The love Ulster ( FAIR and the DUP ) to march in Dublin

Jaden

FreaK_BrutheR wrote:

St Patricks day does not celebrate the winning of a battle that ended up with the near enslavement of af a race of people. St Patricks day is not an order set up to commemorate the defeat of a whole religion. St Patrick is the celebration of the patron Saint of the Island of Ireland.

St. Patricks day celebrates the almost complete destruction of our Pagan heritage, apparently by the Welsh son of a Roman Citizen, in favour of a Jewish-born outlaw's teachings.

The lording of a triumph of one religion over another could not be more obvious. In this regard it is a exactly the same as celebrating the Glorious 12th.

My own opinion of that it is pointless to get worked up over such displays. Anyone who does is invariably playing the "As a patriot, I'm offended by your display of patriotism" card. We're all sharing the same lump of blue green rock, it's about time we realized that imaginary lines drawn on maps should not be a point of division, any more than splitting hairs on the finer points of what is essentially the same religion.

tornadotomas

Sand wrote:

A bit of a rallying cry for their movement, topped up with "confirmation" that their traditions arent safe in a United Ireland.

interesting point, so maybe completely ignoring the march, like a 'whatever' approach may be the best but i cant see the, how shall i put this.. knackers of the city giving the parade any thought other then, yea lets throw stones at them, they're not from here.

tornadotomas

i agree that if a united ireland comes to fruitiion then they have the right to parade in their own country, if the march next year goes ahead then they are marching in 'technically' another country. how would england react if the germans decided to march on London with German flags? they'd nuke them (im sure George would help out)

Sand

interesting point, so maybe completely ignoring the march, like a 'whatever' approach may be the best but i cant see the, how shall i put this.. knackers of the city giving the parade any thought other then, yea lets throw stones at them, they're not from here.

Oh yeah, its guaranteed the usual suspects will descend looking for a scrap, deadly buzz man!!! Skangers and pseudo patriotism are a volatile combination. Like I said, SFIRA will do everything in its power to keep real trouble from breaking out, but they will also want to ensure the "Not Welcome" mat is put out, so the possibility of organised "spontaneous" protest is very high.

I honestly, and I mean honestly, couldnt care less if they march in the city. I for one, intensely dislike SFIRA, but apart from the sense of "WTF was *that*?" I got as a parade truck covered in combat webbing, filled with British soliders and balaclaved paramilitaries singing some Wolfe Tones ballad sped past me on the quays on morning, it didnt really bother me that they were marching either. The militant message they were putting forward does, but I wont be throwing stones or balloons filled of piss. Theyre armed for one thing...

I think these Love Ulster guys know this[the threat of violence], so I cant see them actually going ahead with it. The "March on Dublin" rallies the troops, whilst being "forced" to withdraw due to the threat of violence means they can say their traditions would face the same violence and persecution in a United Ireland.

Which to be honest, isnt too far wrong. When Provos talk about a United Ireland, most of their views are pure fantasy/genocidal as to how Ulster Unionists would be appeased/dealt with. If it really sticks in the craw of some to see an Orange band in Dublin, how will they deal with the reality of a United Ireland that will have to include the Orange tradition in its official institutions?

My own opinion of that it is pointless to get worked up over such displays. Anyone who does is invariably playing the "As a patriot, I'm offended by your display of patriotism" card.

Very true. Some people might say Ulster Unionists are Irish, not British but they get upset if they demonstrate that they are a different "sort" of Irish.

FreaK_BrutheR

Okay okay. If we look back far enough at anyone's heritgae and history we will find they all from savages in the end I agree with that.

I understand that you don't care about imaginary lines drawn on maps etc. but society, cultures and diversity are all things that should be embraced in my opinion. If we do away with these imaginary lines or whatever are we not loosing some of that identity and diversity?

The world however much you may think it should be is not a global culture. It is not even close. It is impossible to see the world through any other means than your own eyes and miind... a mind that has been moulded by the culutre and society you have been brought up in. To turn away from that culture is quite rare and in reality to turn away you undoubtedly have to embrace another culture instead. Cyber culture, which is obviously online not based in reality, can trancend the obvious boundaries reality and your situation creates but do you want to pick and choose what you want to see and experience? Do you really want to have such a limited social interaction with fellow human beings that can so obviously not really relate to you and your situation?

The making of one world race, one world people, one world nation is an unbelievably scary thought in my opinion. The toning down of cultural differences and diversity. The blending of all races and cultures. I don't think any society in the world is ready for that - to embrace EVERYONE's culture let alone just your neighbours. Im certainly not ready for the blandness of it at any rate.

Anyway we are drifting from the point and I am thinkin, as ever, on my toes without giving this obviously inetersting and serious subject my true attention.

allin-king

i totally agree with Frank_Bruthers earlier post, and i'd like to ask Sand who SFIRA are because there i have never heard of such an orginization!

Maybe he could keep listening to the likes of Ian Paisley and he might be marching in that parade as well


There is a major anti - nationalist vibe on this forum yet if i was to speak out about unionists there would be a completely different reaction. Why is this?

Diorraing

allin-king wrote:

There is a major anti - nationalist vibe on this forum yet if i was to speak out about unionists there would be a completely different reaction. Why is this?

Tell me about it!!! After Fr. Reid's comments comparing the treatment of nationalists to that of the Jews in the 1930s in Germany, the people on this thread were up in arms. A week later I started a thread about Sammy Wilson who called people who voted for Alex Maksey "sub-human". Sand and his friends remained silent about that one.
The reason for it is insecurity. They see the huge advances made by the republican movement and they object to it (which they have every right to) but instead of proper debate we read this SFIRA mudslinging. It is to be pitied and laughed at

BuffyBot

There is a major anti - nationalist vibe on this forum yet if i was to speak out about unionists there would be a completely different reaction. Why is this?

Because it's in your head? Perhaps go read up some more of the threads in which the Unionists have gotten just as much scorn heaped upon them..but of course, people believe what they want to believe.

Anyway, as for FAIR - after reading their site, they appear to come under the heading of "slightly nutty". How that pans out as a demonstration is anyone's guess!

Sand

i totally agree with Frank_Bruthers earlier post, and i'd like to ask Sand who SFIRA are because there i have never heard of such an orginization!

Denial. Check.

Maybe he could keep listening to the likes of Ian Paisley and he might be marching in that parade as well

West Brit allegation. Check.

There is a major anti - nationalist vibe on this forum yet if i was to speak out about unionists there would be a completely different reaction. Why is this?

Declaration of persecution. Check.

Yep, typical by-the-numbers provo post. Next.

A Dub in Glasgo

Anyone who thinks that Sinn Fein and the IRA are different organisations is a 'typical by-the-numbers provo' according to our resident 'democrat'. Quite sad really

Maskhadov

I havent a clue where this thread is going. It looks like another all ireland island discussion as opposed to the love ulster parade.

How did the parade go anyways? I never seen it even on the telly , radio or newpapers ! ! !

As for the north. I lived up there for a long time and to be honest I developed a real dislike for the unionist community.

I think its all to do with the society you live in. I wouldnt allow them to march anywhere in the north. Neither would I let them dictate their entry into the republic of ireland (should that ever be on the cards).

The ones I spoke to got the impression that they would be over certain parts of the country, like actually owning departments and stuff. Crazy!!! I told them that they would be sprinkled all through departments individually and there would be zero changes in the republic to facilitate them.

After all we didnt make a whole pile of changes for all those eastern europeans who are doing a fantastic job here !! No parades or nothing. Fair play to them.

A Dub in Glasgo

The parade/demonstration/commemoration/antagonistic ritual is planned for the last weekend in January - Same weekend as the Bloody Sunday Massacre commemoration

Flex

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

The parade/demonstration/commemoration/antagonistic ritual is planned for the last weekend in January - Same weekend as the Bloody Sunday Massacre commemoration

Oh well that must just be a huge coincidence :rolleyes:

fly_agaric

Sand wrote:

Oh yeah, its guaranteed the usual suspects will descend looking for a scrap, deadly buzz man!!! Skangers and pseudo patriotism are a volatile combination.

I dunno. I keep reading this doom-and-gloom stuff here about how the "skangers" are going to go to war on this loveulster rally if it goes ahead in Dublin.

I have to say, it smells like alot of bullshít IMO - especially when you consider the garda cordon I'm sure will be mustered to protect the "pehpol" from any counter-protestors when they have their parade.

On the thread in "After Hours", the only evidence given for this view seems to be that there are lots of SF organisers and voters in the poorer parts of Dublin - all spoiling for a fight with some prods apparently - something which would be sure to be a great boost for SF in the next general election! (NOT).

If it goes ahead, I really belive most people will ignore it and it will be in the interests of SF to try and ensure that any of their supporters don't get too carried away if they are allowed stage a counter-protest. Of course, perhaps some of the "pehpol" coming down for the day may feel it would be good to start some trouble...

This hysteria reminds me a bit of all that nonsense about the dreadful mayhem that would be unleashed by all those crusty anti-capitalists when the EU leaders came to Dublin last May. Big security op, damp-squib "protest" (in terms of violence).

BuffyBot

I have to say, it smells like alot of bullshít IMO

I wouldn't count on it..apparently some of the bright minds over on Stormfront Ireland are making plans..

allin-king

Sand wrote:

Denial. Check.

Are you saying there is an orginization called SFIRA??

West Brit allegation. Check.

Then why repeat phrases coined by Ian Paisley??

Declaration of persecution. Check.

please read Diorraing's post to understand my point

Yep, typical by-the-numbers provo post. Next.

Oh and Provisonal IRA member allegation. check

And just to be clear; i am pacifist and do not support violence of any kind but i am also patriotic to my country and would like to see a United Ireland (tell me what is wrong this Sand)

fly_agaric

BuffyBot wrote:

I wouldn't count on it..apparently some of the bright minds over on Stormfront Ireland are making plans..

Never heard of em so I did a search.
Found this:
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=41

Seems pretty pathetic IMO.
Somehow I think they may find themselves a little bit outnumbered by the police on the day.

Maskhadov

I never thought i would see the day where there would be a discussion forum for white irish supremacists

lynchiered

I have no problem with Unionist marching in Dublin, but i do have a problem with the orange order marching on the streets of Dublin. The Orange Order are a group of anti Catholic's who have Inflicted pain and suffering on the Catholic population of the North. They Have Openly Marched with UVF,UFF,UDA banners in the North. There leading members Have been involved in Loyalist paramilitaries groups ie. Ian Paisley founding member of
" Ulster Resistance " we can all remember them cant we?? Marching into Catholic masked and hurling petrol bombs!!!! For over 30 years now the southern government have sat on there b-hind's and watched the ethnic cleansing of Catholic's in the north. I'm asking the Southern goverment to Say NO to the orange order.

Slan

Sand

Oh and Provisonal IRA member allegation. check

Hey, you thought you were the business with the west brit ****e, Im sure you can take it as well as dish it out. Or can you?

And just to be clear; i am pacifist and do not support violence of any kind but i am also patriotic to my country and would like to see a United Ireland (tell me what is wrong this Sand)

Interesting that - why do you feel the need to point out youre a pacifist? Labour voters dont need to stress theyre pacifists. Fianna Fail dont have to. Fine Gael dont have to. You feel you have to. Odd that.

As for whats wrong with a United Ireland? You and your co-voters would have to choke down your bile as the Orange Order marched through Dublin *every* year, as the UVF and UDA were commemorated as working class heros, as Ulster Scots competed with Gaelic for funding, and as instutions like Dail Eireann and the Gardai were renamed to be less culturally biased, or as the Orange Order demanded representation in both the Senate and government funding for their cultural activities. Hell, you might even have to put a United Ireland back into the British Commonwealth to keep the Unionists happy. But Im sure, youve never actually seriously considered what sort of deal would need to be swung to stop Ulster Unionists rebelling if they were forced into some sort of United Ireland as dreamed of by Pearse and his compatriots.

Imagine that, the OO in Dublin every year, carrying British flags - most provo fanboys on here can barely stomach the idea of a Love Ulster parade, let alone the OO being in the same country as them.

For over 30 years now the southern government have sat on there b-hind's and watched the ethnic cleansing of Catholic's in the north. I'm asking the Southern goverment to Say NO to the orange order.

What "Southern" government are you referring to? Might it be the Republic of Ireland youre asking to take action? First step might be to get the name right.

A Dub in Glasgo

Sand wrote:

Labour voters dont need to stress theyre pacifists. Fianna Fail dont have to. Fine Gael dont have to. You feel you have to. Odd that.

Most likey reason is they are not pacifists

Sand

Most likey reason is they are not pacifists

Most likely their voters take it for granted that Bertie Ahern's - for example - electoral workers wont be unmasked as a gang of terrorists, whereas you cant really be so confident with SFIRA when you consider their stated position that its not a crime for them to murder people.

FreaK_BrutheR

Bedtime for democracy?

Merely putting down someone elses point of view is in my opinion neither an arguement nor constructive. Pointing out how they are wrong and offering a viable solution is.

Everyone seems so willing to take up the loyalist side of this... i wonder why? Nationalist views are equally as valid. It is not a dirty word....be proud of your country for chrissake.

the reason people feel the need to point out that they are pacifist, by the way, is so muppets who can't differenciate between nationalism and terrorism can try and behave rationally toward them in their follow up posts.

===Edit===
I dont feel constantly calling Sinn Fein, Sinn Fein IRA is the most constructive thing in the world either. We have to deal with these people if we are ever to find a solution. We don't call it PUPUVF oir the like. That is a DUP based renaming that some Irish people seem to have adopted.... and you get insulted when you are called west brits? Whether you like it or not the DUP will not accept you as a papist Irishman into their fold.

I do not have the solutions I am merely expressing my opinion and views on how things can possubly move forward. Be forward thinking.

Benedict XVI

Sand wrote:

As for whats wrong with a United Ireland? You and your co-voters would have to choke down your bile as the Orange Order marched through Dublin *every* year, as the UVF and UDA were commemorated as working class heros, as Ulster Scots competed with Gaelic for funding, and as instutions like Dail Eireann and the Gardai were renamed to be less culturally biased, or as the Orange Order demanded representation in both the Senate and government funding for their cultural activities. Hell, you might even have to put a United Ireland back into the British Commonwealth to keep the Unionists happy. But Im sure, youve never actually seriously considered what sort of deal would need to be swung to stop Ulster Unionists rebelling if they were forced into some sort of United Ireland as dreamed of by Pearse and his compatriots.

Great post Sand, I have to agree 100%.

Sand

Merely putting down someone elses point of view is in my opinion neither an arguement nor constructive. Pointing out how they are wrong and offering a viable solution is.

Doesnt work with Provos tbh. The sort of criticism and logical reasoning youre demanding there has been tried many times, but foundered on the rocks of dogma, mantras, denial, west brit allegations, evil securocrats and "800 years of theft, rape and murder!!!"

SFIRA recently punished a member for saying publically that Hains plan for sectarian councils was wrong. Thats all. Venturing a personal view as opposed to the Hive minds press release. West brit traitor eh?

A guy who wrote a book about his experiences in the IRA was the victim of a hit-and-run (and reverse-back-over-and-hit-again, and reverse-back-over-and-hit-again......).

So there isnt exactly fertile grounds in Provo theology for criticism to be taken well. Ive been informed that even men like Fr Reid, patron saint of car bombers and Nazi allegations, cant criticise Provos and get away with it. We havent seen a movment so open to a reasoned exchange of views since the Spanish Inquisition.

Everyone seems so willing to take up the loyalist side of this... i wonder why? Nationalist views are equally as valid. It is not a dirty word....be proud of your country for chrissake.

See, thats exactly why I dont want a United Ireland. Because that sort of poisonous tribalism of "either you support us, or you support the loyalists" has erradicated any serious debate or politics in northern Ireland and I dont want those political troglodytes fecking up my country with their sectarian crap. No one here has taken up a loyalist position. No one. Some people have chosen to take up a non SFIRA position, so by default provos come out with the west brit and loyalist allegations because they simply arent able to defend their views in any other way.

Even if I do not want a United Ireland, that does not imply I give a damn whether NI remains in the UK or not. I could care less. Its a different country and nothing to do with me. I just dont want them ruining our democracy in the Republic.

And as for nationalism - nothing wrong with it as such, people are tribal at the end of the day. But when you align it with an organisation like SFIRA, and justify their actions through it, then it does become wrong.

the reason people feel the need to point out that they are pacifist, by the way, is so muppets who can't differenciate between nationalism and terrorism can try and behave rationally toward them in their follow up posts.

The reason SFIRA voters have to stress their pacifism is because their party champions and celebrates terrorists and their attacks. I think SFIRA voters have the hardest time differentiating between terrorism and nationalism. In Irish terms, *supposed* nationalists seem to think theyre the same thing.

I dont feel constantly calling Sinn Fein, Sinn Fein IRA is the most constructive thing in the world either.

The appeasement proccess was built on constructive ambiguity, and all its troubles have sprung from wordplay ever since. Hence, I call a spade a spade. Maybe if I was a diplomat or negotiator and paid enough to engage in the fantasy world of Adams and McGuinness I might go along with the pretence, but Im working pro bono here. I dont expect Provos to agree publically, denial is a trait of the theology afterall.

Whether you like it or not the DUP will not accept you as a papist Irishman into their fold.

Another West Brit allegation, how surprising. Didnt see that coming.

I do not have the solutions I am merely expressing my opinion and views on how things can possubly move forward. Be forward thinking.

I have a radical idea on how to move things forward. Forget all about the LoveUlster march. Put it far from your mind. Listen to soothing chill out music on the day. Banging on about the Orange Order, and "800 years of theft, rape, and murder" like you did on your initial contribution bemoaning a lack of nationalist ire on the board is not going to move things forward and it is not forward thinking.

A Dub in Glasgo

Sand wrote:

Most likely their voters take it for granted that Bertie Ahern's - for example - electoral workers wont be unmasked as a gang of terrorists, whereas you cant really be so confident with SFIRA when you consider their stated position that its not a crime for them to murder people.

Quite possibly but that does not make all those parties and voters pacifists. Are you sure you do not want to drag the thread into the realms of the baby eating residents of Ardoyne scenerio?

Kilsally

gurramok wrote:

This is not just a one-sided 'victims' march, it includes the sectarian Orange Order who ban non-protestant membership.

I`m sorry but that is the daftest argument I have ever heard.
Are Protestants allowed to take communion in a Roman Catholic Church? No Can Protestants join the AOH or Opus Dei? No It is a Protestant fraternity for the promotion of Protestantism. I you want an almost Universal fraternity then look to the Masons or better still The Rotary Club or The Lions.

Kilsally

FreaK_BrutheR wrote:

The Orange Order is based around William of Orange's Victory over the Catholic James 2. It is a glorification in the face of Catholics that they were defeated by a Protestant Dutch Man. It is a sectarian movement and obviously attracts an element of Unionist hard liners because of the taunting effect it has

That is not very accurate at all. The Orange Order is a Protestant fraternity. Its annual 12th demonstrations commermorate the Battle of the Boyne, the victory by William Prince of Orange (a Protestant) over his father in law, exiled English King James(a Catholic) who had been plotting to retake the English throne with the help of Scottish Jacobites and French forces and restore the English throne to the Papacy (Look up Gunpowder Plot, Queen Elizabeth, the Babington plot ect for various Jesuit instigated plots to over throw the newly Protestant throne nder the guie of the sepereated from Rome, Church of England)

The victory saw William and his Wife share the throne jointly and ushered in what is known as the Glorious Revolution which not only gave civil and religious liberties to all (although test acts and penal laws were later made law) but it also curbed the divine right of Kings and gave power alot of powers to Parliament.

That is commemorated on only 1 day in the year. The OO run degree systems wihin their lodges, superficially similar to Masonic degrees which are basically plays acted out in front of candidates, which are based on bible passages. Each lodge holds an annual church parade to their local church (sometimes on a rotational basis to various denominations). Orange Halls host numerous organisations such as the Ulster Credit Unions, Ulster-Scots groups, Historical groups, political parties, Gospel missions, Line dancing, Band and music tuition. Indeed during the foot and mouth crisis a few years back my local Orange Hall was used as a base by the government to run the decontamination programmes, the local Orangemen covered up the picture of the Queen to provide a neutral environment for the government workers so as not to offend anyone.

Its not perfect and there are for sure some hot heads and extremists but there are alos progressives and moderates and significant changes and moves towards cultural and charitable aspects such as Ulster-Scots, re-enactment groups etc. Again the local lodge ran an Ulster-Scots group which included the local Highland Dancing group which was a mixed cross-community group.

Nationalists have a choice. The Orange Order is not going to go away so people can oppose it outright and give power to more extreme elements with the Order and the Loyalist community or they can choose to condemn the atrocious behaviour of some whilst supporting the moderates and by doing so bring about change and a more mutually respecting and tolerant society. A new Ireland based on equality and diversity. Perhaps not a United Ireland in the usual sense but an United island of Ireland at ease with its sense of diversity whilst increasing having an island wide economy whilst maintaining the distinct political and cultural diversity of the island.

Flex

Kilsally wrote:

I`m sorry but that is the daftest argument I have ever heard.
Are Protestants allowed to take communion in a Roman Catholic Church? No Can Protestants join the AOH or Opus Dei? No It is a Protestant fraternity for the promotion of Protestantism. I you want an almost Universal fraternity then look to the Masons or better still The Rotary Club or The Lions.

Do they AOH still exist in Ireland anymore? Iv heard theres some in New York, but I wasnt sure about Ireland. Must have very few members.

If the orange order promote Protestantism, why dont they promote the Protestant Republicans of 1798 like Wolfe Tone, or Protestants who led the Home Rule movement, like Parnell, or Isaac Butt? And if they really march to 'celebrate' the victory of William of Orange at the Boyne, why dont they ever mention the contribution of the Pope to William of Orange's campaign? Just curious

Kilsally

FreaK_BrutheR wrote:

The Orange Order is based around William of Orange's Victory over the Catholic James 2. It is a glorification in the face of Catholics that they were defeated by a Protestant Dutch Man. It is a sectarian movement and obviously attracts an element of Unionist hard liners because of the taunting effect it has

That is not very accurate at all. The Orange Order is a Protestant fraternity. Its annual 12th demonstrations commermorate the Battle of the Boyne, the victory by William Prince of Orange (a Protestant) over his father in law, exiled English King James(a Catholic) who had been plotting to retake the English throne with the help of Scottish Jacobites and French forces and restore the English throne to the Papacy (Look up Gunpowder Plot, Queen Elizabeth, the Babington plot ect for various Jesuit instigated plots to over throw the newly Protestant throne nder the guie of the sepereated from Rome, Church of England)

The victory saw William and his Wife share the throne jointly and ushered in what is known as the Glorious Revolution which not only gave civil and religious liberties to all (although test acts and penal laws were later made law) but it also curbed the divine right of Kings and gave power alot of powers to Parliament.

That is commemorated on only 1 day in the year. The OO run degree systems wihin their lodges, superficially similar to Masonic degrees which are basically plays acted out in front of candidates, which are based on bible passages. Each lodge holds an annual church parade to their local church (sometimes on a rotational basis to various denominations). Orange Halls host numerous organisations such as the Ulster Credit Unions, Ulster-Scots groups, Historical groups, political parties, Gospel missions, Line dancing, Band and music tuition. Indeed during the foot and mouth crisis a few years back my local Orange Hall was used as a base by the government to run the decontamination programmes, the local Orangemen covered up the picture of the Queen to provide a neutral environment for the government workers so as not to offend anyone.

Its not perfect and there are for sure some hot heads and extremists but there are alos progressives and moderates and significant changes and moves towards cultural and charitable aspects such as Ulster-Scots, re-enactment groups etc. Again the local lodge ran an Ulster-Scots group which included the local Highland Dancing group which was a mixed cross-community group.

Nationalists have a choice. The Orange Order is not going to go away so people can oppose it outright and give power to more extreme elements with the Order and the Loyalist community or they can choose to condemn the atrocious behaviour of some whilst supporting the moderates and by doing so bring about change and a more mutually respecting and tolerant society. A new Ireland based on equality and diversity. Perhaps not a United Ireland in the usual sense but an United island of Ireland at ease with its sense of diversity whilst increasing having an island wide economy whilst maintaining the distinct political and cultural diversity of the island.