How to get a Licence when we have Ignorant Gardai?

rrpc

It's quite funny reading the posts here complaining about 'ignorant' Gardai when a lot of the posters seem to have very little knowledge of the firearms acts themselves!. People sem to be combining current law with proposed law and myth!.

Anyone who gets their father to license a firearm for them is breaking the law by using that firearm. Even under the proposed legislation, that would still be illegal, as they would be required to hold a training certificate for the firearm if they were under 16 and over 14, and would have to have a certificate in their own name if they are over 16. The Gardai require you to have permission from two landowners to get a license at the moment but membership of a gun club is an acceptable alternative. In addition to all that, if you are not a householder, you need the permission of the householder to store the firearm in their house.

On another subject, I have the results of the UCESSA winter league first three rounds and I'll post them on the Rathdrum website when time allows.

Rovi

rrpc wrote:

It's quite funny reading the posts here complaining about 'ignorant' Gardai when a lot of the posters seem to have very little knowledge of the firearms acts themselves!...

Excellent point!
People should also remember that this is a PUBLIC forum, and go easy on the derogatory name calling.
Please folks, bear in mind that more than us enthusiasts are reading this board, from those with a professional connection to guns (DOJ, Gardai), to the outright 'antis' looking for material to further their own cause.

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jaycee

Excellent point!
People should also remember that this is a PUBLIC forum, and go easy on the derogatory name calling.
Please folks, bear in mind that more than us enthusiasts are reading this board, from those with a professional connection to guns (DOJ, Gardai), to the outright 'antis' looking for material to further their own cause.

I totally agree..!

It's also interesting that we are all careful not to offend when it comes to comments about females and female shooters .
I only wish the same standards would apply when making references to the DOJ and the Gardaí,not from fear of any consequences,
but common good manners and respect.

scout

rrpc wrote:

It's quite funny reading the posts here complaining about 'ignorant' Gardai when a lot of the posters seem to have very little knowledge of the firearms acts themselves!. People sem to be combining current law with proposed law and myth!.

The Gardai require you to have permission from two landowners to get a license at the moment but membership of a gun club is an acceptable alternative. .

I was not implying that all gardai are ignorant just a very small % which includes my local FO

As regards the permission to shoot that only applies to a limeted cert which acording to the definitions i have seen so far including the one on the dept. of justice website is a shotgun??

http://www.justice.ie/80256E01003A21A5/vWeb/pcJUSQ5YBJWM-en

civdef

Scout, one of the requirements to get any firearms licence is that you shouw a genuine reason to want the licence. The Garda take the view that providing them with letters of permission from landowners is one way of demonstrating the reason. Another would be membership of a club.

There is no reason that one landowner wouldn't be enough, providing the amount of land involved was big enough to shoot over.

scout

So the permission saught by the guards is moer to prove i have reasnoble grounds to hold a firearm ,,,,,clears alot up thanx

Rovi

scout wrote:

So the permission saught by the guards is moer to prove i have reasnoble grounds to hold a firearm ,,,,,clears alot up thanx

Exactly!

At the moment (and for the foreseeable future) in Ireland, there are only two legitimate reasons for which an ordinary citizen may be issued a licence- Hunting (game/fowl/vermin) and Target Shooting.
Self defense, collecting, "they're coming to get me", "I like guns", etc, are not 'legitimate' uses for live firearms as far as the DOJ and the Gardai are concerned.

As a farmer/landowner, I'm in the happy position of not needing permission letters for a .22LR rifle or a shotgun, but I had to provide target shooting club membership for the fullbore rifle. The application for a second .22LR was also eased by having the club membership.
I got my first fullbore rifle on a deer permit, and in that case I had to get permission from landowners in 'deer country'.

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Clare gunner

[

QUOTE=Rovi]Excellent point!
People should also remember that this is a PUBLIC forum, and go easy on the derogatory name calling.
Please folks, bear in mind that more than us enthusiasts are reading this board, from those with a professional connection to guns (DOJ, Gardai), to the outright 'antis' looking for material to further their own cause.[/QUOTE
:mad: :mad: :mad:
Lets not also forget that if the shoe fits.......and the internet is still the most democratic form of free expression on this planet still left to the common man.If we are going to watch our P&Qs because we are worried about Big Brother surveillance of the Cops and antis and other fruit&nut groups.I say LET THEM.they might [1]learn somthing [2] realise that there isnt a bunch of sheeple out there that can be pushed around by the State of Ireland and have been ignored long enough..
As I said before on this topic.If there are commendable Garda and FAOS who do the job correctly without bias and to the letter of the law ,please let them be mentioned!!!!Two posters on this thread said they were very well served by their FAOs.How about mentioning their stations and names lads??We and they would like to acknowledge and no doubt be acknowledged for a job well done.Nothing wrong or illegal in this either.
As for total turkeys they should be mentioned as well.
Heres mine; Supt G Mahon,Henry St, Limerick.Reason he is apprently sitting on everyones pistol and big calibre applications in the Limerick area because "he has certain belifs about the public owning such weapons".The policy from his office is stall,stall,stall.Registerd letters are not acknowledged,phone calls are not returned,attempts to meet in person are ignored,stalled or generally not acknowledged.I was assured by his personal sec that I would be meeting him as he wants to interview the applicants in person within the first week in Dec!It is now near 12 MONTHS since I applied for my two liscenses and I am making a point of next Jan institing a judical review.
I AM SICK OF IT!!:mad: :mad: And no doubt there are hundreds of others like me out there who do not post or know of this board.Would any of us put up with this kind of crap if we were applying for a passport,a bin tag,or a drivers or a dog liscense?Why should the Gardai be exempt from the norm of public servant efficnecy[somwhat] and courtsey?As well as that they prove that the Garda constitution of dealing with the public in a fair,efficent and open manner,is [at least in my case ]a load of old toss!!
I DEFY anyone or any Garda reading this to justify such a shameful ,shoddy,sloppy and downright arbitarially manner of handling a relatively simple matter of granting a firearms cert in this fashion.:mad:

Ladies &gentlemen of this board,lets stop being so scared of the big bad gardai.Lets realise that they are there to serve us not vise versa.We are paying their wages and we would like some service please.This nonsense of US sucking up to THEM has to stop.WE are the most law abiding sector of this land,as otherwise we wouldnt be liscensed to posses firearms,so we should be treated with abit of courtsey.And before you start posting about catching flies with honey or vinegar,being safe &harmless etc etc.Remember that many of us have done this and gotten nothing but contempt for it.So maybe now the Blue flies prefer vinegar!Going by their entire handling of the firearms issue of the last three years,the flies around here seem to positively thrive on the stuff!!!
Here endeth the sermon.
Happy Christmas,Xmas,Hannaukah,Kwannza,Rammadan,Winter Solstice,and whatever else festiviy you are having yourself.:D

scout

jaycee wrote:

I totally agree..!

It's also interesting that we are all careful not to offend when it comes to comments about females and female shooters .
I only wish the same standards would apply when making references to the DOJ and the Gardaí,not from fear of any consequences,
but common good manners and respect.

Female shooters is a genaralisation whish applies to all female shooters,

however "ignorant gardai" refers to those who are ignorant and is not a generalisation. it refers to that section of the garda force who "make up policy" and as such give the force in general a bad name but as i have explained in previous posts my local garda is ignorant but that is not to say the neighbouring garda is.

And im sure the issue of slander and the making of deflametary remarks will come up but need i remind you it is only deformation if the comment is not true ,however if the comment is a fair statement it is Perfectly ok

There for i can say the ballincollig FO does not know the law relating to firearms,,,true statment as he looked for the conditions outlined in the first post which we have acknoalaged to be in contradiction to the statue..

Riggser

What amazes me is that you know who signs off the license you wish to apply for. So if your passport hasn't arrived it may take that bit longer to find out whats going on but you know or should know the Superintendent that is taking your application into consideration. It's not like a driver's license or passport where you send off and it appears within a reasonable time through your letter box, you're applying for something that may be used as a weapon that may cause harm to something or someone. Although there may be an arguement for the amount of deaths on our roads every year comapred to the amount of deaths due to the missuse of legally held firearms. Anyone know that statistic? I'm sure it's a singal figure.

I was given a date and time of when my application would be cleared or refused. If you were given one, it wasn't kept by the Gardai and now you are being blanked and ignored get onto the Garda Complaints Board, you've made a valid application I would have thought so you are well within your rights to know the Superintendents thoughts on your application and ultimately his decision.

Clare gunner

[

Although there may be an arguement for the amount of deaths on our roads every year comapred to the amount of deaths due to the missuse of legally held firearms. Anyone know that statistic? I'm sure it's a singal figure.

Apprently in the last three years our death toll on Irish roads is equvialant to the sum total of people killed in the 33years of Northern Ireland[3500 appx]
2005 has had the highest road deaths sofar and the most"road saftey" legislation introduced.go figure.
Gun deaths [excluding criminal &paramilitary shootings] so sucidies and accidental discharges guestimate from news, reports,etc appx 10 if at that.

I was given a date and time of when my application would be cleared or refused. If you were given one, it wasn't kept by the Gardai and now you are being blanked and ignored get onto the Garda Complaints Board

,

Rang them last week,buckpassed to liscensing dept in the Phoenix park.Talked to one very nice lady in charge of the lic dept[Mary].Very sympathetic,in agreement that is an outlandish time frame,and gave me the usual suggestions of writing etc.Also that even talking to your Cheif Super as to why the delay will get nowhere.Said any liscenses processed by them are done within a 24hour turnaround,somhow I belive her on that as well.
As it all rests with one person[Super]for the district.In other words we have a situation where one person has absolute power and there is really said no check or balance to redress the decision of that person.Without going for much expense in a high court.[Justice for all,if you can afford it.]

#you've made a valid application I would have thought so you are well within your rights to know the Superintendents thoughts on your application and ultimately his decision.

Apprently not in Ireland,you are entitled to know Jack S"£%Tfrom anybody,organisation,or public service body.
What was that Mr Aherne about openness and transperancy and freedom of information that you grandly at the start of your rule all those years ago??:rolleyes:

BTW Riggser,did you finally get your liscense?If so for what?

scout

Riggser wrote:

Although there may be an arguement for the amount of deaths on our roads every year comapred to the amount of deaths due to the missuse of legally held firearms. Anyone know that statistic? I'm sure it's a singal figure..

The no of peaple killed acidentaly by a fierarm missile is (1 male )and 40 self inflicted injuries by firearm missile (38 male 2 female)

http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/vitalstats/2001/deaths.pdf

411 road deaths in same period

Riggser

Complaints dealt with by the Garda Siochana Complaints Board
The Board deals with complaints that contain allegations of criminal offences and improper conduct. Improper conduct consists of:

Discourtesy
Neglect of duty
Falsehood or prevarication
Abuse of authority
Corrupt or improper practice
Misuse of money or property
Intoxication
Discreditable conduct
Being an accessory to the above.

http://oasis.gov.ie/justice/general/garda_siochana_complaints_board.html

I've posted this before. You definitely need to go to them and ask for advice. From what you say you have a case. Going to this complaints board would probably shake up this problem rather than going to court.

Garda Siochana Complaints Board
Rules
How to apply
Where to apply
Information
The Garda Siochana Complaints Board is an independent statutory agency that deals with complaints from citizens about members of An Garda Siochana (the Irish police force). The Board is linked to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, but is entirely independent in the operation of its functions.

The Garda Siochana Complaints Board is lead by a Chief Executive with an administrative staff of civil servants.

A total of 1,232 complaints were received by the Garda Siochana Complaints Board in 2004. Complaints increased by almost 5% on the number received in 2003. Of the 774 complaints processed to a conclusion in 2004, 35 were informally resolved at local level. A further 31 were held to disclose a minor breach of discipline and were referred to the Garda Commissioner. An additional 27 complaints were referred to the Garda Siochana Complaints Tribunal.

In the other complaints that were finalised, no offence or breach of discipline was disclosed in 326 cases and the remainder were either withdrawn, not proceeded with or deemed inadmissible. In the course of 2004, the Board referred 240 complaints received from the public to the Director of Public Prosecutions. The Director of Public Prosecutions instigated prosecution proceedings against 3 Gardai in respect of 2 complaints.

The average processing time for complaints in 2004 was reduced to five months. Further information on the work of the Board during 2004 is available in the Garda Siochana Complaints Board Annual Report 2004 (pdf).

Rules
Anyone over the age of 17 (or a solicitor acting on your behalf) can make a complaint to the Board, however, you must have either witnessed the incident in question or been directly affected by it. The parents or guardians of individuals under 17 can make complaints on their behalf.

Complaints about improper conduct by a member of the Gardai must be made within 6 months of the incident.

Complaints dealt with by the Garda Siochana Complaints Board
The Board deals with complaints that contain allegations of criminal offences and improper conduct. Improper conduct consists of:

Discourtesy
Neglect of duty
Falsehood or prevarication
Abuse of authority
Corrupt or improper practice
Misuse of money or property
Intoxication
Discreditable conduct
Being an accessory to the above.
Dealing with complaints
When you make a complaint to the Garda Siochana Complaints Board, it is examined to see whether if falls within the remit of the Garda Siochana (Complaints) Act, 1986. If the Chief Executive of the Board decides that it does not fall within the remit of the Act, you can appeal to the Board against the Chief Executive's decision.

If your complaint does meet the conditions set out in the Act, it will be dealt with in one of two ways. If the Board decides to resolve it informally, it will send it to the local Garda Superintendent or Inspector. Informal resolution is only used for complaints that do not involve allegations of criminal behaviour. Informal resolution also requires the written consent of both the complainant and the member of the Garda Siochana against whom the complaint was made.

The actual Board consists of a Chairman (a practising barrister, or a practising solicitor, of not less than ten years' standing) and 8 ordinary members. Appointments to the Board are made by the Government and last for 5 years, following which time a member can be reappointed.

If your complaint is formally investigated, it will be investigated by a member of the Gardai, usually a Superintendent or Inspector. The officer investigating the complaint will take statements from the complainant, the Garda against whom the complaint was made and any witnesses. Any relevant documents will also be examined. A report is sent to the Board after the investigation is finished. The Board then considers the report and decides what action to take.

If your complaint is successful
If a complaint alleging criminal behaviour is successful, the Board will refer the complaint to the Director of Public Prosecutions who will consider whether a criminal prosecution should be brought against any member of the Garda Siochana. If the Director of Public Prosecutions decides that no prosecution should be taken or if the successful complaint does involve an allegation of criminal behaviour, the Board must decide whether the evidence indicates that a member of the Garda Siochana may be guilty of improper conduct.

If the Board decides that the evidence indicates that a Garda may be guilty of improper conduct, it can do one of two things:

If the improper conduct is considered to be minor, refer the matter to the Garda Commissioner who will either issue advice to, admonish or warn the Garda in question
If the improper conduct is considered to be serious, refer the matter to a Tribunal.
Tribunals
Tribunals are made up of three people - two members of the Garda Siochana Complaints Board who have not had any previous dealings with the complaint, one of whom must be a practising barrister or solicitor with at least 10 years experience, and a senior Garda officer nominated by the Garda Commissioner.

The Tribunal sittings are held in private and the Tribunal hears evidence from the complainant, the Garda against whom the complaint was made and any witnesses. If the Tribunal decides that the allegations contained in the complaint are proven, it can:

Issue a formal caution, reprimand or warning
Impose a fine of up to four weeks pay
Reduce a Garda in rank
Order the dismissal of a Garda
Require the Garda to retire or resign as an alternative to dismissal
A complainant cannot appeal against a decision of the Tribunal. However, a Garda against whom an allegation is judged to have been proven can appeal both the Tribunal's decision or the penalty imposed by it. Such an appeal must be made to the Garda Siochana Complaints Appeal Board. While a complainant cannot appeal against a decision of the Tribunal, you still have the right to seek legal redress through the courts if you so wish.

Garda Siochana Complaints Appeal Board
The Garda Siochana Complaints Appeal Board is completely independent of the Garda Siochana Complaints Board. It is made up of three people, one of whom must be a practising barrister or solicitor with at least 10 years experience, and is chaired by a Circuit Court judge. Appointments to the Garda Siochana Complaints Appeal Board are made by the Government and membership lasts for a term of 5 years. Following this 5-year period, members are eligible to be reappointed to the Board.

The complainant is entitled to be present at an Appeal Board hearing. Hearings are held in private. The Appeal Board examines the written record of the Tribunal hearing and can hear other evidence if it sees fit. The Appeal Board can:

Confirm the Tribunal's decision
Change the Tribunal's decision
Confirm the penalty imposed
Reduce the penalty imposed
Increase the penalty imposed.
How to apply
If you wish to make a complaint about any member of An Garda Siochana, you may do this in several ways:

Put your complaint in writing to the Garda Siochana Complaints Board (see "Where to apply" for contact information)
Call into the Garda Siochana Complaints Board at the address above and make your complaint in person. Opening hours are from 10:00a.m. - 12:30p.m. and from 2:30p.m. - 4:30p.m. Monday-Friday.
Call into any Garda Station in Ireland and make your complaint to a member of An Garda Siochana. In the Garda Station, a Garda will fill in complaint Form GSC1 - this is the official form which outlines the nature of your complaint. The completed form is sign by both you and the Garda. You can request a copy of the form. The Garda will send the original form to the Garda Siochana Complaints Board.
Where to apply
Garda Siochana Complaints Board,
Block 1,
5th Floor,
Irish Life Centre,
Dublin 1.
Tel: (01) 872 8666
Fax: (01) 874 6249