Is it sexist that there is no official Paternity Leave in Ireland?

Zombrex

Thaedydal wrote:

The building begrudery against children and having children in this country is frankly appaling.

Good point ... I would love to know where this modern idea that children get in the way of a successful economy, which seems to be doing the rounds lately, came from.

The point of both parental leave is that society helps parents during the curical first few weeks to get back on their feet without punishing them or discouraging them for having children by forcing them to take holidays or save large amounts to support unpaid leave.

I see no problem with this and would gladly pay for it with my taxes instead of horse racing substandies or billions to over priced consultency firms who don't deliever anything.

Seeing as I seem to be in a minority of one here, can I ask if everyone is agreed on what the length of that leave should be? I presume it will remain sexist until it is the same length as maternity leave...

Daavid

Hobbes made a suggestion earlier about making it Parental leave instead of Maternal leave and I suppose then it would be up to the parents in each situation to decide what is best for them.

FatherTed

What's the problem with using a few week's of your holidays? It's not like you're going to be jetting off to Thailand or Fiji with your new born baby anyway. Jeez, talk about some Nanny-State. Suck it up.

Seth Brundle

Thaedydal wrote:

Yes it is wrong that there is legally mandated paid paterinty leave.
Really the 3 days off most companys give ( they are not legally obliged to ) is
not enough.

Having a child is a big event and a life changing one and is even more hard work
if there are older siblings to the new arrival and parents should be better supported.

The week following my sons birth, my employer decided to give me work starting from 8:30am until 9:30pm for two weeks. Being on contract [rather loosely!] I didn't have the opportunity to say no! I was unable to give my wife or son the support they needed during this period.

Paternity leave is not supported properly here as the business lobby would be against the idea of having to pay for time off! Its as simple as that IMO.
However, as for it being sexist, whats new? Look at the governments handling on other equality issues - gay marriage, female salaries Vs male salaries, etc.

Daavid

FatherTed wrote:

What's the problem with using a few week's of your holidays? It's not like you're going to be jetting off to Thailand or Fiji with your new born baby anyway. Jeez, talk about some Nanny-State. Suck it up.

Yeah, you're probably right, and while we're at it, once the mother has healed sufficiently to re-start work we should cut their leave and send them back out too. Don't wanna live in a nanny state now do we. (Spot the sarcasm)

Hobbes

Really the 3 days off most companys give ( they are not legally obliged to ) is not enough.

Sounds like Force Majeure leave which you can claim for 3 days paid leave in 12 months or 5 days in 36 months.

FatherTed

Daavid wrote:

Yeah, you're probably right, and while we're at it, once the mother has healed sufficiently to re-start work we should cut their leave and send them back out too. Don't wanna live in a nanny state now do we. (Spot the sarcasm)

There ya go, not problemo with that one

Seriously though, I've got 3 kids and took two weeks vacation for each. Next thing we'll be having non-parents complaining that fathers get extra paid leave for doing Sweet fa.

Daavid

But the point is that its not sweet fa. Much of what a mother does during Maternal Leave is what fathers want to do these days, as has been said before times are a changin'. Men do want to be involved in their families lives more and more. Fair play, you took holidays off for your kids, as have I and will I. We just shouldn't have to is all.

Edit : Gotta go, I'll finish this in the morning.

lazydaisy

Daavid wrote:

But the point is that its not sweet fa. Much of what a mother does during Maternal Leave is what fathers want to do these days, as has been said before times are a changin'. Men do want to be involved in their families lives more and more. Fair play, you took holidays off for your kids, as have I and will I. We just shouldn't have to is all.

Edit : Gotta go, I'll finish this in the morning.

You mean like breastfeeding? I cant wait to see the bras that will come out for men once they get paternity leave. Or the stretch marks. Or the mood fluctuations. How about post-natal depression? Extra weight you have to lose? How about a sore vagina? Would you like that too? Then we can talk about equality.

MrPudding

lazydaisy wrote:

You mean like breastfeeding? I cant wait to see the bras that will come out for men once they get paternity leave. Or the stretch marks. Or the mood fluctuations. How about post-natal depression? Extra weight you have to lose? How about a sore vagina? Would you like that too? Then we can talk about equality.

I am sure he is actually talking about things he can actually do. You know like bathing the child, allowing his wife / GF to go have a shower or a bath, feed the child with a bottle, clean the house, look after the other kids, keep his wife / gf company and give her an adult to talk to, go to the shops.

Enough of the suffering woman thing already. We know what women go through. But do you know what? It isn't our fault. We didn't make it that way.

He obviously wants to help his partner in any way he can which nature will allow him to. He should be commended for that not targetted for sarcastic posts from someone that seems to have a monstrous chip on their shoulder.

MrP

seamus

lazydaisy wrote:

You mean like breastfeeding? I cant wait to see the bras that will come out for men once they get paternity leave. Or the stretch marks. Or the mood fluctuations. How about post-natal depression? Extra weight you have to lose? How about a sore vagina? Would you like that too? Then we can talk about equality.

All of these things are the reason *why* he's looking for paternity leave. Perhaps so his wife doesn't have to suffer these things alone. Perhaps so that instead of standing in her dressing gown, rocking a baby to sleep, all the while with a "sore vagina", she can stay in bed, try to get some rest, while he cares for the child.

Seriously, why begrudge the man because he wants to help in the only ways he can?

MrPudding

MrPudding wrote:

He obviously wants to help his partner in any way he can which nature will allow him to.

Dunno about that. Not in the sense that he doesn't want to help, but dunno if your summary is accurate. I would phrase it more like this...

'He obviously wants to help his partner in any way he can which nature will allow him to and wants to get paid leave to do so'

I don't think anyone has or should have any issue with the former, it's the bit I tacked on that causes me a slight difficulty. However, in fairness to the OP he has made a suggestion which has merit - redesignate maternity leave as parental leave and allow the parents to carve it up or use it as they see fit.

Johnee

lazydaisy wrote:

You mean like breastfeeding? I cant wait to see the bras that will come out for men once they get paternity leave. Or the stretch marks. Or the mood fluctuations. How about post-natal depression? Extra weight you have to lose? How about a sore vagina? Would you like that too? Then we can talk about equality.

I have to say, the thing I never understand about this debate is when women oppose the idea of paternity leave. Having only maternity leave is arguably the single biggest legal impediment to women being treated as a fully equal member of the workforce because it confirms them as the one in a family situation who is going to have to give up work and look after a newborn. And a firm is always going to regard them as such when giving out promotions etc.

Parental leave is what is required if women want full equality - so that it is for each couple (or individual as the case may be) to decide who looks after the child for the first few months of its development, depending on personal preferences, finances, etc.

If anyone has been to Scandanavia, you'll notice an abundance of young couples looking after their newborns together, in the morning, around town, and so on. And I personally think that's great - it's monumentally short-sighted to bleat on about it being a waste of taxes, and then face the consequences of a society where parents are given no time to bring up their children in a stable family unit where both parents are around.

And, yes, I know many parents bring up their children perfectly well in other situations. But we should be doing all we can to make that ideal easier to achieve for couples, not some Utopian fantasy.

annR

LazyDaisy I think you misinterpreted Daavid's post. Of course men shouldn't be begrudged because they want to help their wives after childbirth. And it's not always a case of him getting a chance to change a few nappies so she can rest. What about the poor couples where the woman develops health complications, or when the baby isn't well? My poor brother got 1 day's leave and then spent his 2 weeks holidays rushing them in and out of hospital and then had to go back to work and leave her there. I think that's shocking.

The fact is that community support and sisters and mothers etc just aren't around to help new mothers the way they used to be. They're either working or live in a different part of the country or something. Paternal leave has to make up for that.

>>As fathers we already have an entitlement to unpaid leave that does not eat into holidays. The point the OP was trying to make was men to not have an option for paid leave.<<

Is there that entitlement for unpaid leave or is it down to the employer? What exactly is the current entitlement?

Lemming

Deleted User wrote:

I would phrase it more like this...

'He obviously wants to help his partner in any way he can which nature will allow him to and wants to get paid leave to do so'

In short what you are saying is:

"If you are rich, society will let you take a couple of weeks off to look after your newborn/help the mother of/ etc"

Since you wanted to be so blunt about it, I'll be equally blunt Conor and call a spade a spade.

Why aren't you suggesting that we take away paid maternity leave? Why not? Because there'd be f*cking murder over it? Because it's grossly unfair not to mention damaging to society? Geeh, whizz, what'dye know?!! ...

seamus

annR wrote:

Is there that entitlement for unpaid leave or is it down to the employer? What exactly is the current entitlement?

Any parent may take up to 14 weeks unpaid leave in any 12 months for each child they have under five years of age.

The only requirement is that you've been working with the company for a year. A big problem is that this cannot be used for days when the mother might suddenly turn ill, or those unplanned events where the father must stay home to look after the child - you must give 6 weeks notice in writing. If the above occur, then it is as others have said - the father must take a day's leave.

Lemming

Lemming wrote:

"If you are rich, society will let you take a couple of weeks off to look after your newborn/help the mother of/ etc"

Not necessarily rich, but of course would assume that most people should take their financial situation into account to some extent when planning a family. I mean, if a person can't afford a few weeks off work, maybe it's not an ideal time to have a child...though I appreciate that planning may be a bit of an ideal rather than the norm.

Either way, is there any way that work and new born babies could be combined? Seems to me that they could make ideal paperweights...

http://www.dmai.de/daily_pic/officebaby.jpg

kc66

Do the anti-paternity leave posters think fathers are looking for paid leave because it will be like a holiday? Well its not- it would probably be easier to go into work at 9oclock and do the days work. It is the natural and fair thing to do- to be at home helping out for that first couple of weeks, for both the mother and baby. It is definitely not relaxing time.

kc66

kc66 wrote:

Do the anti-paternity leave posters think fathers are looking for paid leave because it will be like a holiday?

No.

MrPudding

No, not a holiday. More like a trip to the cinema or a football match.

MrP

lazydaisy

Who currently pays for the leave? Is it the company or the government?

Nevyn

you have to say what type leave you are asking about Lazydaisy,

Materinty leave is paid to 75% of the womans earnings if she is working by
the government, some companies choose to make up the rest.

There is no provision for paid Paterity leave in this country,
some companies give 3 days paid leave.

There is no provision for paid parental leave in this country
parental leave is unpaid and must be agreed between the company and parent as to when it will begin.

Hobbes

lazydaisy wrote:

Who currently pays for the leave? Is it the company or the government?

Neither. Parental leave you don't get money for the time off.

Hobbes

MrPudding wrote:

No, not a holiday. More like a trip to the cinema or a football match.

MrP

Yea a real holiday. :v:

Try going to work when your wife is alone and suffering Post Natal depression

lazydaisy

Hobbes wrote:

Neither. Parental leave you don't get money for the time off.

Oh ok. Why are some people talking about their tax money going to subsidise father's time off work?

Hobbes

lazydaisy wrote:

Oh ok. Why are some people talking about their tax money going to subsidise father's time off work?

Because some people feel that paternity leave should be covered as well.

MrPudding

MrPudding wrote:

No, not a holiday. More like a trip to the cinema or a football match.

Neither are like childbirth, in the sense that they last at least 90 minutes, you have to put some thought into the finances, and noone leaves the cinema or the football ground expecting the taxpayers to reimburse them and moans about the lack of support...

lazydaisy

Wait Hobbes- I'm confused.

You said parental leave is unpaid - by parental does that mean maternity or paternity?

Thaedydal said 75% of maternity leave[which is the woman's salery] is paid by the government - given that men make far more than women, the cost of paternity leave would be enormous to the government if it were to be based on a percentage of the man's salary? Plus the bureaucratic nightmare that would be involved. Separated fathers who are still married but starting new families, adjustments in child support, unmarried fathers, fathers who are not living with the mother or the baby, yikes!

ArthurDent

lazydaisy wrote:

Wait Hobbes- I'm confused.

You said parental leave is unpaid - by parental does that mean maternity or paternity?

Thaedydal said 75% of maternity leave[which is the woman's salery] is paid by the government - given that men make far more than women, the cost of paternity leave would be enormous to the government if it were to be based on a percentage of the man's salary? Plus the bureaucratic nightmare that would be involved. Separated fathers who are still married but starting new families, adjustments in child support, unmarried fathers, fathers who are not living with the mother or the baby, yikes!

Parental leave is seperate to matrenity/paternity leave: 14 weeks to be taken by the child is 5, it is unpaid and must be at times agreed by your employer.

Maternity benefit currently paid for 18 weeks , rising next year to 22 is paid by government 75% of salary up to a maximum of 249 euros a week
( equivalent to a gross annual salary of 17264 euros) - most women full time in the workforce earn way more than this, but there is no obligation for their employer to make up the difference. 22 * 249 is only 5.5 k approx , most people pay more than this in tax every year, small price to pay to keep talented, well educated, dedicated workers in workplace.

Not sure where you're coming from on it being a bureaucratric nightmare if paid paternity leave was introduced - it would be managed in exactly the same manner as maternity benefit, disability benefit etc - if you are a paye worker all it boils down to is your pps number.