{ARTICLE} Manu exit from the Champions League the facts and the myths

Hobart

This is a really good concise article tracking, not just the decline of Manu over the last 6 years in Europes most prestigous competition, but also the decline in performance in the league and debunks some of the "statements" made in light of Manu's recent capitulation in Europe.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/m/man_utd/4509694.stm

OTliddy

It's good. It's neutrally written. I keep BBC bookmarked, and was actually going to post that myself last night.

merlinsmerryman

Yeah it's a good read.

mchurl

its good and true because it doesnt have any of the usual i ahte man u or i love man u side taken up

The Rooster

On a review of the papers on BBC 5 Live this morning, it mentioned that some business professor was putting the cost to United for not beating Benfica at over £100m!! - taking account of all the spin off benefits. Its gas what papers will print.

Interesting quote from an official family spokesman of the Glazer's in response to the defeat:

They are obviously disappointed.....But by all accounts the team have underperformed in Europe

"by all acounts" :rolleyes: Have they not been watching them, or do they just not know?

YeatsCounty

Very good article. Manchester United are in a perilous situation at the moment and they will get themselves out of it, but what will happen in the meantime, I wonder?

Also, I wonder what the Glazer's are thinking right now? They're businessmen, they're smart enough to know that every business has its up and down moments. On the pitch however, football is an entirely different business.....
They're obviously not going to sell the club after one season, but the decline does have to stop here, otherwise it could get much worse. Then who would blame the Galzer's for selling the club? It's sensible thing to do when personal debt is growing, which would happen IMO if United continue on their current form for the next couple of seasons.

chiller

good article but he is just really spitting out facts and figures im red through and through always will be and ill continue to back my team and are great manager! aanyone could have wrote that atricle it just states facts and figures really nothing else we will be on top again

Hobart

chiller wrote:

good article but he is just really spitting out facts and figures im red through and through always will be and ill continue to back my team and are great manager! aanyone could have wrote that atricle it just states facts and figures really nothing else we will be on top again

You hear so many commentators churn out figures like £15M lost through non-qualification etc.. It's also interesting to see how badly united have performed in the comp over the last few years, albeit in a graphical context.

chiller

every fans knows all that wat we have won since 2001 not much but so wat every team goes trough a rebuilding programme and we are going through ours just taking longer than the fans would like but it will click into place soon and all the haters will eat there words mark my words! journalists with nothing better to do than sit around and quote facts off idiots

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

Lemlin

ziggy67 wrote:

If someone states a fact, i.e. something that is true, then why are they an idiot??

Depends who the journalist is IMO. Anyone can manipulate facts and statistics. Read an article by Roy Curtis and you'll know what I mean.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

Lemlin

ziggy67 wrote:

Read what i said, i wasn't talking about journalists, Chiller is saying that the people who the journalists are quoting are idiots & i was asking why this is the case.

Well I read it as him meaning that the journalists are idiots.

Necronomicon

Era, let the experts say what they want. Haven't read the article myself because I'm sure it just says everything that's been said to me a hundred times already in the last year or two. Things mightn't be the best at the moment, but I wouldn't be so melodramatic to say the club is on the brink of destruction.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

Lemlin

ziggy67 wrote:

Lemlin i would have thought that it is pretty clear.

Sorry but I don't see how you could describe any of his post as "clear".

Atlas_IRL

I think they are too big a club too go on the brink of destruction but every team does go through transitions it was always goin to happen just Fergie didnt buy too many good players to replace the team of "youngsters" that won everything..

AC Milan were in the same position with their age group of players but they've bought well..

I doubt United will do a liverpool the way they went after their decade of domination...

ziggy

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el rabitos

I doubt United will do a liverpool the way they went after their decade of domination...

it took 26 years for united to win it last time, what makes u think the winning formula wont take 15 years as its taken liverpool so far??

look at how united dominated the 90's. we all think thats a massive achievement because its within recent history. but liverpool dominated for the better part of 2 decades and they lost the winning formula. it happens, and to get that dominance back all the stars have to align again.

united dominated becuase they got a top top keeper in schmichael, a couple of top investments, keane/cantona and a flurry of some of the top young talent in england all in one go basically.

now that keeper is GONE, recent investments have been sub standard and the young players are not the quality that the previous generation were, SORRY, but fletcher is NOT top quality

whats worrying for me as a liverpool fan about chelsea is not that they can afford to buy any player they want. whats scary is that they have a top keeper, a couple of top investments, ie makelele/essian/lampard and they are buying the top young talent in the world if they dont have it themselves.

i wouldnt be too worried if i was an arsenal fan because grooming young talent has been their speciality and they have some top players there too

liverpool have a good keeper, a couple of top players ie gerrard, carra, alonso and they have aquired some top young talent from spain and other parts.

i'm not saying this because i'm a liverpool fan, but i think uniteds prospects look the worse of the top 4. plenty of people wont agree, but i think united have an old keeper (still good though) top players that arent performing (appart from rooney), and young players that are just good enough for the likes of birmingham or something.

thats just how it goes, might not take long for united to win the league again, but maybe it will

PHB

i wouldnt be too worried if i was an arsenal fan because grooming young talent has been their speciality and they have some top players there too

United aren't known for grooming young talent?

el rabitos

United aren't known for grooming young talent?

put it this way, i reckon arsenals under 21 team would beat uniteds. arsenal have some great prospects at the moment, united have alot of average youngsters, 1 player that stands out is rossi, seems like the best of the current bunch

Lemlin

el rabitos wrote:

put it this way, i reckon arsenals under 21 team would beat uniteds. arsenal have some great prospects at the moment, united have alot of average youngsters, 1 player that stands out is rossi, seems like the best of the current bunch

And what about Liverpool's youth team?

el rabitos

And what about Liverpool's youth team?

what about them? they beat uniteds there last week 2 - 0

mike65

Boom boom!

Liverpool - Man Utd reserves match report

http://www.liverweb.org.uk/munar0506report.htm

Mike.

el rabitos

Boom boom!

keep it on topic please Mike

....and i believe the term ur looking for is "burrrrrrn"

Hobart

PHB wrote:

United aren't known for grooming young talent?

I'm presuming that this is a rethorical question?

blu_sonic

clearly: the gunners have always had a good youth set up as did/does leeds utd, utd's youth set-up hit it big late 80's early 90's but has misfired ever since, liverpool usually bring through 1-2 decent players every 3-5 seasons so i wouldn't be too excited about their youth teams but they do seem to bring in talented youth, its similar to when utd went down the last time, they just bought in all sorts of players to fill gaps the likes of the greenoff brothers and a few bohs/shels/rovers players (honestly) and then they got sunk, they're a million miles from thoses days but i think they'll be 4th maybe 3rd on a good year for a few seasons to come (im guessing atleast 10)

PHB

Lets have a look at United's under 21 team:

Steele
Bardesly-McShane-Pique-Spector

David Jones-Fletcher-Martin

Ronaldo-Rossi-Rooney

Also Blake is pretty decent, but he doesn't get into the squad, while he'd get into any other under 21 strike force in the country.

And you're telling me that there is another under 21 team in the country who would beat that? Infact, how many premiership sides is better than that team? Theres a couple who aren't.
The reason that the reserves lost to Liverpool is that half of them are out on loan, 4 of them are first team regulars, so the side is quite quite different.

If you don't think United are developing quality players for the future, you are quite simply deluding yourself.

p.s.
Just so I am very clear, I think the following players will make it into the United regular team, and deservedly so.

Bardesly
McShane
Pique
Spector
David Jones
Ronaldo
Rossi
Rooney

United are producing another golden generation

p.p.s.

RoRoRo is the future

p.p.p.s

Don't forget about Rincon, who is on a two year loan deal to Sporting Lisbon, who is probably the most likely out of all of those players, including Rooney and Ronaldo imo, to make it as a world class footballer.

Lemlin

el rabitos wrote:

what about them? they beat uniteds there last week 2 - 0

Just wondering what they were like as you seem to be talking alot about United's and Arsenal's youth teams and ignoring your own club's.

Thanx 4 The Fish

Can't win with you Lemlin, you complain when people drag liverpool into threads and then you proceed to do it when you think there is potential to score a point. :rolleyes:

jank

PHB you seem to confuse grooming talent at an underage level to buying a 19 year old and putting them in the first team like Ronaldo and Rooney

Name one Utd player in the current X1 that came through the youth system at utd.

It hasnt happened since Brian Kidd left the club

Arsenal have had Cole, Clichy, Cesc in recently.

There would be a question mark over Sendorous though.

I wouldnt classify Reyes and Van Persie as they already made their name somewhere else.

Do you see the difference?

PS

How can you say that Ronaldo has a future at Utd, He is **** most of the time, showboats the other half of the time and maybe 1 in 20 games has a geat game, so everybody raves about him.

Feck that id prefer to have Reyes (even though his form is indifferent at best) over Ronaldo anytime

I know loads of Utd fans and its very hard to find one that rates him. Id go as far as many actually dislike him.

LegacyUser

Em you nicked Cesc from Barcelona didn't you?

jank

cheesedude wrote:

Em you nicked Cesc from Barcelona didn't you?

when he was about 15 about 3 years ago.

He didnt make the first team really until last year when Gilberto was out injured

wheres me jumpa

i nearly cried wednesday night. imo that game will have a huge impact on united. we have been in decline for about 2 years now, but wednesday night was confirmation for me. never mind that match, but the entire group we were very poor.

and unfortunately i believe the reason we havent gone through is the coaching/management. i have great respect for ferguson and watching him walk down the tunnel on his own last wednesday was a very sad moment. however i believe at the end of the season he should step down, before he ruins his name. for me there is enough talent in the united squad to have qualified from that group. but basic defending, passing, movement etc is just not up to standard and i put that down to the coaching/management.

the damage this may have done financially is crucial. the team needs a major rebuilding and if we dont have the money to do it this summer we will fall further behind. although there are some good young players coming through the ranks there doesnt seem to be any talent there to match the likes of beckham, nevilles, scholes, giggs when they were young. rossi and rooney are two gems and i like bardsley but after that its bleek imo. ronaldo i dont rate, very selfish and needs to becoe a team player before he will ever fulfill his potential.

so all thats left to do is spend money. it will be interesting to see how much the glazers will give the manager to spend. it will be interesting to see if fergie stays on.

still red to the core though!

LegacyUser

Strongly disagree. I'll wait and see what my thoughts are at the END of the season.

wheres me jumpa

its my opinion on the matter. i really hope im wrong and my support wont wane.

LegacyUser

Well you would hope not anyway...after all, your meant to be a fan.

Jivin Turkey

jank wrote:

Name one Utd player in the current X1 that came through the youth system at utd.

Neville, Scholes, Fletcher, O'Shea and Giggs.

You could arguably put Richardson and Brown there too as they are a regular part of the first team squad.

PHB

Name one Utd player in the current X1 that came through the youth system at utd.

Neville, Scholes, Fletcher, O'Shea and Giggs.

vs.

Cole, Clichy, Cesc

What I find funny is you have two left backs in there, who dont play together that often.
Cesc was stolen, much like Pique and Rossi were stolen, much like Beckham was stolen.

But what I assume is you mean who have recently broken in, so we can ignore Scholes.
So you have Clichy and Cesc.

We have O'Shea and Fletcher and Richardson,
also Rossi is beginning to break in.

---

As for Ronaldo, he has had a tough time, and wasn't doing great.
Although over the last couple of games, he has gotten his form back, and is beginning to produce the end product that he can so easily produce.

What I find funny about Reyes is that he is always trying to engineer a move to Real Madrid, but they don't want him. But what I find really funny about that really is that Real Madrid want Ronaldo, and have said so.

jank

PHB wrote:

Neville, Scholes, Fletcher, O'Shea and Giggs.

vs.

Cole, Clichy, Cesc

What I find funny is you have two left backs in there, who dont play together that often.
Cesc was stolen, much like Pique and Rossi were stolen, much like Beckham was stolen.

But what I assume is you mean who have recently broken in, so we can ignore Scholes.
So you have Clichy and Cesc.

We have O'Shea and Fletcher and Richardson,
also Rossi is beginning to break in.

---

As for Ronaldo, he has had a tough time, and wasn't doing great.
Although over the last couple of games, he has gotten his form back, and is beginning to produce the end product that he can so easily produce.

What I find funny about Reyes is that he is always trying to engineer a move to Real Madrid, but they don't want him. But what I find really funny about that really is that Real Madrid want Ronaldo, and have said so.

No, the newspapers say that not Real Madrid.

You mention O'Shea and Fletcher and Richardson. Do you think they are any good?? I wouldnt want ANY of them at Arsenal and I dont see any other top team wanting them. O'Shea gets his game by default and Richardson rarely starts for Utd

How many League games has Rossi started? A big 0 so you cant really include him.

Jivin Turkey

jank wrote:

No, the newspapers say that not Real Madrid.

You mention O'Shea and Fletcher and Richardson. Do you think they are any good?? I wouldnt want ANY of them at Arsenal and I dont see any other top team wanting them. O'Shea gets his game by default and Richardson rarely starts for Utd

How many League games has Rossi started? A big 0 so you cant really include him.

Regardless of whether you think they are any good or not, it still blows your claim out of the water that no one in Uniteds starting XI came directly through the youth system.

I also do recall WBA being interested in Richardson and a number of Premiership clubs being linked with O'Shea.

PHB

Well, considering Arsenals defensive problems, perhaps you shouldnt so quickly dismiss O'Shea. Also O'Shea was chased by Real Madrid after his first season. He has the talent, he just needs to get his confidence back.
Fletcher I rate very highly, many others don't, but he reguarly gets his game for Man Utd, the team second in the premiership, and has for the last year or so, and is only 20, so...


Whether or not we stole the talent is utterly irrelevent,
the simple fact of the matter is that our u-21 side is very very very talented and has many many great prospects in it, two of them considered by many to be the best prospects in the entire world.

Somebody said our u-21 side would loose to Arsenal's, and I don't think there is an u-21 side in the premiership that could beat United's u-21's.
United's squad is a very young squad, and once the midfield is sorted, we will have an incredibly young squad.

Dont be at yourself

Right, other premiership teams may be interested in him - but not ones with any real title, or european, ambitions. Why? Because they're not good enough. WBA is lightyears away from where ManYoo want to be.

United's youth setup hasn't produced players like it did to form the core of the treble winning team. This can't be entirely blamed on Fergie. If anything, he has strived to bring in some quality players for the future.

Unfortunately, they need quality now. They need players all over the pitch - especially in the centre of midfield - and they don't seem to be coming in. It could be argued Fergie has been unlucky in the transfer market (would we be even having this conversation if he landed Ronaldinho?), but that excuse can wear thin. It's his job to bring in talent, and by-in-large (with very few notable exceptions), he has failed to do. As a result, he's being forced to rely on what are basically reserve team players (step forward Flether, Richardson and O Shea).

Jivin Turkey

PHB wrote:

the simple fact of the matter is that our u-21 side is very very very talented and has many many great prospects in it, two of them considered by many to be the best prospects in the entire world.

If you are referring to Ronaldo as one of "the best prospects in the entire world" you are deluding yourself.

jank

Well, considering Arsenals defensive problems, perhaps you shouldnt so quickly dismiss O'Shea. Also O'Shea was chased by Real Madrid after his first season. He has the talent, he just needs to get his confidence back.

LOL Real Madrid my ass. As I said dont believe everything you read in the paper

We agree to disagree OK.

jank

Jivin Turkey wrote:

If you are referring to Ronaldo as one of "the best prospects in the entire world" you are deluding yourself.

Beat me to it.

When he arrived he was so hyped up. He does have talent....but at doing the same thing over and over again, the Stepover.

Is he a better player now then he was last year? IMO I think he is worse and a lot of players have figured him out.

The Muppet

Appatantly The league table doesn't lie .

http://www.premierleague.com/fapl.rac?command=forwardOnly&nextPage=enCompReservesNorth

United have traditionally been on of the best team for bringing through players from the youth team. It's not as easy for them now as the FA changed the rules to stop United signing the best young talent but they are still have a youth squad on a par with anyone elses.

Thanx 4 The Fish

Reserves are not quite the same thing as an underage setup. The underage has it's own leageu, I am not sure how that is going at mo but here would be a bteer indicator I feel.

http://www.premierleague.com/fapl.rac?command=forwardOnly&nextPage=enCompAcademyLatestRes

The Muppet

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

Reserves are not quite the same thing as an underage setup. The underage has it's own leageu, I am not sure how that is going at mo but here would be a bteer indicator I feel.

http://www.premierleague.com/fapl.rac?command=forwardOnly&nextPage=enCompAcademyLatestRes

I appreciate that the table I linked to is for the north of England . Arsenal top the south of England table but with fewer points than United. Without the benefit of one national reserve league it is difficult if not impossible to accuratly guage the relevance of any teams position.

The discussion here was centered on the under 21s. the table you linked to is under 18s ,historically we know many players of that age will drop out and never make the grade.

Necronomicon

Speaking of the u18's, they hammered Wolves 4-0 on saturday to stay top of their league with their fifth consecutive win.

Freescoring Reds Remain Top Of The League

FA Academy Premier League (North)
Manchester United 4
Wolves 0
Saturday 10 December, Carrington

United's under-18s continued their rich vein of form on Saturday with a 4-0 win over Wolves.

The victory is their fifth consecutive league win - the sixth without defeat - and means they will return from the winter break in January as league leaders.

Danny Rose has been in fine goalscoring form recently, and it took just nine minutes for the 17-year-old midfielder to grab his fourth goal in three games to United on their way.

However, United could not build on their early breakthrough until two minutes after half-time.

Fraizer Campbell, 18, found the net with his sixth goal in five games to make it 2-0 to the Reds.

Two late goals from Sam Hewson and Sean Evans ensured another victory for Paul McGuinness' side.

It means United have scored 22 goals in their last five league games and keeps them above Blackburn in the league due to the Reds' superior goal difference.

The Under-18s do not resume league duties until 7 January when they take on Bolton at Carrington.

But before the Reds youngsters sign off for the festive period, they take on Birmingham in the FA Youth Cup third round on Thursday.

The match, at Birmingham's St Andrews stadium, kicks off at 7pm and will be shown live on MUTV.

United: Zieler, Lee K., Cathcart, Evans J., Lea M., Gray, Rose (Evans C, 46), Gibson (Mullan, 46), Hewson, Evans S., Campbell (Burns 60).
Subs not used: Fagan , Chester.

el rabitos

i wonder what the particular level of success united actually have to sustain in the coming years for the glazers to be able to pay off that debt in time.

like, what will happen if say, united finish between 3rd and 6th over the next 5 seasons or so. what would that do to the club financially? are we likely to see a repeat of what happened at leeds?

for example, liverpool havent won the league in 15 years, but they havent had a dept of that size hanging over them, can united afford to go 5 or 10 years without the prize money that comes with a top 2 finish?