Budget 2005

Tazz T

What would you like to see done?

I'm hoping to see most of it going into childcare ( at least 25% off creche costs or an equal tax credit) and healthcare - more medical cards for low earners and all child medical care made free. An extra tax credit for those with dependants would be cool.

Other things I'd like to see happen but probably won't.

I'd really like to see the complete end of stamp duty on credit cards atho I very much doubt this wll end. As it is, it's very difficult to implement the current legislation. I've given up trying to get a letter from MBNA saying that I paid my credit card duty for this year.

I'd also like to see tax credits for cohabiting couples to be on a par with those for married couples - again I don't expect this to happen.

Tax benefits for companies and individuals for investing in economic technologies, such as wind/solar power and penalties for those who don't would be nice, including a windfall tax on ESB and especially Eircom for not encouraging compeitition.

A new higher rate of tax for those earning in excess of 150000 say 50% especially those really high earners to manage to pay hardly any tax and in turn take more low income earners out of tax altogether. With regards to the Artists Exemption, this should only apply at a level of less than 50k a year and can be spread over periods of five years, ie you can make 1/4 a mill one year if you don't earn anything over the next four years.

ronbyrne2005

Tazz T wrote:

What would you like to see done?

I'm hoping to see most of it going into childcare ( at least 25% off creche costs or an equal tax credit) and healthcare - more medical cards for low earners and all child medical care made free. An extra tax credit for those with dependants would be cool.

Other things I'd like to see happen but probably won't.

I'd really like to see the complete end of stamp duty on credit cards atho I very much doubt this wll end. As it is, it's very difficult to implement the current legislation. I've given up trying to get a letter from MBNA saying that I paid my credit card duty for this year.

I'd also like to see tax credits for cohabiting couples to be on a par with those for married couples - again I don't expect this to happen. (this will never happen,how would you prove you were cohahabiting? flat mates could say they were cohabiting,its too open to abuse)
Tax benefits for companies and individuals for investing in economic technologies, such as wind/solar power and penalties for those who don't would be nice, including a windfall tax on ESB and especially Eircom for not encouraging compeitition. (i agree with tax breaks for eco friendly power but a windfall tax on esb? they are in bits financially! and government owns them so they'd be taxing themselves! also eircom doesnt make windfall profits!theres loads of competition in telecommunications!)

A new higher rate of tax for those earning in excess of 150000 say 50% especially those really high earners to manage to pay hardly any tax and in turn take more low income earners out of tax altogether. (the problem here is that there will always be ways of legally avoiding taxes because most of the tax avoidance is actually designed for comanies such as capital allowances ets and cant re gotten rid of.also if they are really rich they can merely become a tax exile, what needs to be done is to have a minimum tax for people earning over 100k regardless of capital allowances and other allowances and a law which states if your are clearly irish and derive a lot of your income here you have to pay tax here regardless of if your a tax exile, they can change tax laws/citizenship laws to do this) With regards to the Artists Exemption, this should only apply at a level of less than 50k a year and can be spread over periods of five years, ie you can make 1/4 a mill one year if you don't earn anything over the next four years agreed

Tazz T

The question was 'What would you like see done?' not a debate about why it should be done. If that was the case this would be longest, most argumentative thread in the history of boards.

ronbyrne2005

stop rich people avoiding tax with new legislation etc
spend loads more on public transport
build national chain of government owned creches with subsidised childminding depending on means test.
better public services
do something about property speculators driving up prices for young people ,tax on land speculation-if you make profits on rezoning of land then you pay half in a windfall tax.
basically more for the hard working average wage person and less for the rich and those who buy second homes and those paying little tax on their income.

Mimikyu

This post has been deleted.

shoegirl

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

Tazz T wrote:

(this will never happen,how would you prove you were cohahabiting? flat mates could say they were cohabiting,its too open to abuse)] agreed

This is actually a good point. I never thought of it that way.

Tazz T

I would assume the same way you 'prove' you've paid all your taxes for the year.

In Canada, for example, co-habiting partners are taxed as a couple after just three months.

For couples with children, it would be much simpler.

shoegirl

I think much of the problem with the budget is that we use generalisations that are indefinite. For example. The "low paid." Who are the low paid? People on the minimum wage? (This is what I would think of as low paid). But a lot of people on between that and the so-called "average industrial wage" probably also see themselves as "low paid." So we need to establish who the low paid are. Also a low paid single 18 year old fresh out of school still living with the mammy hardly has the same needs as a low paid immigré who is paying rent.

Likewise even seemingly similar groups can have very different circumstances. For example a lone parent who has been living in reasonable quality local authority accomodation is going to be a lot better off than a lone parent who is living in private rented accomodation since they have more choice about their future plans.

Another point is that a lot of money has been allocated in recent years to high need issues that have gone unspent.

For example:
200,000 doctor only medical cards promised - 1000 actually delivered
5,000 low cost homes - not 1 built
19 million allocated for housing schemes for those in long term receipt of rent allowance - very little of this spent and very few of those in need actually helped

Also we need to look at actual needs. For example I would say that a single income couple with children on an income of around 30k is in far greater need of assistance than a dual income couple on double that. Childcare is easy to talk about but is it not unfair that the one income couple gets nothing even though their income is lower? Such assistance needs to be highly directed and means tested. The Sure Start programme in the UK is a good example of such a programme. I don't see how giving millions of euros away, much of it to people who are already very wealthy indeed, is going to help those who really are struggling to cope. I would prefer to see a targetted initiative to bring in cheap or free childcare for those on social welfare to get them working again, and also for low income families - rather than simply giving handouts to everyone - including the very wealthy for whom it is just going to subsidise yet another fancy car or holiday home.

The income tax system shouldn't be tinkered with too much. Except maybe to set a limit on the actual amount of income that tax reliefs can be applied to. If this is set low enough it will stop the abuse of tax reliefs by the wealthy without hurting those who do need every cent they earn. I wouldn't even adjust the 42% tax band that much - a single person on 31k currently would take home €2141 a month after tax - to be honest that isn't bad for a single person.

Lastly I think the propsed 14 euros plus being suggested for unemployment benefit is unwise. I think one of the reasons that the country is flooded with eastern europeans on minimum wage to "modestly paid" jobs (ie. jobs paying 18-22k or so) is because it is not worth somebodies while coming off the dole if they are subsidised at more than 50% of the potential wage. If a single person is getting the dole at 148.80, and rent allowance of 80, plus has a medical card, this means taking a minimum wage job for a 40 hour week paying 292.48 after tax gives them only a net gain of 63.68 oer week! But if the dole goes up by 14 euros this gain is reduced to 49.68 per week. This effectively means that a single person living in private rented accomodation would enjoy a replacement rate of 83% - which will probably cause a steady rise in unemployment as people decided to sit on their bums rather than get an effective increase of €1.24 per hour for working!

Instead the money should be used to fund refundable tax credits for those on wages beneath 21k per year - like the UK Working Persons tax credit. Effectively this pushes up low income earners to make that in most cases work pays more than the dole. See http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/life/benefits/benefits_and_tax_credits_for_people_in_work.htm. Its a great system that encouraged a lot of people to stay in work rather than on the benefits system. Though admittedly the UK benefits system is at starvation levels compared to the Irish one.

dmeehan

its Budget 2006
see http://www.rte.ie/news/features/budget2006/

this site is a bit slow. can someone watching it post up the main points as they are announced. the webcast on the above site was going fine for a bit and then caved in :-(

Dr. Dre

yeah seriously, all the usual providers of streaming coverage are failing miserably to keep up :rolleyes:
This country :mad:

Kinetic^

I would like to see a reduction in the social welfare payments (which I've just heard did not happen), also like to see a big shake up in the stamp duty area.

I would like to have all of the people claiming social welfare be put through both physical & mental examinations to determine whether or not they are fit for work. If they're deemed fit for work then they should be given 3 months to find a job and then they're social welfare payments will be stopped. You should not be on the dole longer than 6 months, if you are, then they're is something up.

NotInventedHere

Keyser Soze 69 wrote:

I would like to see a reduction in the social welfare payments (which I've just heard did not happen), also like to see a big shake up in the stamp duty area.

I would like to have all of the people claiming social welfare be put through both physical & mental examinations to determine whether or not they are fit for work. If they're deemed fit for work then they should be given 3 months to find a job and then they're social welfare payments will be stopped. You should not be on the dole longer than 6 months, if you are, then they're is something up.

Ah sure why dont we get them working on some public works or roads to nowhere while we are at it.

GreeBo

NotInventedHere wrote:

Ah sure why dont we get them working on some public works or roads to nowhere while we are at it.

well dont you know,
thats the sound of the man,
working on the....

shoegirl

Keyser Soze 69 wrote:

I would like to see a reduction in the social welfare payments (which I've just heard did not happen), also like to see a big shake up in the stamp duty area.

I would like to have all of the people claiming social welfare be put through both physical & mental examinations to determine whether or not they are fit for work. If they're deemed fit for work then they should be given 3 months to find a job and then they're social welfare payments will be stopped. You should not be on the dole longer than 6 months, if you are, then they're is something up.

The whole point of social welfare is to give people a subsidance income while they cannot find work or are unable to work. Unfortuantely it is reaching the point where the actual value of social welfare exceeds the net value of even a generous salary in some cases. As a result work doesn't pay for a large number of people.

However you have to look at why this happens. If you have a leaving cert, some experience and maybe a few qualifications, you can start looking for jobs paying anything from the minimum wages probably up to around 30k or so. If you've better qualifications or experience then you might be looking for a job on around 35-45k - maybe more if you are very qualified. However if you don't have a leaving cert and limited experience, then you're going to find it difficult to get into a job with prospects and at best can be looking at entry level service jobs paying somewhere between 16k and 23k.

You have to take this into context. In many circumstances the net benefit of social welfare might not be very much less than what this person would earn. As a result there is not only no incentive to work - effectively these people are only going to get maybe 40-120 more for full time work than they will on welfare. A lot of people might go further and quantify this into working hours - who will go from zero work to hard work for 3 euros more an hour? Would you?

I agree that the fact that social welfare is endless may act as a disincentive to work. However if somebody genuinely cannot get a job is it fair to let them starve? I think a sliding system of social welfare would be preferable, where people get a higher replacement rate for the first 3 months, and then it gradually falls by about 10% over a period of time. If you were looking at a pay cut of 10% in 6 months time it would push you to look for a better job. Part of the problem is that social welfare is relatively high for those who might not be able to get well paid jobs, but also that they get no chance to improve their skills and experience in order to get a better job.

That in my estimation is why Ireland is full of eastern europeans willing to do lower paid work - the money is relatively high to them, many are saving for a future return home, and they are not entitled to social welfare.

Kinetic^

NotInventedHere wrote:

Ah sure why dont we get them working on some public works or roads to nowhere while we are at it.

...not!!

A great thing about Ireland at the moment is that employment is at an all time low,(exact figure I don't know) but I don't see why the tax payers money should go to lazy people who refuse to work.

Imagine if you were on the social welfare and you were told you were fit for work and that your dole was being withdrawn, you'd be out that day looking for a job, its all about survival. If the people on the social welfare feel that they don't need to go and work, they won't, if their lifeline is taken away from them then they'll have to find an alternative way of life, rather than sponging of the tax payers.

If the people on the dole were out working, it would have a knock on affect to all the other tax payers, either lower taxes or better facilities (maybe better health services but thats for another day).

GreeBo

shoegirl wrote:

However if you don't have a leaving cert and limited experience, then you're going to find it difficult to get into a job with prospects and at best can be looking at entry level service jobs paying somewhere between 16k and 23k.

Err can you point out theses jobs for me please?

Tazz T

Keyser Soze 69 wrote:

I would like to see a reduction in the social welfare payments (which I've just heard did not happen), also like to see a big shake up in the stamp duty area.

I would like to have all of the people claiming social welfare be put through both physical & mental examinations to determine whether or not they are fit for work. If they're deemed fit for work then they should be given 3 months to find a job and then they're social welfare payments will be stopped. You should not be on the dole longer than 6 months, if you are, then they're is something up.

Yeah, especially those single parents. If they can't find a job that enables them to pay rent, childcare and the costs of bringing their children, those children should be taken away and the parents made to work in McDonalds or worse where Keyser Soze works.:rolleyes:

Kinetic^

Tazz T wrote:

Yeah, especially those single parents. If they can't find a job that enables them to pay rent, childcare and the costs of bringing their children, those children should be taken away and the parents made to work in McDonalds or worse where Keyser Soze works.:rolleyes:

What i suggested was a very vague example, obviously we're going to have exceptions.

Less of the personal remarks too Tazz, I actually work in a very good firm.

ronbyrne2005

the single mothers that dont work and get the free accomodation childrens allowance etc will be delighted in the increases in childrens allowance lone parent allowance and the 1000 euro a year , more micky money for them for doing nowt but lie on their backs a few times

p.s these comments are aimed at those single mothers with several kids by different fathers no a mother/father with one kid

irishguy

GreeBo wrote:

Err can you point out theses jobs for me please?

http://www.irishjobs.ie/query_new.asp?IsProvince=1&MatchPerc=40&Ranking=&Roles=&Recruiter=Both&Category=23&Location=0&KEYWORDS=call+center&I7.x=0&I7.y=0

kangaroo

I don't see why payments such as disability benefit and allowance have to be exactly the same as unemployment payments. In the UK (and probably in some other countries), people with a disability or illness/disease which stops them working would get more than people who are fit and able to work but don't work for whatever reason. There can be a lot of extra costs in being disabled or ill enough that you're not able to work.

Tazz T

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

the single mothers that dont work and get the free accomodation childrens allowance etc will be delighted in the increases in childrens allowance lone parent allowance and the 1000 euro a year , more micky money for them for doing nowt but lie on their backs a few times

p.s these comments are aimed at those single mothers with several kids by different fathers no a mother/father with one kid

Mothers, single or otherwise, pay a valuable role in society - they bring up the next generation of the workforce. To say it's 'for doing nowt but lie on their back a few times' is an insult to them. It's hard work for sod all cash.

@Keyser

Not a personal attack on your company by any means - your post just doesn't make you seem like a very caring individual.

Nuttzz

Tazz T wrote:

Yeah, especially those single parents. If they can't find a job that enables them to pay rent, childcare and the costs of bringing their children, those children should be taken away and the parents made to work in McDonalds or worse where Keyser Soze works.:rolleyes:

Do you not think that if its more economical for someone to stay at home and live on welfare than it is for them to get a job then we have a problem?

Kinetic^

Tazz T wrote:

@Keyser

Not a personal attack on your company by any means - your post just doesn't make you seem like a very caring individual.

I just feel that people should start taking responsibility for their actions rather than looking to the government for handouts. I feel that the amount of social welfare payments made in this country is outlandish and the system needs to be reviewed.

Culchie

Keyser Soze 69 wrote:

...not!!

A great thing about Ireland at the moment is that employment is at an all time low,(exact figure I don't know) but I don't see why the tax payers money should go to lazy people who refuse to work.

Imagine if you were on the social welfare and you were told you were fit for work and that your dole was being withdrawn, you'd be out that day looking for a job, its all about survival. If the people on the social welfare feel that they don't need to go and work, they won't, if their lifeline is taken away from them then they'll have to find an alternative way of life, rather than sponging of the tax payers.

If the people on the dole were out working, it would have a knock on affect to all the other tax payers, either lower taxes or better facilities (maybe better health services but thats for another day).

Completely agree .... no reason for anyone to be on the dole now.

The only reason is because it makes financial sense to do so ....which in itself is the biggest criticism you could possible make.


Slash dole benefits after 3 months unemployment....plenty time to get a job.

Kinetic^

Culchie wrote:

Completely agree .... no reason for anyone to be on the dole now.

The only reason is because it makes financial sense to do so ....which in itself is the biggest criticism you could possible make.


Slash dole benefits after 3 months unemployment....plenty time to get a job.

Finally somebody who agrees with me.

Iagine if the government took half the money from the social welfare fund and put it into our health system, people wouldn't complain then.

GreeBo

Keyser Soze 69 wrote:

Finally somebody who agrees with me.

Iagine if the government took half the money from the social welfare fund and put it into our health system, people wouldn't complain then.

well with the way our health system is run that would probably get us a plaster and a new PSP.:cool:

Trampas

Culchie wrote:

Slash dole benefits after 3 months unemployment....plenty time to get a job.

Totally agree with you.

Whats the point in giving money back to people for childcare.

What will these people spend the money on?? Drink, cigs, holidays, cars??

Why does it count for every income. If you earn 100K you still get it.

It will encourage some people to drop a couple of more kids

Tazz T

I think you guys are missing the point of 'society'. There will never be full employment in any society - so someone will always lose out. If it's you, you certainly won't be the one going 'Cut off my only form of income after 3 months'.

As the working population, it is our job to look after those you can't look after themselves. Personally, if someone wants to stay on the dole and survive on 150 euro a week, that's up to them. I wouldn't like to do it and it leaves a job for someone who wants it.

And, jesus, someone has to look after society's kids whether that's a stay-at-home mother, a single mother, or a creche, it's our responsibiity to keep the country in good shape - that's why we pay taxes. Otherwise, we might as well say only those who can afford to have kids should have them.

Culchie

Tazz T wrote:

I think you guys are missing the point of 'society'. There will never be full employment in any society - so someone will always lose out. If it's you, you certainly won't be the one going 'Cut off my only form of income after 3 months'.

As the working population, it is our job to look after those you can't look after themselves. Personally, if someone wants to stay on the dole and survive on 150 euro a week, that's up to them. I wouldn't like to do it and it leaves a job for someone who wants it.

And, jesus, someone has to look after society's kids whether that's a stay-at-home mother, a single mother, or a creche, it's our responsibiity to keep the country in good shape - that's why we pay taxes. Otherwise, we might as well say only those who can afford to have kids should have them.

'Society' doesn't mean because some layabout is too lazy to get out of bed and get a job (thousands of them out there) that we should be paying for his upkeep, whilst we are up at 6.30am driving through crappy traffic etc...

'Society' means that you give this same individual every chance, training, support etc.... to better his life and that of his family by full time employment.
If he throws that back in your (and the Irish people's) face .... then fair enough he made his own decision, but sorry, it's paddle your own canoe time.

'Society' means look after those who need it, sick, handicapped, elderly ..... not throwing money at layabouts.

irishguy

Culchie wrote:

'Society' doesn't mean because some layabout is too lazy to get out of bed and get a job (thousands of them out there) that we should be paying for his upkeep, whilst we are up at 6.30am driving through crappy traffic etc...

'Society' means that you give this same individual every chance, training, support etc.... to better his life and that of his family by full time employment.
If he throws that back in your (and the Irish people's) face .... then fair enough he made his own decision, but sorry, it's paddle your own canoe time.

'Society' means look after those who need it, sick, handicapped, elderly ..... not throwing money at layabouts.

Agreed , put the money into Education and train the people. If they cant get a job get them one or make them sweep the roads for there money. There is no excuse for people who can work but dont, except if your taking care of childern/elderly/sick.