Cuba/CAstro

wiseones2cents

I found this link rather entertaining.

This comment also made me wonder.

Jeb bush said``I will take any criticism from Fidel Castro, of all people, as an honor given the fact that, you know, 8 million people, I believe, live on the island, 8 million people are repressed and they've been that way for 40 or 50 years,'' Bush said.

Now think about it?Who has repressed the Cubans? Was it Castro or America?
Who has imposed unjust sanctions on Cuba? Castro or America? Who wants
Imperial control of Cuba? Castro or America?

The answer to these questions is? America.

Here's the Link:http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20051206%

ronbyrne2005

if castro's regeime was so bad those 8 million people would rise up against him
the fact he's still in power after 50 years demonstrates he isnt as repressive as jeb bush suggests

netwhizkid

Castro's Country is actually one of the best in thew world and light years ahead of us and the yanks. They have the best health care system in the world and their country didn't plunge in anarchy when they got hammered by the same Hurricanes that hit Bush country.

Winning Hand

netwhizkid wrote:

They have the best health care system in the world

Please elaborate. Dont assume that because cuban doctors have done an excellent job with what they have that their health care is anywhere near the west

netwhizkid

Haven't you ever seen james bonds Die another day, that whole film explains cuba.

netwhizkid

netwhizkid wrote:

They have the best health care system in the world

Snigger.

I bet if you say it often enough, you may believe it.

They have good cigars. And they fared better than some other left wing foul ups, like Ceacescu's Romania. That's about the total of Cuba's 'success'...

As for Castro being in power for 50 years, does that not suggest to anyone that there may be a teensy weensy little issue with the concept of free elections...or do you honestly think he's the one politician in the world who was just so gosh darn popular that noone opposed him all these years...

gandalf

netwhizkid wrote:

Haven't you ever seen james bonds Die another day, that whole film explains cuba.

OK anymore of these kind of comments and I will be using my license to kill !!!!

Ray777

Deleted User wrote:

As for Castro being in power for 50 years, does that not suggest to anyone that there may be a teensy weensy little issue with the concept of free elections

All the more reason for Cubans to rise against him. Why haven't they though?

lazydaisy

Castro initially appealed to the people because his predecessor was a US puppet called Baptista. He proclaimed that he would take Cuba back from America. He did not tell the people about his communist plans until a year into his leadership. The policy was this: join the communist party or die. But plenty of people did die. Of course, Guevara helped out with this, not being Cuban himself, perhaps didnt feel so bad about shooting them. So with a gun to your head, chances are you will join the communist party. He then instituted a policy which allowed you $200 in your bank account and the govnerment would confiscate the rest. So, if any of you know how to translate $200 into what that means today, please do, I dont know how to do it. He then confiscated property of all shapes and sizes. Having grown up around Cuban refugees, I can relate some stories to you. My closest friend's mother came over to the US on the boats in the 70s with nothing but her wedding photo which she hid in the bun of her hair. Why? Because Castro took everything. Soldiers turned up at the door and took their belongings. Her husband owned a bodega, a spanish term for newsagent. Castro took that too. So they landed in the US with nothing. But given how repressed Ireland has been, Im not sure that these things would seem that bad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Cuba

patzer117

the best healthcare system in the world? i remember hearing they had the best education system in the world. though cuban's make the tests and deliver the results.

as for not revolting against great ol' castro, well nobody seems to have revolted against great ol' kim from North Korea, therefore everyone loves him and he is a great leader :rolleyes: . If everyone loves them so much then why do people leave en masse for florida in small rafts, risking their lives just to get out of the country?

Cuba is an oppressed country with no free speech, democracy, and it has a dodgy human rights record. Any country which tries to promote democracy there should be praised, not criticised.

wiseones2cents

lazydaisy wrote:

Castro initially appealed to the people because his predecessor was a US puppet called Baptista. He proclaimed that he would take Cuba back from America. He did not tell the people about his communist plans until a year into his leadership. The policy was this: join the communist party or die. But plenty of people did die. Of course, Guevara helped out with this, not being Cuban himself, perhaps didnt feel so bad about shooting them. So with a gun to your head, chances are you will join the communist party. He then instituted a policy which allowed you $200 in your bank account and the govnerment would confiscate the rest. So, if any of you know how to translate $200 into what that means today, please do, I dont know how to do it. He then confiscated property of all shapes and sizes. Having grown up around Cuban refugees, I can relate some stories to you. My closest friend's mother came over to the US on the boats in the 70s with nothing but her wedding photo which she hid in the bun of her hair. Why? Because Castro took everything. Soldiers turned up at the door and took their belongings. Her husband owned a bodega, a spanish term for newsagent. Castro took that too. So they landed in the US with nothing. But given how repressed Ireland has been, Im not sure that these things would seem that bad.

Now here is some Info you wont find in Elitist Encyclopedias. I'll keep it short.

Cuba was a haven for Mobsters(Especially Lansky a jewish Mobster which later gave other mobsters a slice) and Crooked American Politicians, that had Invested heavily in gambling, prostitution,night clubs, strip joints,ect...Leaving much of Cuba in Poverty.

Castro was fed Up. Gained support. Over through Baptista the American puppet. Then to hold on to power he had to route out all the American Influences that were coruptting his country. So he went on a purge.

Later the Mob together with the CIA(Government hitmen) tried numerous times to assassinate Castro to Aquire their illegal Opperations back and failed.

Castro was left in Power. John F. Kennedy was pressured to go to invade Cuba, Bay Of Pigs and failed Miserably. The mob and crooked politicians were pressuring Kennedy for an all out Invasion of Cuba. Kennedy Refused. Kennedy was Assassinated. Rumour has it Kennedy figured out the CIA was crooked.There were also other things that were going behind the scenes that are irrelevant to this discussion.

It was later discovered Castro had about 7-9 Operative Nuclear war heads aquired from Russia. If they had Invaded, America would have paid dearly.

America sanctioned the island ever since. America wants its little gold mine back.

I dont know if you know this by Guevara is a ICON and HERO In South America. Who was killed by the CIA.

And as far as Taking all the money and giving each $200? That Balanced the wealth. Many were lucky if they had $5 prior to that in the bank.

Cuba would have been doing fine If America did not sanction them. It is the closest Island to America and a Vacation paradise. And America knows it.

So If you want to blame the Plight of the Cubans. Look no further than America.

wiseones2cents

Deleted User wrote:

Snigger.

I bet if you say it often enough, you may believe it.

They have good cigars. And they fared better than some other left wing foul ups, like Ceacescu's Romania. That's about the total of Cuba's 'success'...

As for Castro being in power for 50 years, does that not suggest to anyone that there may be a teensy weensy little issue with the concept of free elections...or do you honestly think he's the one politician in the world who was just so gosh darn popular that noone opposed him all these years...

Castro knows that as soon as he has elections. Americans will finance his opponents heavily and establish a puppet government like they do all over the world. And then take care of him.

lazydaisy

Wiseonetwocents-

Everything you say is correct but everything I said is also correct. I dont consult elitist encyclipedias. I grew up among Cubans who fled Castro and heard first hand accounts. Cuba had the largest middle class [remember its a small island and that is a per capita]in the western world at the time. It is not true that before Castro people only had $5. Nonsense.

Castro is not going to have elections. He doesnt do elections. When he dies his brother will take his position.

I know all about the Bay of Pigs and the missile crisis. You're mistaken. Kennedy agreed to the Bay of Pigs. He sent them in. By them, I mean a military made up of Cubans and promised hed back them up with American troops, but he didn't, he left them there to die.

Did you read 14 days by RFK? If not, you should.

The economy would be much better without the US embargo that is true, but the plight of Cubans is the fault of Castro. They didn't start emigrating and dying until he took their lives away from them. But seriously, are you going to enhance the profits of a government which had nuclear warheads aimed at you? I dont think so.

America has learned its lessons in how it treated latin america as a back yard. And yes, Cuba was filled with Casinos and American corruption, ie the mob, but truly I don't think people would let that happen again. The Cuban lobby is way too powerful in the US and it doesnt want Americas hands all over Cuba either.

Guevara is not a universally worshipped icon in Latin America. But yes for many he is seen as a hero. But he is still a killer. No amount of worship will change that.

athena 2000

netwhizid wrote:

Haven't you ever seen james bonds Die another day, that whole film explains cuba

gandalf wrote:

OK anymore of these kind of comments and I will be using my license to kill !!!!

Please do. You can borrow my silencer.

Cuba currently places second (96%) in its literacy rate ranking among Latin American countries. Argentina takes precendence. (In 1961, within Cuba, literacy was defined as being able to write a letter to Castro.)

The current Cuban government inherited their high quality health care system, which existed before the revolution. Interesting Cuban-related website.

I imagine the sugar production cartels would be more interested than the US government in influencing or controlling Cuba's resources if it were to become a democracy, though this is my own speculation.

homeOwner

wiseones2cents wrote:

Now here is some Info you wont find in Elitist Encyclopedias. I'll keep it short......

Everything you have said is common knowledge and well documented as fact. You are not enlightening us in any way. Why do you think this would be a news flash for anyone. No one here was saying that this didnt happen.

However, it is also a fact that the majority of Cubans are living in dire poverty. The sanctions against cuba began when Castro nationalised all the oil companies costing countries such as the US and UK billions, the trade embargo happened during the missile crisis. Cuba has got a world class health and eductation system, in fact many western europeans go to Cuba for cheap operations because their reputation is so good. However, there is no freedom of speech, freedom of movement, freedom of religion or freedom to start your own business. Cuba is a country of many contradictions and complex problems which were directly caused by both the US and Castro himself.

BrianD

So what is Castro's Son Raul like? He is supposed to succeed Fidel. Will he be more open?

I get the impression that while Cubans may not like Castros rule they prefer it to being a puppet of the US like Puerto Rico.

homeOwner

Raul is Castro's brother, not his son. According to books I have read, he is even more of a communist than Castro, but that could be just because Castro downplayed his ties to communism when he was trying to gain power so as not to threaten the revolution, while Raul addmitted to being communist early on as did Guevara.

FTA69

One thing I feel I need to address are comments surrounding emigrants to the USA, it is worth noting that many of these who take rafts etc to America are often deluded with images of the "land of oppurtunity", "streets paved with gold" etc, when in reality they will probably end up living in a sordid Miamia slum, and the upbringing for their children there will be far from idyllic.

It is not true that before Castro people only had $5. Nonsense.

According to UNICEF, 98% of Cubans have sanitation, all infants are immunised, literacy is 97% which is higher than the USA, life expectancy is 77which is about two decades higher than before the Revolution.

http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/cuba_statistics.html

America has learned its lessons in how it treated latin america as a back yard

Really, why then were they up to their necks in an anti-Chavez coup two years ago?

Guevara is not a universally worshipped icon in Latin America. But yes for many he is seen as a hero. But he is still a killer.

Your point being?

At the end of the day Cuba has achieved wonders with the terrible situation they had, and despite the most powerful state in the world repressing them for half a century. The system there works, compare it with any of its capitalist neighbours, it even outstrips the USA in many respects. True, democracy there is limited but nevertheless they have a thriving local democracy in existance, and I don't see how anybody would expect an open state when Cuba has been bombarded with invasions, sanctions, propaganda and assasination attempts for decades.

homeOwner

lazydaisy wrote:

Castro initially appealed to the people because his predecessor was a US puppet called Baptista.

His name was Batista.

lazydaisy wrote:

Of course, Guevara helped out with this, not being Cuban himself, perhaps didnt feel so bad about shooting them. So with a gun to your head, chances are you will join the communist party.

It was not a case of join or we will shoot you. Guevara had members of the old army guard shot after the revolution in a series of "trials" in order to ensure they did not turn on them as they were seen to be loyal to Batista. He wanted to ensure that all the army was loyal to the revolution (which makes sense if you have just taken over the country in a revolution - doesnt mean I agree with it) so they were all lectured on communism. Some rejected it and were jailed or killed, others simply left the country along with alot of wealthy people in the early days of the revolution. But to say that the army or Guevara went around the country forcing john q public to become communists or they were shot is not documented anywhere. I would like to see where you heard that. And why would not being cuban affect his moral standing on whether or not to kill someone.

lazydaisy wrote:

So they landed in the US with nothing. But given how repressed Ireland has been, Im not sure that these things would seem that bad.

[/QUOTE]
I'm not even going to comment on this.

Boredinwork

There is plenty right and wrong with cuba like any other country, I spent 3 weeks traveling around it last year, thought it was a amazing county.
Stayed in Cuba's houses and drank with them and like any country meet some great people and also some chancers!!!!

One thing I will say about Castro and Gervera the interest lay with the people collectively. Gervera while he was a murderer and killer may innocent people always stuck with his socialist beliefs. He upped and left his family to fight in the Congo, and Bolivia for what he believed in and it eventually cost him his life. He could have stayed in Cuba and lived the life of a king where he was worshipped. If you look at the rest of south America is Cuba any worse of that capitalist Peru, Brazil, Mexico. They have massive crime, poverty and repression. There is almost zero crime in Cuba, while there is poverty, nobody is starving. Currently most of Cuba’s problems are caused by the US embargo which is way outdated. What possible treat could Cuba cause to the states. Yea Fidel should open up his borders to more trade and tourism, and agree to a lifting of the embargo with the US. But he is an old man stuck in his ways. Change will only come when he dies. Don’t forget Spain was lead by a dictator until the 70’s that’s not that long ago. The talk in Cuba anyway is that Raul will succeed him and create a more open economy. While I’m not trying to defend Castro I’m just trying to portray some of the good thing about Cuba because of capitalism.

I’ll leave ye with one recent example that shows how socialist Cuba served its people better that capitalist America. During the recent hurricane season many of the hurricanes that affect the US also hit Cuba. The worse was probably Hurricane Katrina which caused looting, anarchy and devastation to the city of New Orleans. A few thousand people were killed and the American government ignored many of its poorest citizens (Mainly black) until there was outcry in the country. Cuba on the other hand pre-empted the effect of the hurricane evacuated thousands of it people and there was very little loss of life. Now tell me which government better served there people in this case??

Boredinwork

Boredinwork wrote:

Now tell me which government better served there people in this case??

There once was a fire in a house in Cuba and 5 people died. Meanwhile, a housefire in Miami caused no deaths because the fire brigade got there in time.*

* Yes, I'm being completely facetious. The Katrina comparison is a nonsense. I mean, I guess people living in grass huts would have less chance of being struck by masonry than people in New Orleans. Or people living in hilltop jungles might not be as badly hit as those in $1 million euro prime New Orleans river front property...:rolleyes:

homeOwner

Boredinwork wrote:

Yea Fidel should open up his borders to more trade and tourism, and agree to a lifting of the embargo with the US.

The US have imposed the embargo, not Cuba. Fidel has no power to lift it. It trades openly with any country that will trade with it. It gladly accept US tourists into the country. There is no ban on tourism into Cuba. It is the US that forbids its citizens to go to Cuba and to trade with Cuba (unless you receive special permission from the government). In fact Cuba are so open to US tourists, they put the entry visa stamp thingy on a seperate piece of paper instead of on the passport so americans wont have problems with the US authorities when they go back home.

Now allowing its citizens out of the country is another issue........

Boredinwork

There is plenty right and wrong with cuba like any other country, I spent 3 weeks traveling around it last year, thought it was a amazing county.
Stayed in Cuba's houses and drank with them and like any country meet some great people and also some chancers!!!!

One thing I will say about Castro and Guevara the interest lay with the people collectively. Guevara while he was a murderer and killer may innocent people always stuck with his socialist beliefs. He upped and left his family to fight in the Congo, and Bolivia for what he believed in and it eventually cost him his life. He could have stayed in Cuba and lived the life of a king where he was worshipped. If you look at the rest of south America is Cuba any worse of that capitalist Peru, Brazil, Mexico. They have massive crime, poverty and repression. There is almost zero crime in Cuba, while there is poverty, nobody is starving. Currently most of Cuba’s problems are caused by the US embargo which is way outdated. What possible treat could Cuba cause to the states. Yea Fidel should open up his borders to more trade and tourism, and agree to a lifting of the embargo with the US. But he is an old man stuck in his ways. Change will only come when he dies. Don’t forget Spain was lead by a dictator until the 70’s that’s not that long ago. The talk in Cuba anyway is that Raul will succeed him and create a more open economy. While I’m not trying to defend Castro I’m just trying to portray some of the good thing about Cuba because of capitalism.

I’ll leave ye with one recent example that shows how socialist Cuba served its people better that capitalist America. During the recent hurricane season many of the hurricanes that affect the US also hit Cuba. The worse was probably Hurricane Katrina which caused looting, anarchy and devastation to the city of New Orleans. A few thousand people were killed and the American government ignored many of its poorest citizens (Mainly black) until there was outcry in the country. Cuba on the other hand pre-empted the effect of the hurricane evacuated thousands of it people and there was very little loss of life. Now tell me which government better served there people in this case??

lazydaisy

The reason that Cuba could evacuate its citizens before the hurricanes and the US couldnt is because the US is a federalist system. Would people please get this- the national government does not have the legal right to force people out of their homes. That is why they couldnt act. The governer of Lousiana should have signed over permission to the federal government, but she didnt because shes an idiot. Castro on the other hand has unlimited rights on what he can do to his people.[A few thousand were not killed.That number is wrong. In fact most of what you said about Katrina was wrong]

Yeah yeah. I know all about the myths of streets paved with gold, blah blah, being born to immigrants myself. You have all these fantasies of what life is like in America. Its funny. Slums in miami. I guess you've watched Scarface too many times. Im very close to calling you a racist, but I wont.

Yes its true. Its the US which makes it impossible for Americans to visit Cuba. Cuba doesnt have a problem with US visitors because it needs the dollars. Funny that isnt it? This is living proof of what happens to communist countries when there is no capitalist money to be spread around.

What threat can Cuba cause the US? Probably none anymore. But they did face nuclear weapons at the US and you have to take historical memory into account when you look at relationships. And the very potent Cuban lobby which is determined not to give any money to Castro's regime is also behind it.

Yeah, the Chavez coup. America was up to their necks in it. Uh huh.

Any Cuban who fled Cuba in the 60s or 70s will tell you: It was join the communist party or die.

wiseones2cents

lazydaisy wrote:

Wiseonetwocents-

Everything you say is correct but everything I said is also correct. I dont consult elitist encyclipedias. I grew up among Cubans who fled Castro and heard first hand accounts. Cuba had the largest middle class [remember its a small island and that is a per capita]in the western world at the time. It is not true that before Castro people only had $5. Nonsense.

Seeing that there was Gambling and Prostitution, I'd say the population was not as successful as you suggest. Gambling causes Povert and poverty causes prostitution.

Although I'm sure many were employed in the Tourism Industry. It is the Closest and most Frequented Island.(Due to cost and proximity to America).Also one of the first(If not first)legal gambling establishments.

Castro is not going to have elections. He doesnt do elections. When he dies his brother will take his position.

I have explained why. Americans would finance his opponenet and easily win.
At first Castro had support of the people or he would have never been able to Defend the island. Now they would vote against him because of the harsh conditions imposed by American sanctions.

I know all about the Bay of Pigs and the missile crisis. You're mistaken. Kennedy agreed to the Bay of Pigs. He sent them in. By them, I mean a military made up of Cubans and promised hed back them up with American troops, but he didn't, he left them there to die.

The Invasion was supported for and planned by the CIA.Who do you think supplied them with the weapons?But yes. American troops did not go in.

The economy would be much better without the US embargo that is true, but the plight of Cubans is the fault of Castro. They didn't start emigrating and dying until he took their lives away from them. But seriously, are you going to enhance the profits of a government which had nuclear warheads aimed at you? I dont think so.

The Economy would be BOOMING without the US Embargo. Its Location is a gold mine. So how is it the Fault of Castro? Yes. It was American Aggression that caused Cuba to seek them. America's oldest excuse was that they are communist. Although America does business with every other communist nation in the world. America just wants its imperial claws in Cuba. Its Like an Army that surrounds a castle and waits for their food to run out, to conquer it. But Castro has stood the test of time, under the severest conditions.

America has learned its lessons in how it treated latin america as a back yard. And yes, Cuba was filled with Casinos and American corruption, ie the mob, but truly I don't think people would let that happen again. The Cuban lobby is way too powerful in the US and it doesnt want Americas hands all over Cuba either.

America has learned its lesson? Its financing coups to overthrow Venenzuela's President. It has puppet governments throughout South America.It runs a Gigantic drug network(VIA CIA) through all of South America, right through Mexico to the States.

Guevara is not a universally worshipped icon in Latin America. But yes for many he is seen as a hero. But he is still a killer. No amount of worship will change that.

I guess it depends on what side of the coin you are on.

wiseones2cents

homeOwner wrote:

Everything you have said is common knowledge and well documented as fact. You are not enlightening us in any way. Why do you think this would be a news flash for anyone. No one here was saying that this didnt happen.

However, it is also a fact that the majority of Cubans are living in dire poverty. The sanctions against cuba began when Castro nationalised all the oil companies costing countries such as the US and UK billions, the trade embargo happened during the missile crisis. Cuba has got a world class health and eductation system, in fact many western europeans go to Cuba for cheap operations because their reputation is so good. However, there is no freedom of speech, freedom of movement, freedom of religion or freedom to start your own business. Cuba is a country of many contradictions and complex problems which were directly caused by both the US and Castro himself.

The Only reason Castro over threw Batista in the very first place is American Coruption. And the Only reason Castro has a tight grip on Cuba is Corupting American Influence. So America is the SOLE Cause of All of Cuba's Problems.

lazydaisy

I dont get it. If capitalism is failing so badly then who would have the money to trade with Cuba? You are confusing me.

He had the support of the people because he lied to them. They didnt want Americas hands all over the island. But they didnt want communism either.

America doesnt trade with Cuba because of historical memory and the Cuban political lobby. We all know it has nothing to do with communism. America does huge trade with China.

Yeah the CIA planned and supplied the invasion. Who ran the CIA? Kennedy and McNamara.

So your basically saying that America is what put Castro into power? Then you should be loving America.

CJhaughey

lazydaisy wrote:

Yeah, the Chavez coup. America was up to their necks in it. Uh huh.

I thought this link was pretty funny, a lesson from Venezuela on how to look after your weakest citizens.
A lesson that the US still hasn't learned.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/oil/story/0,11319,1661812,00.html?gusrc=rss
and BTW didn't Castro do some deal with Venezuela recently where he is sending doctors in exchange for oil?

lazydaisy

That is so funny. What a PR tactic. Very clever.

CJhaughey

I thought this was the telling statement.
:Congressman Jose Serrano, who helped put the discounted heating oil programme together, said he was trying to do the best for his community. "To those folks who say that this is a way for Hugo Chávez to score political points, I invite every American corporation that wants to score points with my community, to start scoring points this afternoon," he told reporters at a ceremony to launch the cheap oil deal in the Bronx.