profit.

Yes it is the main reason.

We sell out labour.

Thats the way it always has been.

Elmo

Yes it is the main reason.

The main reason for a fair wage is so that we can live, pay bills etc. If business are unwilling to pay a fair wage how do we pay for there products.

Money makes the world go around.

People make money go around.

A Dub in Glasgo

It is the level of profit to the detriment of the workers that is the issue, not whether IF make a profit or a loss. IF can make a profit on the existing wage cost base, what they cannot do is make a bigger profit.

Elmo

It is the level of profit to the detriment of the workers that is the issue, not whether IF make a profit or a loss. IF can make a profit on the existing wage cost base, what they cannot do is make a bigger profit.

Indeed the same situation happend in the Irish Independent when their telesales staff for advertsing where layed off as the Indo out sourced to a call centre in Newry.

It just shows how motovation of staff really is a load of sh1t.

ronbyrne2005

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

It is the level of profit to the detriment of the workers that is the issue, not whether IF make a profit or a loss. IF can make a profit on the existing wage cost base, what they cannot do is make a bigger profit.

your obviously unaware of how economics/finance/business works, the operating profit figure is irrelevant its the return on capital emplyed which determines profitability. theres currentlya shortage of ships in asia,irish ferries are contemplating winding up and moving their ships to asia to get a better ROCE as they are obliged to do for their shareholders.if we adopted your economic theory then unemployment would be back to the rates of the 1980's.

A Dub in Glasgo

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

your obviously unaware of how economics/finance/business works

Really, so why don't you impart your *obvious* superior knowledge?

the operating profit figure is irrelevant its the return on capital emplyed which determines profitability. theres currentlya shortage of ships in asia,irish ferries are contemplating winding up and moving their ships to asia to get a better ROCE as they are obliged to do for their shareholders.if we adopted your economic theory then unemployment would be back to the rates of the 1980's.

What is an acceptable return? What is the lower limit on return before a company should fold?

Elmo

contemplating winding up and moving their ships to asia to get a better

Why don't they give their Workers a fair wage and also invest into the shipping industry in Asia, to support their small business in Ireland.

I have no problem with them going to Asia, they should prehaps already be in asia and at this stage a company providing shipping all around the world.

Just because they havn't invested money doesn't mean they can blame their workers wages.

Perhaps it's time the management stepped down. I wonder how much an eastern european manager would cost.

ronbyrne2005

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

What is an acceptable return? What is the lower limit on return before a company should fold?

the company pays 6%approx for the capital it uses in its business if it makes more than 6%approx it makes an economic profit, they are only making 3%approx return on capital employed it like buyinga shop for 100k with a loan with interest costing 6% a year and you only make 3k profit before paying your interest repayment of 6k ,its not economically viable

ronbyrne2005

Elmo wrote:

Why don't they give their Workers a fair wage and also invest into the shipping industry in Asia, to support their small business in Ireland..

"the fair wage is uneconomical.they wont move to asia and keep irish ferries operating as they dont have enough capital to do both"

Elmo wrote:

Just because they havn't invested money doesn't mean they can blame their workers wages.

they have invested but the operating enviroment has changed quicker than expected

Elmo wrote:

Perhaps it's time the management stepped down. I wonder how much an eastern european manager would cost.

if the eastern european manager is good enough/well qualified enough he will get same wage as current management,you see top management gets the market rate wherever they are from as few people can do their jobs but anyone can do unskilled/ lowly skilled and even skilled ship work.