The Brewery

meldrew

Just saw the News and Star about the massive new shopping complex proposed for the Stephen St , Michael St area , the developers are being very optimistic with their timeframe of 3 years .
I wont mention his name because it only gives him publicity but a certain failed Green Party politician must be rubbing his hands with glee at all the attention he'll attract when he objects to it .

decies

Yeah at least six i would say.it depends on what kind of shops goes into it i suppose as well .
Mind you if i was a retailer paying big rents in city square i would not be too happy.
It might attract more people from kilkenny and wexford to shop in waterford and stop those people going to cork and dublin to shop,mind you am not convinced of how the traffic would flow into the general area.
No doubt the green party will have a field day!!!!!

Aquos76

Just after reading the article on the front of the News and Star, must say it looks and sounds fantastic. Hopefully it will get through the planning process and that work commences on it asap.

Brendan, if you are reading this, We the people of waterford ask of you, for once in your sad lonely life please keep your nose out of this Planning application and for once do something good for our city.....

Freddie59

Leonard wrote:

Just after reading the article on the front of the News and Star, must say it looks and sounds fantastic. Hopefully it will get through the planning process and that work commences on it asap.

Brendan, if you are reading this, We the people of waterford ask of you, for once in your sad lonely life please keep your nose out of this Planning application and for once do something good for our city.....

Fat chance I'd say L.:rolleyes:

meldrew

Leonard wrote:

Just after reading the article on the front of the News and Star, must say it looks and sounds fantastic. Hopefully it will get through the planning process and that work commences on it asap.

Brendan, if you are reading this, We the people of waterford ask of you, for once in your sad lonely life please keep your nose out of this Planning application and for once do something good for our city.....

Some hope I'd say he's getting paid off by Kilkenny Co . Council to stop development in Waterford as revenge for the boundary proposal

Sandals

any links to any sites other than news and star.?

googie

meldrew wrote:

Some hope I'd say he's getting paid off by Kilkenny Co . Council to stop development in Waterford as revenge for the boundary proposal

Kilkenny people have no problem with development in Waterford, it's great to see a city in the South East developing like that.
The problem with the boundary proposal is not to do with stopping Waterford devolopment, it's just about Waterford development IN Kilkenny. Personally I find it bizarre how they can propose to extend the border like that, and would find it very strange to suddenly be living in Waterford without having moved an inch. I have no dislike for Waterford, but that's not where I'm from. The two counties should be able to work well together to develop the are to its full potential, but neither seem to be able to compromise on that, which is a shame. The people of both counties should be campaigning for the councils in both counties to co-operate instead of fuelling the fire for a pointless argument with these constant jibes.

merlante

googie wrote:

Kilkenny people have no problem with development in Waterford, it's great to see a city in the South East developing like that.
The problem with the boundary proposal is not to do with stopping Waterford devolopment, it's just about Waterford development IN Kilkenny. Personally I find it bizarre how they can propose to extend the border like that, and would find it very strange to suddenly be living in Waterford without having moved an inch. I have no dislike for Waterford, but that's not where I'm from. The two counties should be able to work well together to develop the are to its full potential, but neither seem to be able to compromise on that, which is a shame. The people of both counties should be campaigning for the councils in both counties to co-operate instead of fuelling the fire for a pointless argument with these constant jibes.

Here we go again!

The proposal is about business. It's ridiculous that a city can develop in one direction but not in another because some other authority gets to take the revenue accruing from the business and spend it off in some distant county town. The current system is a joke! Bloody county boundaries will be the death of Waterford yet!

merlante

Leonard wrote:

Just after reading the article on the front of the News and Star, must say it looks and sounds fantastic. Hopefully it will get through the planning process and that work commences on it asap.

Brendan, if you are reading this, We the people of waterford ask of you, for once in your sad lonely life please keep your nose out of this Planning application and for once do something good for our city.....

Hopefully!

I agree, would he accept bribes do you think? I only wish I had the nerve to do murder for the greater good.

googie

merlante wrote:

Here we go again!

The proposal is about business. It's ridiculous that a city can develop in one direction but not in another because some other authority gets to take the revenue accruing from the business and spend it off in some distant county town. The current system is a joke! Bloody county boundaries will be the death of Waterford yet!

What's so wrong with this area developing as part of Kilkenny, which is what it is? I really don't understand why Waterford people think that this area has to be part of Waterford just because it's developing as a result of being close to the city. That's greed on the part of Waterford people. I do, however, agree that Kilkenny County Council are neglecting this area somewhat and need to pay more attention to it as the fastest growing part of the county. Like I said berfore, co-operation between the two counties is what's needed, not land-swopping.

Oh yeah, and on your very intelligent point about Waterford revenue going to distant county towns in Kilkenny....maybe we should all stop shopping in Waterford tomorrow and see how Waterford revenue is affected??

Mossy Monk

googie wrote:

What's so wrong with this area developing as part of Kilkenny, which is what it is? I really don't understand why Waterford people think that this area has to be part of Waterford just because it's developing as a result of being close to the city. That's greed on the part of Waterford people. I do, however, agree that Kilkenny County Council are neglecting this area somewhat and need to pay more attention to it as the fastest growing part of the county. Like I said berfore, co-operation between the two counties is what's needed, not land-swopping.

Oh yeah, and on your very intelligent point about Waterford revenue going to distant county towns in Kilkenny....maybe we should all stop shopping in Waterford tomorrow and see how Waterford revenue is affected??

now find a thread suitable for this rant

googie

ok, ok. just don't be associating us with Brendan

Sooner or Later

Read the article and it sounds like a tremendous development for the city.


Alas, the chances of Brendan not objecting are slim to zero.

Bards

googie wrote:

What's so wrong with this area developing as part of Kilkenny, which is what it is? I really don't understand why Waterford people think that this area has to be part of Waterford just because it's developing as a result of being close to the city. That's greed on the part of Waterford people. I do, however, agree that Kilkenny County Council are neglecting this area somewhat and need to pay more attention to it as the fastest growing part of the county. Like I said berfore, co-operation between the two counties is what's needed, not land-swopping.

Oh yeah, and on your very intelligent point about Waterford revenue going to distant county towns in Kilkenny....maybe we should all stop shopping in Waterford tomorrow and see how Waterford revenue is affected??

and do you not think it is greed by Kilkenny Co Co to have a "City" of their own from which they get rates and are now trying to get rates which should belong to Waterford City as it is on the periphery of the economic entity and should be spent in the area.

I gaurantee if Kilkenny is allowed to develop this area not one cent will be spent in the area from which Kilkenny Co Co collect their rates.... That is the crux of the matter, and it is also why most people living in the area affected are in favour of comming under Waterford City.... To Have money spent on services in their area

How many of each of the following were provided by Kilkenny Co Co for the area

Libraries
Infrastructure
Play areas
Footpaths & Lighting

I rest my case

merlante

googie wrote:

What's so wrong with this area developing as part of Kilkenny, which is what it is? I really don't understand why Waterford people think that this area has to be part of Waterford just because it's developing as a result of being close to the city. That's greed on the part of Waterford people.

Waterford City is expanding, as is Kilkenny, and almost every other town and city in the state. How would you feel if Kilkenny expanded over a boundary and part of the city revenue started going to some distant county town? How would you feel when you tried to get the boundary changed to rectify this and the inhabitants of the other county started calling you names like "greedy" and "land grabbers", etc.?

Waterford City was established long, long before county boundaries. It shouldn't have to worry about stupid boundaries, and they should be changed where they don't make sense. (I won't even start on Kilkenny suggestions that Ferrybank be set up as a rival city!)

googie wrote:

I do, however, agree that Kilkenny County Council are neglecting this area somewhat and need to pay more attention to it as the fastest growing part of the county. Like I said berfore, co-operation between the two counties is what's needed, not land-swopping.

Kilkenny are the ones that refuse to co-operate. "Not an Inch": I rest my case.

Why is it the fastest growing part of the county? Because it's part of Waterford City.

googie wrote:

Oh yeah, and on your very intelligent point about Waterford revenue going to distant county towns in Kilkenny....maybe we should all stop shopping in Waterford tomorrow and see how Waterford revenue is affected??

You could, but then you're all moving to the northern suburbs of Waterford in huge numbers probably for the shopping and services. Then again, maybe you're all just there for spectacular views...

merlante

Sooner or Later wrote:

Read the article and it sounds like a tremendous development for the city.


Alas, the chances of Brendan not objecting are slim to zero.

There *must* be something that could be done about him...

kilkennycat2004

googie wrote:

Kilkenny people have no problem with development in Waterford, it's great to see a city in the South East developing like that.
The problem with the boundary proposal is not to do with stopping Waterford devolopment, it's just about Waterford development IN Kilkenny. Personally I find it bizarre how they can propose to extend the border like that, and would find it very strange to suddenly be living in Waterford without having moved an inch. I have no dislike for Waterford, but that's not where I'm from. The two counties should be able to work well together to develop the are to its full potential, but neither seem to be able to compromise on that, which is a shame. The people of both counties should be campaigning for the councils in both counties to co-operate instead of fuelling the fire for a pointless argument with these constant jibes.

Of course your right Google.
That Waterford boundary plan would have to be redrawn again anyway, if WCC decides to proceed that is, as they forgot all about 5 townlands belonging to Kilmacow & Mooncoin, a mere 5,000 acres!!
KKC have now responded to this "land grab" attempt which is surely doomed to failure anyway.

Here's the KK response, at a cost to KCC of 100,000K which really they should, & hopefully eventually will, be able to blil WCC for.

FOR INFORMATION PURPOSES ONLY

Executive Summary of the Statement of Response by Kilkenny County Council
Having considered the proposal made by Waterford City, and having assessed all other relevant aspects, Kilkenny County Council now formally rejects the Waterford City boundary extension proposal.
The key objections held by Kilkenny County Council to the proposed boundary extension are that:-
1. The boundary extension proposed by Waterford City Council is not required to provide land for future development as the City already has substantial land available within its existing boundary.
In particular:-
 Within Waterford Citys current boundaries, 1,599 ha (3,950 acres) or 38% of the Citys land area, is zoned for agricultural use. Much of this agricultural land was incorporated into the City in 1980, when it was granted a boundary extension into County Waterford, on the basis that the City then required additional space for development;
 The new Outer Ring Road will provide much improved access to this undeveloped land, thereby eliminating any suggested barriers to its development. Recent press statements from Waterford City Council say that this new road will open up these lands and facilitate the construction of circa 6,000 houses as well as commercial development;
 In addition to its agricultural land, the City already has sufficient land zoned for residential use to accommodate its projected population growth to at least 2021 and possibly to 2030;
 Furthermore, 50% of the land currently zoned for industrial use within the City remains available for development, and
 If the Citys proposal for a boundary extension were to be granted, Waterford City would have a much greater land area and a far smaller population than other Gateway cities. For example, at present Cork City has a population almost three times that of Waterford City, yet it has a land area smaller than that of Waterford. If the boundary extension were granted, Waterfords population density would then be 7.6 persons per hectare (or 3.0 persons per acre) whereas other Gateway cities typically have densities four times greater than this.
Waterford City clearly has ample space for planned development far into the future.

2. Key National and Regional Development Strategies currently in place promote the principle of co-operation between the relevant local authorities, not boundary changes, to achieve national, regional and local development objectives.
In particular:-
 The National Spatial Strategy (NSS) provides for a development framework in the South East region that is based on the Waterford/Wexford/Kilkenny growth triangle that requires these centres to work together in a co-ordinated and integrated approach that builds on their complementary strengths;
 The Waterford Planning Land Use and Transportation Study (PLUTS), adopted in 2004 by Waterford City Council and Kilkenny and Waterford County Councils, specifically states that the three authorities will agree on how best to co-operate on implementation issues, to agree on appropriate joint monitoring and review structures;
 The South East Regional Planning Guidelines (SERPG) endorsed the PLUTS and went one step further by proposing that an implementation group be set up to deliver a consistent approach across administrative boundaries;
 One of the central arguments put forward by Waterford City in proposing the boundary extension involves the concept of developing a compact city. In this regard, the European Commissions European Spatial Dimension Perspective (ESDP) recommends that in order to achieve a compact city co-operation between the city and the surrounding countryside must be intensified;
 Inter-authority co-operation in the South-East region has already been demonstrated by activities such as the development and adoption of a regional waste management plan and regional planning guidelines and specifically between Waterford City and Kilkenny in the planning and development of the Citys main drainage scheme.
Clearly the co-operative approach as sought consistently by Kilkenny County Council is the favoured approach at European, National and Regional levels. However, this level of co-operation has not been matched by Waterford City Council. Examples include its reluctance to engage in the development of Belview Port and also to engage on the implementation issues associated with PLUTS.

to be continued......

kilkennycat2004

.............3. The National Spatial Strategy envisages that Waterford Citys role as a Gateway be delivered through collaboration and co-operation with Kilkenny City and Wexford Town, not through an expansion of the Citys boundary.
The NSS designated Waterford as a Gateway City, and says The strategies should focus on the practical realisation of the gateway or hub. In some cases, more than one local authority may be involved. However, provision has been made in the Planning and Development Act 2000 and in the Local Government Act 2001 for the preparation of joint plans and the use of joint committees between adjacent local authorities to address cross boundary issues, including transportation. (NSS pp123)
The NSS clearly supports a collaborative inter-authority approach.

4. The boundary extension proposal, if granted, would seriously undermine the financial position of Kilkenny County Council.
If the proposal were granted:-
 Kilkenny County Council would lose €1.8 million annually of its income from commercial rates and other sources;
 Being an efficient Council, Kilkenny has only minimal opportunities to secure cost savings. Achievable savings are €0.7 million per annum which is only a fraction of the costs of providing services in the area. These savings, combined with the income losses would result in an annual net loss to the County of €1.1 million;
 Recovery of these losses would require an increase in the rates charge of over 20% for the remainder of Kilkenny County.
 In addition, Waterford City projects that the boundary extension would result in a net cost to it of €0.7 million in year 1. The impact of the extension would be a 28% increase in rates for businesses in the proposed extension area arising solely from the Citys higher rates charge plus a 5% increase in rates across the extended City to fund the €0.7 million increase in annual costs.
Furthermore, in recent years Kilkenny County Council has invested substantial amounts of its own resources in developing the roads, water, waste water and other services in the area. The people of Kilkenny are entitled to benefit from this investment through new business and employment investment, with the associated income benefits, particularly in the Belview Port area.

It is evident that the Citys assertion that a boundary extension would assist in securing the long-term financial base for the City is contradicted by Kilkenny County Councils analysis. The proposal would result in greatly increased costs for both the City and Kilkenny County and provide no improvement in services to the people or businesses in the area.
Waterford City should address its financial issues through appropriate action within its existing boundaries and not by securing resources from a neighbouring County.

5. Kilkenny County Council has a strong vision for the future of the County as a whole, and is implementing its vision in individual areas such as the South of the County where it is:-
 Implementing good forward planning;
 Rezoning lands to support balanced residential, community, commercial and industrial development;
 Providing the infrastructure to enable these developments to take place;
 Implementing its policy of providing additional new community facilities;
 Co-operating with Belview Port in implementing its strategy for growth and providing it with the necessary services and infrastructure; and
 Consulting and co-operating widely with various agencies and the public.

In contrast to this approach, Waterford City has put forward no vision for the area, nor has it submitted any alternative approach to planning and development in the area.

6. Kilkenny County and its people have a unique and clear social, cultural and sporting identity.
Kilkenny has developed a successful economy based on developing the unique aspects of the county ranging from the built heritage of Kilkenny City, to the attractiveness of its countryside for tourists and to the development of the potential of Belview Port to attract investment and employment.
To grant Waterford Citys proposal would seriously alter the social and cultural structure of Kilkenny and its balanced development approach and replace it with an enlarged Waterford City whose proposal for a boundary extension has failed to demonstrate any benefit to the people in the area, the business and commercial interests in the region or the Country as a whole.
The boundary extension proposal, if granted, would undermine the structure of the County, including South Kilkenny, as the boundary extension area is the second largest urban area in the County, after Kilkenny City. It would also see the area changing county and province and this would result in a very significant change to the areas community and social identity.
The boundary extension proposal contains a number of inaccuracies and inconsistencies.
In particular:
1. According to the proposal, the proposed boundary extension encompasses an area of 1,901 ha, equivalent to 4,695 acres. However, Kilkenny County Council has assessed the proposed boundary extension area as shown in maps contained in the proposal and finds that it actually contains a total of 2,359 ha (5,827 acres), an additional 458 ha (1132 acres) or 24% more than that presented in the text of Waterford Citys proposal, and
2. The proposal states that the extension sought is made up of all or part of 20 townlands, whereas the map included with the proposal shows an area that covers all or part of 25 townlands. The five additional townlands are Granny, Dunkitt, Luffany, Ballymountain and Strangsmill.


Conclusion
The proposal for a boundary extension by Waterford City:
1. Is not needed to provide development capacity in the City,
2. Runs contrary to the current regional, national and international best practice approaches to planning and development which are based on inter-authority co-operation, not boundary changes,
3. Makes no financial sense,
4. Demonstrates absolutely no vision or practical benefits for the people and businesses in the area,
5. Is based primarily on the Citys financial interests, not on its potential contribution to developing the area in particular, or the South-East region as a whole.
6. Would alter the community, cultural and sporting identity of the area and the County, and
7. Would not provide for convenient and effective local government.
Waterford City Council should be willing to engage with the other local authorities to a much greater extent in the planning and development of the South-East region as a whole.
Kilkenny County Council therefore rejects the proposal for a boundary extension.

meldrew

merlante wrote:

There *must* be something that could be done about him...

Unfortunately thats one of the downsides of living in a democracy , he uses the planning process to widen his profile .
Like him or loath him almost everyone in the city has heard of him and thats what he wants

Jambo

merlante , me originally from fbank i totally accept your argument !

merlante wrote:

Waterford City is expanding, as is Kilkenny, and almost every other town and city in the state. How would you feel if Kilkenny expanded over a boundary and part of the city revenue started going to some distant county town? How would you feel when you tried to get the boundary changed to rectify this and the inhabitants of the other county started calling you names like "greedy" and "land grabbers", etc.?

Waterford City was established long, long before county boundaries. It shouldn't have to worry about stupid boundaries, and they should be changed where they don't make sense. (I won't even start on Kilkenny suggestions that Ferrybank be set up as a rival city!)



Kilkenny are the ones that refuse to co-operate. "Not an Inch": I rest my case.

Why is it the fastest growing part of the county? Because it's part of Waterford City.



You could, but then you're all moving to the northern suburbs of Waterford in huge numbers probably for the shopping and services. Then again, maybe you're all just there for spectacular views...

kano476

blah blah blah blah jesus why does every waterford development thread have to end up talking about f*cking kilkenny?

London is spread across a load of different counties yet no bullsh*t.

cant wait for the new shopping centre although hopefully i wont be living in this country by the time it opens.

Cabaal

kano476 wrote:

blah blah blah blah jesus why does every waterford development thread have to end up talking about f*cking kilkenny?

Its generally the waterford people that bring Kilkenny into it and once again start the debate, :v:

merlante

Cabaal wrote:

Its generally the waterford people that bring Kilkenny into it and once again start the debate, :v:

Not this time, in any case. We'd rather complain about McCann, if you don't mind, rather than we spammed by KKCC propaganda.

merlante

kano476 wrote:

blah blah blah blah jesus why does every waterford development thread have to end up talking about f*cking kilkenny? London is spread across a load of different counties yet no bullsh*t. cant wait for the new shopping centre although hopefully i wont be living in this country by the time it opens.

Greater London is actually a regional authority, but then London is rather large! It is government policy at the moment to have the regional cities of Limerick, Galway and Waterford contained within their boundaries, although this is glaringly not the case in Limerick and neither is it in Waterford. There is plenty of space in Waterford's boundary, but not on the northside, and the city is moving north, as it has to to make service provision affordable. Whether we like it or not, people are moving in to the Ferrybank area and beyond.

Meldrew, yes we do live in a democracy. But I don't believe that all publicity is good publicity, which is what you seem to be saying. I think that if enough people know about him and what he's doing, he will be under a lot of pressure to stand down, and maybe even the law will get changed. Up till now, he's being getting away with murder because the ordinary person has not put 2 and 2 together and figured out that it is this one man that is destroying development in Waterford. If he can't get something stopped, he'll at least get it halved in size, and that's not good enough! The cinema in railway square will be considerably smaller than envisaged because of his activities! The same thing happened to the new Ard Ri plan and could easily happen to the plan for the new shopping centre!

deisemum

I sent an email to Trevor Sargeant recently complaining about the professional objector. I got a snotty email back along the lines that if I don't like the professional objector I should stand for election myself.

Just mentioning that plonkers name incites hatred. Surely he could be charged with incitement to hatred, I wish.

I really hope this plan goes through. I wouldn't have to travel to Cork on a regular basis if we get M&S. This development will improve Waterford.

merlante

deisemum wrote:

I sent an email to Trevor Sargeant recently complaining about the professional objector. I got a snotty email back along the lines that if I don't like the professional objector I should stand for election myself.

Just mentioning that plonkers name incites hatred. Surely he could be charged with incitement to hatred, I wish.

I really hope this plan goes through. I wouldn't have to travel to Cork on a regular basis if we get M&S. This development will improve Waterford.

That's a disgrace, Sargent saying that. He is representing them and he is carrying out his own private agenda, they should bloody well take notice. Maybe the Green Party could be embarassed in to distancing themselves from him. About 2 years ago the local Green Party tried to fire him as their spokesman, but they managed to sort it out between themselves. It's a pity more of big deal wasn't made about it.

Indeed, I think we're all agreed on that.

meldrew

There has to be some way that the people of Waterford stood up to McCann and told him where to go , although from listening to the radio yesterday morning there seems to be no shortage of objectors if he decided to step down .
On the issue of the e-mail from Trevor Sargant he seemed to totally miss the point of why the person was complaining to him . McCann has stood for election a few times and the people have said no to him , yet he seems to be in a stronger position outside of the City Council than if he was on it .
The only answer seems to be a change in the planning laws to stop individuals from holding back projects because plenty of other areas have their own brendan McCanns

googie

merlante wrote:

Waterford City is expanding, as is Kilkenny, and almost every other town and city in the state. How would you feel if Kilkenny expanded over a boundary and part of the city revenue started going to some distant county town? How would you feel when you tried to get the boundary changed to rectify this and the inhabitants of the other county started calling you names like "greedy" and "land grabbers", etc.?

Waterford City was established long, long before county boundaries. It shouldn't have to worry about stupid boundaries, and they should be changed where they don't make sense. (I won't even start on Kilkenny suggestions that Ferrybank be set up as a rival city!)



Kilkenny are the ones that refuse to co-operate. "Not an Inch": I rest my case.

Why is it the fastest growing part of the county? Because it's part of Waterford City.



You could, but then you're all moving to the northern suburbs of Waterford in huge numbers probably for the shopping and services. Then again, maybe you're all just there for spectacular views...

I haven't moved anywhere, I was born in Kilkenny, next to boundary proposal area, and still live there. Neither have I any intention of moving to a "northern suburb of Waterford"

googie

meldrew wrote:

Some hope I'd say he's getting paid off by Kilkenny Co . Council to stop development in Waterford as revenge for the boundary proposal

a

googie

merlante wrote:

Not this time, in any case. We'd rather complain about McCann, if you don't mind, rather than we spammed by KKCC propaganda.

Yes this time......see above

deisemum

Well, does anyone know has the serial objector done the expected and lodged an objection?

I only heard a bit on the news about some Waterford business man complaining about serial objectors but didn't get the full story.