britain

ronbyrne2005

a friend said this to me "if britain hadnt colonised us it would have been the french or spanish anyway so which woul you have prefered?" i said i never really thought about it?we could be speaking french or spanish now!

netwhizkid

Chances is we'd be speaking Irish and Ian Paisley would a little known Catholic Curate in some part of Co. Antrim.

gurramok

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

a friend said this to me "if britain hadnt colonised us it would have been the french or spanish anyway so which woul you have prefered?" i said i never really thought about it?we could be speaking french or spanish now!

I'd say that their rule would of been alot less bloody than the British as both those countries were strong advocates of the catholic religion and so were the occupied at the time.

mike65

eh? what does that mean? No Catholic shall do harm unto Catholic, like that rule has held firm down the years!

Mike.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Odo... no changeling has ever harmed another

what have you done

Irjudge1

Do you have to choose another country? I'd rather stick with the brits. I don't believe for a second that our history would be less bloody if had been another country had taken us over.

Anyway was it not the Normans who first conquered the country so the French in reality are to blame anyway.

Or the vikings. Oh my god we are so sad we were beaten by the Norwegians and the Danes. At least they left Carlsberg behind. Probably.

Diorraing

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

a friend said this to me "if britain hadnt colonised us it would have been the french or spanish anyway so which woul you have prefered?" i said i never really thought about it?we could be speaking french or spanish now!

Do you really think that the Irish were a race destined to be colonised? Bit of an inferiority complex if you ask me. There is nothing to suggest that either the French or the spannish had any interest in colonising us at all. Who knows, if the Brits hadn't colonised us, perhaps we would have colonised them

Irjudge1

Diorraing wrote:

Who knows, if the Brits hadn't colonised us, perhaps we would have colonised them

Yeah but it's like that old joke. Where would we have kept the prisoners?

flogen

I don't see why that's true, it's a bit of an apologists viewpoint. It would have happened anyway, so we should be happy it was the British, after all they treated us so well.
There's just as much chance if not more that we would have lived happily (as we had been), speaking Irish and praising Jesus. Of course, modern Ireland would be very different economically, I'd be interested to see how the Celtic Tiger would have panned out if we spoke Irish, in my amateur opinion it would have been very different indeed.

ronbyrne2005

Diorraing wrote:

Do you really think that the Irish were a race destined to be colonised? Bit of an inferiority complex if you ask me. There is nothing to suggest that either the French or the spannish had any interest in colonising us at all. Who knows, if the Brits hadn't colonised us, perhaps we would have colonised them

by our small nature we were destined for colonisation,the brits and european countries had large armies/navies etc

Flex

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

by our small nature we were destined for colonisation,the brits and european countries had large armies/navies etc

i dont think so. had it not been for the great famine we would have a fairly big population right now. i think we would have been an independant nation if the british hadnt occupied us. i dont think we ever would have been a leading power in europe, but i think we wouldve been one of the stronger nations.

i think it wouldve been too much hassle for france or spain to occupy ireland

mike65

No oil!

Mike.

Irjudge1

I don't think the French or the Spanish would have considered conquering Ireland as too much hassle when you conisder the usefulness for attacking the British.

Zombrex

Both the French and the Spanish would have loved, absolutely loved, to get their hands on Ireland ... why? Cause it would be a perfect spring board to attack England. You could land troops easily from Scotland to Wales. If England had not invaded us in the early part of the 2nd millenium AD, they defo would have during the middle of the millenium, if only to establish a military presents to stop foreign invaders from using Ireland as a spring board.

Diorraing

Wicknight wrote:

Both the French and the Spanish would have loved, absolutely loved, to get their hands on Ireland ... why? Cause it would be a perfect spring board to attack England. You could land troops easily from Scotland to Wales. If England had not invaded us in the early part of the 2nd millenium AD, they defo would have during the middle of the millenium, if only to establish a military presents to stop foreign invaders from using Ireland as a spring board.

If England hadn't invaded us, we would have had a proper army capable of defending the country. The French and Spannish may well have viewed Ireland as the perfect spring board to attack England but would they have been willing to fight a tough battle, risk continuous harrassment from natives just to have a springboard. I think not.

angry_fox

If england had never invaded Ireland, it would have been invaded more than likely by the french, they would have had the opurtuniy to open up two fronts in england, from the soulth and from the west. Maybe we would have asked for help from the British to help get rid of the invaders.

Winning Hand

angry_fox wrote:

Maybe we would have asked for help from the British to help get rid of the invaders.

Like strongbow then? Oh wait, that was asking the brits for help killing other irish

All pointless supposition

Maskhadov

Personally Im not too hung up who came here. The country is doing alright now and its just all history.

Any new genes from Europe coming into the country is generally a good thing and all those invasions throught the ages did us the world of good.

One thing I did think about was watching Eddie hobbs. He noted that we kicked out all the northern europeans when brian boru won that battle (the only battle we won :P) back in 1015 or something. And it is very concidential that we cant plan a piss up in a brewry let alone infastructure.

Zombrex

Diorraing wrote:

If England hadn't invaded us, we would have had a proper army capable of defending the country.

What are you basing that on?

rsynnott

gurramok wrote:

I'd say that their rule would of been alot less bloody than the British as both those countries were strong advocates of the catholic religion and so were the occupied at the time.

What a silly thread...

And if it had been Spain, we might just be emerging from fascism. No thanks.

Diorraing

Wicknight wrote:

What are you basing that on?

Brian Boru as mentioned earlier. Hugh O'Neill at one stage had between himself and allies in excess of 20,000 armed men - at a time when the English were trying to fully establish control in Irelnad. Therefore I hold that had the British not invaded us we would most likely have had a very strong army. The French and Spannish would surely have felt that it would be to much hassle attacking Ireland for the sake of opening another front up with England

psicic

If we hadn’t been under English control, it's hard to imagine what would have taken place. Let's not forget, there were several 'Kings' in Ireland before the incursion of Strongbow, and any of them would have 'invited' in forces from any of the major powers to help in their internecine warfare. I'd say it would have been impossible to view an Ireland without at least an attempted English presence.

HOWEVER, it was internal politics in Britain that a) was a root cause of the Famine, b) was responsible for relegating Dublin from a premiere capital of Europe and Second City of the Empire to a second-rate city with delusions of grandeur, c) was responsible for the running down of certain areas of industry and commerce(e.g. Cork).

Unpossible

we would most likely have had a very strong army.

I disagree, there was always a lot of infighting between the celtic chieftans (even in the battle of Clontarf there was Irish and Vikings fighting on both sides).
Over the summer I read a book on Bunratty castle, at the beginning it gave the history of the families living there, it looks like there was never even universal opposition aganist the foreign invaders, everyone just wanted power.

So, Im not sure what would have happened if England had not colonised us. One of her enemies would probably have tried to use us as a springboard (as mentioned earlier), or if left alone we would probably have had a lot of political instability through the years.

Maskhadov

what does everyone think about the point of us being very bad at planning and that type of thing ? Its one part of history I would have changed.

Diorraing

Unpossible wrote:

I disagree, there was always a lot of infighting between the celtic chieftans (even in the battle of Clontarf there was Irish and Vikings fighting on both sides).
Over the summer I read a book on Bunratty castle, at the beginning it gave the history of the families living there, it looks like there was never even universal opposition aganist the foreign invaders, everyone just wanted power.

Perhaps then it would be adviseable to read a book about Hugh O'Neill and how all of Connaught, Munster and Ulster rallied behind him. He was, in effect, King of Ireland for most of the 9 years.
Yes there was a lot of infighting in Ireland, as there was in many other places. Ireland wasn't a country "as such" before the English/Norman attack. There were many different tribes but they were now starting to come together and Ireland was moving towards becoming a country under one rule. This never happened as a result of the invasion. Therefor I think it is safe to say that if England hadn't attacked us, we would have eventually been united under one King/Government meaning we would have had a large army which would have deterred the likes of France and Spain attacking us only for the purpose of using us as a springboard.
Of course, this whole discussion is hypothetical and no one cen really say what would have happened but I believe that to be a plausable outcome

Unpossible

Perhaps then it would be adviseable to read a book about Hugh O'Neill and how all of Connaught, Munster and Ulster rallied behind him. He was, in effect, King of Ireland for most of the 9 years.

Sure, can you recomend a few books about this period of Irish history? Preferably books that dont take a "romantic view" of our history.


edit: Im sorry but I cant help but think that Hugh O´Neils "kingdom" would have been short lived. I mean, once the common enemy was gone, why would the country have stayed united under Hugh, or under his heir (who would also have to be a strong leader to keep us united)?


sigh, maybe Im being unfair to our ancestors

Thank Christ it was England, because we speak their lingo.

Imagine all the Irish having to go off and learn Spanish...sure it's not even taught in most schools...

Flex

Diorraing wrote:

Perhaps then it would be adviseable to read a book about Hugh O'Neill and how all of Connaught, Munster and Ulster rallied behind him. He was, in effect, King of Ireland for most of the 9 years.
Yes there was a lot of infighting in Ireland, as there was in many other places. Ireland wasn't a country "as such" before the English/Norman attack. There were many different tribes but they were now starting to come together and Ireland was moving towards becoming a country under one rule. This never happened as a result of the invasion. Therefor I think it is safe to say that if England hadn't attacked us, we would have eventually been united under one King/Government meaning we would have had a large army which would have deterred the likes of France and Spain attacking us only for the purpose of using us as a springboard.
Of course, this whole discussion is hypothetical and no one cen really say what would have happened but I believe that to be a plausable outcome

I agree. I think Ireland would have became a 'proper' kingdom eventually had it not been for the invasion. If it hadnt been for the sheer bad luck of Brian Boru being killed at Clontarf i think the kingdom of Ireland he had established would have continued to exist. And the idea of having a few Kings in ireland subordinate to a High King wouldve been finished too after Brian had made himself Emperor of Ireland. I think someone like Brian Boru wouldve come along again. its all just scenarios about what 'might have been' though.

mike65

Deleted User wrote:

Thank Christ it was England, because we speak their lingo.

Imagine all the Irish having to go off and learn Spanish...sure it's not even taught in most schools...

Post of the Week!

Mike.

LordSutch

Looking at this thread from an Irish Unionist point of view I find the whole notion of Ireland being an Ex British Colony fatuous!
I was watching a documentary on RTE the other night about the so called war of independence (early 1920's) and I couldnt help noticing the large amount of Union Jacks flying all over Cork and Dublin, I am also aware that the Union Flag was flown by the vast majority of people in 1901 to welcome Queen Victoria into Kingstown harbour (Dun Laoghaire) I also know from my Grandmother (Born in Dublin British Passport) that most people back in the 1920's considered themselves Irish/British or vice versa! The whole concept of a Gaelic speaking, Roman Catholic, independent, Anti-British Nation has only come about relatively recently (if you scratch beneath the surface) and so, as a Northern Irish/British person whose flag is the Union Jack (or part of) - (see St Patrick's cross) I share so much of my culture/customs with all the peoples of the British Isles, both Gaelic & Non-Gaelic alike, the island of Britain is our next door neighbour they were once the Worlds Super Power and this Island was part of that Super Power (not by Force) but by choice as we still are in the North, and I think that the worst thing to ever happen in these islands was for the Republic of Ireland to leave the UK and the Commonwealth, specially (in the circumstances that it did) ...............