Square Footage

snatch

We are looking at buying a house off plans in a new development. It's a 5 bed but my concern is the square footage - 2100 sq.ft. This seems small to me for a 5 bed detached and I'm concerned that when built, some of the rooms will feel poky.

Builders have only started on site so no completions to view yet. Any experience of this?

johnnyrotten

The average 3 bed semi is 900 - 1000 sq Feet. 2100 is a big house. The bigger it is the dearer to heat and furnish

BrianD3

The average 3 bed semi is 900 - 1000 sq Feet

I think the average would be more than this. Maybe around 1200 sq ft. But yeah, 2100 sq ft is a big house, even with 5 bedrooms no way will it be "pokey".

A lot of the appeal of large square footage houses is simply snob appeal. Many are willing to buy impressive but unnessarily large houses down the country and endure the torture of long commutes to work in dublin. Rather than buying smaller houses closer to where they work.

johnnyrotten

BrianD3 wrote:

I think the average would be more than this. Maybe around 1200 sq ft.

A 1200 sq ft 3 bed semi is large . The average is 900-1000 sq feet

Bluehair

johnnyrotten wrote:

A 1200 sq ft 3 bed semi is large . The average is 900-1000 sq feet

It does seem to have changed mind you. Anything over, say, 10 years old is more likely to be closer to 1200sq feet but there's no doubt houses built more recently are smaller and smaller. I'd say 900-1000sq feet is pretty accurate these days.

On another point I now know of 2 people who've moved much further out of town in order to get the 3bed semi they've always wanted rather than the 'pokey' apartment or 2bed terraced etc.

Both of they hate the commute and being so far away from friends and one of them (only there 2 months) are already seriously considering trying to move back in!

BrianD3

Bluehair wrote:

It does seem to have changed mind you. Anything over, say, 10 years old is more likely to be closer to 1200sq feet but there's no doubt houses built more recently are smaller and smaller. I'd say 900-1000sq feet is pretty accurate these days.

I've been looking at new houses for a few years now and I don't recall seeing any 3 bed semis below about 1100 sq ft and the majority were around 1200-1300 sq ft. Mind you these houses were all in towns outside of Dublin. Perhaps square footages are lower in new Dublin estates.

4 bed semis are often the same size as the 3 beds but with smaller rooms and different layout. Some of the 4 beds really are pokey with the 4th bedroom about the size of a cupboard

Culchie

2100 sq ft will be pokey for a 5 bed house in my opinion.

lomb

Culchie wrote:

2100 sq ft will be pokey for a 5 bed house in my opinion.

do u reakon? i think it will be big enough, the 5th room should be a box room, and the hall shouldnt be overly large. u want a large living room, greater than 15 foot by 15 foot, or around 225+sq foot as this is where u will be living most of the time consiously. around 300 ish would be GREAT, also the kitchen helps if its open plan with the dining room all in one and again around 300 sqare foot, this takes around 525 square foot anyway. the bedrooms can be 250(master with ensuite), 175,175,150,100, so thats 1600 gone, and main bathroom another 150 max, hall+landing another 350 so thats around 2100, and thats a LARGE house, imho. u could probably get a second ground floor toilet in their somewhere under the stairs also or reduce some of the room sizes to accomodate it.

muffler

In my experience here in Donegal (note: sizes would be smaller in the city) a good average size 3 bed detach would be about 1200 - 1400 sq. ft and a 4 bed. detached about 1400 - 1700.

I think if you are getting 2100 sq. ft it will probably be big enough. If all 5 bedrooms together with bathroom are on first floor then you would see one or two of the bedrooms a wee bit small.

However if you have 1 bed down and 4 up you should have pretty good sized rooms.

Post the details of the rooms and sizes here so we can give you a bit of advice for what its worth

lomb

agreed its all about layouts, thats the key, 2100 sq foot properly laid out is better than 2400 all over the place.

Victor

Does the 2100 ft2 include the double garage? How many reception rooms?

Put up the link to the developers website and we can comment better.

Ove rhte recent years, a lot of houses would have been around 1,125 ft2 to comply with grant / stamp duty limits.

lomb wrote:

and main bathroom another 150 max

That is, of course, 10' x 15'..... about the size of a double bedroom. :v:

snatch

Thanks for the replies, esp lomb - valuable advice. All I have to compare with at the mo is our 3 bed semi (1150 sq ft for info). Commuting not an issue for us - we are buying in Dundalk and both work within 20 miles of there.

Developer has no website but see below approx room sizes.
Ground Floor-
Hall 16'x9'6"
Living Room 18'x12'
Kitchen/Diner 34'x12'6"
Utility 6'8"x7'6"
Study/Bed 5 9'3"x12'

First Floor-
Master Bed (incl ensuite) 17'6"x12'
Bed 2 (incl ensuite) 10'6"x12'
Bed 3 13'x8'6"
Bed 4 9'x12'
Bed5/Study 12x8'6"
Bathroom 12'x6'

I like the layout, especially the large open plan kitchen diner at the back. I suppose my reluctance and uncertainty comes from not being able to physically see what I am buying. Not much I can do about that as there won't be a showhouse till March at the earliest and no doubt price will be €20k dearer by then.

muffler

The ground floor is great. The first floor is as I stated earlier, you will have a couple of smallish rooms but still they are a reasonable size.
If you can compare the bedroom sizes in the new house to the rooms in your own house it may give you an idea of size.

Eg. take your own living room at present (assuming its about 12 ft wide) and using blue tack and a string measure out the sizes of the 2 smallest bedrooms in the new house (one at a time) Use the string to outline 2 walls while using the 2 existing walls to represent the other 2 walls in the bedroom of the new house.

Some people tell me this gives them a fairly good idea of sizes.

Alternatively go out to the back garden and stick in 4 posts to represent the size of a bedroom in the new house and tie string from post to post. The idea of the string is that you can see a physical line that represents a wall.

May seem silly but I am assured it helps.

snatch

Thanks, it's a great idea and good guess, my current living room is almost 12' wide!

MorningStar

Square footage has always bothered me over the years becasue it seems to be a blatant lie in most cases.
For Example
http://www4.myhome.ie/search/property.asp?id=254715&np=
Says it is 1098 but work it out for the rooms and halls it appears to be only 853sq feet. I guess I could have my calculations wrong and there is a some space maybe not mentioned. How that all would amount to over 200 sq feet is a bit of stretch.

Anything that actually works out at 1000sq feet is probably considered quite roomy in most suburbs. As for that being the average I would be pretty apprehensive. I live in a 3 bed semi with three reception rooms and a large kitchen diner and I think it is only about 1060sq feet. Sales brochures are often misleading

A considerable portion of irish property consists of this type and design

http://www4.myhome.ie/search/property.asp?id=255281&np=&rt=search&searchlist=

A new average house is probably about 600-800 in the suburbs now as the average prive is 340k. It is why people move futher out in fairness. I think people buy for size more than location now as they expect to commute for long periods of time.

2000+sq feet is very big in most suburbs but in a rural setting it may be fine. The big think is if you don't have it insulated enough the house will feel cold and how and when you downsize is an issue in the future

Victor

MorningStar wrote:

For Example
http://www4.myhome.ie/search/property.asp?id=254715&np=
Says it is 1098 but work it out for the rooms and halls it appears to be only 853sq feet. I guess I could have my calculations wrong and there is a some space maybe not mentioned. How that all would amount to over 200 sq feet is a bit of stretch.

I'm sure there will always be mistakes and um, "generous" descriptions.

A few factors to watch:

1. Few rooms are perfectly square, there may be an averaging or addition / omission

2. Voids. A stairs may not be exactly the same floor area as the gap in the landing for it.

3a. Walls. Internal walls are typically in the order of 100mm, but add plaster, skirtings and so on and they can easily be 150mm.

3b. Walls. External walls are typically in the order of 300mm and depending on how things are measured, may or may not be included.

4. Chimney breasts, pillars, window bays and the like all create irregularities.

---

When applying for planning permission, the area is gross footprint area x number of stories. Remember your roof may project more than your walls.

Leases are typicly based on "carpet area" - the closest to useable area as possible, be careful to watch things like fitted furniture though.

For construction costs, use gross internal floor area - measured to the internal face of external walls, across all internal features.

muffler

Victor wrote:

When applying for planning permission, the area is gross footprint area x number of stories. Remember your roof may project more than your walls.

For construction costs, use gross internal floor area - measured to the internal face of external walls, across all internal features.

Im not sure if you mean that the two areas stated above are the same.
The 2nd one is the way I would certainly measure the floor area which will include stairwells also.

I note that on certain valuation report forms the area is requested as being the total gross floor area including external walls which is obviously a contradiction on their part

Victor

There are slight differences in the three methods I stated, depending on whether you take into account (a) floor only, (b) internal walls, (c) external walls.

MorningStar

In a new development I would accept measurements by plan to external wall but stated as so. A house that is built should obviously be measure by what is there.
Talk of chimney and nooks making a room bigger is a bit much. Estate agents will take the widest measurement in each room so if anything making the measurements larger.
It is at best confusing and at worst intentionally misleading. I think it is just another example of why self regulation doesn't work. 250 sq ft differnece in the example is an extra room. If one estate agent advertises using the more understandable method they may appears on paper to be the same size. This actively discourage honest details.

muffler

The issue of measuring and stating area has always been a problem as the defination appears to differ depending on the profession of the person doing the measuring.

I think we all should stick to the defination issued by the Dept. Environment. I dont have the exact wording at hand but it goes something like - Floor area shall be measured from the finished surface of all external walls and shall include all chimney breasts, stairwells, internal walls/partitions, lobbies etc.

I think that is fairly straight forward.

Going slightly off topic here but with a bearing on the subject thread did any of you know that there are 5 different acres . In Donegal (and possibly all other rural areas) farmers can refer to an acre as a big acre, small acre, Irish acre, statute acre or Cunningham acre.

Ask any farmer how many roods are in an acre and he will tell you 3. When you tell him there is 4 he says "Ah sure thats the big acre you are talking about"
Lifes not easy here

MorningStar

Don't forget an Irish mile is longer too.

I still think the square footage of a place should refer to the living space as that is really what counts and don't forget a lot of rural property has 2 feet thick walls.

Victor

MorningStar wrote:

Talk of chimney and nooks making a room bigger is a bit much.

No, I mean making them smaller. :mad:

It is at best confusing and at worst intentionally misleading.

Were you under the impression estate agents were honest?

I think we all should stick to the defination issued by the Dept. Environment. I dont have the exact wording at hand but it goes something like - Floor area shall be measured from the finished surface of all external walls and shall include all chimney breasts, stairwells, internal walls/partitions, lobbies etc.

This is my definition from above - gross internal floor area (GIFA) - note it is the internal face of external walls. It is nett (i.e. internal walls deducted) internal floor are that you should consider when buying.

For construction costs, use gross internal floor area - measured to the internal face of external walls, across all internal features.

Victor

http://www.orequalonline.com/BCWebsite/glossary/g.html

Gross Floor Area (GFA): The sum of all covered accessible floor levels whether fully enclosed or partly enclosed, both above and below ground (except unexcavated portions), including floored roof space, circulation space, equipment rooms, lift shafts, vertical ducts, staircases and other useable areas. GFA is measured from the normal inside face of the enclosing or limiting structure, ignoring projections such as plinths, columns and piers. It excludes open (unroofed) courts and light wells and net open areas of upper portions of rooms, atriums, lobbies, halls and interstitial spaces, etc. that extend through the storey being measured. GFA = FECA + UCA. [Adapted from NPWC]

Gross Floor Area: Total of all enclosed spaces fulfilling the functional requirements of the building measured to the internal structural face of the enclosing walls. Includes areas occupied by partitions, columns, chimney breasts, internal structural or party walls, stairwells, lift wells, and the like. Includes lift, plant, tank rooms and the like above the main roof slab. Sloping surfaces such as staircases, galleries, tiered terraces and the like should be measured flat on plan. Excludes any spaces fulfilling the functional requirements of the building which are not enclosed spaces (eg open ground floors, open covered ways and the like). Excludes private balconies and private verandahs. [BCIS Jul 1971]