Are you going into march today?

egan007

I'm not a trade union member. In fact i have issues with some of the things trade unions do. How and ever they are useful in their capacity to organise large groups of people to protest.

It's a long time since any significant amount of people in Ireland stood together. This gathering means more than the Irish Ferries workers rights.

I think the gathering is great. We spend most of our time these days complaining about the price the availability the accessibility of everything. We often gather in small groups but together as one we have the capacity to demonstrate that it's the people who hold the power. In a day when corporate power is the king that we must bow to it's time we showed the power of unity.

I'll be there - will you?

DadaKopf

It's a long time since any significant amount of people in Ireland stood together.

It was, what, two years ago when 100,000 people protested against the war in Iraq.

I'd like to be able to join the day of action, but I cannae.

Nuttzz

They should have done it on Saturday if they wanted people out, Newstalk is full of people ringing if to say they would if they could...

egan007

Yes indeed - but i mean in regard to an Irish Issue

RobEire

Nuttzz wrote:

They should have done it on Saturday if they wanted people out, Newstalk is full of people ringing if to say they would if they could...

I know of one company that has threatened its staff with disciplinary action if they go on this march today.

Weekend would have been a better choice.

egan007

Nuttzz wrote:

They should have done it on Saturday if they wanted people out, Newstalk is full of people ringing if to say they would if they could...

sure but the idea is to stop working....

I myself am working today - I'm lucky to have an employer that respects me develops, pays and educates me...however he also will not make a fuss about me taking 2 hours off to join the masses..... this is what we need more of.

egan007

RobEire wrote:

I know of one company that has threatened its staff with disciplinary action if they go on this march today.

Weekend would have been a better choice.

This is exactly why they need to go - what will they do fire them all?
Without people there are no companies

DadaKopf

If they did it on the weekend, it wouldn't be a union work stoppage. On the other hand, it's a risk if not enough people turn out. At the same time, employers will probably always be able to claim the amount of protesters was unrepresentative no matter what size.

I think the unions/protesters should also be telling concerned citizens and residents to write letters to their TDs, to lobby where it counts. I'm pro-union, but relying on unions as an essential part of the partnership triad does end up excluding non-union members who also need union-like representation. It's becoming harder and harder to unionise.

Also, joining a trades union is a Human Right, companies shouldn't be able to threaten like that, and considering the day of action is also a form of political expression it's also a Human Right enshrined in Irish law.

gazzer

i work in the civil service but have had no word from my union (PSEU) on what workers in that union should do today.. i also have workmates who are in the CPSU union and again they have been given no direction on what to do today.. im lucky in that i can take my lunch break up till 2.30pm and i work in town so i am going to go along for about 45 minutes.. but i wonder if there are other civil servents on boards who have gotten instruction from their union??

MrPudding

DadaKopf wrote:

Also, joining a trades union is a Human Right, companies shouldn't be able to threaten like that, and considering the day of action is also a form of political expression it's also a Human Right enshrined in Irish law.

I don't think the poster siad they were being prevented from joining a union. He said the employer threatened disciplinary action if they left work to take part in the march. I presume this would be similar to the disciplinary action you would be face if you left work in the middle of the day cos you felt like it.

Does you right to join a union extend to the right to impact on your employers business for a protest by a union which may or may not be the union you joined?

MrP

netwhizkid

I myself Marched in Cork today and there was about 12,00 people there, and it was great to see all the proletariats up in arms to take on the capitalist fat cats in Irish Ferries and in Government. A day of National Strike should be next as well as a general consensus to bring Decency back into Irish Society. The 100,000 people in Dublin should march out to Kildare and pay Mr. Charlie McCreevy a visit and challenge him on his proposed European Services Directive that would legally allow migrant workers to be paid their own rates. Eg. A Polish Labourer could be payed whatever is the Polish Minimum rate or the going rate. This would bring the Irish Working Class to its knees and will cripple our economy if Introduced, and imo if it is we should quickly have a referendum and withdraw from this Imperialist Europe which was not what we signed up to 30+ years ago.

DadaKopf

Does you right to join a union extend to the right to impact on your employers business for a protest by a union which may or may not be the union you joined?

Yes. You obviously don't understand trade unionism and solidarity.

I know what you're saying, but it's also true that the day of action was designed to make a point about the way the national partnership agreement seems to be going. Irish Ferries is just the thin end of the wedge. In this case, I would say that a company threatening disciplinary action on unionised employees who are protesting to defend workers' rights and living standards, which itself is a human right, hasn't a leg to stand on. Well, shouldn't have a leg to stand on.

But our legal system of rights is all over the place when it comes to justice in the workplace.

Time Magazine

The company has to cut all costs, including labour, to survive.

We simply cannot stop them moving to anywhere they want. The members were offered redundancy or else they'll be let go without it. That's the reality, they can't afford it.

And we shouldn't be able to stop companies moving; it might "suit us" this time, but expect quite a fall in FDI if you try. And also it's against any sort of decent law, people and their companies have a right to move.

It's either something or nothing.

Ray777

Angry Banana wrote:

The company has to cut all costs, including labour, to survive.

Bullshit. They're already making a profit. They just want to make more, at the expense of their workers.

Time Magazine

Right, let's try put to together a hypothetical situation for you:

Year 1: Sales: €10m, Profit: €1.5m
Year 2: Sales: €7m, Profit: €0.1m
Year 3, as of now: Sales: €5m, Profit: ?

Profit has to be forecasted. If a company is not profitable they cease to exist and all jobs are lost. That's the way it goes. If you expect to make a loss, changes have to be made to avoid it, legally. Maybe not this year, but definitely in the next year or two, Irish Ferries will start losing money unless they restructure. Is it a pre-requisite for you for a company to wait to suffer before they make a decision, or is a pre-emptive move where resources for a generous redundancy deal are available so abhorrent to you?

Cronus333

netwhizkid wrote:

I myself Marched in Cork today and there was about 12,00 people there, and it was great to see all the proletariats up in arms to take on the capitalist fat cats in Irish Ferries and in Government. A day of National Strike should be next as well as a general consensus to bring Decency back into Irish Society. The 100,000 people in Dublin should march out to Kildare and pay Mr. Charlie McCreevy a visit and challenge him on his proposed European Services Directive that would legally allow migrant workers to be paid their own rates. Eg. A Polish Labourer could be payed whatever is the Polish Minimum rate or the going rate. This would bring the Irish Working Class to its knees and will cripple our economy if Introduced, and imo if it is we should quickly have a referendum and withdraw from this Imperialist Europe which was not what we signed up to 30+ years ago.

Its amazing how much I disagree with you. couldn't the EU just make a standard minimum wage for all member states? One step closer to a USE(United States of Europe):D

luckat

Would it save more money to replace the management with cheaper Latvian managers?

parsi

gazzer wrote:

i work in the civil service but have had no word from my union (PSEU) on what workers in that union should do today.. i also have workmates who are in the CPSU union and again they have been given no direction on what to do today.. im lucky in that i can take my lunch break up till 2.30pm and i work in town so i am going to go along for about 45 minutes.. but i wonder if there are other civil servents on boards who have gotten instruction from their union??

The PSEU just informed members of the times/locations. I went along but then again I was off on Friday afternoon. Despite Ma Harneys moanings in Saturdays papers I dont expect that many people went along without being on leave etc.

Andrew 83

Angry Banana wrote:

The company has to cut all costs, including labour, to survive.

We simply cannot stop them moving to anywhere they want. The members were offered redundancy or else they'll be let go without it. That's the reality, they can't afford it.

And we shouldn't be able to stop companies moving; it might "suit us" this time, but expect quite a fall in FDI if you try. And also it's against any sort of decent law, people and their companies have a right to move.

It's either something or nothing.

That's ludicrous. It's not like Irish Ferries are going to up sticks and operate Bahamas to Trinidad ferry routes, they're still going to be operating Ireland to Wales and Ireland to France routes. They should be tied to Irish law while doing so. Microsoft have to pay Irish wage rates while operating in Ireland, not US ones, why should Irish Ferries be different? Saying you must abide by the laws of Ireland to operate shoudl not affect FDI as that's the law that applies for all FDI here (broadly speaking).

This company does not need to cut costs right now. They made 10 million euro profit last year. Where's the big trouble there? They're in minor trouble for buying the biggest ferry going when it wasn't needed.

Your solution to any unnecessary overspending by a company is to cuts wages by that logic. If you worked for a shop and they bought too big a stockroom and decided to declare themselves a Bahamas company and pay you 3 euro while still operating in Ireland would you support them?

Andrew 83

Forgot to mention that I marched in Dublin on Friday.

ronbyrne2005

Andrew 83 wrote:

That's ludicrous. It's not like Irish Ferries are going to up sticks and operate Bahamas to Trinidad ferry routes, they're still going to be operating Ireland to Wales and Ireland to France routes. They should be tied to Irish law while doing so. Microsoft have to pay Irish wage rates while operating in Ireland, not US ones, why should Irish Ferries be different? Saying you must abide by the laws of Ireland to operate shoudl not affect FDI as that's the law that applies for all FDI here (broadly speaking).

This company does not need to cut costs right now. They made 10 million euro profit last year. Where's the big trouble there? They're in minor trouble for buying the biggest ferry going when it wasn't needed.

Your solution to any unnecessary overspending by a company is to cuts wages by that logic. If you worked for a shop and they bought too big a stockroom and decided to declare themselves a Bahamas company and pay you 3 euro while still operating in Ireland would you support them?

irish ferries are different as they can avail of a legal loophole for ships.microsoft cant do this or any irish land based employer.

from a purely financial point of view 10 million operating profit means nothing,the return on capital employed is what companies look at ,currently irish ferries ROCE is around 3% which if you dont know is poor for any company, it would like you borrowing 100,000 euro at 6% a year to invest and only geting 3 percent return which means you are actually losing money on your investment
whether or not the company overspent on a ship remains to be seen but the fact remains they have to pay for this ship and get an economic rate of return on it.
a shop or any business in ireland cant pay 3 euro an hour,if there was no minimum wage and they offered it to you you could leave for another employer,a job isnt a right and this is the new economic reality which ireland cant stop/change as we are a small open economy and have no power to change global economic systems. ireland can charge low taxes and get american companies to locate here and provide jobs but ireland must also accept the forces of globalistion when its against us in the likes of the irish ferries case.

flogen

netwhizkid wrote:

I myself Marched in Cork today and there was about 12,00 people there, and it was great to see all the proletariats up in arms to take on the capitalist fat cats in Irish Ferries and in Government. A day of National Strike should be next as well as a general consensus to bring Decency back into Irish Society. The 100,000 people in Dublin should march out to Kildare and pay Mr. Charlie McCreevy a visit and challenge him on his proposed European Services Directive that would legally allow migrant workers to be paid their own rates. Eg. A Polish Labourer could be payed whatever is the Polish Minimum rate or the going rate. This would bring the Irish Working Class to its knees and will cripple our economy if Introduced, and imo if it is we should quickly have a referendum and withdraw from this Imperialist Europe which was not what we signed up to 30+ years ago.

actually, that directive was thought up by Frits Bolkestein (although McCreevy has a lot to do with it given his role), and you're slightly off on what it would mean (although the facts are possibly much worse).
Basically, if the directive came into effect all companies would be free to trade across Europe and rather than follow local law would instead follow the law of the country that it is "established" in. That means that, like Irish Ferries, any company could set up shop in the back-arse of nowhere and then offer their wages and (lack of) benefits to their workers, even if the workers are operating in Ireland, the UK, France etc.
I don't think that's going to happen though, because it would cause an extremely unstable economy for the EU, or so it seems to me.

mike65

Andrew 83 wrote:

That's ludicrous. It's not like Irish Ferries are going to up sticks and operate Bahamas to Trinidad ferry routes, they're still going to be operating Ireland to Wales and Ireland to France routes.

Don't bet on it, they could easily sail the fleet to the China coast where availible sea transport is at a premium.

Mike.

Imposter

Cronus333 wrote:

Its amazing how much I disagree with you. couldn't the EU just make a standard minimum wage for all member states? One step closer to a USE(United States of Europe):D

Where would they take the rate from? A country of 4m people like Ireland which is one of the most expensive countries in the EU or from bigger countries? I think you might find it would be a lot lower than the current rate in Ireland if such a thing was to be introduced (which it won't be).