The love Ulster ( FAIR and the DUP ) to march in Dublin

Benedict XVI

gurramok wrote:

This is not just a one-sided 'victims' march, it includes the sectarian Orange Order who ban non-protestant membership.

As I stated above there is an peacefull Orange Parade in Donegal every July, so what's the difference if they have one in Dublin

gurramok wrote:

and loyalist paramilitaries. Just have a look at the pictures of them on tv in the last march in Belfast, it was disgusting.

Where ?, I had a look at the pictures on their website www.loveulster.com, lots of flute bands and orange paraphanelia, but no trappings of loyalist paramilitaries.
Any links ?

Any march by this group could be no worse that the spectical we were presented with on the day befor the All Ireland Football final by republicans

murphaph

growler wrote:

Do they have the right to march in a foreign country of which they are not citizens ?

Notwithstanding the fact that constitutionally speaking these folks are not "non-nationals", from their perspective a foreign government in Dail Eireann is interfering in their country and there is no getting away from the fact that this is true, so they have a right to petition the Government of Ireland if they want. Ideally our government would not be involved in the internal affairs of NI and would spend all their time governing our part ofthis island while fully cooperating with our neighbours in matters of common concern, like transport and security etc.

A Dub in Glasgo

Of course they can march in Dublin if the government agrees to it. I wonder will they wait till people are leaving Mass to harass them. Will they stop outside a Catholic church and sing 'Up to our knees in Fenian blood, surrender or you will die' in unison.

Ironic that the very people who claim NI nationalists are not Irish now claim that NI unionists have a right to march in Dublin.

Sand

Ironic that the very people who claim NI nationalists are not Irish now claim that NI unionists have a right to march in Dublin.

If SFIRA are allowed to parade down here in fascist style complete with pseudo military uniforms and posing with fake weaponry, then why cant other people march here? I wouldnt recognise them as citizens of the Republic (they are fellow EU citizens so Id imagine they have certain rights to protest under EU agreements either way?), I just couldnt give a toss if they want to march. Let them. They dont think my government has any right to intefere in the affairs of their country, Provos dont think they have any right to march here. Most people just dont care.

you seem remarkably unable to afford the same "inclusion" to your direct counterparts, and they are your _direct_ counterparts. They are identical to you in every way shape and form of mentality and attitude. You are the exact same coin, just the flip side.

Spot on. SFIRA will probably do everything in its power to prevent any appearance of organised trouble, but only because it doesnt want the political strife it would cause - not because it seriously believes in the sort of inclusion it spouts.

If its tough for Provos to imagine an Orange march (and this isnt actually an Orange march per se, but it rapidly becomes so in the public imagination) in Dublin they must dread an actual United Ireland which would be far, far less green than they seem to imagine. Scots-Ulster as the 3rd national language? A United Ireland in the British Commonwealth? Irelands Call as the new national anthem? Revision of republican orientated history books in schools to a more "balanced" perspective? The list of possible compromises to appease the new Ulster Unionist minority in a United Ireland could have Provos running for their sick buckets.

mike65

Can I just add that this thread is far too resonable, the rabble on After Hours feels more 'real'

Mike.

gurramok

Benedict XVI wrote:

As I stated above there is an peacefull Orange Parade in Donegal every July, so what's the difference if they have one in Dublin

Difference, they are welcome there in a non-residential area (ie beach) with no trouble

Benedict XVI wrote:

Where ?, I had a look at the pictures on their website www.loveulster.com, lots of flute bands and orange paraphanelia, but no trappings of loyalist paramilitaries.
Any links ?

UTV Live, BBC Newsline if you watch the tv news, it gives you insight on what really goes on in this movement and its real objectives
Anyway from sdlp themselves on love ulster links to paramilitaries http://www.sdlp.ie/prmaginnesshystericalrallies.shtm
Another http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2005/09/04/story7642.asp
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/story/22385

A Dub in Glasgo

Sand wrote:

If SFIRA are allowed to parade down here in fascist style complete with pseudo military uniforms and posing with fake weaponry, then why cant other people march here?

Please point out where I said they could not or have you just gone off on another rant?

I thought Berlin has copyrighted on that Love Parade thing...:eek:

AngelofFire

This is not just a one-sided 'victims' march, it includes the sectarian Orange Order who ban non-protestant membership, and loyalist paramilitaries

I was refering purely to FAIR not the the orange order or loyalist paramilitaries.

FreaK_BrutheR

Why do people on these boards seem so afraid to say they are proud to be Irish? I am not from Dublin so I don't really understand just how distant you all feel you are from the North or how ashamed you are of people "up there" (in your country) being proud Irish people who want to stand up for their nation.

Nationalism is not a dirty word. Many an injustice has been put right because the pole had pride in their country and would not lie down to bullying, no matter how long it went on.

I stress that I do not believe in violence ( I can imagine how many people read the first paragraph and assumed I was talking about popel taking up arms) but that does not make me me ashamed to say that we (We are Irish)have been been overrun for centuries by an invading force and I personally would like it put right. I have no shame in this whatsoever.

The Orange Order is based around William of Orange's Victory over the Catholic James 2. It is a glorification in the face of Catholics that they were defeated by a Protestant Dutch Man. It is a sectarian movement and obviously attracts an element of Unionist hard liners because of the taunting effect it has. The KKK would not be allowed to march through Harlem, The Neo Nazis through Jerusalem and similarly should the Orange order should not be allowed march through Catholic areas of the North. Its antagonistic at best. Traditional routes were traditional routes when we were in penal times in this country and subservient. We are not any more and shouldn't feel for an instant afarid to say we will not be again!

As for marching in Dublin... well I don't know. In the statement in the Times the organisations have said they will carry the union jack and the ulster flag but will not carry the tricolour. I think its interesting they felt the need to state that anyway. I mean there was aquote of 2 lines and they decided the most important thing they could say was that?

Anyway Im Irish and Im very god damn proud of it! Im equally as proud of my general pacifist stance.

Jaden

FreaK_BrutheR wrote:

The Orange Order is based around William of Orange's Victory over the Catholic James 2. It is a glorification in the face of Catholics that they were defeated by a Protestant Dutch Man.

There were a number of Protestants fighting on the side of James, and a number of Catholics fighting on the side of William of Orange.

As I recall, William had the Popes blessing and consent, as he would put a stop to the scourge of French imperialism, as the Vatican viewed it.

The religious lines were drawn much later.

Linky:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Boyne

Sponge Bob

If some bollox with a Lambeg interrupts the deserved slumbers of this Sponge I may feel the irrational urge to lob a missile in his direction with the intention of hitting him or his drum.

FreaK_BrutheR

Lets not be pedantic Jaden. The majority under James II were catholic and the majority under William were Protestant.

The sectarianism that grew from the battle is very obvious despite as you said the Pope's support for William of Orange. The Catholic church and the pope have had their hand in nearly every attorcity in history by my reckoning. I actually didn't know the pope had supported William of Orange I'm sure Paisley would love his support now!!!

The religious lines I feel were drawn earlier when Irish people were not allowed to practice their religion, hold office in their country and lost their land... anyway is till stand beside the staement

"The Orange Order is based around William of Orange's Victory over the Catholic James 2." this is true...

"It is a glorification in the face of Catholics that they were defeated by a Protestant Dutch Man." This is also true

whether catholic fought under william or not or whether the pope condoned it at the time does not change what the orange order stands for. The orange order exists to commemorat that battle... they did not fight in it. The order was set up about 100 years later when the lines were well and truely dran.

Jaden

I dispute nothing you've said (except the bit about me being pedantic!).

My point about the Pope's support for William of Orange merely demonstrates that if Orangemen want to celebrate the outcome of a 300+ year old battle that resulted in a victory for the Papacy, then fire away. I consider it a little silly, but generally harmless. Why should that bother me? Is it in manner in which it is celebrated the bit that should bother me? Should it bother me any more or less than a St Patricks day parade should bother Protestants?

murphaph

FreaK_BrutheR wrote:

Why do people on these boards seem so afraid to say they are proud to be Irish?

Well I can only speak for myself, but I refuse to be 'proud' of an accident of birth. I could have been born in Swaziland or Fiji, so why should I be 'proud' of the country I was born in just by chance??? It's this type of blind pride (nationalism) that causes half the bloody problems in the first place. We're all human beings not clones unveiled from under our national flags. I can understand one's pride if one's child excels at school or whatever because it's something you had an input into, but you had no input into what nationality you would be. I'm rambling now.....anyway, that's my $0.02.

Jaden

"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it."

Flex

murphaph wrote:

Well I can only speak for myself, but I refuse to be 'proud' of an accident of birth. I could have been born in Swaziland or Fiji, so why should I be 'proud' of the country I was born in just by chance??? It's this type of blind pride (nationalism) that causes half the bloody problems in the first place. We're all human beings not clones unveiled from under our national flags. I can understand one's pride if one's child excels at school or whatever because it's something you had an input into, but you had no input into what nationality you would be. I'm rambling now.....anyway, that's my $0.02.

Do you support the Ireland team in sporting events, etc.?

Anyway, im very proud of the fact im Irish, im proud of my country and im proud of its history.

murphaph

Flex wrote:

Do you support the Ireland team in sporting events, etc.?

Yeah I go to all of our home internationals and quite a few away games, but if we do well at soccer I'm able to be proud of the lads, not proud of 'Ireland' or of just 'being irish'. I'm happy to differentiate a sporting event to nationalism because a healthy competition with my fellow man is no harm, it helps us all as a species to progress and so on. It so happens that national boundaries are useful ways of grouping people together for team events, just like local club football-should people who support the Dubs be proud of being a Dub too? If so, why?

Flex wrote:

Anyway, im very proud of the fact im Irish, im proud of my country and im proud of its history.

You're proud of your country and it's history? That's a very fluffy statement I have to say. It's almost meaningless in fact. Are you proud of the gangland killings and the chronic litter problem, one of the worst heroin addiction rates per capita in Europe, the crappy public transport, the crappy roads? I mean, you may be proud of individuals and of indivudual incidents in our history, but your blanket pride seems misplaced.

gurramok

murphaph wrote:

You're proud of your country and it's history? That's a very fluffy statement I have to say. It's almost meaningless in fact. Are you proud of the gangland killings and the chronic litter problem, one of the worst heroin addiction rates per capita in Europe, the crappy public transport, the crappy roads? I mean, you may be proud of individuals and of indivudual incidents in our history, but your blanket pride seems misplaced.

He is proud of his ethinicity and culture of his country, not the govt policies of the day nor individual groups who stain the image of the country(heroin abusers)
That is the distinction.

murphaph

gurramok wrote:

He is proud of his ethinicity and culture of his country, not the govt policies of the day nor individual groups who stain the image of the country(heroin abusers)
That is the distinction.

Again, I find that quite fluffy. What is the 'culture' of Ireland?

And what is his 'ethnicity' - how do you kow he's not as black as the ace of spades? and if he is, is that something that should make him proud of being irish??

(Personally when I hear of people being proud of their ethnicity I get to thinking of
http://img187.exs.cx/img187/815/belsencamp5ue.jpg

and

these people

A Dub in Glasgo

Totally off topic all this is so I will ask one question... What are you proud of?

gurramok

murphaph wrote:

Again, I find that quite fluffy. What is the 'culture' of Ireland?

And what is his 'ethnicity' - how do you kow he's not as black as the ace of spades? and if he is, is that something that should make him proud of being irish??

(Personally when I hear of people being proud of their ethnicity I get to thinking of
http://img187.exs.cx/img187/815/belsencamp5ue.jpg

and

these people

(For the bracket stuff...No need to bring up disgusting pictures of mass graves, it has nothing to do with the topic. Maybe you don't understand the difference between proud of your culture and mass murder. If so, i take it you have a problem with Germans.)

On your question, have you ever heard of the 'black Irish', they are as Irish as white Irish. Both sets are proud of where they are from and their customs, their way of life etc
If your from ireland if you say you do, you will have been taught aspects of Irish culture in your school.

murphaph

gurramok wrote:

(For the bracket stuff...No need to bring up disgusting pictures of mass graves, it has nothing to do with the topic.

Sure it does. A 'pride' in one's ethnicity has and continues to lead to genocide all around the world. If you find the pictures disgusting remember how it all started with a 'pride' in the aryan race.

gurramok wrote:

Maybe you don't understand the difference between proud of your culture and mass murder.

The picture was posted in response your 'proud of his ethnicity' remark, and I was quite explicit in that when I posted it so please don't play dumb and make out like it was in response to your 'irish culture' remark.

gurramok wrote:

On your question, have you ever heard of the 'black Irish', they are as Irish as white Irish. Both sets are proud of where they are from and their customs, their way of life etc

But what is particularly irish about him being black (if he is)? What has his ethnicity got to do with being proud of Ireland???

gurramok wrote:

If your from ireland if you say you do, you will have been taught aspects of Irish culture in your school.

Cop out answer. Are you talking about Peig or what?

gurramok

murphaph wrote:

Sure it does. A 'pride' in one's ethnicity has and continues to lead to genocide all around the world. If you find the pictures disgusting remember how it all started with a 'pride' in the aryan race.

The picture was posted in response your 'proud of his ethnicity' remark, and I was quite explicit in that when I posted it so please don't play dumb and make out like it was in response to your 'irish culture' remark.

If you know your history, it was a minority party(nazi) who abused their german heritage to further their aims of wiping out other peoples, irrelavant to the discussion.

murphaph wrote:

But what is particularly irish about him being black (if he is)? What has his ethnicity got to do with being proud of Ireland???
Cop out answer. Are you talking about Peig or what?

Proud of your culture and the wish to maintain that heritage.
To save me typing out pages of what Irish culture is, here you go from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_culture
Peig is a bad aspect of it, don't read Peig..read the wikipedia instead and Enjoy
On topic, will you be attending this march when it happens?
You might see some lovely Orange culture as well which one can learn alot just like folks on Garvaghy rd.

murphaph

gurramok wrote:

If you know your history, it was a minority party(nazi) who abused their german heritage to further their aims of wiping out other peoples, irrelavant to the discussion.

It beggars belief that you think national socialism as espoused by the NSDAP is irrelevant when we are talking in the context of 'pride in one's ethnicity'. Anyhow, I'll let it slide as it is drifting way OT.

gurramok wrote:

Proud of your culture and the wish to maintain that heritage.
To save me typing out pages of what Irish culture is, here you go from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_culture
Peig is a bad aspect of it, don't read Peig..read the wikipedia instead and Enjoy

Thank u! I'm now all 'proudified'.

gurramok wrote:

On topic, will you be attending this march when it happens?

Nope.

gurramok wrote:

You might see some lovely Orange culture as well which one can learn alot just like folks on Garvaghy rd.

The OO don't march down the Garvaghy Road and haven't done so in years. :rolleyes:

Why don't we just let this march proceed and see how it pans out before all jumping to condemn it. If the primary issue of this march is to highlight the injustice that is the proposed OTR legislation in these islands then they have my support in that regards. It's an affront to the victims of terrorists (and corrupt security forces if they are ultimately included) that the perpetrators will be able to just get on with life without even appearing before a tribunal.

AngelofFire

Should it bother me any more or less than a St Patricks day parade should bother Protestants?

Why would we protestants be bothered by Saint Patricks day, we celebrate it ourselves, and the national cathedral of the Church of Ireland is called after Saint Patrick.

Jaden

Exactly. However, St Patricks day parades in Belfast tend to tie some people's knickers up in a know. Just like the 12th of July celebrations, it can be hijacked by one side of the community and used as a tool to provoke the other. Silly I know, but hey.

FreaK_BrutheR

St Patricks day does not celebrate the winning of a battle that ended up with the near enslavement of af a race of people. St Patricks day is not an order set up to commemorate the defeat of a whole religion. St Patrick is the celebration of the patron Saint of the Island of Ireland.

"Well I can only speak for myself, but I refuse to be 'proud' of an accident of birth. I could have been born in Swaziland or Fiji, so why should I be 'proud' of the country I was born in just by chance???"

(dunno how to do the swanky quote thing!)
Im proud of the fact that Im a fairly good artist - freak of birth. Im proud to be part of my family - freak of birth. Im proud of my son - freak of birth (erm that sounds wierd but you knoiw what I mean!:)). Every emotiona nd feeling you have is a freak of birth - your prersonality your brining up etc... I think this boils down alot to how passionate a person you are. What does make you passionate or proud?

Life is too short for questioning and reasoning every little detail of our emotions and intellect sometimes its better to just go weith them. If everyone anylsed things that much we'd be a very boring bunch of people and I for one love that we aren't. I mean we can be completly reasoned about everything and tread carefully all the time but then everything becomes so fu(kin drearyily PC and drab we may as well be clones and forget we have free will, choice and are individuals.

BuffyBot

Enslavement?

Diorraing

FreaK_BrutheR wrote:

Why do people on these boards seem so afraid to say they are proud to be Irish? I am not from Dublin so I don't really understand just how distant you all feel you are from the North or how ashamed you are of people "up there" (in your country) being proud Irish people who want to stand up for their nation.

Nationalism is not a dirty word. Many an injustice has been put right because the pole had pride in their country and would not lie down to bullying, no matter how long it went on.

I stress that I do not believe in violence ( I can imagine how many people read the first paragraph and assumed I was talking about popel taking up arms) but that does not make me me ashamed to say that we (We are Irish)have been been overrun for centuries by an invading force and I personally would like it put right. I have no shame in this whatsoever.

The Orange Order is based around William of Orange's Victory over the Catholic James 2. It is a glorification in the face of Catholics that they were defeated by a Protestant Dutch Man. It is a sectarian movement and obviously attracts an element of Unionist hard liners because of the taunting effect it has. The KKK would not be allowed to march through Harlem, The Neo Nazis through Jerusalem and similarly should the Orange order should not be allowed march through Catholic areas of the North. Its antagonistic at best. Traditional routes were traditional routes when we were in penal times in this country and subservient. We are not any more and shouldn't feel for an instant afarid to say we will not be again!

As for marching in Dublin... well I don't know. In the statement in the Times the organisations have said they will carry the union jack and the ulster flag but will not carry the tricolour. I think its interesting they felt the need to state that anyway. I mean there was aquote of 2 lines and they decided the most important thing they could say was that?

Anyway Im Irish and Im very god damn proud of it! Im equally as proud of my general pacifist stance.

Post of the month!!! Good man