Patriot act *BAM* Bush *BAM*

Hobbes

Appears Bush has just done something horrible. Spying on his own people. Of course I love the comments of didn't break the law, they just rewrote it so its legal. :v:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4536310.stm

Seems there is fallout from this and the Patriot act changes have just been blocked! :eek:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4536418.stm

Manic Moran

The Patriot Act is an example of politicians at their worst.

"Ah! Something terrible has happened! (Ex: Terrorist attack, random shooting, bus crash, riot after pub closing hours...) We must do something so that the citizens don't think we're just sitting on our arses!"
"This is something! It looks like we're being decisive and taking action! We will be voted in again next year! Hooray!"
"Excellent idea. We'll do this"

The amount of times I've seen knee-jerk reactions to things is depressing. And all governments seem susceptible to it.

The odd thing is, I don't know too many people who support the Patriot Act. The left hate it because the Bush camp came up with it. The right hate it because of the intrusions on civil liberties.

NTM

Hobbes

Manic Moran wrote:

The left hate it because the Bush camp came up with it. The right hate it because of the intrusions on civil liberties.

Because liberals would never ever care about other peoples civil liberties? :rolleyes:

Laguna

The essence of the 'patriot' act always existed in America, now it's just out in the open and 'legal'.

Manic Moran

Hobbes wrote:

Because liberals would never ever care about other peoples civil liberties? :rolleyes:

I'm sure they would.

But by and large, the vocal ones don't get past the 'It's a Bush idea' stage to start thinking about civil liberties. "Bush's crowd thought of it" seems more than enough for the likes of Pelosi and Boxer.

Partisan politics in the US is beyond all rational bounds, on both sides.

NTM

Hobbes

Manic Moran wrote:

I'm sure they would.

But by and large, the vocal ones don't get past the 'It's a Bush idea' stage to start thinking about civil liberties.

Partisan politics in the US is beyond all rational bounds, on both sides.

NTM

If your talking about politicians prehaps. Bush is a fuking idiot, no doubt there but you would find the exact same people who were complaining if Democrats were to do the exact same thing (and some of them did get slapped for voting for it).

To quote Clooney.
“I don’t know at what time in history liberals have stood on the wrong side of social issues. We thought that blacks should sit at the front of the bus, that women should be allowed to vote, that maybe McCarthy was a jerk, that Vietnam was wrong and strip-bombing Cambodia was probably stupid. We’ve been on the right side of all these issues.”

Manic Moran

The Clooney quote is a matter of perspective.

I might advocate that liberals are on the wrong side of some social issues such as firearms legislation. Was Vietnam actually wrong? (The concept, not the execution) Again, might depend on who you talk to. Sure, I think they were/are right on some issues as well.

The concept of an 'in between' doesn't seem to have registered with many Americans. Indeed, they say that American elections are decided only by about 10-20%of the voting population. All the rest are just straight ticket voters.

NTM

starn

Hobbes wrote:

Bush is a fuking idiot[/i]

Bush is no Idiot. Idiots dont serve two terms as governer, capture 9 out of 13Super Tuesday states, and win two presidential elections. Bush is bye and large a ideal Reublican candidate, and has o problem playing dirty He supports business, is pro NRA, Pro Millitary, has little or no intrest in Foreign relations. He also happens to be a "allegadly" practing christian and Pro Life. Quite possibly the two most controversial characteristics of a US President. He got away with robbing a state presidential vote, practically reinvented himself and his hite house after 9/11.

Dont get me wrong I have no time for George W. I think he has been able to succesfully play on idiot card for far to long to many of his oppenents have underestimated him.

This is just another reason erosin of the american constitution and highlights once again the flaws in a patriarch lead goverment. Go bak to sleep america YOUR GOVERMENT IS IN CONTROL. I suspect the the republican party are looking to see how bush's reasoning behind this go with the plebicites. But I think the first republican to come out against this will be making a play for super Tuesday. Surly this MUST lead to a presidential Impeachment

dahamsta

Sorry, but Bush /is/ a idiot, you only have to listen to him speak sans script to see that, or research his utter incompetence in business.

The man never won anything in his life, it was all handed to him on a silver platter, including the aforementioned elections.

His /handlers/ won those elections for him. All he did was read from a script.

The man is an utter moron.

adam

starn

The man hold's two degrees one from Yale the other from Harvard. Are you saying that they will hand out degrees to anyone. I'am sure there are enough bitter failed undergrads w=ho would dipute this. As for bussiness yes Arbusto Energy bombed but that was more to do with the energy crisis in 79, an yes he should of been busted for inside trading over Harken. But almost every other old money CEO coud be accused of this. He has been smart enough to surrond himself with the right mix of counsel and fall guys. He made 14 million selling the Texas rangers ffs. You and I might not lie or agree with Bush's policys but he is no fool, regarless of how many books Micheal Moore sells

Hobbes

starn wrote:

The man hold's two degrees one from Yale the other from Harvard.

While the MBA has merit (and one wonders how he got it considering anything he has run tends to screw up) the other was a BA in History.

His family being skull and bones members probably helped him get into Yale and membership into that as well.

As for bussiness yes Arbusto Energy bombed but that was more to do with the energy crisis in 79, an yes he should of been busted for inside trading over Harken. But almost every other old money CEO coud be accused of this.

You know if your going to be the president of one of the most powerful countries in the world you think they would go for someone who does not have a questionable past?

He has been smart enough to surrond himself with the right mix of counsel and fall guys.

Like the bin laden family for example.

He made 14 million selling the Texas rangers ffs.

Which is not bad considering his investment was due to insider trading which as you pointed out is illegal.

He has a very contridictory history.

starn

I'am not deniging he has a questionable past, and is probably not the best person to be running a country just look at the federal deficit. But he is not the utter moron he is painted as. PEOPLE UNDERESTIMATE BUSH FAR TO MUCH.Dont get me wrong I have no time for the man and little or no respect the man. His education and health care policys are a joke. But if I had a vote and was a starnch republican. Yes I would vote for him. He is a Ideal reoublican candidate.

MrPudding

starn wrote:

PEOPLE UNDERESTIMATE BUSH FAR TO MUCH.

I think you will find people misunderestimate him.

And he is an idiot. You only have to look at his performance in press conferences that have not been scripted.

MrP

Hobbes

Which probably does not say very much for the republican party if that is the case tbh. I'd say much of his presidential positioning has more to do with Rove then what he could think up.

starn

MrPudding wrote:

I think you will find people misunderestimate him.

And he is an idiot. You only have to look at his performance in press conferences that have not been scripted.

MrP

So he's not a public speaker. But I agree that in this case Rove is probably the power behind the throne But bush is no puppet

bonkey

Hobbes wrote:

Appears Bush has just done something horrible. Spying on his own people. Of course I love the comments of didn't break the law, they just rewrote it so its legal. :v:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4536310.stm

Seems there is fallout from this and the Patriot act changes have just been blocked! :eek:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4536418.stm

On a "plus" note, the House has just tacked the opening of the ANWR oil onto the Defense Budget, and it looks set to go to the Senate.

Yippee.

Oh yeah...Gonzales is now claiming the 2001 Afghanistan war resolution is what makes Bush's "spying on his own people" legal. Class.

kurisu

did anyone hear his most recent speech he asked americans to ignore "defeatists" last time i heard someone use that word it was followed by the words 'november criminals' and the second world war .

Manic Moran

Hobbes wrote:

Which probably does not say very much for the republican party if that is the case tbh.

I am in some indecision as to the merits of the 'primary' system of the US elections. You have Republicans voting for the most Republican Republican to go up against the most Democratic Democrat that a bunch of Democrats selected.

No wonder there's so much of a division. You do occasionally get some people in primaries who try to think one stage ahead "OK, this guy may not be a perfect Republican, but he has a chance of beating the Democrat candidate", but I'm not convinced they are in the majority.

'defeatists' may not be such an inappropriate word, given the circumstances. The US can only be defeated if it believes it is. The same 'lack of moral fibre' that resulted in losing Vietnam, running away from Lebanon and Somalia.

NTM

starn

I think the whole situation in both the US and the Uk is a complete joke. You have two parties one right wing and one [alleged] Left wing. The two tiered system is a utter shambles. Who would you sooner vote for the puppet on the left or the puppet on the right

Hobbes

Just watching the US news. Not since Kathrina mess have I seen a reporter actually act like one.

Bush says he will go ahead and spy on whoever he likes, but Congress may rule against it.

What is funny is Bush is saying that those people who told on him should go to jail.

bonkey

Hobbes wrote:

Bush says he will go ahead and spy on whoever he likes, but Congress may rule against it.

What is funny is Bush is saying that those people who told on him should go to jail.

Not only that, but its reported in a couple of articles off news.google that he's planning on launching an investigation to find out who's responsible for the leak.

I'm waiting for the slew of people who insisted that the Valeria Plame affair was a totally overblown affair to come out and rubbish Bush for overreacting to such a trivial leak. After all, didn't said people argue that intelligence leaks of this nature are how Washington works, and its not like anything really secret was given away.

Somehow, I imagine I'll be waiting for that for quite a while. I expect that this leak will be a real, proper, should-be-investigated leak. Hearing why the "but this is different" reasoning is argued could be amusing though.

Personally, I think Bush should launch an investigation into this.

jc

Hobbes

this is CNN.. http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/002715.html#002715

But some of the US news I have been watching has been the same kind of theme. Must see how Fox is spinning it in the no-spin zone.

Also turns out that Bush knew the story was going to break 2 weeks ago and tried to have it killed...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10536559/site/newsweek/

Hobbes

News just in, Cheney has cut his visit to Pakistan short to help with any "difficult" voting that may come up.

Ajnag

In 1978, George made a halfhearted stab at politics when he ran for an open Congressional seat. Maybe he didn't know what else to do, other than try to follow in daddy's footsteps. But Bush's heart wasn't really in it. Ultimately, it just didn't matter to him whether he would represent West Texas in the House of Representatives. And although he liked campaigning and showed an aptitude for it, his Democratic opponent mopped the floor with him.

Bush's rookie mistakes didn't help. At a candidate forum early on in the race, Bush told the crowd: "Today is the first time I've been on a real farm." That didn't exactly impress the rural voters. And his decision to show himself jogging around a track in one of his television spots only underscored how out-of-touch he was with the common man. Almost nobody jogged in West Texas.

And in the debates, Bush tried his best to come off sounding smart and serious. He made references to complicated economic policies. Difficult as it may be to believe now, many voters in the 1978 campaign were turned off by George W. Bush's overt intelligence. They figured him for some kind of brainiac.

George's opponent pegged him immediately as a spoiled rich kid from New England. A faux Texan. A Yankee carpetbagger. In contrast, the Democrat assumed the role of the earnest-but-friendly local boy. He constantly harped on George's elitist upbringing, as evident in this radio ad:

"In 1961, when Kent Hance graduated from Dimmitt High School in the 19th congressional district, his opponent George W. Bush was attending Andover Academy in Massachusetts. In 1965, when Kent Hance graduated from Texas Tech, his opponent was at Yale University. And while Kent Hance graduated from University of Texas Law School, his opponent -- get this, folks -- was attending Harvard."

The Democrat began telling crowds: "Yale and Harvard don't prepare you as well for running for the 19th Congressional district as Texas Tech does." It really got to Bush. He complained to a local newspaper about being pigeonholed as the outsider:

"We've been attacked for where I was born, for who my family is, and where my money has come from. I don't think that's fair."

Although he was gaining on the Democrat near the end, Bush lost the race. But the experience taught him everything he would someday need to mount an effective campaign. He discovered that voters aren't looking the smartest candidate, or the guy with the most experience. They want somebody who makes them comfortable. Somebody who's one of them. A regular guy.

He filed away all of that information in his head, and then turned to business.

http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/presidents/george-w-bush/

Hence the saying
"Know the enemy,
Know yourself,
And Victory
Is never in doubt
Not in a hundred battles."

He who know's self
But not the enemy
Will suffer one defeat
For every Victory.

He who knows
Neither self
Nor enemy
Will fail
In every battle.

-Sun Tzu - The art of war

On topic, this is quite intresting, Mentions of impeachment are hitting the capitol again, Which I didnt expect from this. Add to that, this is just the latest in a string of controversy to hit the white house.

If I may toot my own horn, One of the comforts I took from bush's victory last year was that a longer term would leave him and his administration open to prosicution. I cant predict the future, but the trends of how things are going give some confidence that this may help the us to reconsider and improve its political reality.

Oh and diebold have been in trouble lately as well

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Victor

Manic Moran wrote:

The same 'lack of moral fibre' that resulted in losing Vietnam, running away from Lebanon and Somalia.

Of course those who preach of 'lack of moral fibre' usually aren't in the firing line.

Manic Moran

True, I was at none of those events. I'm pretty sure that the root causes for the US withdrawls on all counts was domestic politics/consumption though, so 'lack of moral fibre' on the national front, not one of the troops on the site lacking any courage.

NTM

Victor

Oh, I realise you were "mirroring" the words.

So when are you running for the state assembly?

Manic Moran

I was wondering the same thing, but I might have to resign my commission. Since it's the closest thing to a pension scheme I've got going right now, I'm a little reluctant..

NTM

spooiirt!!

Of course Bush is an idiot. Why look, he makes pronunciation and grammar mistakes all the time.

Hobbes

Funny how things change... Patriot act signed into law again.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4792012.stm