McDowell Controversy

Hobart

Sponge Bob wrote:

Kroll are quite capable international investigators but Kroll do not come cheap .

Who paid for that public inquiry . Was it :

The Irish-American billionaire met the minister in Dublin in September and his charity subsequently hired the services of Kroll Associates

Why don't you read the posts?

BrianD

Sponge Bob wrote:

It was in a separate thread for discussion on its own merits until the mods ****ed it in here with the McDowell bashing, can ye take it back out FFS .

He is not really being asked to prove his innocence BrianD but to answer some questions arising from April 2001 . I merely invited Frank , Mr Public Inquiry himself , to help a Sponge with specific enquiries of particular interest to that Sponge

You are avoiding the issue. What Connolly did or didn't do is irrelevant. Why are we asking him questions? It is a separate issue. To start linking the two is dangerous. Reminds me of days gone by when the IRA committed an atrocity, the Shinners would say "well look at what the British Army is doing ..." One does not justify the other.

McDowell is completely and utterly wrong to behave in the way he did. It's unbelievable in this day and age. He should change is name to McCarthy. Perhaps we can transport him back to 1950's America.

The important issue is actually Connolly in this case.
He lied it would seem to his board according to Feeney.

BrianD

BrianD wrote:

McDowell is completely and utterly wrong to behave in the way he did. It's unbelievable in this day and age. He should change is name to McCarthy. Perhaps we can transport him back to 1950's America.

As I said earlier you may as well say that about his entire cabinet.

Seeing as we are into comparisons.
What law did McDowell break?

Hobart

Earthman wrote:

Seeing as we are into comparisons.
What law did McDowell break?

It's not exactly about breaking the law now is it? You could say the exact same thing about Connolly, and yet we have people here baying for his head and asking for all sort of personal details about him. the fact is that McDowell lobbyied CF to withdraw funding. Funding from an organisation which was investigating a matter the minister staked his political future on. He may not have broken any laws, but did he act appropiately given the facts? Would he act in this way, against an innoncent citizen of this country, if the future? Is this the way that we should be handling matters of national importance and security?

stevenmu

Earthman wrote:

The important issue is actually Connolly in this case.

I completely disagree. Perhaps Connolly was helping raise funds for the IRA to help them subvert the state or perhaps not.

McDowell on the other hand is claiming that he has evidence which proves somebody guilty of a crime and asking us to trust him on it*, and yet apparantly there isn't enough evidence to warrant a criminal trial in our justice system, the standard by which any free democratic society determines guilt. By bypassing this justice system and trying to declare a man guilty in the forum of public opinion, McDowell himself is the one who is subverting our democratic system of governement. He's only one step short of snatching people off the streets and shipping them off to Guantanamo Bay**. If the evidence in McDowell's hand is enough to convince him, why is it felt by the DPP that it's not enough to convince a jury, one of them has to be very wrong.


*Exactly like when he claimed he had conclusive evidence that the leadership of SF were behind the Northern Bank raid, I still haven't heard of any SF or known IRA members being arrested for that one.

** Ok, the Gitmo part's an exaggeration, but the rest of the post was fairly well balanced, so I deserve a bit of hyperbole.

Sponge Bob

Hobart wrote:

Why don't you read the posts?

I did. Read it again Hobart but read it CAREFULLY please just for once for ickle ickle Sponge Bob . You have a flea in your ear, poor diddums. Chill I say (and happy seasonals to you and yours too lest I forget ) !!!

It says that After McDowell met Chuck then Chucks foundation 'hired' Kroll .

I asked WHO PAID FOR KROLL to do the investigation not WHO CONTRACTED KROLL to do the investigation .

God Almighty

Seth Brundle

Nuttzz wrote:

It is understood that reports from private investigators in Dublin, Colombia and the US corroborated the details about Mr Connolly and the CPI in Mr McDowell's briefing.

If there is evidence of wrongdoing by FC out there then this is why the gardai, the DPP and the judiciary all have jobs. It is not up to the minister to make decisions as to whether someone is guilty of an offence or not. In fact the minister should play no part in an investigation or subsequent trial. By now, he may well have prejudiced any forthcoming trial against FC on this issue.

stevenmu

stevenmu wrote:

McDowell on the other hand is claiming that he has evidence which proves somebody guilty of a crime and asking us to trust him on it*, and yet apparantly there isn't enough evidence to warrant a criminal trial in our justice system, the standard by which any free democratic society determines guilt. By bypassing this justice system and trying to declare a man guilty in the forum of public opinion, McDowell himself is the one who is subverting our democratic system of governement.

Thats not my understanding.
My understanding is that he was declaring a matter of public interest.
If Feeneys investigators know Connolly was in Columbia, then how did he get there? If he used his own passport then that would be recorded.

How can you argue against exposing hypocrisy?
I'd imagine Justice Flood feels a right fool now that it appears Connolly lied.

It seems little wonder that Connolly doesnt want to prove where he was, in the light of this information.

Hobart wrote:

It's not exactly about breaking the law now is it? You could say the exact same thing about Connolly, and yet we have people here baying for his head and asking for all sort of personal details about him. the fact is that McDowell lobbyied CF to withdraw funding. Funding from an organisation which was investigating a matter the minister staked his political future on. He may not have broken any laws, but did he act appropiately given the facts? Would he act in this way, against an innoncent citizen of this country, if the future? Is this the way that we should be handling matters of national importance and security?

Actually heads are being called for on both sides depending on which side is being taken.
He will claim he acted in the public interest and to be frank,on the basis that Connolly according to Feeneys investigations(which done by Kroll would be thorough) has been acting inappropriately for the director of the CPI-I'd have to say it is in the public interest that this has came to light-though McDowell did go about it in an awkward way.

Sponge Bob

BrianD wrote:

You are avoiding the issue. What Connolly did or didn't do is irrelevant.

What Connolly did or did not do is separate and has its own thread sponsored by the Sponge Bob Centre of Public Inquiry . If you feel that Frank should not contribute to that thread and can make a rational case not to co-operate with the estimable Sponge Bob Centre of Public Inquiry then do contribute said rationale to that thread.

The Sponge Bob Centre of Public Inquiry has the right to ask Frank certain questions simply becuase Sponge Bob has set up a Centre of Public Enquiry here on Boards to ask the unaskable of the unwilling , just like Franks did with his centre. Its called symettry BrianD . He should be able to answer the 6 questions in 5 minutes flat . Gwan there Frank !!!!

McDowell OTOH has plenty of questions to answer irrespective of whether Frank contributes to my Centre and its current Investigatory Matrix and has kicked up a rats nest of legal conundrums . It is undignified for a Justice Minister at best and quite likely worse than that.

Over and above the legalo administrative mess he has undoubtedly created he may be right in principle to have done what he did. On a technicality ...or 7.... he may well be forced to resign for a few months as a Cabinet Minister but History will see the big picture and may be very very kind to him nevertheless

kbannon

kbannon wrote:

If there is evidence of wrongdoing by FC out there then this is why the gardai, the DPP and the judiciary all have jobs. It is not up to the minister to make decisions as to whether someone is guilty of an offence or not. In fact the minister should play no part in an investigation or subsequent trial. By now, he may well have prejudiced any forthcoming trial against FC on this issue.

The only wrong doing appears to be the passport for which theres not enough evidence.
The rest ie, his visit to the Farc would be a public interest issue-so what the Gardaí or the DPP do is of little bearing.

Sponge Bob

Earthman wrote:

He will claim he acted in the public interest and to be frank,on the basis that Connolly according to Feeneys investigations(which done by Kroll would be thorough) has been acting inappropriately for the director of the CPI-I'd have to say it is in the public interest that this has came to light-though McDowell did go about it in an awkward way.

**** Me Pink , Frank is actually a Mod on the politics board . No wonder my threads are being merged out of sight.

Seth Brundle

Earthman wrote:

though McDowell did go about it in an awkward way.

I think awkward is a bit of an understatement!

Sponge Bob

Sponge Bob wrote:

**** Me Pink , Frank is actually a Mod on the politics board . No wonder my threads are being merged out of sight.

Ha Ha
My seat fell apart from my laughing at that one... (Not)
Now please stay on topic

stevenmu

Earthman wrote:

Thats not my understanding.
My understanding is that he was declaring a matter of public interest.
If Feeneys investigators know Connolly was in Columbia, then how did he get there? If he used his own passport then that would be recorded.

EDIT: Conversely, if he used a fake passport, this too would be recorded, and along with the fake application this would surely be enough to convict him, or at least warrant a trial, which it does not appear will happen.

Earthman wrote:

How can you argue against exposing hypocrisy?
I'd imagine Justice Flood feels a right fool now that it appears Connolly lied.

It's not McDowells job to expose hypocrisy. Every democracy needs a fair, unbiased, independant judicial system to survive. It is his job to ensure that this state has one and that it functions well. Instead of doing this, he is bypassing our judicial system, thereby weakening it, and damaging the democratic system he claims he's trying to protect (as always with politicians, there's plenty of hypocrisy to go around). It's the political equivelant of cutting off your nose to spite the face.

Sponge Bob

Earthman wrote:

The rest ie, his visit to the Farc would be a public interest issue-so what the Gardaí or the DPP do is of little bearing.

Emmm , NOT actually o Frank One , the bearing is profound !

Who is responsible for the proper performance of the Garda, is it Chuck, Frank, Kroll , Thomas the Tank Engine or one Micheál Mac Dowell.

If Feeney hired investigators who found out stuff the guards did not find out that implies that the guards did not investigate properly .

Did the fact that Feeneys investigators found the information actually cause the prosecution to be finally kyboshed by the DPP in case Feeneys investigators were called into court as witnesses to compare 'their' information to what the guards were prepared to present in court as the results of the Garda investigation in 2002 (ish) .

The DPP may have looked at the results of teh two investigations, available circa September 2005 , and decided not to prosecute thereafter. The sub judice issue would have been a non runner thereafter thereby allowing McDowell to punt the issue into the public domain.

It could not have been punted in 2002 when some details leaked out about travellers to the Farc zone becauuse the matter was sub judice in 2002 .

Sponge Bob

Sponge Bob wrote:

Emmm , NOT actually o Frank One , the bearing is profound !

You come out with one more of those and you will get a two week ban from here for trolling.

Who is responsible for the proper performance of the Garda, is it Chuck, Frank, Kroll , Thomas the Tank Engine or one Micheál Mac Dowell.

If Feeney hired investigators who found out stuff the guards did not find out that implies that the guards did not investigate properly .

The Guards had nothing to investigate.FranK Connolly can go visit the Farc if he wants to, he's not breaking any Irish law by doing so.
He would be holding himself up though as being associated with both the IRA and Farc which is a public interest issue-especially when he's directing a group whose interest is in investigating corruption amongst other things.

stevenmu wrote:

EDIT: Conversely, if he used a fake passport, this too would be recorded, and along with the fake application this would surely be enough to convict him, or at least warrant a trial, which it does not appear will happen.

It might not be if it wasnt used.

It's not McDowells job to expose hypocrisy. Every democracy needs a fair, unbiased, independant judicial system to survive. It is his job to ensure that this state has one and that it functions well. Instead of doing this, he is bypassing our judicial system, thereby weakening it, and damaging the democratic system he claims he's trying to protect

How is he bypassing it ? If he's charged with procuring a false passport , all McDowell has done is make a copy of it available.If the DPP is investigating a murder, charges can still be brought and a conviction secured when the evidence of the murder is reported in the paper.

(as always with politicians, there's plenty of hypocrisy to go around). It's the political equivelant of cutting off your nose to spite the face.

I accept that he shouldnt have went down the newspaper route.That said theres little to convict Connolly on if anything at all.There is a public interest in whether or not he has subversive links though and in whether he is willing to deny this ie lie.

Hobart

Sponge Bob wrote:

Emmm , NOT actually o Frank One , the bearing is profound !

Your lame atempts at hilarity are becoming tiresome and are actually distracting from the discussion.

Who is responsible for the proper performance of the Garda, is it Chuck, Frank, Kroll , Thomas the Tank Engine or one Micheál Mac Dowell.

Yes, you are correct..to a point.

If Feeney hired investigators who found out stuff the guards did not find out that implies that the guards did not investigate properly .

This is pure fantasy on your behalf. We have no idea what the invetisagtors found out. They may have found out more, or they may have found out less. Who knows? Not you. I would contend that a billionaire investor only needs to see a hint of scandal, in order to withdraw his funding, wheras the DPP/Guards/Officers of the state, need a thing called proof.

Seth Brundle

ƒ

Tuars

The key issue for me is McDowell's invoking of "the threat to national security" as a means to justify his actions.

Since the security services have stated that Frank Connolly is not a threat to national security then his activities are of no interest to the state. They are a matter solely for his employers at the CPI. If they judge him fit for the post then it is on that decision that the reputation of their organisation will stand or fall. They will be judged by the court of public opinion.

What McDowell has done is to use his position as Minister for Justice to access confidential state files and use them to undermine the CPI in an underhanded and roundabout way. When his activities became public knowledge he post-facto invoked "the threat to national security" as a means to justify his actions.

If Frank Connolly or the CPI are really a threat to national security then I am not happy that the threat is being dealt with in this manner. After all, Frank Connolly and the CPI are still on the loose and capable of plotting who-knows-what to destroy the state.

If Frank Connolly or the CPI are not a threat then I am not happy that the Official Secrets Act has been abused in this way.

Frank Connolly's fitness for office at the CPI is outside the remit of the Minister for Justice.

Tuars

Tuars wrote:

Since the security services have stated that Frank Connolly is not a threat to national security then his activities are of no interest to the state.

To be definitive about that, you would want to know what the definition of a threat to national security is. we dont even have a statement from the Guards on this.It is usually the state or more correctly the government of a country that determines what is or isnt national security.Ergo your statement there doesnt hold water.

They are a matter solely for his employers at the CPI. If they judge him fit for the post then it is on that decision that the reputation of their organisation will stand or fall. They will be judged by the court of public opinion.

Yes they will.McDowell more so though as he will have to face the electorate.

What McDowell has done is to use his position as Minister for Justice to access confidential state files and use them to undermine the CPI in an underhanded and roundabout way. When his activities became public knowledge he post-facto invoked "the threat to national security" as a means to justify his actions.

How do you know if it wasnt his genuine reason? Surely you are being subjective there.

If Frank Connolly or the CPI are really a threat to national security then I am not happy that the threat is being dealt with in this manner. After all, Frank Connolly and the CPI are still on the loose and capable of plotting who-knows-what to destroy the state.

Ah now come on, you must be taking the michael.We live in an open society.Who would take Frank Connolly's attempts to subvert the state with some report or other seriously if he lied to the board of his company and to the national media about being in Columbia.

If Frank Connolly or the CPI are not a threat then I am not happy that the Official Secrets Act has been abused in this way.

How is the official secrets act being abused? A false document is not an official secret.

Frank Connolly's fitness for office at the CPI is outside the remit of the Minister for Justice.

Is it ? I wouldnt have thought so.They purport to investigate public bodies for probriety and corruption.I'd have though that a minister for justice would be very interested in ensuring that its director was beyond reproach ie that it should be subject to the same standards as it demands of the bodies it wants to investigate.
Thats a basic requirement in my view.

Sponge Bob

Earthman wrote:

You come out with one more of those and you will get a two week ban from here for trolling.

LOL

The Guards had nothing to investigate.FranK Connolly can go visit the Farc if he wants to, he's not breaking any Irish law by doing so.

The guards were investigating the procurement by someone of a false passport and its subsequent use .

If they were not investigating it then I am flabbergasted TBH .

At some point investigations stop, files go to DPP. DPP decided to charge or hands back to guards and asks for more evidence.

Guards may hand back later to DPP who may still require more evidence.

At some stage it may be decided NOT to charge and go to trial based on this evidence.

Once that decision is made then the matter is no longer sub judice is it .

Tuars

Earthman wrote:

To be definitive about that, you would want to know what the definition of a threat to national security is.

Apparently, it's whatever Michael McDowell defines it as. I would like him to spell out in a little more detail exactly what the threat is so I can be on alert. I would hope that it is a little more than "an as yet unwritten report from the CPI that might possibly dupe me into voting for someone other than the PDs".

Earthman wrote:

we dont even have a statement from the Guards on this.

The gardai have said he is not under surveillance and that they have no interest in him at present.

How do you know if it wasnt his genuine reason?

If it was a genuine reason then why didn't he go to the Dail in the first place instead of informing the chosen ones first?

Ah now come on, you must be taking the michael.We live in an open society.Who would take Frank Connolly's attempts to subvert the state with some report or other seriously if he lied to the board of his company and to the national media about being in Columbia.

Are you saying that it is enough to throw out unproven allegations and nods-as-good-as-a-winks in order to counteract a threat to national security. I would expect a more robust response.

How is the official secrets act being abused? A false document is not an official secret.

McDowell quoted the official secrets act as giving him the powers to act as he did.

Is it ? I wouldnt have thought so.They purport to investigate public bodies for probriety and corruption.I'd have though that a minister for justice would be very interested in ensuring that its director was beyond reproach ie that it should be subject to the same standards as it demands of the bodies it wants to investigate.

I'm sure he is very interested but that doesn't give him the authority to decide who it employs.

Thats a basic requirement in my view.

Exactly. In your view. An opinion that you are entitled to but one that is not enforcable by law.

Tuars

Tuars wrote:

Apparently, it's whatever Michael McDowell defines it as. I would like him to spell out in a little more detail exactly what the threat is so I can be on alert. I would hope that it is a little more than "an as yet unwritten report from the CPI that might possibly dupe me into voting for someone other than the PDs".

As he has the full backing of his cabinet and as it was discussed there, it's not just him that would decide this.I'm sure its the same in most democratic countries.
Thats what governments are for and if you disagree with them you vote them out.

The gardai have said he is not under surveillance and that they have no interest in him at present.

So? I've already conceded that its not illegal to visit the farc, but its not something to put on your CV either when you pupport to be a fit person to direct a body that investigates corruption.

If it was a genuine reason then why didn't he go to the Dail in the first place instead of informing the chosen ones first?

I dont know but he didnt inform the chosen ones first, he discussed it with the cabinet and later informed the Dáil via a question answered.
He also informed Feeney who from the looks of things had concluded what he had concluded at around the same time as McDowell answered the question.
He says he gave the documents to Smyth because only smyth asked for them.

Are you saying that it is enough to throw out unproven allegations and nods-as-good-as-a-winks in order to counteract a threat to national security. I would expect a more robust response.

Nope,I'm understanding that McDowell acted as he did because this was in the public interest and it looks like he had good reason, given what now is coming into the public knowledge.

McDowell quoted the official secrets act as giving him the powers to act as he did.

I understand that he said it didnt prohibit him from doing what he did, which is an entirely different thing.

I'm sure he is very interested but that doesn't give him the authority to decide who it employs.

He's not , thats up to the CPI.If they want to emply someone that is economical with the truth and associates with the Farc, thats up to them-but it would shred their credibility to pieces.

Exactly. In your view. An opinion that you are entitled to but one that is not enforcable by law.

What exactly are you saying there?
Is it ok in your book for someone to lie about being in columbia and to lie about being associated with the Farc and at the same time to be a director of a body whose purpose amongst other things is to give a view on who is corrupt ?
I'd say it would be of great damage to the credibility of the CPI.
If they are going to be doing what they say in their mission statement, they shouldnt be directed by someone who hides what he's up to himself especially if its activity with subversives- that would be hypocrisy.

stevenmu

Earthman wrote:

It might not be if it wasnt used.

If it wasn't used then, assuming FC has been to Columbia, McDowell is tracking and publicly disclosing the legal movements of an Irish citizen.

Earthman wrote:

How is he bypassing it ? If he's charged with procuring a false passport , all McDowell has done is make a copy of it available.If the DPP is investigating a murder, charges can still be brought and a conviction secured when the evidence of the murder is reported in the paper.I accept that he shouldnt have went down the newspaper route.That said theres little to convict Connolly on if anything at all.There is a public interest in whether or not he has subversive links though and in whether he is willing to deny this ie lie.

He has ensured that at minimum FC will have to leave the CPI, and it's quite likely the CPI itself will end up having to close. He has released information fully knowing the consequences of it, in effect acting as judge and jury all on his own. While it may be in the public interest in this case, it is definitly not in the public interest to have a justice minister acting in this manner, and it's not the first time he's done it either.

stevenmu

stevenmu wrote:

If it wasn't used then, assuming FC has been to Columbia, McDowell is tracking and publicly disclosing the legal movements of an Irish citizen.

In the public interest in his view it would seem.

He has ensured that at minimum FC will have to leave the CPI,

Only if he's bringing it into disrepute which an association with the Farc and lying publically would be.

and it's quite likely the CPI itself will end up having to close.

Nope,I'd imagine Feeneys truck would be with Connollys reputation only. If Connolly was gone there wouldnt be an issue for Feeney and the funding could be asked for again.I dont see a reason then for refusal.Why would there be?

He has released information fully knowing the consequences of it, in effect acting as judge and jury all on his own.

No with the cabinet aswell.

While it may be in the public interest in this case, it is definitly not in the public interest to have a justice minister acting in this manner, and it's not the first time he's done it either.

Yeah he's done it before in relation to the SF leadership and the IRA army council, and on the northern bank robbery but in that case he did it and not a word of complaint was made by most of the Dáil

What does that tell me? That McDowell made a right muck of himself this time by acceding to a newspaper request in addition to already putting the information in the public domain and alerting Feeney to a possible problem.

Sponge Bob

stevenmu wrote:

While it may be in the public interest in this case, it is definitly not in the public interest to have a justice minister acting in this manner, and it's not the first time he's done it either.

I agree with you there Steven. Then again look who his Great Uncle was . Dear Great Uncle Kevin executed 77 republican prisoners during the Civil War while ....Minister for Justice of all things . Micheál , at least, is only a character assassin not a state sanctioned assassin like Kevin was.

A generation later Dear Uncle Tom was a well known republican basher as Chief Justice , he even extradited McGlinchey at a specially convened court sitting late on Paddys day (a judicial holiday) when appeals or habeas corpuses would have been difficult and the then Minister for Justice never even had to tell him to do it, gwan Tom .

Sponge Bob

Sponge Bob wrote:

I agree with you there Steven. Then again look who his Great Uncle was . Dear Great Uncle Kevin executed 77 republican prisoners during the Civil War while ....Minister for Justice of all things .

Thats about as relevant as your Great great great (times 1 million) Grandfather who was married to Eve and his relationship with apple tree's.

Micheál , at least, is only a character assassin not a state sanctioned assassin like Kevin was.

you cant assassinate a character if what you are alluding to is in actual fact the case.
Yesterday, I was waiting for Connolly to blow McDowell out of the water( not with semtex now mind ) but today it appears that Chuck Feeney has found out that Connolly has no intention of proving he was elsewhere as it may be difficult to prove what might be impossible.

Tuars

Earthman wrote:

I dont know but he didnt inform the chosen ones first, he discussed it with the cabinet and later informed the Dáil via a question answered.
He also informed Feeney who from the looks of things had concluded what he had concluded at around the same time as McDowell answered the question.
He says he gave the documents to Smyth because only smyth asked for them.

This is the part I have a problem with. If there is a threat to national security then this is not the way to deal with it. It gives me no confidence in the ability of the state to protect itself from threats to the nation's security.

Earthman wrote:

What exactly are you saying there?
Is it ok in your book for someone to lie about being in columbia and to lie about being associated with the Farc and at the same time to be a director of a body whose purpose amongst other things is to give a view on who is corrupt ?
I'd say it would be of great damage to the credibility of the CPI.
If they are going to be doing what they say in their mission statement, they shouldnt be directed by someone who hides what he's up to himself especially if its activity with subversives- that would be hypocrisy.

I have no problem with that analysis. As I said before the reputation of the CPI as a trustworthy organisation will live or die on its actions. That is not in dispute. What is in dispute is whether it is right that the Minister for Justice interferes in the business of that organisation and uses parliamentary privilege and vague allegations of threats to national security to do so.

Sponge Bob

Tuars wrote:

This is the part I have a problem with. If there is a threat to national security then this is not the way to deal with it. It gives me no confidence in the ability of the state to protect itself from threats to the nation's security.

The security of the state appears to rely on Sam Smyth asking for the information in the first place which is most odd. How does ONLY Sam know WHAT to ask for , does Sam have 4 eyes in his arse or something ??? ???

As I said before the reputation of the CPI as a trustworthy organisation will live or die on its actions. That is not in dispute.

Post Frank this could happen if it had a good director and not Ivana Bacik FFS . Sponge Bob offers himself as a competent director available at short notice with my mucker Ken Shabby as legman , Target #1 the corrupt venal useless and unpatriotic Comreg !!!!!

What is in dispute is whether it is right that the Minister for Justice interferes in the business of that organisation and uses parliamentary privilege and vague allegations of threats to national security to do so.

He did not target the centre per se, only the strong silent Frank