Anyonw wnat to hazard a guess?

SpitfireIV

Hi guys,

As a collector of militaria and local history objects, ranging mainly from 1798 up to about WW1, I've seen many a thing and have a small collection myself, the below item I recieved recently and I'm a bit stumpted as to setting a date on it, I have been given a year by the seller and I'd sure as hell like to think it was from then, in fact I'd love to know for sure that it was from that period. I'd like to hear what a few of ye on here maybe think of it first though before I give my opion.

Its a crudely made dagger/knife, 31ins long. The handle part is crudely cast in a very light pot metal perhaps with maybe a little tin in it too. As I mentioned, its cast and thus very rough and a lot of filings and shaping marks present.

The blade is about 1mm thick midpoint and seemed to have been roughly hammered to shape and as you can see in the picture below isnt a perfect shape, ie, the curves dont match and the straight edge goes in and out.

All these would point towards a homemade piece, its ametuer, but very old and has a nice patina. So what is it?? Something I should take great care of or maybe I've been conned, I know it could be from anywhere or anytime, the seller did claim it came from Waterford. But does anything about it strike you? Any comments greatly appreciated.








Thanks for your time,

CroppyBoy1798.


Moderators: I know this thread is about a dagger, be it antique or not, therefore if the topic should perhaps breech any rules or be unsuitable then please remove it. Thanks.

Sandals

you must be drunk to type such a terribly typed title and yet such a coheret message.

SpitfireIV

Jeez, I just noticed the subject line, jeez, thats terrible, no, lol, I'm not drunk, arghh and I cant change it, lol.

Degsy

It looks like a DIRK which is a (usually scottish)dagger designed to be worn on a belt or in a sock.It looks like it was never made to actually cut anything and so its probably ceremonial.Its almost impossible to age but the shape of the handle is similar to the handles on fire-irons from the victorian period so it "might" date from then.There's also a chance that the handle and blade were made seperatly and joined together at a later date.I reckon somebody made this as a nixer!

Wibbs

I tend to agree with Degsy. It's very crudely made and doesn't have any real patina on it excepting the blade, which as it's likely to be ferrous would pick up that staining in short order. Even an amateur hand would surely make it a lot better, especially if it's was old(I've seen "amateur" daggers that were far better made). The blade is off center, the handle very crude.

It might be only be a few years old. If it was any older I'd expect to see more wear on the handle and a level of oxide that I don't see in your photo(could just be the photo though). I dunno, to me it just "looks" wrong.

SpitfireIV

Guys, thanks a million for the replies, very interesting stuff and thanks for sharing it.

Heres what I think, and what I was told (although I take that with a grain of salt)

As the dagger/dirk is extremely crudely made, with a simple hammered and shaped blade, a very roughly cast handle and all the signs of a home made job. Is it possible that it could have originated from 1798? You have to take into account that at this time Irish Catholics were not allowed to own weapons of any shape or form and with talk of rebellion and the organising of the United Irishmen weapons were needed, the only way to get these weapons was to make them at home or have a blacksmith make them, thus he would be throwing things out as quick as possible, pike heads, daggers, slash hooks etc etc, not the kind of thing that you'd want to have got caught making back in them days, so they would have been fairly quickly made.

Perhaps that story would explain the ametuer attempt of the item, it wasnt made for show or ceremonial use, but with one intention in mind, simple and effective.

I'd like to think it was from that era, but I guess we'll never know for sure. Thanks again for the reply guys .

CroppyBoy1798

Wibbs

It's possible, though a blacksmith made piece would likely have a far better blade. Any blacksmith back then would have hammered out a useable blade in seconds. The part that makes me suspicious is how the handle is attached to the blade itself. Knives with seperately made handles use a system where the tang on the blade is inserted into the handle. If you look at yours the blade is off center which may suggest no tang at all, which would leave you with a very weak dagger, more suited to a ceremonial role.

I would reckon that if you're building knives quickly you would forge the blade and while hot, insert it into a simple wooden handle, which would have been far easier than making a mould, casting the metal and then attaching it. Why go to the bother of making a crude blade and then cast a better made handle? Equally you could forge the blade and handle together, which would speed up the process even further. Back then people were used to everything being "handmade" and making things themselves, so most items while crude to our eyes would have been symmetrical and well suited to their purpose.

Still though, you never know. Did it come with any provenance, or did the guy who sold it just tell you the story?

Degsy

Wibbs wrote:

It's possible, though a blacksmith made piece would likely have a far better blade. Any blacksmith back then would have hammered out a useable blade in seconds. The part that makes me suspicious is how the handle is attached to the blade itself. Knives with seperately made handles use a system where the tang on the blade is inserted into the handle. If you look at yours the blade is off center which may suggest no tang at all, which would leave you with a very weak dagger, more suited to a ceremonial role.

I would reckon that if you're building knives quickly you would forge the blade and while hot, insert it into a simple wooden handle, which would have been far easier than making a mould, casting the metal and then attaching it. Why go to the bother of making a crude blade and then cast a better made handle? Equally you could forge the blade and handle together, which would speed up the process even further. Back then people were used to everything being "handmade" and making things themselves, so most items while crude to our eyes would have been symmetrical and well suited to their purpose.

Still though, you never know. Did it come with any provenance, or did the guy who sold it just tell you the story?

I've been wrackeing my brains and i know where i've seen that type of dagger before..they used to be on sale in various types of shops n the seventies as "classy daggers",they ususually had a wooden scabbard and tehy were either made in the design or a curved "kukri" style,also with a wooden scabbard.They're still available in various holiday resorts and suchlike,sometimes with tassels and things hanging from them.

SpitfireIV

Degsy wrote:

I've been wrackeing my brains and i know where i've seen that type of dagger before..they used to be on sale in various types of shops n the seventies as "classy daggers",they ususually had a wooden scabbard and tehy were either made in the design or a curved "kukri" style,also with a wooden scabbard.They're still available in various holiday resorts and suchlike,sometimes with tassels and things hanging from them.

Thanks for the reply Wibbs and Degsy,

Degsy I think I know the kind of daggers you're talking about, but somehow or another I dont think what I have could be passed off as 'classy', its far from it . There is a big trade in the likes of India for churning out aged replicas, anything from knifes, swords, flintlock pistols and muskets to nautical items, these are the type of thing you mean, right? You can get them out foreign very easy and there are a few shops here that deal in it, selling items like below:


They're new, but still made to look old etc.

I'll throw in another few pics of the knife in question:





Wibbs,
The blade off off centre slightly, yes, but as you can see in the diagram below there is possible scope and room for a tang, even though, it is off centred (dont worry, it was a PaintShop Pro job ):

The tang could go right the way to the end, as maybe as you say it is possible there is no tang at all, I'll probably never know that.

I dont know, I still have faith in this piece and think its very old. There is no 'right and wrong' way to make a knife or sword, each had there own prefrence I guess, maybe one prefered to cast a blade and put it on a wooden handle, perhaps another (like mine) moulded a former for the handle from an old fire iron or something so all he had to do was clamp the blade into the mould and pour in the metal to form the handle. Maybe it was a one off piece, an ametuer trying to make something a little better for himself with a nice fancy handle ....we'll never know.

CroppyBoy1798

Charis

How is the balance? It looks like it might be full tang when you see the photo of the base of the pommel. Could be full tang but hard to tell from a pict. The handle stills looks a bit suspicious especially when hearing the theory on the blacksmith. One point to note is that sometimes blades are messed up by people who attempt to sharpen them incorrectly taking away from the original appearance. Still it is always fun to speculate. Where are the shops that deal in stuff like the above picts. My husband is starting a sword collection, and he is most interested in rapiers. Unfortunately, it all cost money!

SpitfireIV

Hi Charis, and thanks for the reply.

The balance is, well, its as you can see in the pic below I guess , so more or less where the blade meets the handle:


It has me puzzled and I think one of the first major factors that people have about it and the first thing they notice is the handle and the colour of the handle, people think its plastic, that its painted, :rolleyes: but really its thats color, even when you scrape it a little, its not a plating or such.

The items in the pic you mentioned I bought in a shop in Ballina, I havent seen them anywhere else unless there are shops that sell that that I dont know of, I'm sure there has to be some around Dublin. There's a link there and thats the kind of stuff that was in the shop I was in. I dont know if you can buy things from the site, but I'm not sure, I'd imagine they only supply shops, but I'll be finding out.

http://www.hhandco.com/index.html

Regards,

CroppyBoy1798.

Charis

Thanks for the info. The piece is certainly interesting. If only these items could talk and tell us their story. I can see why you wonder about the authenticity.