A lad killed on the quay...

merlante

Freddie59 wrote:

Very fair and accurate points.:) I know I'm going slightly off-topic, but on last nights's Late Late Show they were debating drink-driving, and Derek Davies (the RTE presenter) actually got it spot on. He said that the problem in Ireland at the minute is that drinking (or alcohol abuse) is cherished in this country.....from the top down. And he's dead right - as are you. It's the 'I can drink so many pints' mentality that has us where we are. But we have to start somewhere, and a restriction of alcohol sales on campus seems as good a place as any to start.;) Still no news AFAIK. Spare a prayer for both him and the lorry driver over Christmas.:(

Hmm... they weren't fair and accurate points when I made them.

He says: "...it's not just students, its young people in general, its there attitude towards drink, that's what needs to changed, not the closing of the Dome during the day or the banning of Christmas day..."

This is exactly the point I have been making. It's our drinking patterns and our attitudes to drink that have to change, not closing bars or restricting the supply of drink. Young people will go mad if they are going to go mad, and trying to restrict their access to drink or whatever is futile. And as was said, it ain't just students that are getting drunk and disorderly.

Freddie59

merlante wrote:

Hmm... they weren't fair and accurate points when I made them.

He says: "...it's not just students, its young people in general, its there attitude towards drink, that's what needs to changed, not the closing of the Dome during the day or the banning of Christmas day..."

This is exactly the point I have been making. It's our drinking patterns and our attitudes to drink that have to change, not closing bars or restricting the supply of drink. Young people will go mad if they are going to go mad, and trying to restrict their access to drink or whatever is futile. And as was said, it ain't just students that are getting drunk and disorderly.

Can you please clarify what you meant by the 'rabble' remark? Was this aimed at the sector of the population who may not have had the privilege of a Third Level education.......and are you classing them as 'rabble' because of this? Who exactly are the 'rabble' that you are writing about?

(from your earlier response: "From what I've read on here, it's just as well the rabble aren't on charge of colleges/universities, or all social activities would be banned and they'd all become large, glorified secondary schools.")

Freddie59

merlante wrote:

This is exactly the point I have been making. It's our drinking patterns and our attitudes to drink that have to change, not closing bars or restricting the supply of drink. Young people will go mad if they are going to go mad, and trying to restrict their access to drink or whatever is futile. And as was said, it ain't just students that are getting drunk and disorderly.

Agreed......but the rest of the populace can't dodge work to go to the factory pub in order to get sloshed from 11:00am onwards. The majority of posters here have agreed that something has to be done to curtial it. And let's face it - a certain sector of third level students do little to qualify your defence of this behaviour.;)

Rollo Tamasi

the college have a obligation with regards the education of their students, a moral obligation if you will, this is certainly not aided by having an on campus watering hole. Its nuts that they have a pub and not a creche (but would they make as much money from a creche...........).

Freddie59

Rollo Tamasi wrote:

the college have a obligation with regards the education of their students, a moral obligation if you will, this is certainly not aided by having an on campus watering hole. Its nuts that they have a pub and not a creche (but would they make as much money from a creche...........).

Agreed Rollo. I again state that I am not anti-student but the idea of on-campus pubs is, IMO, ridiculous and a disaster waiting to happen.:mad:

merlante

Fair enough, but anyone who has been a student in any college or university in Ireland could not imagine a college experience without the college bar. It is a place, along with the canteen, that people gather in between classes -- not necessarily to drink. It is a place where students can socialise with other students, as opposed to general pubs. It's a place on campus, where students can go drinking with a little bit more safety and security, particularly if they are not from the town/city, than a typical city centre pub. It's becomes the focus of many organised activities: bands, quizzes, etc.

In short, it is one of the things that makes the college campus a place for socialising rather than merely a place of education. Socialising has been a part of the college experience for as long as there have been colleges. Not just in Ireland. If you think that colleges shouldn't have bars or shouldn't cultivate a social atmosphere, etc., then you are the rabble I was talking about that is trying to ruin colleges and universities when you know in your heart of hearts that no lives will be saved and no extra degrees will be earned.

Why push students off the campus and in to city centre pubs, off licences, etc.?

18 year olds are allowed to drink. Since we agree that it's not just students that can behave badly, but all young people, why are we complaining about student bars -- why not complain about the minimum drinking age instead?

Freddie59

merlante wrote:

If you think that colleges shouldn't have bars or shouldn't cultivate a social atmosphere, etc., then you are the rabble I was talking about that is trying to ruin colleges and universities when you know in your heart of hearts that no lives will be saved and no extra degrees will be earned.

Ah finally. Your true feelings towards your fellow countrymen/women who do not happen to agree with you are revealed. I think the last ones to deploy that term were the colonial English. And you are a product, I presume, of the aforementioned educational system which is littered with watering holes? I, like others posting on this thread, are concerned about health and safety issues, along with the main reason for attending college - to be educated.

Instead you advocate what borders on childishness - drinking when you should be receiving an education; ignoring the threat to health and safety and the general well-being of students, and finally classing those who disagree with you as rabble.

You appear to be a snob of sorts and slightly confused. Classing people who choose to act in a responsible manner as rabble? - maybe next time there's a discussion you could refrain from insulting people and stick to debating the issue at hand.

Maharet

I can't believe ye think closing the pub on campus would make any difference to the amount of students getting so drunk as to end up like the poor lad that started this whole thread. When I was in college, many people would be in the bar for lunch, to play pool, to catch up with friends from other courses while they had a few hours in between lectures or were finished for the day. I never saw anyone in the student bar during the day to be anything more than slightly tipsy at most.

The student bars in a college/university/IT are there as an outlet for students. Many societies organise events in the bars. If anything the bars encourage more sensible drinking as you're just there for one drink during the day and sometimes not even drinkin alcohol at all. Your friends will act as a regulator too, because if they aren't staying in there for more than one, then you won't either. This would be the majority of people in there. The kind of idiotic drinking you are all talking about will happen regardless of whether student bar is open all day or not. Students looking to get that drunk will just go to the local off license buy a cheap crate of beer and end up more pissed than they would have been if they'd stayed in the bar all night. Also, although students are richer than they used to be they still have no where near the amount of money needed to stay drinking in the bar all day and night.

Also as was pointed out by others, the choice is theirs. They are adults, the chose to go to college, if they choose to drink all day in a student bar that's also their choice. The vast, vast majority of students have neither the money nor the inclination to be that much of a piss artist all the time. And as I said they choose to go there to attain a particular degree, there are very few that would throw away that chance by being constantly on the beer to the point where they may fail exams. College is some of the most memorable and fun years of your life, students should be given the freedom to learn, not just their course but about life in general, there is plenty of time for them to be tied to the monotony of the 9-5 working day. The student bar is a part of this, along with their friends, the college societies and clubs, college events, opportunities to travel. All these things are what make college great, take away the bar and you take away the natural hub of the college campus.

Rollo Tamasi

Maharet wrote:

take away the bar and you take away the natural hub of the college campus.

i don't think the college bar is the the hub of any educational building, but you have valid points as does everyone. I still feel that the college is best servered by a Dome which would only sell drink after 6pm. The college has 4 canteens and a pool room so it's not like it's deprived of recreational facilities. The choice is the student's at the end of the day and if they wan't to drink during the day then let them, i never have had a pint while in college during hours and never will. I don't think its the time or place for it.

Maharet

That's fair enough if you don't want to do that yourself. Plenty do though.

I also meant the social hub, as opposed to the hub of the educational end of things. I know myself from those (glory) days that the ability to go into the pub for a drink during the day was nice, especially since a lot of courses have a half day during the week, on different days, this isn't WIT I'm talking about, I didn't go there. But of course you can't really close one student bar without closing them all.

Also, even though I think it should be kept open all day like a normal pub, opening at six is a bit late as a lot of courses finish at four, from my experience and since it can vary from day to day and course to course it would be better just to leave it open all day make people make up their own minds to go in there or not.

Just thinking of another thing a couple of people mentioned, the education about drink. Students know well enough the danger of drink, but when they see their parents and families getting just as pissed as they do, it's a bit hypocritical...everyone needs to change their drinking habits, before students and in a wider way all younger people will have any respect for the "education" they're extoling. It's a bit much having older people going on about how bad drink is and drink in moderation when most of them are just as bad when they head out themselves of a Friday and Saturday night!

merlante

Freddie59 wrote:

Ah finally. Your true feelings towards your fellow countrymen/women who do not happen to agree with you are revealed. I think the last ones to deploy that term were the colonial English. And you are a product, I presume, of the aforementioned educational system which is littered with watering holes? I, like others posting on this thread, are concerned about health and safety issues, along with the main reason for attending college - to be educated.

Instead you advocate what borders on childishness - drinking when you should be receiving an education; ignoring the threat to health and safety and the general well-being of students, and finally classing those who disagree with you as rabble.

You appear to be a snob of sorts and slightly confused. Classing people who choose to act in a responsible manner as rabble? - maybe next time there's a discussion you could refrain from insulting people and stick to debating the issue at hand.

I indulged you by bringing back up the word 'rabble' in order to give you the chance to get your big indignant post out of the way.

You obviously have some issue with class or student jealousy, or whatever, I don't care. You are too quick to go off topic when you see one single word you don't like and are too quick to ignore valid points, to the extent that when other people make exactly the same points as I was making, you agree with them wholeheartedly.

The reason why I used the word 'rabble', and I wasn't being entirely serious in using that term, (as should be obvious) is that I don't think that people who have never gone to college should be making decisions about how college campuses are run. They don't know why things are the way they are. They may not understand the social and educational dynamic of college campuses.

As I said before, the vast majority of people who have been in college, throughout the British isles and beyond would NOT be in favour of removing the college bar, for all the reasons that myself and Maharet have outlined, and many more besides. College campuses have been the way they are for a long, long time, and I would not appreciate armchair activists seeing that a young lad has fallen under a lorry and then somehow using that as a justification for closing college bars. You haven't considered all the arguments, as is becoming more and more obvious with each post you make.

Now if you can restrain yourself from being offended by any other words I've used, can we keep this on topic?

Mossy Monk

Maharet wrote:

If anything the bars encourage more sensible drinking

after you said this i decided not to take anything you said seriously

angry_fox

Waterford News & Star wrote:

A 20-year-old student, originally from Meath, remains in a stable condition in Cork University Hospital and is believed to have had a leg amputated as a result of injuries he sustained during the incident at 2.30am on Thursday.

He had been out with friends on the college’s ‘Christmas Day’ and was on John Street when a cattle lorry passed through the junction in the direction of The Mall.

The student jumped onto the draw-bar separating the cab of the lorry from the trailer and travelled on the vehicle as far as the Mall where he either slipped or tried to jump off.

He fell beneath the trailer as it was moving and was dragged for a distance, incurring serious back and leg injuries in the process. He was brought to Waterford Regional before being later transferred to Cork

Heres the rest of the story

Christmas Day is looking bad for next year, remember a girl was raped on the quay last year and four were arrested this year.

c - 13

angry_fox wrote:

Heres the rest of the story

Christmas Day is looking bad for next year, remember a girl was raped on the quay last year and four were arrested this year.

At least the arrests were down on last year, wasnt it some ridiculous number of arrests last year around 70 or something ?

Rollo Tamasi

merlante wrote:

I don't think that people who have never gone to college should be making decisions about how college campuses are run. They don't know why things are the way they are. They may not understand the social and educational dynamic of college campuses.

that's probably the most ridiclious thing i've heard since Bill Cosby gave an anti drugs lecture to childern. So merlante....if you don't understand something....then don't question it? Is that what your driving at? What are you? A fascist or something?

merlante

Rollo Tamasi wrote:

that's probably the most ridiclious thing i've heard since Bill Cosby gave an anti drugs lecture to childern. So merlante....if you don't understand something....then don't question it? Is that what your driving at? What are you? A fascist or something?

You're right, I must be a fascist, that is the only logical explanation. What am I but a fascist for thinking that people who haven't been to college don't know a damn thing about how college campuses are run!

By all means question it, learn about it, investigate the role that a college bar plays on a college campus; think the whole thing through. But don't just sit there and make pronouncements from your armchair about what should and should not be on college campuses without any knowledge of what you are talking about.

None of the good points in favour of the college bar have been addressed. Instead people are more concerned with labelling people fascists, or confused or irresponsible or whatever. Nobody has given any evidence or rationale to show there are more deaths, injuries, incidents of alcoholism, violence, etc. involving students with bars on college campuses than if there weren't.

All I am hearing is opinion pieces from those who were never students, like "companies don't have bars so why should colleges" and "students are there to be educated not to drink". If you were ex-students, you wouldn't be calling for an end to student bars, during the day or otherwise, because you would realise what a valuable social function the campus bar serves.

How many ex-students are speaking out against college bars? I doubt you'll many. Give me a single piece of evidence to say that the Dome contributes to a lower number of degrees or a higher level of student drinking. (given that students will be drinking somewhere anyway)

Are any of you actually blaming the Dome for this guys death, btw?

Rollo Tamasi

You're right, I must be a fascist,

Ok, glad that's sorted.

But don't just sit there and make pronouncements from your armchair about what should and should not be on college campuses without any knowledge of what you are talking about.

But i do have a knowledge of what i'm talking about...i'm a student studying at WIT who is regularly in the Dome....are you? Maybe your a bit out of touch with reality yourself? Long is the day when students had meangiful debates during college hours while drinking congac...actually wait....did that ever happen...probably not.

If you were ex-students, you wouldn't be calling for an end to student bars, during the day or otherwise, because you would realise what a valuable social function the campus bar serves.

You'd swear this was 1920's Germany with students uprising against the Weimar Republic or something?

Are any of you actually blaming the Dome for this guys death, btw?

Nope, we don't even know if he was drinking there anyway. But it's blatantly clear that they just care about the cash registers and not the moral obligiation of catering for a thousand or so students.

Maharet

Mossy Monk wrote:

after you said this i decided not to take anything you said seriously

I like the way you didn't quote the rest of what I said to qualify this. As I said if you are in the bar with your mates for a pint during the day you're not going to stay there drinking all day as the majority of them won't want to. That's my experience anyway, you go in for one or two pints, relax for a bit then head off to do work. That's how it was when I was in college anyway.

angry_fox

Just read the latest edition of the news & star. Looks like the lad is going to keep his leg.

c - 13

angry_fox wrote:

Just read the latest edition of the news & star. Looks like the lad is going to keep his leg.

Is it mean to think they should chop it off anyway so he doesnt do something stupid like that again ?

Rollo Tamasi

Maharet wrote:

That's my experience anyway, you go in for one or two pints, relax for a bit then head off to do work. That's how it was when I was in college anyway.[/color]

i often have about 3 or 4 pints and then work on my projects. I'm flying thru this year, i went on the piss for 4 days solid and have all my revision done and everything for my final exams. That grant comes in handy.

Cabaal

Maharet wrote:

I like the way you didn't quote the rest of what I said to qualify this. As I said if you are in the bar with your mates for a pint during the day you're not going to stay there drinking all day as the majority of them won't want to. That's my experience anyway, you go in for one or two pints, relax for a bit then head off to do work. That's how it was when I was in college anyway.

According to your website your a abit of a party animal, hardly a discription for somebody that goes out for one or two pints.

merlante

Rollo Tamasi wrote:

But i do have a knowledge of what i'm talking about...i'm a student studying at WIT who is regularly in the Dome....are you? Maybe your a bit out of touch with reality yourself? Long is the day when students had meangiful debates during college hours while drinking congac...actually wait....did that ever happen...probably not.

...

Nope, we don't even know if he was drinking there anyway. But it's blatantly clear that they just care about the cash registers and not the moral obligiation of catering for a thousand or so students.

Well if you're a student out there fair enough. It was the people who don't know anything about college bars that I was complaining about. I'll be more likely to address your other "comments" when I get a full reply to one of my posts: fat chance on here I reckon. (far more likely to get several posts addressing a short phrase taken out of context)

I thought the whole point that people were making was, "these college bars are turning students in to alcoholics that throw themselves under trucks"? Otherwise, why are we talking about college bars?

As you quite rightly suggest, college bars concentrate on making money. However, they are only allowed to exist in the first place because the college authorities think they are a good thing, at least overall.

Rollo Tamasi

I thought the whole point that people were making was, "these college bars are turning students in to alcoholics that throw themselves under trucks"? Otherwise, why are we talking about college bars?

there not as much turning them into alcoholics but i personally feel that there is a time and place for drinking beer, never mind socializing..that's different, pub's shouldn't be coupled with education. If the college want's to provide different services to students then get in a creche or improve the parking facalities. The college only ever really seemed interested in the money turners such as Canteens / Pubs / Accomadation.

As you quite rightly suggest, college bars concentrate on making money. However, they are only allowed to exist in the first place because the college authorities think they are a good thing, at least overall.

I think it was last year or the year before that the college actually showed a bit of resolve and shut down the Dome for a week due to alcohol related issues. Maybe it was Rag Week....i'm not too sure.

Rollo Tamasi

merlante wrote:

I'll be more likely to address your other "comments" when I get a full reply to one of my posts: fat chance on here I reckon.

i presume your addressing this...

Give me a single piece of evidence to say that the Dome contributes to a lower number of degrees or a higher level of student drinking.

to which i reply....
Ah Come on...for heavens sake man! :v:

angry_fox

Rollo Tamasi wrote:

I think it was last year or the year before that the college actually showed a bit of resolve and shut down the Dome for a week due to alcohol related issues. Maybe it was Rag Week....i'm not too sure.

Twas rag week, students union went nuts. They had sit down protests and were on the local radio givin out, but as always they didnt really achieve much.........

Hope everybody understands how lucky the lad didint lose his leg. He doesint deserve to be that lucky, hope he learns from his mistake but i doubt it. Well done to all the medical staff in cork for given the chap his life back.

Mossy Monk

little bastards like him deserve locking up, not sympathy

i hope the driver is ok

Cabaal

Mossy Monk wrote:

little bastards like him deserve locking up, not sympathy

i hope the driver is ok

Sounds evil, but in fairness people that stupid deserve to be removed from the gene pool

Maharet

Cabaal wrote:

According to your website your a abit of a party animal, hardly a discription for somebody that goes out for one or two pints.

That was a piss take written by a friend of mine a few years ago. I never said I only went out for one or two pints when I went out at night, who does?!? I said I didn't drink more than one during the day and that was only very rarely too.

Freddie59

Mossy Monk wrote:

little bastards like him deserve locking up, not sympathy

i hope the driver is ok

Well said Mossy. I've already mentioned that - but you're the first one to actually consider that poor man.:(