Does God exist? the definitive answer.

rsynnott

amigaboy wrote:

...

Another day, another scientific proof/disproof of god.

The Wicker Man

Zita wrote:

I am a firm "believer" that there is no god of any sorts...

I really think the belief in gods or a god stems from people in the long distance past not understadning nature and science and so believeing that, for example, the sun was a god, because it rose everyday and it helped with harvests etc blah blah.

I have never read anything that would make me think that there was a god or gods.

The earth and the solarsystem and the universe are all natural and not created by a deity or super being.

The question of where we go after we die etc.... Just like everything else, we die, our bodies decompose. Our "soul", if you believe in that... I think that our essence lives on, but in the memories of people we knew and not in any o
ther ghosty kind of way.

I dont believe in a "soul" in the biblical sense but i do believe that we have another aspect to our being other than our physical body.I think we have a soul that exists but science has not been able to measure it or quantify it ,but someday science will prove it.Its just beyond science at present much like proving the existence of electricity was beyond stone age man.

the real ramon

you can prove or disprove anything by using logic, and as far this question is concerned go slightly crazy over the issue.

I'd go with the Taoists on this one: your guess is as good as mine, **** happens, sit by the river, don't think and just use intuition

model

Earthhorse wrote:

But your argument is based on the idea that this God cannot exist because he does not think. There are two problems with this as I see it:

1) A thing does need to think in order to exist. Given that this God is all knowing he may have no requirement for thought but that does not mean he does not exist.

2) Knowledge does not prevent sentience. I know what I'm going to have for breakfast tomorrow but that does not mean I cannot think about it. Given a God defined as omniscient his thoughts may be redundant but that is not to say they do not occur.

I agree entriely with the above post. amigaboy, you para-phrased and mocked what Earthhorse said about his table not thinking, yet existing, however it is a valid point and one you seem to have failed to address.

Although I have just read the first page, therefore allow me to apologise if you did indeed take into account and answer the above example.

judomick

i believe god exists in the minds of millions to fill a void left by their insecurity and fear, people use this to help their moral decisions, they use their power of belief to help them achieve moral decisions not necessarily in agreement with right /wrong. physically i think its pretty much proven theres no bearded guy sitting on the clouds:D

so i think god exists as a tool in peoples minds the same as fear or love, others atheists/brights dont require this tool so the notion of god is defunct

Matamoros

If we could move on to the question of the relevance of God or of religious faith in our lives both today and in the future. In my own life when I met a man in whose house I was staying for the night which was adorned with Christian iconography, who asked me what I believed in and me replying slightly meekly that I believed in human beings and their ability to reason, he was quite taken aback and wondered how I could live like that!
There is no God.
Witness deeds done on religions behalf.
Belief in God in most common in poor and less educated parts of the world.
There is no luck or karma or destiny.
One is only holding oneself back by believing in it.
Reason and rational thinking will help all of us free ourselves.
Witness religions' attitude to scientific discovery.
Are you sick, try getting a priest to cure you! Evidence? None.
Want to read rubbish, try the bible. Plato's " Republic " was written many years before it. Try that.
Islam, throwing stones at a pillar? Many dead each year! Please!!!!!
If there is a God and we are " in his image " , he is quite un-evolved!
Oh and did I mention Creationism, game, set and match!

Spectator#1

Amigaboy wrote:

If you are to use it please be sure to reference it back here to the author.

Are you having a laugh?

Spectator#1

Chicago wrote:

This was sent to me today. Don't know how true it is but found it interesting. Thought it might add to the thread.


A University professor at a well known institution of higher learning challenged his students with this question. "Did God create everything that exists?"
A student bravely replied, "Yes he did !"

"God created everything ?" The professor asked.

"Yes sir, he certainly did," the student replied.

The professor answered, "If God created everything; then God created evil.

And, since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are,

then we can assume God is evil."

The student became quiet and did not respond to the professor's hypothetical definition.

The professor, quite pleased with himself, boasted to the students that he had

proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.

Another student raised his hand and said, "May I ask you a question, professor?"

"Of course", replied the professor.

The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist ?"

"What kind of question is this ? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold ?"

The other students snickered at the young man's question.

The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics,

what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat.

Everybody or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy,

and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy.

Absolute zero (-460 F) is the total absence of heat; and all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist.

We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."


The student continued, "Professor, does darkness exist?"

The professor responded, "Of course it does."

The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either.

Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness.

In fact, we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors

and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness.

A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it.

How can you know how dark a certain space is ?

You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct?

Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."

Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?"

Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course, as I have already said.

We see it everyday. It is in the daily examples of man's inhumanity to man.

It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world.

These manifestations are nothing else but evil

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist, sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself.

Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold,

a word that man has created to describe the absence of God.

God did not create evil.

Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart.

It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat,

or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor was silent, the class was silent, outside was silent; for a long long time, the longest time. Finally the professor cleared his throat and spoke, slowly and surely,

"get out of my class you puff."

Tar.Aldarion

That story is nonsense and illogical for several reasons.

Muggy Dev

.....for those who do not believe,no explanation is possible.For those who do believe,no explanation is nessessary.

I find it a bit depressing that in the 21st century the best name we can come up with for our(the believer's) Creator is the generic title of "God".:(

Gotta go.....feel a new thread comin' on.

Tar.Aldarion

It's hard to be more than generic about something that doesn't exist.
Aso many religions do have names for their gods.
God is a word that encommpasses the whole spectrum of possible types of god.

Merrick

Muggy Dev wrote:

I find it a bit depressing that in the 21st century the best name we can come up with for our(the believer's) Creator is the generic title of "God".:(

Hold on, if you want to get technical about this, he (she..? will another debate develop?) was called God long before the 21st century. Not only that, there are many other names used for the same god.

king_of_inismac

This is a bit of a big one to grasp, but if you think it through carefully you will see that it is undeniable by reason alone. Feel free to post a critic of it (I'm certain someone will) I will respond with an explanation on any point or example raised to prove this.

So the only way God could exist as an all knowing being is outside the realms of our Universe - as a non-interactive component to our universe. IF He did interact he would He be part of it and subject to the laws of reason and logic that everything else is.

But if he does exist in this Universe then he may as well not exist as is essentially an imaginative/ non-existent idea.

He can be the creator of the Universe but not interact with it. And so to all intense purposes therefore does not exist.

This argument, I'm afraid has several large holes in it. Your *logic* is human logic. We are just animals living on a minutely small rock in the outer regions of our universe. How can we say whats possible or impossible. How can we truely know our place in the universe?

How do we know that there aren't a billion universes like our own?
How do we know that we aren't the only living creates in the universe?
How do we know that we are the most evolved creatures in our universe?

We are living in the dark people!

He can be the creator of the Universe but not interact with it.

Why the hell not? He's supposed to be God! How do we know what he/she can or cannot do? We are making assumptions about God(!) based on our own logic!

My advice is to sit outside on a starry night. See the vastness of our galaxy, and our universe. See how incredibly insignificant we are.

Maybe God is just a comfort to us, to make us feel more secure/important

Spectator#1

Aquinas' third way deals directly with the existence of God. It goes, in brief, like this.

I. The world is contingent. (Each thing refers back to it's causes)
II. Contingency pre-supposes necessity. (Otherwise infinite regress or a time when there was nothing.)
III.There is a necessary cause. Ie: God.

There are technicalities involved to do with Aquinas' distinction of esse and essence. Since esse is only each beings participation in act of existence and so is finite (or is not responsible for its own existence); there must be a first cause whose essence is existence. This, for him, proves God exists.

Any criticisms?

I thought maybe it's silly because even the concept of a cause that is infinite and primary is just as difficult for us to grasp as the idea of infinite regress, ie. both lead the assertion of infinity.

Also, is the application of inference to prove the existence of something that is supposed to be beyond laws of reason not inadequate? Surely our ideas of reason and causality come from first being in the world and grasping them, such as the principle of non-contradiction etc...?

The Agogo

Why do you doubt me?

don't question, just be.

live in harmony, live in war

that's what you are in control for

IPI

God is the result of the Universe achieving consciousness. God evolved, was not created, and because it was the only sensible model available to Him, He made us evolve, too.

The Universe emerged out of the Big Bang which was the result of the interaction of two other, older universes. Quite possibly, each of these two has a consciousness as well. Possibly they are each their own gods. They may be very different, laws of physics may be different laws. None of that concerns us, because we don't live there.

In short, God knows all because God is all, in the same way that we know our bodies - only better, because we only know what our limbs are up to. God has an awareness of every atom that comprises Him.

I'm still ironing out the details, but that's the jist.


PS I just figured out how to use smilies, so I'm not claiming to know everything just yet.

Pocari Sweat

IPI wrote:

In short, God knows all because God is all, in the same way that we know our bodies - only better, because we only know what our limbs are up to. God has an awareness of every atom that comprises Him.

Mmmm. Not too sure?

Since the dawn of time when people first developed language as a means of expression, we seem to have been impelled to create religions. Historically there have been as many religions as languages and countless thousands have come and gone.

Whether monotheistic single god religions, polytheistic multi-god religions, or religions without a god such as buddhism, communities felt comfort in the idea of a higher force long before the scientific age when many answers about our surroundings were unavailable.

Nowadays religions such as christianity, can't impose the writings of genesis on free thinking minds as science makes a mockery of the older texts of the bible so the church is constantly reviewing stances that are antiquated such as removing limbo from church policy and are even considering the appropriateness of the tools previously used to put "the fear of god" into people such as heaven and hell.

The driving force many religions have in these modern times (besides the comfort many feel in having a belief or being expected to believe in god as part of the package), are the services the churches and mosques offer.

As religious institutions offer services to people and communities for things like christenings, marriages and funerals, it would be hard for members of any religious society to avoid the intervention of the church in the important stages of our lives.

Trying to ensure a person believes in god altogether is a harder task, and if most people feared god, we would not commit a fraction of the indiscretions we carry out in our modern daily lives if we knew a thunder bolt was heading our way.

So all this said, are buddhists nearer the mark without having a god, or are many gods the answer or does the usual formula of a single god answer our questions.

I think if there was a god as depicted, then he is an absent landlord, and you would not want the sort of omnipotency dished out the way the bible describes:

The story of creation had no mention of Dinosaurs. Had dinosaurs been somehow worked into the story and a few other major details amended, then still what kind of story telling condones Adam and Eve's children allowing to breed offspring, committing sins of incest and inbreeding?

With god slaughtering or ordering the slaughter of the first born of the egyptians, what message does that send out about the commandments of not killing?

How can limbo have been condoned that banished the innocent souls of lives cut short into an eternal curse of purgatory, and threatening those who had been christened, to an eternity served in hell if come judgement day they still failed to meet ultimately unspecified targets.

The gospel part of the bible is an altogether better set up when jesus gets involved but the role of god in genesis does not inspire the reader unless crippling fear and gullibility is their penchant.

So if organised religion has historically put a spanner in the works by enacting dogma to print that was going to be a timebomb when people eventually got smart, then they surely sowed the seeds of doubt from the start.

My view is there could be some sort of higher force, but as a monkey type ape that has been a product of evolution and gained the sense of free expression, I might want to, but who am I to work out the mechanics of the universe?

But I still do this, going down the pub and talking ****e.

anthony112

I honestly dont know if this statement is true or false because i dont think it has been proven either way. On the one hand this could be through if saying that stimuli provokes thought, on the other it could be said that stimuli is invented by thought, i suppose we could ask rene decarte but hes dead so we will have to do with our own imagination which in itself gives evidence towards the latter. this also brings into the equation the whole question of spiritually and in particular the sole and whether or not the mind or line of thought is actually the soul or there part of. , i hope im making sence

anthony112

wouldnt something be brought into existence because of the idea itself. nothing is nothing but something is something, maybe the invention was the idea that became reality;)

Pocari Sweat

Spectator#1 wrote:

The professor was silent, the class was silent, outside was silent; for a long long time, the longest time. Finally the professor cleared his throat and spoke, slowly and surely,

"get out of my class you puff."

Cracking tackle. That is the funniest feckin thing I have heard on these boards. Proper stuff spectator, keep them coming.

IPI

The question is 'does God exist', not 'is organised religion up to the task of telling us what God is about', because clearly, over the centuries, it has proved that it isn't. Adam and Eve, dinosaurs, seven days/one universe, whatever you try and make fit is irrelevant to the bigness of the question 'does God exist'.

Okay, Douglas Adams: The Babel fish is so useful, it proves there must be a God. But since the existence of God is a matter of faith, not proof, the Babel fish actually proves that God can't exist ("whereupon God disappears in a puff of logic").

In essence, nothing that has so far been written by man in the name of religious dogma can be used to prove or disprove God's existence. God, if actual, is beyond the scope of that. If non-actual, then it's just so many ways to have a party. Personal observation can lead to a personal conviction. Just as someone who believes he's seen a ghost will have a hard time convincing anyone else that he has, no one who has a faith in God, however profound, will find it easy to convince others.

Add to that the fact that so many religious writings, from the ancient to the modern, from all over the planet, can be read as an extra-terrestrial dis-information campaign (and sometimes much more plausibly so) and you end up having to discount it all entirely if you wish to avoid being seriously sidetracked by which prophet said what about whom and where and when or why.

So let's rule faith and religious zealots out of the equation and find another way to discuss the nature of the all-enveloping intelligence that guides (or not) our existence (or otherwise). As usual, it is impossible to answer a question that is in itself imprecisely asked. So, "is there a God"? Not "have you a God-myth" or "have they a religious viewpoint"? Can someone suggest a way to phrase it less ambiguously, please? Otherwise we'll be here for another two millennia working out what the question should be, and Douglas Adams will be right about yet another thing.

Pocari Sweat

Ain't it just as simple as there was a big bang 14 billion years ago, planet earth formed 4 billion years ago, then micro-orgs, to fish, monkeys, man and as we have been around for a fraction of a second in the 24 hour clock since the big bang we are going to disappear in another fraction of a second for other forms of life to take our place such as flying spiders or some hardier evolutionary beast, until extinction of all species past and present to the last few hours of the clock and then implosion back into starting new big bang and so on.

Why are we so far up our own bums when we only represent an atom on a grain of sand in a beach of sand of the overall planets in the universe.

Surely god only represents a fleeting thought in the concience of a passing species due for extinction having lasted just for a tiny amount of time compared to the longer established surviving species of pre-historic times and to be outlived by many insects that have long been here before.

Our universal epitaph could read as sub 1 second drunken monkeys who wrecked their planet in no time at all.

MeditationMom

Beloveds, all of you
Rest your minds, trying to figure out who God is, or is not. Be still, really be still, and know.
This quote, by Ramanah Maharshi, may help:
"No one doubts that he exists, though you may doubt the existence of God. If you find out the truth about yourself and discover your own source, this is all that is required."
Or don't rest your minds, really wear yourself out, and when your search has left no stone unturned and "you" are completely spent, God can enter.
Good Luck

Briony Noh

Matamoros wrote:

There is no God.
Witness deeds done on religions behalf.

Confusing the existence of a higher being with the morons that worship Him. Not admissable.

Belief in God in most common in poor and less educated parts of the world.

The greater the education, the greater the cynicism. Not evidence. Move on.

There is no luck or karma or destiny.

Because you say so? Or do you have something that backs up this fantastic theory.

Reason and rational thinking will help all of us free ourselves.

Arbeit macht frei?

Witness religions' attitude to scientific discovery.
Are you sick, try getting a priest to cure you! Evidence? None.

Have you studied any of the authoratative investigations into the use of prayer in orthodox healing procedures? They're quite enlightening.

Want to read rubbish, try the bible.

Ah, yes, that book with all the violence and mayhem that has spawned more TV and movie spin-offs than Big Brother. Rubbish. Uh-huh.

Plato's " Republic " was written many years before it. Try that.

I have. I agree. It's pretty good, too. Still no sign of the DVD, though.

Islam, throwing stones at a pillar? Many dead each year! Please!!!!!

Quoting myself, perhaps, but really. Nobody here wants to defend morons who use religion as an alternative to rational thinking.

If there is a God and we are " in his image " , he is quite un-evolved!

I hate to be obvious, but dismissing the bible and then using it to support your argumnents is a little - um - naughty.

Oh and did I mention Creationism, game, set and match!

What game were we playing again?

FionnMatthew

IPI wrote:

God is the result of the Universe achieving consciousness. God evolved, was not created, and because it was the only sensible model available to Him, He made us evolve, too.

The Universe emerged out of the Big Bang which was the result of the interaction of two other, older universes. Quite possibly, each of these two has a consciousness as well. Possibly they are each their own gods. They may be very different, laws of physics may be different laws. None of that concerns us, because we don't live there.

In short, God knows all because God is all, in the same way that we know our bodies - only better, because we only know what our limbs are up to. God has an awareness of every atom that comprises Him.

I'm still ironing out the details, but that's the jist.


PS I just figured out how to use smilies, so I'm not claiming to know everything just yet.

And for more ideas on pantheism, read Baruch Spinoza.
You realise that the pantheism you advocate might have got you burned as a heretic by any religious body during the height of the religious hegemony?

IPI

FionnMatthew wrote:

You realise that the pantheism you advocate might have got you burned as a heretic by any religious body during the height of the religious hegemony?

I have no such burning ambition. I recant forthwith. (Religious Hegemony - they played the Temple Bar Music Centre, right?)

Thank you for the recommendations. I'm an extremely slow reader, so I hope the books aren't too thick. Maybe there's a Reader's Digest version:) .

Pocari Sweat

Well in a nut shell to say some sort of god or gods don't exist, you would then have to look seriously at where all the atoms come from and the space they are in.

I know just cos we have a load of atoms and space, that people think right there is some god or other.

But to try and explain who this so called dude is, in the form of a bible, counting out there could be a few gods, is a bit suggestable, just like saying there are no gods for sure.

Just cos we have perspectives, does not get us anywhere, especially when one camp argues the other is talking ****e.

What do other creatures think?

The average dog for example.

Bonzo sits there thinking, who are my masters, providing me with a home and the finest food served regularly, taking me out on walks and at the same time issuing the laws of right and wrong. They must be gods.

And the average cat.

Felix sprawls on the couch pondering, who are these lot, providing me with a home, serving me the finest foods as my whim takes me, letting me roam free to come and go as I want even though they often question my mystical ways. I must be a god.

Laplandman

That is a useful contribution Pocari, although I must admit that I have no idea what you are talking about.

I know just cos we have a load of atoms and space, that people think right there is some god or other

.
Yes, atoms. Lots of them, atoms - one, two, three, four atoms, five atoms. Atoms. Why?

IPI

Laplandman wrote:

That is a useful contribution Pocari, although I must admit that I have no idea what you are talking about.

You got to admit he's right about the cat, though.

The origin of the atom may still turn out to be a purely logical effect from a completely unknown cause. In fact, it must be. Even my patchy understanding of quantum physics allows for speculation about that.

As a slight aside before coming back on track, following FionnMatthew's advice, I've read a little on Spinoza now and am beginning to wonder what he and Descartes, in their era and their context, understood by the word 'substance' and how broad a definition it might become upon further investigation. Still reading. But is an idea enough to provide its own sustance? Is, perhaps, emptiness a state of existence? Recurring timelessness the initiator of its own pulse, its own first wave, its own rhythm? How can timelessness have an extent? I don't know, I have no notion how the 26-or-so other dimensions all inter-react. And if 26 dimensions have been deduced, why should that number not later be found to be 126 or 1126 or infinite?

And where did they all come from, how did they start and, possibly the biggest one I can think of, which one or ones came first?

But for some, there's always going to be another question about God's participation in that initial cause. Even God must be or have been governed by some laws of physics, even if it was only those that brought Him into existence in the first place.

Yes, I think there's a certain unspecified something beyond us, I feel this to be so, I believe I have experienced and witnessed things that mean this must be so, but to define it is like trying to think of a simile that isn't also, at some deep level, a metaphore. In other words, it's like nothing, because it's far more than everything we already know.

Does God care about us in the way biblical authors and religious writers would have us believe? I doubt it. I doubt if there's much that's been written so far that comes close to what millions of people on this planet and billions on others feel about their place in existence or how God feels about us. Maybe, we're a fingernail to Him and he cares for us like the vainest woman to ever open a varnish jar; or the rudest navvy to ever leave his work gloves in the car, who knows?

As for these Writings of Man with the spiritual slant, these give us our laws and rules and guide us gently towards being good to each other, because we're the kind of destructive, self-harming, argumentative, immoral creatures that evolution probably insists on generating in the same way that if you leave a block of chees out on the counter, eventually it will go rotten. Entropy is the only direction.

But I don't think we should kid ourselves, or that people arguing against us should insult us by insisting that we do kid ourselves: They aren't the literal Words of God. The moral guidance written there is surely derived from the common human sense, if that isn't an oxymoron, by some people who felt it was time we were scared into doing the right thing. The entire book, and several others besides, could probably be summed up quite nicely, if we weren't all so damned wayward. In fact, I believe it already is summed up in the eleventh commandment: "Be kind to each other and party on."

Pocari Sweat

Whatever the combination, if a god or gods exist, or if being at oneness with the universe without needing gods like in buddhism, are the various options to go for rather than saying nothing higher exists, but at the same time if all the religious books like the Tora, Koran, Bible etc, are agreed by most to be fiction by different cultures at some time or other in the past, then most of this fiction like heaven, hell, purgatory, limbo, satan, demons, angels, saints, ghosts, miracles and so on, are more to do with antiquated superstitions that were a product of our ignorance in the darker ages of mankind where fear / ignorance / superstition etc, ruled the roost and nothing fruitful was sought to achieve a more sensible approach in working out the big questions.

So in those darker times, to rustle up some sort of god or other and give them various names and flavours, was a trend of the same fear and ignorance cycle. This puts the idea of a god as a highly suspect invention which people of ancient times wanted in order to make their lack of understanding of their wider surroundings and their arrival in these surroundings a simpler thing to use to get their heads around unanswerable issues.

Myths and legends are the stuff of bibles and gods and fear and ignorance.

I would not disagree that they are romantic, mystical, spiritual and thought provoking notions that start from an early age with christmas and santa clause and end up later in life as being tied in with useful services that the religious bodies offer like, weddings, funerals etc, but when you look at the workings of most religious institutions nowadays just as in the past, they are and always were, corrupt money making machines, using unquestionable and ritualistic lies to govern and subdue lesser educated mortals to get both their cash off them whilst also putting the fear of god into them to avoid any questions being raised.

Nowadays, most of even the regular attendees of churches, don't pay a blind bit of attention to the better teachings of the good books that different religions have, because it does not stop most people giving false witness or telling porkies on a daily basis for whatever reason to get them through their busy lives, telling the truth 100% of the time would be impossible for over 99% of people, although this is a basic requirement of religious teachings, although people can work out that religious scripture is often made up of various concoctions turned into fact, later found out to be bunkum.

It would be nice if all religions just cut short their crap and confirmed that you should just be kind to each other and party on, but most never did, and many today still don't encourage partying and having a good time either.

In the extreme, even today, many cultures invent gods, demand their flocks lead a sobre and pious life and lead people to believe in questionable terms that if anthing written in so called sacred texts are questioned then torture, death and damnation is surely going to be dished out to those within that religion or anyone outside it that dares to mock their invented gods.