McDowell Controversy

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote:

Even if he was in Colombia on a false passport, how does that possibly make him a threat to the state? That he might have raised funds which could have been used to fund Sinn Fein? If that is true then it would follow that Sinn Fein are a threat to the state? When can we expect McDowell to outlaw republicanism?

Well in fairness,No party should have access to illegal funds.
McDowell is making that case yes,whether you or I believe him or not.
Thats his justification take it or leave it, it would seem.
It would appear also to be preventative in that he views this CPQ as being a possibly strategically targeted outfit.
Does anyone know how transparent it is ?
I mean privatising public inquiries would seem like a dangerous trend regardless of who is involved...

McDowell is probably privately rue-ing the way he made the case though given that, the windshield wipers are having difficulty coping with the muck spray so the public cant see his point as well as he had hoped.

Did you find that chuck feeney stuff yet ? you know where you said he and McDowell were chatting?

Sponge Bob

Sponge Bob wrote:

Do you have anything of interest , however minor, to tell any of us Hobart or do you plan to yap from a distance at me all day ?????

Please be civil.
Theres a fine line between humour and insult - dont cross it!

Tuars

Earthman wrote:

Well in fairness, No party should have access to illegal funds.

There are laws in place to deal with that. The minister's actions in relation to Frank Connolly and the CPI do nothing to address the issue of illegal funds. If there is an issue of illegal funding then he should focus his energy on that.

Earthman wrote:

I mean privatising public inquiries would seem like a dangerous trend regardless of who is involved...

I don't think the CPI was set up as a replacement for public inquiries. It is not a public body and its reports carry no weight in law. It's closer to investigative journalism albeit with more funds at its disposable than the average investigative journalist. I would regard it as being similiar to a lobby group such as IBEC.

It does however highlight the lack of independent oversight in the public sphere at present. If the state was doing it's job properly in this regard then maybe there wouldn't be a need for organisations such as the CPI.

the1andonly1

Did you find that chuck feeney stuff yet ? you know where you said he and McDowell were chatting?

In the interview McDowell gave to the news at one, he said he had discussed the matter with Chuck Feeney. (link at bottom of the page http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1212/connollyf.html)

swiss

The more I think about this, the more I side with the Minister of Justice.

I still have my reservations about the manner in which he released this information under Dáil privilege, and how he disseminated it to a select organ of print media. From all the responses and reports I find it difficult to determine whether the source of the information he gave to either the Sunday Independent or Chuck Feeny (or his representative) was a confidential Garda report or a bogus passport application form bearing Frank Connollys picture, or possibly both. Is such an application form public domain in any case? I should imagine not, given that it contains personal information.

However, the Minister has made a strong case arguing that this information should be in the public domain, and I agree. Frank Connolly is not just a private citizen. He runs a highly controversial centre of public enquiry. I think that if you set a standard you should meet it, and his standard was accountability of public figures, a standard he himself has failed to meet. Furthermore, the political dimension, as well as percieved SF/IRA links through Frank Connolly of the CPI made that centre, to my mind, indeed a vessel that could potentially contribute to an attempt to subvert the state. I know that many people won't agree with me, but I believe this was the motivation of McDowell in releasing this information. If this was indeed the case, then McDowell had not only a remit, but a duty to release this information.

However, as I've stated before, I think the manner in which he released it was suspect at best. It does raise questions about his motivations and his links with sections of the media. Perhaps what would be more appropriate would be an agreed policy for disseminating this kind of information, the circumstances in which it is warranted as well as an appropriate organ - perhaps through a Dáil press corps or through state media.

Tuars

Tuars wrote:

There are laws in place to deal with that. The minister's actions in relation to Frank Connolly and the CPI do nothing to address the issue of illegal funds. If there is an issue of illegal funding then he should focus his energy on that.

He clearly believes he has.

I don't think the CPI was set up as a replacement for public inquiries. It is not a public body and its reports carry no weight in law. It's closer to investigative journalism albeit with more funds at its disposable than the average investigative journalist. I would regard it as being similiar to a lobby group such as IBEC.

It seems to me to have one purpose and thats inquiry.Thats entirely different to IBEC.

It does however highlight the lack of independent oversight in the public sphere at present. If the state was doing it's job properly in this regard then maybe there wouldn't be a need for organisations such as the CPI.

With respect there are plenty of Dáil committees charged with investigating lots of things and they are democratically accountable.They can have no untransparent agenda

the1andonly1 wrote:

In the interview McDowell gave to the news at one, he said he had discussed the matter with Chuck Feeney. (link at bottom of the page http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1212/connollyf.html)

I've listened to that.
It's not clear as to when he was talking to him.
From that interview Mr Feeney could have contacted McDowell and not the other way around.
It does clarify that they spoke but it doesnt imply that McDowell went to Feeney.

BrianD

If Connolly was a threat to the state is the normal means not to deal with it with the security apparatus and not naming him the Dail? Any other country would have him under check with a view to arresting him and putting him through the justice system. You don't give him a name check in the national parliament!! It's suggested that Connolly was fund raising. He didn't need to leave the country to do that nor will identifying him publicly stop him either. There has been no raids on his office or home to find documents. If McDowell was acting in the interests of national security he has made one hell of a f**k up worthy of anyones resignation. He's a joke. Just as well there is no threat! Mr. Bin Laden, I hear by call out your name in the Dail and I'm going to tell the Indo you might have a fake passport! Great strategy.

But todays Times is more telling. It seems that the Government weren't to keen on the CPI and the fact that a known Shinner might start digging dirt in an important year. McDowell has decided that the national interest and his political interests are now one and the same. So how do we get rid of these pesky investigators? Take them out with a smear campaign. He used his priveledge to dig through security records to dish the dirt in the hope that it would stick. Don't forget that McDowells prison site in Nth. Dublin was next on the CPI list.

McDowell is a disgrace to his office and the values of this country and he must go. He usurped the law of the land and the constitutional rights of a citizen to a trial for any wrongdoing. Crucially he used the State's security apparatus for political gain. It's a pity that he is not effective in other areas of his office.

Tuars

Earthman wrote:

He clearly believes he has.

So why have no assets been seized. Where's the money? If it's still out there then the "threat to national security" reamains alive. If this is the case then the minister's behaviour is a little reckless.

Earthman wrote:

It seems to me to have one purpose and thats inquiry.Thats entirely different to IBEC.

I think you're deliberately miscontruing my point. CPI has the same role and influence on the state as any other lobby group.

Earthman wrote:

With respect there are plenty of Dáil committees charged with investigating lots of things and they are democratically accountable.They can have no untransparent agendaI've listened to that.

So why then are the gardai, the banks, the lawyers etc. allowed to regulate themselves without independent oversight?

BrianD

BrianD wrote:

McDowell is a disgrace to his office and the values of this country and he must go. He usurped the law of the land and the constitutional rights of a citizen to a trial for any wrongdoing. Crucially he used the State's security apparatus for political gain. It's a pity that he is not effective in other areas of his office.

Dont you mean the government must go?
They appear to be full square behind McDowell and doubtless the cabinet and certainly Ahern would have been aware of what McDowell was going to do.

It doesnt make sense to call for the resignation of just a minister when he had the full backing of his party, and his government for what he did.
You must call for the governments resignation.
As you are unlikely to get that, you are also unlikely to get McDowell's head on its own.

I suppose there will be a judgement made at the next election which isnt that far away.

Tuars

Tuars wrote:

So why have no assets been seized. Where's the money? If it's still out there then the "threat to national security" reamains alive. If this is the case then the minister's behaviour is a little reckless.

From what I've read of the case he is putting across, he(as Swiss has pointed out too) doesnt think Connolly is the right man to be fronting or having anything to do with an inquiry body.

I think you're deliberately miscontruing my point. CPI has the same role and influence on the state as any other lobby group.

It doesnt.It's purpose is inquiry,it doesnt have or shouldnt have any agenda from interested parties to be promoting(like IBEC does) .It seems McDowells, motives he would tell you ,are to ensure that.
He's gone about it in a very messy way but going back to earlier on in this thread,it's very easy for Connolly to clear this up assuming he can.
As I said, he could bring down a minister and certainly harm a whole government given that they too are supporting him.
I have to ask why, he's not doing that, thats a pretty harmless but crucial question.
No answer to it , suggests that Connolly has been caught out ie maybe he has been to Columbia to visit the Farc with his brother and ergo maybe he is no fit person to lead the CPI and maybe McDowells intentions are honourable in that he is demanding propriety of a body that styles itself of examining the lack of it.

So why then are the gardai, the banks, the lawyers etc. allowed to regulate themselves without independent oversight?

There is an independent financial regulatory body.
Theres a proposed police regulatory body, though not strong enough in my view.
There is an active ombudsmans office to deal with most aspects of the publics interactions with the state.

Tuars

Earthman wrote:

From what I've read of the case he is putting across, he(as Swiss has pointed out too) doesnt think Connolly is the right man to be fronting or having anything to do with an inquiry body.

Not good enough. Michael McDowell's opinion of Frank Connolly is irrelevant unless he can show that there is a threat to national security. I want to know the nature of the threat to national security. If showing support for a specific political agenda is a threat then we're all a threat. I think McDowell is trivialising the idea of a threat to national security.

Earthman wrote:

It doesnt.It's purpose is inquiry,it doesnt have or shouldnt have any agenda from interested parties to be promoting(like IBEC does) .It seems McDowells, motives he would tell you ,are to ensure that.

It is a privately funded organisation. What it should or shouldn't do is its own business. It is not a public institution. It is no more answerable to the public than any other lobby group or media organisation.

gurramok

Earthman, the govt ain't going to go against McD as they need the PD's to remain in power until the next general election is up.
By that time they hope the public will forget this affair and through McD's actions there will be no inquiry/report on the super-prison hence saving votes.

Bertie ain't sacrificing McD(senior member of coalition partner) for an unexpecting timing of a general election, he is putting party interests before state interests.
SS on Q&A stated that Mcd showed the file to Chuck Feeney hence his withdrawal of funding.
Tuars hit the nail on the head, if Connolly is such a threat to national security(McD alleging garda advice)..why don't the garda arrest him and charge him before the courts?

Also the Irish Council for Civil Liberties say McD must be investigated for constitutional and human rights violations over the affair!http://www.iccl.ie/criminalj/05_cpi.html

the1andonly1

Originally Posted by the1andonly1
In the interview McDowell gave to the news at one, he said he had discussed the matter with Chuck Feeney. (link at bottom of the page http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1212/connollyf.html)

I've listened to that.
It's not clear as to when he was talking to him.
From that interview Mr Feeney could have contacted McDowell and not the other way around.
It does clarify that they spoke but it doesnt imply that McDowell went to Feeney.

If Mr Feeney had gone to mcdowell or if it was the other way round is immaterial, Mcdowell provided feeney with information from a file that only the guards and the dept. of justice would have had access to. If I was to go to Mr. Mcdowell asking for information regarding someone I doubt it would be given to me. Therfore, I can only surmise that it was done to bring about the closure of the CPI. This is an organisation for which there is no record of any republican bias in its reports (one on the corrib gas field and another on trim castle I believe), and whose members (excluding Mr. Connoly, I believe a question mark surrounds him due to these allegations) are of high standing. To imply that the CPI has a republican bias, and would be used to subvert the security of the state is a disservice to the other members of this commision (including fergus flood, who would be no republican sympathiser), and to the people the CPI have employed is grossly unfair to them. I dont believe that Mr. Flood would allow any organisation to which he has in important role in, to be taken over, or used for, republican gain

Snickers Man

Question for Michael McDowell?

How many justice ministers in Europe are able to drop their sons down to rugby practice in their Merc on a Sunday morning without sign or light of a police bodyguard or escort?

I've seen you do that several times. (my young lad plays at the same club, it would be quite harmless to name it but I won't give your supporters the satisfaction of 'outing' your usual whereabouts on a Sunday morning). If this is such a subversively threatened country, why are senior cabinet ministers---like the one who is in charge of the Guards FFS--able to swan around without a thought for their own security?
I think you;re talking BS and that thsis is a cynical manouevre to silence and impoverish an investigative reporter who was going to look at even dryer subject that Eddie Hobbs' rip off republic, and yet have the character and charisma to make it compelling viewing

Tuars

Tuars wrote:

Not good enough. Michael McDowell's opinion of Frank Connolly is irrelevant unless he can show that there is a threat to national security. I want to know the nature of the threat to national security. If showing support for a specific political agenda is a threat then we're all a threat. I think McDowell is trivialising the idea of a threat to national security.

That matter lies with Connolly though.
If he was visiting the Farc, and now is heading a venerable inquiry institution, its untenable.
At the very least it would be someone with very questionable judgement and views at the helm of €4 million worth of inquiry.
That simply must be cleared up.

It is a privately funded organisation. What it should or shouldn't do is its own business. It is not a public institution. It is no more answerable to the public than any other lobby group or media organisation.

You wanted the banks regulated a minute ago and they are privately funded...

gurramok wrote:

Earthman, the govt ain't going to go against McD as they need the PD's to remain in power until the next general election is up.
By that time they hope the public will forget this affair and through McD's actions there will be no inquiry/report on the super-prison hence saving votes.

From what I can see, the CPI hires journalists and they have been digging at the prison site for months already.
If theres some thing there it will come out , in the same way as normal.
If those employee's of the CPI have found something dodgy,I doubt very much that they are going to let it go.
If they havent well then , the prison thing is a non issue ie a red herring.

The main issue is Connollys whereabouts when he was supposed to be in Columbia.
Easily cleared up and as a bystander here I'm at a loss as to why its not being cleared up by the man himself.

Bertie ain't sacrificing McD(senior member of coalition partner) for an unexpecting timing of a general election, he is putting party interests before state interests.

Well he is taking a big risk then because Connolly wasnt in Columbia right? He's going to show that he wasnt isn't he?
Because to be frank, if he was, and if he refuses to confirm where he was, then its hypocrisy to be at the tiller of the CPI.

SS on Q&A stated that Mcd showed the file to Chuck Feeney hence his withdrawal of funding.

But when though? before or after he informed the Dáil? That asked, its blatantly obvious that if Connolly was involved with the Farc that Feeney should in McDowells eyes know about this.
The Farc would not be popular in the U.S establishment and certainly would be anathema to Atlantic Philanthropies.

Tuars hit the nail on the head, if Connolly is such a threat to national security(McD alleging garda advice)..why don't the garda arrest him and charge him before the courts?

Charge him with what? McDowells point seems to be that being with the Farc is not tenable with being with either the CPI or with Atlantic Philanthropies.
His point seems to be prevention of the usurption of the CPI for an agenda.

It's well within Connollys remit to counter that but he hasnt so far.

Also the Irish Council for Civil Liberties say McD must be investigated for constitutional and human rights violations over the affair!http://www.iccl.ie/criminalj/05_cpi.html

I've read that and note and understand its contents.
However the main action on this whole issue ie that Connolly clear this up is missing.The fact that there seems to be no sign of him showing (from easily obtainable records such as bank records etc) that he could not possibly have been in Columbia.
It's not a civil liberty to head up an orgaisation investigating probiety when you dont have that probiety yourself.

the1andonly1 wrote:

If Mr Feeney had gone to mcdowell or if it was the other way round is immaterial, Mcdowell provided feeney with information from a file that only the guards and the dept. of justice would have had access to. If I was to go to Mr. Mcdowell asking for information regarding someone I doubt it would be given to me.

Legally he's entitled to do what he did,though he should not have went through a journalist, he was entitled to do that too but really and truly he should have provided the information himself if he was so minded.I've said that already.

Therfore, I can only surmise that it was done to bring about the closure of the CPI.

I'd say Feeney would restore funding if Connolly can show McDowell is wrong or to the body without Connolly.

This is an organisation for which there is no record of any republican bias in its reports (one on the corrib gas field and another on trim castle I believe), and whose members (excluding Mr. Connoly, I believe a question mark surrounds him due to these allegations) are of high standing. To imply that the CPI has a republican bias, and would be used to subvert the security of the state is a disservice to the other members of this commision (including fergus flood, who would be no republican sympathiser), and to the people the CPI have employed is grossly unfair to them. I dont believe that Mr. Flood would allow any organisation to which he has in important role in, to be taken over, or used for, republican gain

It's clear that it hasnt been.I agree.
But that said it is in its infancy and to have confidence in it, it must be above reproach itself given that its nature is to be investigating matters of public interest and exposing corruption.

gurramok

Earthman wrote:

If they havent well then , the prison thing is a non issue ie a red herring.

If they did find somenthing, it will take a while now as they need to get new jobs in the right organistaions to expose what they found.
McD has just delayed any scandal until after the next election by his actions imho

Earthman wrote:

But when though? before or after he informed the Dáil? That asked, its blatantly obvious that if Connolly was involved with the Farc that Feeney should in McDowells eyes know about this.
The Farc would not be popular in the U.S establishment and certainly would be anathema to Atlantic Philanthropies. Charge him with what? McDowells point seems to be that being with the Farc is not tenable with being with either the CPI or with Atlantic Philanthropies.

From http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/topstories/6956025?view=Eircomnet
McD informed Feeney way back in august with his 'evidence' from the garda.
I quote :
"In the Dáil the Minister said he had cleared his decision with Cabinet colleagues before he briefed Mr Feeney about Mr Connolly's background last August, and said he had been briefed by senior gardaí beforehand."

Earthman wrote:

It's not a civil liberty to head up an orgaisation investigating probiety when you dont have that probiety yourself. Legally he's entitled to do what he did,though he should not have went through a journalist, he was entitled to do that too but really and truly he should have provided the information himself if he was so minded.I've said that already. I'd say Feeney would restore funding if Connolly can show McDowell is wrong or to the body without Connolly.
.

Feeney has taken McD word as well, he's been conned by McD to drop the funding with malicious allegations.
Justice Flood is due to meet him before end of year to perusade him to change his mind

BuffyBot

It is a privately funded organisation.

Which was purporting to be the "Centre for Public Inquiry"? You can't have it both ways.

Snickers Man

Snickers Man wrote:

Question for Michael McDowell?

How many justice ministers in Europe are able to drop their sons down to rugby practice in their Merc on a Sunday morning without sign or light of a police bodyguard or escort?

Wild guess - those who McDowell percieves (rightly or wrongly) to be threats to national security are not known for their great love of rugby. I would have thought the British Queen could drop her grandsons off at rugby practice in this country in relative safety.

the1andonly1

It's clear that it hasnt been.I agree.
But that said it is in its infancy and to have confidence in it, it must be above reproach itself given that its nature is to be investigating matters of public interest and exposing corruption.

But it is on this argument that McDowells case either stands or falls. Either the CPI is a republican front or not. If it can be shown to be, then maybe, maybe, Mcdowell has a case. He has stated that the reason behind the answer to the original Dail question was that it was a matter for state security, and that the security issue involved here (this I dont believe was stated, but implied by what he said last night in the Dail) was that the CPI would be a threat to our state. I believe that it is clear to all that the CPI is not a threat to the state in anyway, shape or form, though it may well be a threat to the ministers political party, and that of his partners in government. Therfore there is a reasonable motive fot Mcdowell to bring about its closure. Which he has effectivly done. And since it is clear that the CPI is not a threat, in justifying his leaks to the media, and his accusations of criminality by stating there is a threat to our security from it, he has lied. Therfore, he must resign

gurramok

BuffyBot wrote:

Which was purporting to be the "Centre for Public Inquiry"? You can't have it both ways.

If you have a look at the Atlantic Philanthropies website http://www.atlanticphilanthropies.org/giving_statistics/giving_statistics.asp,
a huge amount of public organisations are funded by Chuck Feeney, alot of them civil,charitable etc

A Dub in Glasgo

Sponge Bob wrote:

The questions are for Frank,Herr Flick has plenty to answer for in another thread (nearby ) .

What username does FC go by on this website?

A Dub in Glasgo

Sponge Bob wrote:

This Sponge is getting to be less than gruntled at the lack of co-operation with my public enquiry

Where were you on the 7th of May 2001? Show us some evidence?

Cork

Michael McDowell was right in bringing information to the public's attention.

I hope he continues letting us know about this type of thing.

Government TDs often give off the record briefings.

The oppostion and Spin Fein yesterday were a joke. Ministers give information to newspapers on a daily basis.

Michael McDowell came out and acknowledged he briefed the newspaper.

This country owes him a debt for standing up to SF/IRA.

BrianD

Why are we diverting from the real issue by asking for Frank Connolly to prove his innocence??

The real disgrace is the behaviour of our so called Minister for Justice.

Hello East Germany, we miss you!

gurramok

Deleted User wrote:

Wild guess - those who McDowell percieves (rightly or wrongly) to be threats to national security are not known for their great love of rugby. I would have thought the British Queen could drop her grandsons off at rugby practice in this country in relative safety.

The biggest threat to national security is the drugs gangs who unfortunately do not operate in McD's backyard, they only murdered a few hundred in the last few years in this fair city.
McD should answer for his neglect of the serious organised crime problem in this country.
A bloke got shot the other day for spilling another man's pint!!

Question for McD, why don't he name the dozen or so killer Drug Lords in this city under Dail privilege, is he afraid to get shot at rugby practice?

Hobart

Earthman wrote:

You'll have to forgive me, as I'm approaching this without having read SS's article so that would be news to me.
Though I assume you mean much the same as I have said ie, that it cannot be proven who requested the passport.
It is a given that the passport is in Connollys name-other wise there'd be no hoo haw here at all

I don't accept that (I'm also sorry if this has been linked too elsewhere on this thread). But I have not seen any sources which claim that this passport was applied for in the name of Frank Connolly. I would have thought that there would have been no issue about it, if this was the case. Could you link to the relevant report which states this?

If it is the case that this passport was in the name of Frank Connolly and was acompanied by photo's of him, what exactly is the issue?

Why would he apply for a "false" pasport in his own name and with his picture attached? It simply does not make sense.

Again, if I am missing something here I apologise.

Cork

BrianD wrote:

Why are we diverting from the real issue by asking for Frank Connolly to prove his innocence??

The real disgrace is the behaviour of our so called Minister for Justice.

Hello East Germany, we miss you!

No it is about Frank Connolly.

It is funny that people who criticise Michael McDowell see no problem with peoples names being dragged trough tribunerals for years and are not courts of law.

Cork

gurramok wrote:

Question for McD, why don't he name the dozen or so killer Drug Lords in this city under Dail privilege, is he afraid to get shot at rugby practice?

The IRA are surposed to have stopped such activity.

Peanut

the1andonly1 wrote:

... I believe that it is clear to all that the CPI is not a threat to the state in anyway, shape or form, though it may well be a threat to the ministers political party, and that of his partners in government.
...

Just speaking for myself, but I find it very disturbing that a group that purports to be an independent inquiry board, with well-respected members, has an executive director with very serious questions about links to paramilitary organisations.

It is also not the case that such a group would have a monopoly on investigative reporting, so the argument that it has been targetted due to a minister's self-interests is a bit weak.

the1andonly1 wrote:

...To imply that the CPI has a republican bias, and would be used to subvert the security of the state is a disservice to the other members of this commision (including fergus flood, who would be no republican sympathiser)

This is exactly why such an org. could be a very real threat to the security of the state. IF it is a cover for paramilitary intelligence gathering, the inclusion of people like Fergus Flood, while they may not be personally involved, would lend potentially false credence to the validity of the organisation in the eyes of the public.

I believe the government are entitled and indeed required to act in such a situation, although the means of doing so are definitely open for debate.

A Dub in Glasgo

Cork wrote:

No it is about Frank Connolly.

It is funny that people who criticise Michael McDowell see no problem with peoples names being dragged trough tribunerals for years and are not courts of law.

I musted have been off sick the day there was a tribunal into the CPI or FC. Please, let me know when this happened.