Does God exist? the definitive answer.

Catsmokinpot

IPI wrote:

God is the result of the Universe achieving consciousness. God evolved, was not created, and because it was the only sensible model available to Him, He made us evolve, too.

The Universe emerged out of the Big Bang which was the result of the interaction of two other, older universes. Quite possibly, each of these two has a consciousness as well. Possibly they are each their own gods. They may be very different, laws of physics may be different laws. None of that concerns us, because we don't live there.

In short, God knows all because God is all, in the same way that we know our bodies - only better, because we only know what our limbs are up to. God has an awareness of every atom that comprises Him.

I'm still ironing out the details, but that's the jist.


PS I just figured out how to use smilies, so I'm not claiming to know everything just yet.

that's the same theory i have little more developed than mine as to how the infinite variety of the universe is formed (through the interaction of two older universes)

i kind of imagined each separate universe as sort of a line

one side of the line/barrier there is the matter/information/consciousness in the universe in its simplest form, i.e. hydrogen

stars are created by hydrogen.

suns processes convert hydrogen into other atoms

black holes suck in all matter from the universe from Side A

(black holes represented by gap in the line)


Side A

---

I I

---

Side B



these atoms are stretched and re formed into hydrogen and spat back out into another infinite chamber containing the universe (Side

and there's an infinite amount of these like an infinitely huge box full of tins of sardines each tin is a universe, all with different contents.

the mixing of old universes is a great concept.

i think that could god is the driving force behind all of this, the consciousness that we are all part of, i don't think its a person. i think some religions say god is a person because the idea of a force and not a person having control of us or guiding us is weird to them, so they give it a face. but it is there, and were made of it, its inside us, its all around us, its who we are.

Pocari Sweat

I found 50 pence once.

Catsmokinpot

Pocari Sweat wrote:

I found 50 pence once.

hey! that was my 50 pence ya thieving ruffian!

Pocari Sweat

Finders keepers, losers weepers.

IPI

Catsmokinpot: You see universes separated by a line, a great matrix of boxes, but I think it's as undefined as the line between sea and air (bearing in mind that the sea needs oxygen from the air and the air traps moisture from the seas), and the intersections extend throughout the known dimensions of space, time and beyond. The universes in question could be just as different from each other as chalk is from a thermo-dynamic neutron reactor, and each will normally be held apart from the other by differential pressures or densities or their equivalents.

This doesn't answer the question of where the first universe ever came from and for that, I like to get a little poetical because there's no other way to explain it than to question the fundamental nature of time and explore the possibility that time only exists because something notices it. Perhaps, then, a universe can't exist until it's noticed. And if it's only noticed by itself, it must have an intelligence. Does that make it its own God as it explodes into existence in a fury of random chance?

But I have an even more poetical alternative theory to that, which I'm quite fond of, though I have to rationalise one single, simple aspect of it that has been eluding me before I can be completely happy with it.

My ideas are purely to satisfy me as to how I can make sense of the universe as I observe it. It provides me with a completely plausible and substancial God within the purely practical and pragmatic panaplui of space and time and has allowed me to construct a model for the realities of time travel and the causes of most effects and observations which are currently considered paranormal. But in the end, it's a personal model which, while it can never be proved or disproved, is probably only valid to me and my imagination.

And the fifty pence is a part of each of your realities, which means it belongs to both of you equally, but since it's hardly worth anything anymore, I wouldn't get upset over it.

Villain

When the Pope asks God where he was when millions of Jews were been killed I think it begs the very question the op used.

Briony Noh

There you go mixing up God and Religion again. If we could all just agree to discuss one thing at a time ...

Villain

Nope I'm not mixing anything up, thats exactly what he said, he asked where "God was" not where the Catholic church was!!!

Briony Noh

So you believe there is a level on which a human can converse with a conceptual entity. And furthermore that the entity that provides the framework for our existence would have an opinion about how violently evil some of us choose to be to some others.

Or are you thinking of the biblical God who was created by man to keep other men honest? Because I don't think even the Pope can get answers from a fictional character.

Villain

Well that depends on what you believe, how do you know the Biblical God was created by man? or thats its a conceptual entity.

Perhaps its neither?

Briony Noh

I know the bible was written by men and I understand the temptation most men give in to: to embellish their tales ("I only had one drink", "I spent the whole day putting up two shelves", "God appeared to me and said I should nip out and spread The Word"). I have a personal conviction that the various old-testament versions of God (there appear to be two or three distinct characters with different levels of warlike vengefulness, until the New Testament when it's all love your this and honour thy that) demonstrate an editorial inconsistency from book to book. While they all have an underlying theme of unconditional obedience, which suggests (to me) a cultural rather than godlike requirement, the needs of the prevalent culture at various times appear to make different demands on the God of the literature, and reciprocally that God makes different demands on His Chosen. This is my view of the biblical God, but I can't prove it, only deduce it. I suppose they'd call that 'faith'.

Now, the real God is, as far as I can figure it out, something that doesn't give a toss who begots whom and what's next on the smiting list, but is something we are all connected with every day of our lives, the essence of ourselves and each other. As hippies once proclaimed, "We are stardust!" and God is in all the stars.

If you want to believe that there's a God in a palace on a throne having chats with Popes and philosophers, though, then I suppose I have no right to take that away from you. Quite possibly, this works for you, but sadly it doesn't for me. Actually, not sadly. Because in that view is implicit a God that actively permitted the slaughter of six million of his most devoted followers. In mine, that slaughter was human in origin and dispatch and, having allowed us free will, why should God interfere. In mine, within that vast, incomprehensible figure of six million there is a smaller, noble figure numbering the minor triumphs and personal miracles that stopped it becoming seven million or eight or ten or twelve.

Villain

Well actually I'm not sure what I believe, I had always believed that God did excist but that he was a cruel bastard, but lately I'm more enclined to think he doesn't excist at all, it's simply something humans have created to try and use fear as a method to prevent sin.

Briony Noh

I've come to believe that as he became more aware of his surroundings, man saw nature and science and caught his first glimpse of God. Then leaders, rulers and guardians of the public morals got involved and crassly, imperiously humanised Him, set rules for our behaviour towards Him that suited themselves and perverted Him to man's will. But there is no Him. There is no God like that. God, if there is a definition it really ought to include phrases like "like nothing you can imagine" because it doesn't come from imagination, it comes from experience and a recognition that God is in surprising coincidences and in the warmth of moment of content. We shouldn't dread God or find fault with his handling of our history, as men and presidents and kings and priests and popes might wish we would. That fault lies solely and completely in the hearts and deeds of men.

Pocari Sweat

I think it is only fair in these modern times to own up to man's mistakes and separate god from organised religion especially its poor history. We know most religious texts are inconsistent, but we don't know a jot about god for sure. You could even try to separate the church from religion but thats not going to happen, it is just a money making machine, the both go together.

Separate the church from god and you would be free to think more optimistic thoughts about what a proper god could be like, without the shackles.

Briony Nohs what she is talking about, and it would be refreshing if more people did. The dogmatic types including the religious lobby and the atheists are so touchy, you are likely to get removed from their forums if you ask to many questions.

McGinty

Maybe God does not 'think' in the way that we do, maybe the God 'all knowing' bit has nothing to do with our (human perception) of knowing/knowledge. I see it that we aquire knowledge through our senses, even though many argue otherwise, but there is apart of us that is aware of those thoughts, senses, feeling, etc, maybe that is to do with God, maybe God is awareness, not thinking.

Pocari Sweat

I think, unlike in the christain forum, the concept of god is a conundrum that is a bit of a wet fart and not worth bothering with too much.

withneill

God is Dog backwards

18AD

God already knows he doesn't exist.

Laplandman

God already knows he doesn't exist.

how?

18AD

Laplandman wrote:

how?

I was joking, to be honest.

But I'll give it a shot anyhow:

Answer: Because I have faith in the idea that he knows he doesn't exist. I don't have to prove anything when I have faith. :rolleyes:
Or: If we have a definition of "god". The real god will know that the fake definition of god we have created isn't real. Like saying, "the real god knows the fake god doesn't exist", just they both have the same name, hence the confusion.

That's all I can think of now, hopefiully I've worded that correctly.

FromFarEast

It necessarily depends on the definition of existence.

God doesn't exist in the physical world.
To prove his existence is typically a probatio diabolica, so it may be "proper" (not absolutely true) to say that he doesn't.
But in the world as representation, he does exist.
That is, when people think of him, he appears in their notions.
In this sense, ironically he exists even in representation of the atheists claiming that he doesn't.

Existence can be defined not only by materialism but also by idealism.


sorry for my broken English...

muesli_offire

God is pretty tall.

But not as tall as Macgyver.

UU

Well such a question has no definate answer so it seems rather pointless to continue debating over an infinite question. Besides, I got this extract from "The Power Of Now" by Eckhart Tolle, which sums up what he views "God" as in realistic terms IMO. God is one of those things which means something different to different people. I felt Tolle's view was the closest I've gotten in years though.

Q. When you say Being, are you talking about God? If you are, then why don't you say it?

A. The word God has become empty of meaning through thousands of years of misuse. I use it sometimes, but I do so sparingly. By misuse, I mean people who have never even glimpsed the realm of the sacred, the infinite vastness behind that word, use it with great conviction, as if they knew what it is that they are talking about. Or they argue against it, as if they knew what it is that they are denying. This misuse gives rise to absurd beliefs, assertions and egoic delusions, such as "My or our God is the only true God, and your God is false," or Nietzsche's famous statement "God is dead."

The word God has become a closed concept. The moment the word is uttered, a mental image is created, no longer, perhaps of an old man with a white beard*, but still a mental representation of someone or something outside you, and, yes, almost inevitably a male someone or something.

Neither God nor Being nor any other word can define or explain the ineffable reality behind the word, so the only important question is whether the word is a help or a hindrance in enabling you to experience 'That' towards which it points. Does it point beyond itself to that transcendental reality, or does it lend itself too easily to becoming no more than an idea in your head that you believe in, a mental idol?

The word Being explains nothing, but nor does God. Being, however, has the advantage that it is an open concept. It does not reduce the infinite invisible to a finite entity. It is impossible to form a mental image of it. Nobody can claim exclusive possession of Being. It is your very essence, and it is immediately accessible to you as the feeling of your own presence, the realisation I am that is prior to 'I am this' or 'I am that'. So it is only a small step from the word Being to the experience of Being.

*That image is actually a portrayal of the Pagan Roman god Zeus, did you know.

bassist

Please ignore the last four threads, it took me ages to write this and I kept fecking it up...
This is what I really wanted to say....

As far as Im concerned God(as we know that word) does not exist, here's my opinion why:

Billions of years ago there was a cosmic event that started our Galaxy. There are many theories as to what this event was, I believe it was the colliding of two stars. A massive explosion occurred and our solar system was created from trillions of different particles being flung out into Space. The planet's of our solar system(which where created from these particles) where sucked into the gravitational pull of the Sun(the centre of this cosmic explosion) and where set on a course of rotation around it.

Earth at this time was a planet of rock and different gas’s formed around it creating an atmosphere. These gas’s reacted with the planet surface creating an ice formation over the planet. After millions of years this ice melted, creating a planet of water, which the atmosphere held onto the planet(like it still is today).

At some point in time a massive asteroid hit the Earth and changed its position in the solar system pushing it closer to the Sun. Another result of this asteroid was the creation of our moon(which has been proven to of broken of from the Earth). The moon settled into the gravitational pull of the Earth and since has orbited the Earth. As a result the moons own gravitational pull began to control the flow of the water on the Earths surface. This water began evaporating and simultaneously life on Earth exploded in the form of Bacteria. The water started evaporating and for the first time land as we know it was formed(the first land mass to appear was what we know as Australia). The water kept evaporating and the undivided continents formed.

Sorry if this is going on a bit, but, it will all become relevant later....

As I said life exploded on earth in the form of bacteria. This bacteria started a cycle of evolution which billions of years later had resulted in animals which we call Dinosaurs along with millions of other species of animals such as apes, reptiles, birds, insects, fe-lines etc etc etc...

These animals kept evolving at different rates and speeds until an ice age occurred and froze every living organism on Earth(the cause of this ice age is still being debated today, but most educated minds on the subject all agree that it did happened). Millions of years passed and the ice melted. Animals again began to roam the Earth only now one species had evolved at an astounding rated. The ape species had evolved into a new "highbreed" species who had began to use their brain like no other animal in the history of our planet. (Im not too sure but as far as I know the term used by arceologists to describe these animals is "homo-erctous", our earliest living ancestor's). Homo-erectous started grouping together in pacts and began hunting using tools and for the first time their brains to catch food in the way of other less evolved animals. The meat, which was now available for the first time to homo-erectous, gave him vital vitamins and minerals, which gave his evolution rate a jump-start and eventually evolved his brain to such an extent
that he was the soon to become the dominant species on the planet.

Fastforward tens of thousands of years and homo-erectous had evolved into homo-saptions. His brain had evolved to the point where thought and conclusion was part of everyday life. He had mastered the art of speech and could communicate with one another. The ability to ask questions and the ability to answer them where now just beginning to be used. The Earth as it is today had certain aspects to it which he could not understand(volcanic eruptions, tsunami’s, rain, the seasons, earthquakes, tornado's, hurricanes etc...). He attempted to use his new all powerful tool, his brain, to answer why these events occurred. But as all powerfull as his brain was he could not understand what caused these events. Therefore he began to metaphor what these events where caused by and this is where he came up with the idea of THE HIGHER POWER!

The Higher Power was interpreted understandably as the "God" of Fire, Water, Earth and Wind. This gave birth to what we know as the "Pagan Religions". The act of worship came form the notion of trying to please the "Gods" so that great tragedies would be avoided and the now human race could survive.

As we evolved men and women again began to philosophy as to the nature of this new higher power. We began as we learned more of the Earth, to say that "god" was a being and that "god" was like us. This I believe was the birth of religion, as we know it today. The interpretation of the higher power was so we can understand what we cannot conceive. The human mind in my opinion created the idea of "God" so we can have an answer to the questions we cant answer.

We (the human race) as far as im concerned, have evolved past our physical abilities. Our brains have gone so far past our bodies that we have now accepted "God" as a conceivable answer to why we are here. We have told ourselves over thousands of years that there must be a reason to why we're here.

My opinion, there is no reason!

I understand that alot of people will have contradicting ideas and I would be more then happy to discuss them...

Jaysus that’s not bad for someone who failed his leaving...

simu

bassist wrote:

Please ignore the last four threads, it took me ages to write this and I kept fecking it up...
This is what I really wanted to say....

other posts deleted

-simu (forum mod)

Jackie laughlin

Those who equate God with being or any other variant of pantheism are evading the question or rather moving to a quite different question. The God in question is self aware and "personal" in the sense of distinct and separate. Now, it's a wonderful question. (Yes, I'm being serious and literal.)

However, neither the question nor the answer - were it to be reached - would have any effect on how we live.

muesli_offire

Those who equate God with being or any other variant of pantheism are evading the question or rather moving to a quite different question. The God in question is self aware and "personal" in the sense of distinct and separate.

Unless you go with an evolutionary pantheism (a la Max Scheler, or [arguably] Hegel): God 'coming-to-be'.

Jackie laughlin

Muesli,
This is new to me. Would you oblige by expanding a little and saving me a deal of reading. (I've read Hegel but a long time ago.)

For me my second comment was the more important.

Playboy

bassist wrote:

Please ignore the last four threads, it took me ages to write this and I kept fecking it up...
This is what I really wanted to say....

As far as Im concerned God(as we know that word) does not exist, here's my opinion why:

Billions of years ago there was a cosmic event that started our Galaxy. There are many theories as to what this event was, I believe it was the colliding of two stars. A massive explosion occurred and our solar system was created from trillions of different particles being flung out into Space. The planet's of our solar system(which where created from these particles) where sucked into the gravitational pull of the Sun(the centre of this cosmic explosion) and where set on a course of rotation around it.

Earth at this time was a planet of rock and different gas’s formed around it creating an atmosphere. These gas’s reacted with the planet surface creating an ice formation over the planet. After millions of years this ice melted, creating a planet of water, which the atmosphere held onto the planet(like it still is today).

At some point in time a massive asteroid hit the Earth and changed its position in the solar system pushing it closer to the Sun. Another result of this asteroid was the creation of our moon(which has been proven to of broken of from the Earth). The moon settled into the gravitational pull of the Earth and since has orbited the Earth. As a result the moons own gravitational pull began to control the flow of the water on the Earths surface. This water began evaporating and simultaneously life on Earth exploded in the form of Bacteria. The water started evaporating and for the first time land as we know it was formed(the first land mass to appear was what we know as Australia). The water kept evaporating and the undivided continents formed.

Sorry if this is going on a bit, but, it will all become relevant later....

As I said life exploded on earth in the form of bacteria. This bacteria started a cycle of evolution which billions of years later had resulted in animals which we call Dinosaurs along with millions of other species of animals such as apes, reptiles, birds, insects, fe-lines etc etc etc...

These animals kept evolving at different rates and speeds until an ice age occurred and froze every living organism on Earth(the cause of this ice age is still being debated today, but most educated minds on the subject all agree that it did happened). Millions of years passed and the ice melted. Animals again began to roam the Earth only now one species had evolved at an astounding rated. The ape species had evolved into a new "highbreed" species who had began to use their brain like no other animal in the history of our planet. (Im not too sure but as far as I know the term used by arceologists to describe these animals is "homo-erctous", our earliest living ancestor's). Homo-erectous started grouping together in pacts and began hunting using tools and for the first time their brains to catch food in the way of other less evolved animals. The meat, which was now available for the first time to homo-erectous, gave him vital vitamins and minerals, which gave his evolution rate a jump-start and eventually evolved his brain to such an extent
that he was the soon to become the dominant species on the planet.

Fastforward tens of thousands of years and homo-erectous had evolved into homo-saptions. His brain had evolved to the point where thought and conclusion was part of everyday life. He had mastered the art of speech and could communicate with one another. The ability to ask questions and the ability to answer them where now just beginning to be used. The Earth as it is today had certain aspects to it which he could not understand(volcanic eruptions, tsunami’s, rain, the seasons, earthquakes, tornado's, hurricanes etc...). He attempted to use his new all powerful tool, his brain, to answer why these events occurred. But as all powerfull as his brain was he could not understand what caused these events. Therefore he began to metaphor what these events where caused by and this is where he came up with the idea of THE HIGHER POWER!

The Higher Power was interpreted understandably as the "God" of Fire, Water, Earth and Wind. This gave birth to what we know as the "Pagan Religions". The act of worship came form the notion of trying to please the "Gods" so that great tragedies would be avoided and the now human race could survive.

As we evolved men and women again began to philosophy as to the nature of this new higher power. We began as we learned more of the Earth, to say that "god" was a being and that "god" was like us. This I believe was the birth of religion, as we know it today. The interpretation of the higher power was so we can understand what we cannot conceive. The human mind in my opinion created the idea of "God" so we can have an answer to the questions we cant answer.

We (the human race) as far as im concerned, have evolved past our physical abilities. Our brains have gone so far past our bodies that we have now accepted "God" as a conceivable answer to why we are here. We have told ourselves over thousands of years that there must be a reason to why we're here.

My opinion, there is no reason!

I understand that alot of people will have contradicting ideas and I would be more then happy to discuss them...

Jaysus that’s not bad for someone who failed his leaving...

Your post has a major flaw. Who created the two stars that collided causing the cosmic event that eventually led to evolution. What is your ultimate cause of the universe? Who dictated the laws of the universe and put the big bang into action etc. ?

Jackie laughlin

Playboy,
Suppose you get a definitive answer to this question, what difference will it make?