Man made God in his own image.

Firewalkwithme

Don't tell me that Space Cadets is the biggest hoax in history, if you're reading this you probably already know what The Great Hoax was and continues to be for some. Or should that be The Great Hope?

They say God made man in his own image but it seems to me that Man made God in his own image. But not quite, more an image of what he dreamed of being rather than what he is. A relatively simple form of life with aspirations of greatness far beyond his capabilities.

Discuss.

Rev Hellfire

Despatch wrote:

Discuss.

Is that an order ?

Tar.Aldarion

Well yes I would think that is quite true. It is also a bit odd that people would believe that humans are special over any other of "god's" creations. We are special, we are going to heaven! Nothing but humans get in though...in all the universe - we are his best creation, perfection...sigh...

A relatively simple form of life with aspirations of greatness far beyond his capabilities.

Indeed, arrogance sums up the human race as a whole for me tbh....

Dades

Despatch wrote:

Discuss.

How to irk posters from the get go...

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Indeed, arrogance sums up the human race as a whole for me tbh....

There is a lot of it out there, but IMO the idea of a benevolent god who walks among us is borne of need for the most part.

It's when your position as one of gods "chosen" people enables you to interfere with the lives and rights of others that the arrogance creeps in.

If we made god in our image, what does that say about those who follow the spaghetti monster or the IPU?

Excelsior

Can the initial poster give an example where man projects beyond himself in any other realm of life?

From my reading of Freud, Feuerbach, et al, the argument that man reaches up to an imaginary God is a deduction from the not at all suggestive observation that man tends to reach down in his private life on a sexual, emotional and intellectual level.

Or to put it another way, from where did the idea of perfection come?

bobbi

christianity is the biggest hoax of all time

Dades

bobbi wrote:

christianity is the biggest hoax of all time

Glad we cleared that one up.

thetourist

It is also a bit odd that people would believe that humans are special over any other of "god's" creations. We are special, we are going to heaven! Nothing but humans get in though...in all the universe - we are his best creation, perfection...sigh...

is that the accepted theology of christian religions then .... i never heard that before ...... my own understanding was that man was the only one who "fell" and so the only one of the species that needed "salvation" - i had assumed that this meant all other species were never going anywhere else !!

robindch

> Or to put it another way, from where did the idea of perfection come?

Plato.

Hagar

If god made man in his own image how come we don't all look the same?
Maybe he was Chinese.They all look alike.;)

UU

Yeah I'd have to agree with Despatch. I too think that man created God as I don't believe in a God as such but rather a "Living God" which is humankind and an Infinite Energy. An Australian friend of mine believes that we become God when we die - sort of like the Scientologist belief that we reach the 8th dynamic of Infinity in the end (I better not tell her that as I don't want to insult her!)

Anyway, I set up a similar thread in the Philosophy forum, it is called "Recreating God Afresh" http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054859558. I discussed how our ancestors created God long ago and God's keepers banished Him to heaven as they couldn't control people's different beliefs. Go on, have a read!

18AD

If the collective unconscious is real and all encompassing then all that is is the body of god. We're just gods within god, made in his image, body and mind.
But that's nonsense :rolleyes:

Asiaprod

18AD wrote:

If the collective unconscious is real and all encompassing then all that is is the body of god. We're just gods within god, made in his image, body and mind.
But that's nonsense :rolleyes:

Yes, you are very correct, that statement is nonsense.

EamonnKeane

Indeed, arrogance sums up the human race as a whole for me tbh....

Arrogant compared to what?

bounty

compared to non-arrogant people

everyone knows god is 10 foot tall, wears a white cloak, long white beard, and lives in heaven in the clouds

he also enjoys sitting on his trone, and im sure he has a huge pointy hat and decorates heaven with lots of crosses

Zombrex

Despatch wrote:

They say God made man in his own image but it seems to me that Man made God in his own image.

Yes true, but you can have great fun going into some of the churches in the south of the USA and telling them that God must be black since the first humans were black ...

Just make sure you have a fast get away car ... eee-yaahh!!

archdukefranz

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Well yes I would think that is quite true. It is also a bit odd that people would believe that humans are special over any other of "god's" creations. We are special, we are going to heaven! Nothing but humans get in though...in all the universe - we are his best creation, perfection...sigh...


Indeed, arrogance sums up the human race as a whole for me tbh....

Oh aren't we lucky that there are humble people like yourself to show us arogant folk how we should behave....

sigh indeed

Christianity doesn't bring up the issue of dogs and cats getting into heaven thats an assumtion based on it not being mentioned, similar to the question did adam have a belly button, I imagine it didn't really seem worth putting in.

We have to assume that there we are the most intelligent because we can't find anything that we understand to be more intelligent, we are actively looking you know.

Also anyone yet considered that perhaps in Gods image doesnt necessarily mean physical appearance?

archdukefranz

Despatch wrote:

Don't tell me that Space Cadets is the biggest hoax in history, if you're reading this you probably already know what The Great Hoax was and continues to be for some. Or should that be The Great Hope?

They say God made man in his own image but it seems to me that Man made God in his own image. But not quite, more an image of what he dreamed of being rather than what he is. A relatively simple form of life with aspirations of greatness far beyond his capabilities.

Discuss.

Depends on the God, some men made their God in the image of an elephant, some look physically like men but don't act like men...

Your question seems more like a statement
A call for all athiests to unite in their disbelief...

I say to thee "meh"

Dades

archdukefranz wrote:

Also anyone yet considered that perhaps in Gods image doesnt necessarily mean physical appearance?

Okay, I'll bite.

I presume you're not suggesting that God shares the same mental state as humans? Though, that would (for me) explain a lot of actions if he suffered from anger, pride, jealousy and a dollop of schadenfreude.

What other image is there?

archdukefranz

The Atheist wrote:

Okay, I'll bite.

I presume you're not suggesting that God shares the same mental state as humans? Though, that would (for me) explain a lot of actions if he suffered from anger, pride, jealousy and a dollop of schadenfreude.

What other image is there?

God being a completely perfect being would hardly suffer anything
but he does get angry, he is a Jealous God (in his own words), he is proud (A sense of one's own proper dignity or value; self-respect), no schadenfreude.

I was refering to all our abilities, we are able to love for example, something I'm not sure anything else is able to do.

Tar.Aldarion

archdukefranz wrote:

God being a completely perfect being would hardly suffer anything
but he does get angry, he is a Jealous God (in his own words), he is proud (A sense of one's own proper dignity or value; self-respect), no schadenfreude.

if this god is a completely perfect being, he would not get angry nor jealous nor be proud, That sounds more like a powerful human than anything else.
God said he is jealous, reference!

I was refering to all our abilities, we are able to love for example, something I'm not sure anything else is able to do.

Oh yes, animals can't love, i forgot.

Oh aren't we lucky that there are humble people like yourself to show us arogant folk how we should behave....

sigh indeed

So what makes humans so special, we evolved just like everything else on this planet and we have no diffences apart from we are a little more technologically and mentally advanced than those around us. yes, people are lucky to have people like me,ghandhi, einstein and less like the pope.
:v:

We have to assume that there we are the most intelligent because we can't find anything that we understand to be more intelligent, we are actively looking you know.

oh we must, must we? what do you know of the universe? how big it is, how many htere may be? we have seen practically noting of it in our little corner, shock that we are not the centre of it eh.

archdukefranz

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

if this god is a completely perfect being, he would not get angry nor jealous nor be proud, That sounds more like a powerful human than anything else.

In your definition of perfect, which in itself is not perfect?

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

God said he is jealous, reference!

No

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Oh yes, animals can't love, i forgot.

In the way we use love today, a slab of cheese could love
however not unconditionally

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

So what makes humans so special, we evolved just like everything else on this planet and we have no diffences apart from we are a little more technologically and mentally advanced than those around us. yes, people are lucky to have people like me,ghandhi, einstein and less like the pope.

yeah I would definately put you and ghandhi in the same category *cough*
a little? the animals around us haven't even mastered the use of tools!
The majority can't even hold them!
We on the other hand have reached the level of communication where we can talk real time with someone on the other side of the planet.

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

oh we must, must we? what do you know of the universe? how big it is, how many htere may be? we have seen practically noting of it in our little corner, shock that we are not the centre of it eh.

Its a lot bigger than it was a second ago.
Not really, the centre sucks, here is much better...
nope don't know how big it is, that kind of information isn't all that important to me either, I haven't yet got the means of getting from one end to the other.
There is an infinite amount of things to learn, you can't compare what we know to what we don't, it will always look just as small now or 50 million years away

dalk

Hagar wrote:

If god made man in his own image how come we don't all look the same?

To continue this. If god made us in his own image, why did he make apes, kind of in his own image?

Were they test runs?

Dades

archdukefranz wrote:

In the way we use love today, a slab of cheese could love however not unconditionally

I'd love a slab of cheese right now.

You mention pride - do you think he is proud of his creation?

Firewalkwithme

Must be Swiss cheese he's on about

Crucifix

But envy and pride are sins. Surely any rough definition of a perfect god must exclude him from sinning?

Tar.Aldarion

archdukefranz wrote:

In your definition of perfect, which in itself is not perfect?

What you mentioned are not perfections, they are even major fall downs for humans let alone a god. Your God shouldn't sin, should he?
Something perfect would be above that.

In the way we use love today, a slab of cheese could love
however not unconditionally

er ...ya ...

If something dies to protect it's child, you wouldn't call that unconditional love?

a little? the animals around us haven't even mastered the use of tools!
The majority can't even hold them!
We on the other hand have reached the level of communication where we can talk real time with someone on the other side of the planet.

In the scheme of things, we are only a little yes. In everyday life, sure we have phones, tools, etc, that makes us inherently superior?
If I am smarter than somebody, I am better than them?

There is an infinite amount of things to learn, you can't compare what we know to what we don't, it will always look just as small now or 50 million years away

In 50 million years we could probably more I'd say! Then again we would have continued evolving and mayhaps be quite smarter. In 50 million years I would say a human would consider us no more than an 'animal'.
Then again it's not like we are going to last that long.

the atheist wrote:

You mention pride - do you think he is proud of his creation?

Even I would be let down b this creation, give myself a good old kick in the imaginary ass.

archdukefranz

The Atheist wrote:

I'd love a slab of cheese right now.

You mention pride - do you think he is proud of his creation?

he saw what he made and said that it was good...
seems like pride to me

archdukefranz

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

What you mentioned are not perfections, they are even major fall downs for humans let alone a god. Your God shouldn't sin, should he?

For God to sin he would have to go against Gods will....
I don't believe that would make any sense

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Something perfect would be above that.

in your definition of perfect

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

If something dies to protect it's child, you wouldn't call that unconditional love?

nope

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

In the scheme of things, we are only a little yes. In everyday life, sure we have phones, tools, etc, that makes us inherently superior?
If I am smarter than somebody, I am better than them?

"better" is too broad, narrow it down
better for what purpose?

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

In 50 million years we could probably more I'd say! Then again we would have continued evolving and mayhaps be quite smarter. In 50 million years I would say a human would consider us no more than an 'animal'.
Then again it's not like we are going to last that long.

perhaps, but as I said in comparison to what there is to know, we will still know "nothing" 50 million multiplied by 0

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Even I would be let down b this creation, give myself a good old kick in the imaginary ass.

According to your set of morals, the creation isn't as you like it you mean?
Does that mean that no God could have created it and have pride in it

Crucifix

archdukefranz wrote:

in your definition of perfect

Out of interest, what's your definition of perfect?

3greenrizla's

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Your God shouldn't sin, should he?
Something perfect would be above that.

....perhaps that is what is meant by god made man in his own image, isn't our ableity to sin and lie that set's us apart......

the speach from Pulp Fiction comes to mind.

Tar.Aldarion

archdukefranz wrote:

For God to sin he would have to go against Gods will....
I don't believe that would make any sense

:aside: Sin doesn't exist to me, the only meaning it really has to me is the ordinate of the endpoint of an arc of a unit circle centered at the origin of a Cartesian coordinate system, the arc being of length x and measured counterclockwise from the point (1, 0) if x is positive or clockwise if x is negative.
(:

anyway, yes a God could sin. How do you define a god for one before I could start getting into anything.
Sin can be deliberate disobedience to the known will of a God that you believe in.
Something regarded as being shameful, deplorable, or utterly wrong.
To commit an offense or violation.
A god could do these things, Anybody can act and do act contrary to their own will.

in your definition of perfect

Perfect for me: By no means 'my' definition alone.
Being without defect or blemish.
Pure; undiluted; unmixed.
Excellent and delightful in all respects.
Of, relating to, or constituting a verb form expressing action completed prior to a fixed point of reference in time.

What is your definition of perfect?
The God you are speaking of is proud is it? Yet it said pride is a sin?
Pefection is different for everybody, people live by a set of moral codes, through instinct, society and their personal self. Something perfect to me can do no wrong and would be above human flaws such as pride, envy and especially anger.

nope

So, em what is unconditional love for you then?
Clearly it is love without condition that any human and animal can have.

"better" is too broad, narrow it down
better for what purpose?

Better s in, of more worth, having the right over them that you would claim over an animal.
Apes use tools to dig for water when surface water is dirty, nuclear power was mastered 2 billion years before humans existed by other organisms, why are we better? Oh because God made us especially did it?
You believe in 7 day creation and adam and eve?

perhaps, but as I said in comparison to what there is to know, we will still know "nothing" 50 million multiplied by 0

Em it doesn't work like that, multiplication won't come into it, we only add to our knowledge.

According to your set of morals, the creation isn't as you like it you mean?
Does that mean that no God could have created it and have pride in it

How do you define a god?
clearly the god you are talking about is the one people go on about creating us and the one there fore that has pride in his creation, this means you dismiss evolution and believe in the 'and god said it was good line'?

he saw what he made and said that it was good...
seems like pride to me

In your definition of pride.

archdukefranz

Crucifix wrote:

Out of interest, what's your definition of perfect?

Without flaw, but I was questioning his ability to be objective in determining flaws...

Morbert

What's with all this talk of "perfection"? Do any of you really think it contributes to an argument for/against God? Perfection is perfection is perfection. The word means little when discussing an entity who has supposedly carved out all of existence.

Could someone please explain why it's so important in a discussion about God?

Oh, and God doesn't exist you sillies.

bounty

i think my mam is perfect tbh

and she did create me.... and she still does my washing... im beginning to supect shes leading a double life...

Tar.Aldarion

Heh I was just thinking that this morning, my parents created me (in their own image no less), try to make my life as good as possible...maybe I should worship them.

Tar.Aldarion

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

... this morning, my parents created me

You're only a day old? :eek:

morbert: lies, damned lies!

Tar.Aldarion

bluewolf wrote:

You're only a day old? :eek:

morbert: lies, damned lies!

I keep telling myself(whilst rocking in a ball) that it is immaculate to.
*shudder*
But yes, One day give or take.

Dades

bluewolf wrote:

You're only a day old? :eek:

It may seem like it sometimes, but Tar wasn't born yesterday...

archdukefranz

create? isn't that to make out of nothing???
your parents didn't even make you, you came out of their body.
You are part of what God made.

legspin

archdukefranz wrote:

You are part of what God made.

As I refuse to believe in a fairy story - No I'm not
As far as I am concerned the only entity that created me, was and continues to be me. I am made in my own image of myself and I own the copyright. The world I live in influences the thought processes and ways of viewing myself that I use, but ultimately the blame has to lie with myself.
If for no other reason I can't blame anyone or anything else for the fcuk-ups I make.

Asiaprod

archdukefranz wrote:

create? isn't that to make out of nothing???
your parents didn't even make you, you came out of their body.
You are part of what God made.

What a load of hog wash.
1. Create has many meanings, only one of them is to create out of nothing and that definition refers specifically to the religious connotation of create (Webster 9th new Colligate).
2. What on earth do you mean by your parents didn't even make you, you came out of their body. Now you sound like our fundie friends with their aged rocks, Polar Bears and other nonsense, Next thing you will tell me is God is sitting up there holding his magic embryonic wand waiting to catch a couple in the act so he can impart some new life. He must have felt really cheated when they CREATED dolly the cloned sheep. It is a hard fact of life that for two humans to reproduce naturally you need 1 sperm and 1 egg to produce an embryo. I know my mum never slept with God, and my dad would have a lot to say to God if he had. My mum did sleep with my dad and together they made me in their own likeness. If you have some contradictory proof of that I will be most happy to hear it and pass it on to the Old Man for you.
3. I am not part of what God made, I am part of what YOU think God made. Gee, I do hope I am not just an illusion in someone's eyes.

archdukefranz

legspin wrote:

As I refuse to believe in a fairy story - No I'm not
As far as I am concerned the only entity that created me, was and continues to be me. I am made in my own image of myself and I own the copyright. The world I live in influences the thought processes and ways of viewing myself that I use, but ultimately the blame has to lie with myself.
If for no other reason I can't blame anyone or anything else for the fcuk-ups I make.

you can't be made in your own image...

you are entitled to your disbelief

Morbert

you can't be made in your own image...

Don't take it so literally or you'll miss the point.

legspin

archdukefranz wrote:

you can't be made in your own image...

you are entitled to your disbelief

Whose image of me am I supposed to made in? The image of myself I have is the only image I will countenance.

You are the same, even down to the thoughts YOU have. Who else has the correct image of yourself? And you are the only onemaking that.
I have an image of you but you would probably find it insulting, and I am more than willing to admit I am wrong, indeed I would guarantee I am.
But your image of you is still the only that truly matters.
Letting anyone else define your own personal image is a dangerous precedent to set and leaves you open to all sorts of abuse.

Zombrex

archdukefranz wrote:

create? isn't that to make out of nothing???

No, not really. Well technically everything was created at the instant of the big bang, possibly out of "nothing" or possibly out of something we have no concept for.

But with relation to what you are made out of, you are made out of the food you consumed, and the food your parents consumed. The human body regenerates 98% of its cells every 3 months, which basically means 98% of you didn't exist 3 months ago. It takes a lot of food to regenerate 100 trillion cells every 12 weeks. There are only a small amount of cells that stay with you from birth to death, mostly in the spinal cord and brain. The average life of a human cell is 10 years, so even things like bone that you would think are pretty stead fast get updated and regenerated.

The food was other animals and plants which in turn made out of the food they consumed. You can go all the way back to Hydrogen atoms being turned into more complex atoms in side a star, and you can trace the hydrogen atoms back to the big bang.

God doesn't really come into it at any of these stages. Even if God exists, he didn't create you, he didn't create your parents or their parents etc etc. Suppose it is possible he created the big bang, and indirectly created everything, but he had very little role in you specifically

archdukefranz

legspin wrote:

Whose image of me am I supposed to made in? The image of myself I have is the only image I will countenance.

You are the same, even down to the thoughts YOU have. Who else has the correct image of yourself? And you are the only onemaking that.
I have an image of you but you would probably find it insulting, and I am more than willing to admit I am wrong, indeed I would guarantee I am.
But your image of you is still the only that truly matters.
Letting anyone else define your own personal image is a dangerous precedent to set and leaves you open to all sorts of abuse.

you are allowing the many meanings of the word image to mislead you...

to be made in the image of is to be made in the likeness of, nothing to do with personal image etc.

Myksyk

Doesn't it say in John or something that "God is Spirit..." from which I take that the notion that we are made in his image must apply to our supposed souls not our physical appearance.

Excelsior

Although your method is a little shaky, you are totally right. Our image bearingness is bound up in our ability to sub-create.