Man U V Wigan/Everton v West Ham(will contain scores)

TheMonster

MrJoeSoap wrote:

I felt that Van Nistelrooy could certainly have stayed on his feet, but didn't, therefore it may as well have been a dive imo. I'm not singling him out btw, but it is certainly sad to see that this happens in football, especially when a side is 3-0 up and cruising.

Would you get a life. What player will not go down if foulded in the area?

The Muppet

TheMonster wrote:

Would you get a life. What player will not go down if foulded in the area?

Man United players should not go down when fouled.:D

I don't believe the keepers fould on Ruud denied United a goal scoring oppertunity as Ruud was not going to get to teh nall to score. However any striker in the same position would have done the very same thing. It's not cheating nor diving IMO, he was fouled as there was definite contact.

cournioni

Was van Nistelrooy playing for the penalty? Yes.
Did the keeper get the ball? No.
Did he make contact with van Nistelrooy? Yes.

Therefore it is a penalty.

The Rooster

I wonder what the actual rule is, when he was not going to get the ball?

Some refs certainly do not give decisions when the person fouled was not going to get the ball anyway.

It was funny seeing the lads in the studio.

While Butch didnt come out straight and say it, you could see that he didnt think it was a penalty and he thought Van Nistelrooy should not have gone down.

Jamie on the other hand was certain it was a penalty, and thought it was great play by RvN to earn the penalty.

For those who didnt see it - Ruud was through on goal, the keeper dived to get the ball, but RvN knocked it past him but the keeper's hand was outstretched on the ground (made no contact with the ball), and RvN made sure contact was made with his foot, and down RvN went. IF RvN had avoided contact with the keeper, he would not have reached the ball before it went out of play. And as it was 3-0 it really didnt matter. Though it was funny RvN making absolutely certain he'd made no eye contact with Rooney

BaZmO*

The Muppet wrote:

crisis, what crisis?

Not making it into the knock-out stages in the Champions League by finishing last in arguably one of the easiest groups perhaps?

Back OT. Good win by Utd. last night. Rooney really is a class apart though. Even though he wasn't playing his best he could come up with 2 fantastic goals like that. Class.

Dunno about England winning the WC (very possible though) but Rooney would definitely be worth a punt for top goal scorer.

B.

LegacyUser

any links to the goals?

BaZmO*

BaZmO* wrote:

but Rooney would definitely be worth a punt for top goal

Just had a look, he's 18/1 too good to refuse. Even worth an each way bet.

B.

The Muppet

BaZmO* wrote:

Not making it into the knock-out stages in the Champions League by finishing last in arguably one of the easiest groups perhaps?

B.

:rolleyes:

BaZmO*

The Muppet wrote:

:rolleyes:

Great debating skills there Muppet.

B.

Kingp35

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Was van Nistelrooy playing for the penalty? Yes.
Did the keeper get the ball? No.
Did he make contact with van Nistelrooy? Yes.

Therefore it is a penalty.

Last time I checked football was a contact sport. That means every time you "make contact" with a player does not mean it is a foul. He could have stayed on his feet, he made sure he was touched, and then fell on the ground. Disgrace and totally agree with everyone who has said the professionalism has been lost in the top leagues. If you watch the championship you very rarely see anything like that or diving by a player.

PHB

Explain this clearly

Are you suggesting he moved his leg into a position it would not have been in in order to get a penalty?

OR

Are you suggesting he didn't make enough of an effort to ride the tackle?

OR

Are you suggesting he didn't make enough effort to dodge the tackle?

---

That means every time you "make contact" with a player does not mean it is a foul.

Nope, but every time you trip a player it is a foul, full stop.

MrJoeSoap

PHB wrote:

Explain this clearly

Are you suggesting he moved his leg into a position it would not have been in in order to get a penalty?

OR

Are you suggesting he didn't make enough of an effort to ride the tackle?

OR

Are you suggesting he didn't make enough effort to dodge the tackle?

Well I would suggest that he saw the keeper go to ground, said "I'll have a bit of that", made sure there was any sort of contact and fell over (not "fell over" as in the keeper tripped him and he couldn't avoid falling, but "fell over" as in he wanted a penalty).

bruachain wrote:

any links to the goals?

http://rapidshare.de/files/9190762/mu4.0wa.zip.html

Kingp35

PHB wrote:

Nope, but every time you trip a player it is a foul, full stop.

Yes of course it is but he wasnt tripped, he easily could have stayed on his feet but didnt, he threw himself to the ground. To Answer your question he did kind of move his foot in such a way so it would make contact with the goalkeeper.

Ny the way many players do this as was already said, RVN is just being used as an example as he did it last night

TheMonster

Kingp35 wrote:

Yes of course it is but he wasnt tripped, he easily could have stayed on his feet but didnt, he threw himself to the ground. To Answer your question he did kind of move his foot in such a way so it would make contact with the goalkeeper.

Ny the way many players do this as was already said, RVN is just being used as an example as he did it last night

Did he ask the keeper to dive at his feet when the ball was gone?;)

PHB

He moved his leg into a position to get fouled?
Just not at all true, thats just made up.
He made no effort to avoid the foul, and why should he have to?

MrJoeSoap

PHB wrote:

He made no effort to avoid the foul, and why should he have to?

Its only a foul if he doesn't avoid it...

Seriously though, its a pointless debate. Some people have one opinion of it, other people have another opinion of it. Nothing is going to change by us talking about it.

Kingp35

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Its only a foul if he doesn't avoid it...

Seriously though, its a pointless debate. Some people have one opinion of it, other people have another opinion of it. Nothing is going to change by us talking about it.

Agreed.

LegacyUser

The Muppet wrote:

:rolleyes:

In all fairness, he is totally right...That is the dissapointment of this season.

The Muppet

Bazmo wrote:

Great debating skills there Muppet.

B.

Thanks

cheesedude wrote:

In all fairness, he is totally right...That is the dissapointment of this season.

Disappointment certainly, crisis certainly not.

Hobart

bruachain wrote:

any links to the goals?

Speaking of links... Muppet???????????

MrJoeSoap

Hobart wrote:

Speaking of links... Muppet???????????

Hehehe

Hobart

I still don't think that it was total bsh!t on his part and I am convinced that he will provide the links. People have called him a liar, I think that they are wrong. Maybe he is missing my requests. I wonder If I put it in my sig, would I get a response?

The Muppet

Hobart wrote:

I still don't think that it was total bsh!t on his part and I am convinced that he will provide the links. People have called him a liar, I think that they are wrong. Maybe he is missing my requests. I wonder If I put it in my sig, would I get a response?

Here is the only link you or anyone else is getting. I have highlighted the piece you missed out on yesterday. Anyone that is around here long enough will know I don't lie, everyone else can make up their own minds .

If you continue to pursue this off the relevant thread I will be asking the moderators here to intervene.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=50540875&postcount=61

MrJoeSoap

The Muppet wrote:

Here is the only link you or anyone else is getting. I have highlighted the piece you missed out on yesterday. Anyone that is around here long enough will know I,m don't, everyone else can make up their own minds .

If you continue to pursue this off the relevant thread I will be asking the moderators here to intervene.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=50540875&postcount=61

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=50541492&postcount=68
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=50541707&postcount=75

Sure even a mod want you to name the site!

Hobart

The Muppet wrote:

Here is the only link you or anyone else is getting. I have highlighted the piece you missed out on yesterday.

Sorry maybe I did not make myself clear in my response to you last night, I see that you reread it a few minutes ago anyhow, but I did actually see that link. It was not what I was asking you about. As you have failed to respond to me directly, or indirectly, I took the opportunity to ask you here. If you want I can dig up the thread and ask, again, on that. What is your issue anyhow? why won't you give us this magical link? It would shut me up about it and It would dispell any confusion that has been brought up about your ability to have a balanced and reasonable debate on an issue, without resorting to childish BS to back up your point

The Muppet wrote:

Anyone that is around here long enough will know I,m don't,

Ok. I'll accept that, for what it is.Whatever it is.

If you continue to pursue this off the relevant thread I will be asking the moderators here to intervene.

You are free to do as you wish. If you so wish I will ask the question in the relevant thread. Sorry to all the users for dragging this off topic.

Davei141

PHB wrote:

every time you trip a player it is a foul, full stop.

And if you take a dive, you take a dive. should we give every player who jumps and tries to extend his foot to make contact with a player, a free kick or a penalty? Robert pires does this ALL the time, funny people think hes a diver, isnt it?

LegacyUser

The Muppet wrote:

Thanks





Disappointment certainly, crisis certainly not.

Oh i completely agree...it isn't a crisis. It is just what happens when you play sloppy in Europe. They punish you. These players need a kick up the arse. There letting themselves down by going out. Hopefully this will sort them out so they won't play like clowns next season in Europe.

Third_Echelon

United Beat WIGAN.... big deal.

Get back to me when they start beating important teams....

ZENER

Third_Echelon wrote:

United Beat WIGAN.... big deal.

Get back to me when they start beating important teams....

You mean . . . like . . Chelsea ???

ZEN

PHB

Like Chelsea?

MrJoeSoap

ZENER wrote:

You mean . . . like . . Chelsea ???

PHB wrote:

Like Chelsea?

Snap!

Third_Echelon

PHB wrote:

Like Chelsea?

My point being, that Utd have crashed out of europe big style, didn't beat everton and suddenly the biggest crisis that united have faced in the past decade is over with a win over wigan...

At the end of the season there will be a huge gap between united and chelsea. Now i like man utd. My dad is a big fan, so I've always followed them and want to see them do well, but united fans have to worry that they are going backwards...

The Muppet

Third_Echelon wrote:

My point being, that Utd have crashed out of europe big style, didn't beat everton and suddenly the biggest crisis that united have faced in the past decade is over with a win over wigan...

At the end of the season there will be a huge gap between united and chelsea. Now i like man utd. My dad is a big fan, so I've always followed them and want to see them do well, but united fans have to worry that they are going backwards...

I think you are missing the point, there is no crisis. There is certainly a disappointing European Cup campaign but 16 points from the last 6 games in the league is indication that there is no crisis except for the imaginary one being reported in the tabloids and being swallowed by some supporters.

Can't comment on where any team will be at the end of the season but as the league stands if you take Chealsea out of the equation I think the majority of United Fans would be very happy with the current position.

HarryHoudini

No Crisis! Of course theres a crisis! Do you think that by beating a team who's first season it is in the premier league signals theres no crisis. Dont make me laugh. Its not even Christmas and were 9 points behind the leaders and out of europe.

United have been underperforming for years now. I'm a united fan myself and I just knew that if we won big aginst wigan then this kind of nonsense talk was going to happen. Who have we beaten this season bar Chelsea that are any use at all?

Its all well and good beating Sunderland and Wigan, but if we cant hold our own in Europe and against the big teams then were lost.

And the sad part is, due to the fact we're out of europe, have less games to play and have fresher legs we will most likely finish second this season, gifting ferguson another season at the helm when he should have gone last year.

Ferguson is probably the best motivational manager in the world and has been for donkeys, but he's lost it tactically, the defence is all over the shop and the midfielders cant get the ball up to what is probably the best strike partnership in the premier league. We need someone like Wenger at the club, someone who is shrewd in the transfer market, who can make things happen tactically, someone who can spot an Henry from a Veron. Omar Hitzfeld would get my vote.

Hobart

I think that the CL is crisis enough for Manu tbh. As was argued elsewhere, the league is a secondary comp, in a lot of fans views, to the CL. Will united be happy with a runners up spot in the Prem and feck all else? I don't think so.

The Muppet

Hobart wrote:

As was argued elsewhere, the league is a secondary comp, in a lot of fans views, to the CL.

Rubbish the vast majority of fans first preference would be to win their domestic league ahead of European competitions.

galwaydude

Rubbish the vast majority of fans first preference would be to win their domestic league ahead of European competitions.

Thats rubbish,Utd won the league year in and year out in the ninetees.They werent satisfied untill they won the big one the CL.

Of course there is a crisis, every team goes through one. Just because you beat wigan doesnt mean crisis over.Does this mean ye cover up ferdinands frailities as a defender because he scores one goal.Of course not!!. Where was ferdinand and the like when they were loosing to benfica last week. They need to get back to functioned like a team. Even RVN is not at his best these days. The premiership needs a good Utd.

OTliddy

Hobart wrote:

As was argued elsewhere, the league is a secondary comp, in a lot of fans views, to the CL.

No.


It's the same old malarky; win a game there's no crisis, lose a game there is.
Take a step back and seperate the wood from the trees. Man Utd would be top of the league with their points total at this stage of most of the previous premierships. However, it appears there is a crisis in the league, as Chelsea have raised the bar massively.
Europe is the opposite. The standard of opposition has actually dropped and United do worse. It's like the Arsenal jinx and moved to United.

Overall, there is a crisis imo, but it's not a long-term thing. Signing a good, young midfielder and making a few tactical changes in Europe is all extra that's needed to end it.

ZENER

I think European Trophies look well in the trophy cabinet (even imitations)but thinking about it I would rather be able to say my team came top of our domestic league than say they won in Europe and continued to fail at home. I'm still sore that they couldn't manage it but the benefit of this is more time to concentrate on the EPL and maybe the FA Cup.

United have 16 points from 6 domestic games I think now, that's not that bad considering the injuries and the obvious loss of Keane to the squad. Chelsea will drop points over Christmas without doubt and January will see a vastly different top of the table.

It make me laugh the way people talk of the decline of Man United just like they did when Blackburn won the PL and the time Arsenal were preparing to be the dominant team for a spell - still waiting for that btw ! It's well you might scoff at the fans cheering a win over poor Wigan Ath. but remember Chelsea could only manage a dodgy 1 goal against them and were extremely lucky to beat them the first game of the season. Wigan have a godd spirited side, and team spirit can be all a team needs - look at past ROI teams

I think given the turmoil of the last few months - the take over, financial restraints, injuries, Keanes departure, Ronaldos rape accusation and so on I 'd give Fergie the benefit of the doubt and let him try turn it around again when the dust settles. As for being 9 points behind, we've been there before - 12 points was it ?

ZEN

Pepe LeFrits

The Muppet wrote:

Rubbish the vast majority of fans first preference would be to win their domestic league ahead of European competitions.

And that is going to happen when...?

Necronomicon

galwaydude wrote:

Even RVN is not at his best these days.

Give me a break. 12 goals in 15 league games so far, plus a handful of assists...care to list out the strikers who have been performing better than him so far?

The Muppet

Pepe LeFrits wrote:

And that is going to happen when...?

I Dont Know Kaids but I will keep supporting them whether it does or doesn't happen just like your supporters are supporting your manager now that your form has dipped. That's what supporting is about, It's not all about silverware.

galwaydude wrote:

Thats rubbish,Utd won the league year in and year out in the ninetees.They werent satisfied untill they won the big one the CL.

In 1993 which trophy did United fans want the most ? I agree after they had won the league a few times the thoughts turned to Europe. I think you are a pool supporter. Given the choice this season which competition would you rather your team win?

galwaydude

RVN is coming back to his best now and about time too as there is noone better in the premiership apart from maybe henry.All i was saying is that he hasnt preformed like he has over the last number of seasons.

Jivin Turkey

The Muppet wrote:

I Dont Know Kaids but I will keep supporting them whether it does or doesn't happen just like your supporters are supporting your manager now that your form has dipped. That's what supporting is about, It's not all about silverware.

There is a huge difference between supporting a manager and supporting a club. They can be mutually exclusive.

And going back the CL vs PL thing, any club that is dominating domestically wants to start winning the CL, and club that isn't wants to get the PL. In years gone by the CL would have been United's main priority IMO, now that their grasp on the league has loosened the first priority is win it back. As a Liverpool fan I'd much rather win the league that the CL as they havn't won the league in years! I'm sure if Chelsea win the PL this year, but not the CL, the CL will be the main goal for next year.

The Muppet

Jivin Turkey wrote:

There is a huge difference between supporting a manager and supporting a club. They can be mutually exclusive.

And going back the CL vs PL thing, any club that is dominating domestically wants to start winning the CL, and club that isn't wants to get the PL. In years gone by the CL would have been United's main priority IMO, now that their grasp on the league has loosened the first priority is win it back. As a Liverpool fan I'd much rather win the league that the CL as they havn't won the league in years! I'm sure if Chelsea win the PL this year, but not the CL, the CL will be the main goal for next year.

I can agree with that. That is basically what I have been saying

PHB

United have been underperforming for years now

Actually, United have been preforming at similar levels for the last 15 years.
The difference is that the other teams have stepped up a gear, Arsenal two years ago, Chelsea last year and this year, and United are having trouble competing.

That said, 16 points from 18 i'm fairly happy with, and if we win on sat morning, its a 6 point gap, with Chelsea havign a game in hand against Arsenal.
I can live with that, especially when Christmas comes around.
United are always fantastic at Christmas time, Mourinho hates it cause he is very prone to picking the same 11 week in week out, which I think is the funniest thing in football btw, and in turn they get tired.
p.s.

At some point in the future, Lampard/Terry is going to get injured badly because of the stress and the injections on his body, and then we will see what happens to Chelsea :P

Hobart

The Muppet wrote:

Rubbish the vast majority of fans first preference would be to win their domestic league ahead of European competitions.

I don't believe you. If you have evidence of this (balanced that is) I will change my mind. I would have to argue that Celtic, for example, would rather win the CL than the scottish league.

HarryHoudini

PHB wrote:

Actually, United have been preforming at similar levels for the last 15 years.
The difference is that the other teams have stepped up a gear, Arsenal two years ago, Chelsea last year and this year, and United are having trouble competing.

But isn't that the problem right there, its no use standing idly by while others catch up. To quote Dylan, He not busy being born is busy dying.

astrofool

Hobart wrote:

I don't believe you. If you have evidence of this (balanced that is) I will change my mind. I would have to argue that Celtic, for example, would rather win the CL than the scottish league.

When Rangers were going to beat Celtic's 9 in a row record, all Celtic wanted was to win the league.

If you do win year in, year out, then yea, clubs set their sights on europe. Lyon, for example, are winning the french league 4/5 seasons in a row, and hence now trying to start getting further in europe. Ask them 4/5 seasons ago, and the league would have been the priority, just as Utd. when they went without winning the league for so long, wanted the league, when they became dominant, they set their sights on europe, now they haven't won the league for a couple of years, their sights will be on the league again.

Even last season, chelsea's main aim was the league.

As an aside, I haven't read any of the posts in your signature Hobart, but it does make you look like a petty petty idiot, who should really grow up. I hope you have the excuse of being 12 or 13 years old.

Hobart

astrofool wrote:

When Rangers were going to beat Celtic's 9 in a row record, all Celtic wanted was to win the league.

I would not disagree with you on this, it was to beat a record after all, and the rivalry between Celtic and Rangers is ingrained. However I would still maintain that Rangers/Celtic...most other clubs would prefer a CL to a League title. That's just my opinion, nothing more or less.

If you do win year in, year out, then yea, clubs set their sights on europe. Lyon, for example, are winning the french league 4/5 seasons in a row, and hence now trying to start getting further in europe. Ask them 4/5 seasons ago, and the league would have been the priority, just as Utd. when they went without winning the league for so long, wanted the league, when they became dominant, they set their sights on europe, now they haven't won the league for a couple of years, their sights will be on the league again.

Again I would agree with you, to a certain extent. However Manu have little chance of winning the league, on past form, and are out of Europe in what was argueably the easiest group. So it's a fairly moot point as it looks as if they won't win either.

Even last season, chelsea's main aim was the league.

Why would you conclude that? Was Murinho noted quoted as saying that his priorities was ALL comps?

As an aside, I haven't read any of the posts in your signature Hobart, but it does make you look like a petty petty idiot, who should really grow up. I hope you have the excuse of being 12 or 13 years old.

Thanks for your opinion on that. I am sure that there is a section in the charter about personal insults, I must look it up. It's amazing how you find objectionable, while the poster in question actually welcomed "the publicity".