Will Schwarzenegger "terminate" Williams? [merged]

tj-music.com

I don't think it is an easy choice to make for the gouvernor.

Basically, Stanley Wiiliams who has been sentenced to death after being convicted for (supposedly, because he denies the charges) killing four people back in 1981 is due for his leathal injection on December 13th.

Since his imprisonment he "changed". He wrote some childrens books and "warned" people of getting involved in gangs and has even been nominated for the peace price. Snoop Dogg and Bianca Jagger are only two of many who currently fight for his life.

On the other hand, Williams founded the "crips" gang and they caused some havoc in the states and people got killed in the events. So he is NOT another black and not guilty chap, even though he obviously is sorry for the things he did in the past.

All it comes down to is a yes or no to finally follow through and fulfill the death sentence.

So far, Schwarzenegger has denied a pardon for two other convicted prisoners and had them both killed according to their sentences.

So, will he go through this time?

I personally oppose the death penalty although their have been cases in the past where even I thought it is perhaps best to get rid of these harmful individuals. But then, looking back, I recon it is not up to me to deside who lives and who dies and I am glad it is not my choice to make.

What is your opinion on this case and the death penalty in general.

Culchie

I heard about this case a couple of weeks ago.

This fellah should definitely be pardoned, and I say he will.

JohnK

I oppose the death penalty regardless of the crime so I do think he should be pardoned. However, Schwarzenegger is doing badly in the polls and 65% of California supports the death penalty so that’s a big incentive for him to just do nothing

...even though he obviously is sorry for the things he did in the past...

According to news reports he has never expressed any form of regret for his actions or for founding the gang but that being said his anti-gang books are a positive influence so its better for society to let him live.

Manic Moran

JohnK wrote:

According to news reports he has never expressed any form of regret for his actions or for founding the gang but that being said his anti-gang books are a positive influence so its better for society to let him live.

One of the first arguments in favour of clemency is that he man has to show repentance. You can't repent for something you deny you ever did. Even his lawyers aren't trying to get the 'innocent of the crime' angle, and the evidence of his crime is pretty cut and dry. (Evidence later submitted at appeals included information on a 1979 escape plan which involved pre-meditated murder of a guard). He threatened the jurors.

He has written two books. The first sold 330 copies. The second sold 2. I'm not sure it's much of an influence. He's not much of a positive influence on his son, who's also in jail.

Now, that said, he has done telephone interviews, church speeches (by remote), and otherwise done some good deeds since. There is a large, popular movement to keep him alive. (There is also a large, popular movement to make him dead, but they are generally less vocal since they just need to leave the status quo). Given the Governator's currently shaky political position (But it's getting better again), I can see why there is a serious temptation to grant clemency. If he were to do that, however, he may also weaken his own home base support. Party-line-voting is commonplace in the US, the majority of clemency supporters are Democrats, and will never vote for anyone on a Republican ticket no matter what they do.

The nutshell though, is regardless of the works he has done since, we are faced with a quadruple-homicide killer, convicted on evidence about as solid as it comes (Witnesses saw him kill, he used his own firearm to do it), who has shown absolutely no remorse or repentance for the crimes of which he was convicted. That is what he has been sentenced on, and that is what the Governor should be looking at in determining whether the sentence truly does fit the crime.

Personal opinions on the death penalty are irrelevant at this point: The laws of California permit it, and the next of kin of the slain have probably been waiting for the court's punishment to be carried out for twenty years plus, and expect it. (A tradition I like from Saudi beheadings, the next of kin of the murdered is asked at the last minute if they are willing to commute the sentence) The issue isn't over 'if the death penalty should be allowed', it's 'should the penalty be commuted in this case?'

I'd say that the Governor is going to earn his pay cheque this week making this decision, if he were getting paid. Assuming clemency is not granted, my next question is 'is LA going to riot again?'. California is making preparations to deal with that if it happens.

NTM

Uthur

Arnie says bugger off - or is that 'you are terminated!?'

Seriously, no clemency for Tookie? Obviously he was a murdering scumbag
once - but he's been nominated for the nobel peace prize FIVE times
since then!

Is there no such thing as redemption or forgiveness in America today
or what?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/12/williams.execution/index.html

bagdaddy

Sick country, whats wrong with just locking him away forever?

Manic Moran

Obviously he was a murdering scumbag once -

Actually, he was a muderous scumbag twice, and planned more killings even when in jail.

but he's been nominated for the nobel peace prize FIVE times
since then

In fairness, that doesn't mean much. Some people deserve their nominations, others are purely political. I should add that Hitler received one nomination, and Stalin two. (Though Hitler's was subsequently withdrawn after he invaded Poland later that year)

Is there no such thing as redemption or forgiveness in America today
or what?

Sure there is. That's why the whole clemency option is available to Governors. But a big part in forgiving someone is for the othe person to say 'I'm sorry'. This didn't happen.

whats wrong with just locking him away forever?

The People of the Great State of California, as represented by their duly elected officials and the judicial officers which they appointed, have decided that the crimes he committed are such that simply locking him away forever is insufficient. (Though 25 years is pretty damned close to forever!)

Full text of the Governor's deciscion here:
http://www.governor.ca.gov/govsite/pdf/press_release_2005/Williams_Clemency_Decision.pdf

NTM

Ray777

I think this judgement shows what a disgustingly backward-thinking country the USA is.

Manic Moran

The US is certainly backward thinking in some areas, I'd be well wrong to argue otherwise.

Not so sure that applies in this case, however.

NTM

Laguna

I see no reason why he should be granted clemency, the fact that he claims to be a changed man excuses the fact he is a murderer?.

Saying that though, I do feel the death penalty should be abolished, murdering to solve murder?.

Our man in Havana

The bible says "an eye for an eye". But I still think that Schwarzenegger was wrong here. More LA riots later today?

was their riots already about it?im sure that african americans will feel that the the reason no clemency was granted was due to the colour of his skin.

Manic Moran

No, unsurprisingly, LA is fairly quiet.

NTM

GOAT_Ali

I see most are all sympathetic towards this guy. Not one has bothered to mention his victims or their family. He committed murder and deserves to die. I do agree with capital punishment in certain circumstances

tj-music.com

Whatever the feelings: The execution of "Tookie" Williams took place and Schwarzenegger said that there is no doubt in his mind that Williams is guilty of the four murders and therefore he sees no reason to pardon him.

tj-music.com

see thread: Will Schwarzenegger "terminate" Williams?

swiss

This Williams character doesn't strike me as reformed. I suspect that many of the "good deeds" he has done have been motivated by a desire to demonstrate how changed he is in an effort to get clemency. Of course I could be wrong, but even if I am, I can't say I'll be terribly sorry to see him die. I do have reservations about the death penalty in general, but these crimes were particularly heinous, and now it's time for him to pay the price.

Blisterman

Well, the state of california have murdered Tookie Williams.

Orion

Bond-007 wrote:

The bible says "an eye for an eye".

The bible also says "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Which of the two would you prefer to be the ideal of society?

IMO the death penalty is wrong in all circumstances - no exception. It has been proven again and again that it is no deterrent to serious crime. It also runs the risk of innocent people being executed which has happened more than once. As for the US situation they have on numerous occasions executed people who were minors at the time of their offences and retarded people - in violation of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child and the UNCHR. The Supreme court ruled this year that no retarded people could be executed but many already have been.

(Note that I'm only singling out the US here because of the subject being discussed. Other countries have done worse although the US is near the top of the league for judicial executions).

Eoin

GOAT_Ali wrote:

I see most are all sympathetic towards this guy. Not one has bothered to mention his victims or their family. He committed murder and deserves to die. I do agree with capital punishment in certain circumstances

Penal servitude (and execution) is not only about punishing the offender, it is also about what is best for society in general. This is why some people don't see any jail time; because society will not benefit by them doing jail time.

In this case, it could be argued that society was benefitting more with the man alive, than it will with him dead. It seems evident that his work had a positive direct impact on reducing crime, so I think society would be better served with him alive.

mentalson

the main problem was that in order to have a chance for clemecy he would have had to show some remorse and guilt for the murders.
However because he maintained his innocence he was unable to do this. i.e you can't show remorse for something that you didn't do.
Arnie was saying that there was no reason to suggest that the conviction was unsound which means that he committed the murders which means he showed no remorse for killing those people.

gandalf

Merged the two threads.

FatherTed

The only way Arnie was going to grant clemency was if he is against the death penalty himself. Also, the major criteria for granting clemency is for the defendant to admit remorse. Which Tookie Williams never did.

I'm personally against the death penalty but Williams never said sorry for the murders he committed.

Red Alert

i think he should be granted clemency. and the bible said an eye for an eye in the old testament - jesus teaches forgiveness in the new testament, you should forgive your brother not 7 but 77 times! how can anyone's good name ever be recovered if they've been put to death and found not guilty?

imagine if ireland had the death penalty and sent Nora Wall to the chair on her rape conviction (which she was cleared in full of). so a court of law has found the person lawfully guilty as the court did in her case with the evidence that the jury heard and told was acceptable. she finally got her miscarriage of justice cert a long time and many newspaper articles later. but there'd be no bringing her back if we'd already zapped her. what happens if the real killer is discovered later? or if this guy acted in self defence?

for what it's worth, while the USA still barbarically kills its citizens, any governor who's prepared to put someone to death shouldn't be able to hide behind multiple-executioner switches, random anonymous executions or electronic scramblers or whatever. that vile man should have to go down and push the execution button himself and be seen to do so. or is the 'terminator' just a yellow coward?

Manic Moran

Red Alert wrote:

imagine if ireland had the death penalty and sent Nora Wall to the chair on her rape conviction (which she was cleared in full of).

Wouldn't have been an issue in California. Six years after the conviction, (Nora Wall's case) Tookie still had another eighteen years and multiple courts to appeal to.

or if this guy acted in self defence?

You're joking, right? He put a shotgun to the back of his head and pulled the trigger. Killing three more people two weeks later is really pushing any self defense argument.

NTM

Red Alert

suppose witnesses for example are lying? there's no going back if you've sent someone to death.

Manic Moran

In this week's news, Arnold has blasted his home-town of Graz for being critical of his refusal to grant clemency.

________________

By JENNIFER COLEMAN
Associated Press Writer
Dec 19 6:51 PM US/Eastern

SACRAMENTO, Calif. - Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger on Monday told officials in his hometown in Austria to remove his name from a sports stadium and stop using his identity to promote the city. The governor's request came after politicians in Graz began a petition drive to rename the stadium, reacting to Schwarzenegger's decision last week to deny clemency to condemned inmate Stanley Tookie Williams. Opposition to the death penalty is strong in Austria.

In a letter that began "Dear Mister Mayor," Schwarzenegger said he decided to spare the Graz city council "further concern" should he be forced to make other clemency decisions while he's governor. Another inmate is scheduled to be executed in California Jan. 17.

"In all likelihood, during my term as governor, I will have to make similar and equally difficult decisions," Schwarzenegger said in the letter. "To spare the responsible politicians of the city of Graz further concern, I withdraw from them as of this day the right to use my name in association with the Liebenauer Stadium."

The stadium was renamed for the former Hollywood star in 1997. He asked that the lettering be removed by year's end.

Schwarzenegger spokeswoman Margita Thompson said the letter was faxed Monday to the Graz city hall. The city council was expected to take up the matter next month.

In the letter, Schwarzenegger also said he would no longer permit the use of his name "to advertise or promote the city of Graz in any way" and would return the city's "ring of honor."

The ring was given to him in a ceremony in Graz in 1999. At the time, Schwarzenegger said he considered it "a token of sincere friendship between my hometown and me."

"Since, however, the official Graz appears to no longer accept me as one of their own, this ring has lost its meaning and value to me. It is already in the mail," the governor wrote.

Williams, co-founder of the Crips gang, was convicted of four 1979 murders. He was executed shortly after midnight Dec. 13
___________________

The next day...
___________________
Dec 20, 9:17 PM EST

By WILLIAM J. KOLE
Associated Press Writer

VIENNA, Austria (AP) -- The mayor of Arnold Schwarzenegger's Austrian hometown on Tuesday begged the California governor to reconsider his decision to cut ties to the city after locals assailed him for his death penalty stance.

Siegfried Nagl, mayor of the southern city of Graz, said he wrote Schwarzenegger pleading with him not to return a ring of honor bestowed on him by officials in his birthplace in 1999 and reassuring him that most residents still admire him.

"I hope that very soon we'll hear you say, 'I'll be back,'" Nagl told the actor-turned-politician, one of Austria's most famous sons.

On Monday, Schwarzenegger caused a stir by turning the tables on Austrians who criticized the governor's refusal to block the executions of convicted killers. He sent Graz officials a letter asking them to remove his name from a soccer stadium and stop using it to promote the city, and said he was giving back the ring because it "has lost its meaning and value to me."

His demands effectively pre-empted a drive launched by opponents in Austria who already were gathering signatures on a petition calling for the 15,300-seat arena in Graz, about 120 miles south of Vienna, to be renamed.

The petition drive began last week amid a furor triggered by the execution in California of Stanley Tookie Williams. Capital punishment is illegal in Europe, where many people consider it barbaric. They are now waiting to see how Schwarzenegger deals with the scheduled Jan. 17 execution of a 75-year-old inmate.

"Graz will not have problems in the future with my decisions as governor of California, because officially nothing connects us any more," Schwarzenegger told the daily Kronen Zeitung in an interview for Tuesday's editions.

"The death penalty is law here, and I have to uphold the law of the land and the will of the people," Schwarzenegger was quoted as saying, adding that he still considered himself "Austrian with all my heart."

Nagl told Austrian television he hoped to persuade Schwarzenegger. At a minimum, he said, he hoped to persuade Schwarzenegger to keep the ring - though he conceded he did not expect to succeed.

"Those who know him realize he sticks to his opinions," he said. "The chances are not good. I regret this deeply, but I understand."

Schwarzenegger was born in 1947 in the village of Thal just outside Graz, where he began his bodybuilding career. He emigrated to the United States in 1968 and became a naturalized U.S. citizen in 1984, but has retained his Austrian citizenship.

Kurt Flecker, a local official with the opposition Social Democrats, said Schwarzenegger damaged his own image - not Graz's - by refusing to spare Williams' life. There is no point, he said, in "glorifying anyone who supports the death penalty."

Walter Ferk, the deputy mayor of Graz, said Schwarzenegger's decision to allow executions to go forward makes him "an unsuitable godfather for a public building."

But Hermann Schuetzenhoefer, a tourism adviser in the province of Styria where Graz is located, said Tuesday he also wrote a letter to Schwarzenegger expressing regret "that some politicians who proudly bore your name a few years ago are dragging it through the dirt now."

Our man in Havana

Someone should tell him not to burn his bridges!

Mighty_Mouse

and the bible said ............

ah yes!!
The "good book" solves everything!!

Arnie considers himself an american anyways. I doubt he cares.

Now if only he can run for president.................

Victor

Bond-007 wrote:

The bible says "an eye for an eye".

Please treat this as a maximum, not a minimum target to be achieved.

Nox

Bond-007 wrote:

Someone should tell him not to burn his bridges!

Yep. And the "him" you're talking about should be the Graz politico who started the whole mess.

Nox