Breast feeding

elexes

dont suppose its worth saying that xmass is a very stressfull time of year and that maby ud be better off making a cup of tea before replying then sitting down after the cuppa and making a reply out .


just a thought .. works a killer . rember next week monday and tuesday are bank holidays . long weekend ppl !

Khannie

luckat wrote:

well, I don't honestly see that it's a man's responsibility - or right - to nag his partner into stopping smoking or drugtaking because she's the vessel that's carrying his child.

You think that because the woman has the child in her womb that the father should stand idly by and let her kill his child? What's the difference between that and when the child is outside the womb? Should the mother be able to give the child drugs then if she feels like it? Or is it different because the male can physically see the child then?

(This may seem OT, but it's really at the crux of the issue of whether or not the male should have any input).

Khannie

elexes wrote:

dont suppose its worth saying that xmass is a very stressfull time of year and that maby ud be better off making a cup of tea before replying then sitting down after the cuppa and making a reply out .

Only read this after.

I promise to do so before my next reply.

luckat

Yes, we're into an interesting ethical area here, all right, Khannie.

Am I dreaming, or was there a court case a couple of years back in which a man won the right to force his ex-girlfriend to abort his child?

The whole area is one in which our ethics are challenged. Should a strongly vegetarian man be allowed to force the mother of his child to eat only vegetarian food, for instance?

What if he *isn't* the father? Should he then have the right to stop her, say, smoking or eating meat or mountain-climbing?

Since a foetus is not legally considered a human being, but a part of the woman's body, does anyone have any rights over that body except the woman living in it?

And if a man wants his child breastfed and the mother doesn't want to breastfeed it, should he have the right to hire a wetnurse, say? Again, what about someone who isn't the child's father - does the right to supervise the child's welfare accrue only to the father, or to any other person?

Khannie

luckat wrote:

Yes, we're into an interesting ethical area here, all right, Khannie.

Defo. They're the best for a few beers and a bit of banter.

luckat wrote:

Am I dreaming, or was there a court case a couple of years back in which a man won the right to force his ex-girlfriend to abort his child?

Defo dreaming. At least not in Ireland. Abortion is, after all, illegal here. Laws in foreign countries aren't really relevant to the discussion though.

luckat wrote:

What if he *isn't* the father? Should he then have the right to stop her, say, smoking or eating meat or mountain-climbing?

Now you're talking about the state really (unless it's a minor and then the parents have some control also). The state forces lots of people to not do things all the time (that they might otherwise like to do). Some are relatively harmless (e.g. smoking pot) others not so (e.g. theft / murder).

luckat wrote:

Since a foetus is not legally considered a human being, but a part of the woman's body,

You sure about that?

luckat wrote:

does anyone have any rights over that body except the woman living in it?

That's an easy one. Yes. The state for one. It's illegal to commit suicide for example. Not much of a deterrant I know....but the idea is that you can't cash in on life insurance etc.

luckat wrote:

And if a man wants his child breastfed and the mother doesn't want to breastfeed it, should he have the right to hire a wetnurse, say? Again, what about someone who isn't the child's father - does the right to supervise the child's welfare accrue only to the father, or to any other person?

I declare pints!

Have a happy christmas.

OP: I feel you have the right to make your feelings very clear and at least apply some coersion to try to achieve your desired goal. Ultimately though, it's your partners choice.

elexes

ok very weird . youve managed to derail a topic totally

And if a man wants his child breastfed and the mother doesn't want to breastfeed it, should he have the right to hire a wetnurse, say?

well why not if he wanted but alas i cant find a wetnurse section in the golden pages nor even if i could im sure they would be extreemly expensive and totally out of my budget. but if you do know where to find one sure post a link just for the intrest .

also you managed to doge my two questions totally

me and my gf have very different views on most subjects . a debate about the sky lasted for 6 hours over the phone we both agreed to never bring the subject up ever again and its just not worth it . we discuss most things that we do long before we do them to make sure we both want to do them . do you believe that i should just listen to my gf and whatever she says wheather it be right or wrong i just go along with it because i wouldnt want her to get annoyed ?

luckat

I believe in constructive discussion; I don't believe that anyone except the woman herself has the right to tell her whether she should breastfeed.

If you want to read some articles about the research on breastfeeding, try searching the BBC news website (http://news.bbc.co.uk), which reports a lot of studies in an easy-to-understand and unbiased way.

I don't mean to overreact to you, elexes; I don't know you.

But there's a shocking bunch of breastfeeding Legion of Mary types around at the moment who can put really horrible pressure on women, make them feel as if they're not good mothers if they don't choose to breastfeed.

Used to be the other way - one used to be shouted at for trying to nurse a baby quietly under a shawl in the corner of a park!

Consider this: it's perfectly ok with lots of people to slap a child, but not to give the baby a bottle. Go (as the Americans say) figure.

Nevyn

Frist step would be to find out what exactly your gf thinks about it.
Then see about reading some more and seeing if she will read up on it to.

foxinsocks

This is just speaking from my own experience. Before i ever even got pregnant, i always said that if i ever had children, that i would breastfeed them... Breast milk is (as you've already heard) the absolutely best start to give your baby. Its full of all the right mix of nutrients. It has immune systems boosters, all kinds of good stuff... Also, mothers who breastfeed have a lower rate of 'female' cancers (breast/cervix etc).

Many babies who are breastfed have far less colick, or digestive problems than babies fed on formula.

I had trouble getting mind breastfed at the start, it took her a while to learn how not to spit me out and how to latch on properly, but we got there. In the meantime i was supplementing with formula, and i have to say, breastfeeding was FAR easier. No sterilising, no washing bottles, no mixing formula, no heating it up, or refridgerating it, none of that stuff.

A friend of mine had a baby, and said all along that there was no way she was going to breastfeed. But when her baby was born, she felt completley differently.

Try to find out exactly why your partner doesnt want to breast feed. If she is really not comfortable with the idea, dont try to force the issue, it wont make her change her mind. One thing you could (gently) suggest is maybe that she tries it for a few days. The milk that comes out of the breast in the early days (colostrum) is just so full of goodness, even a few days of breast feeding your baby will give it a huge boost.

All that said, however, its not for everyone. A bottle fed baby will do just fine. Formulas are well structured to meet all baby's needs. And you will have a chance to feed your baby more often, if she/he is not breast fed .

Fox_in_Socks

elexes

well mid coversation of what to do over xmass i throught in sure give bf a try will ya and she instantly said yes but if it dosnt work it dosnt work . so cant ask more then that

ha sorted . thx for advice hopfully all goes well .

luckat

Perfect. And if she wants any tips, tell her come here. Frinstance, there's a little set of nerves at the side of a baby's mouth, and if you tip just there with the nipple, the baby's instinct is to turn the mouth towards it and suckle.

Another tip - make sure the baby gets the nipple centred, doesn't latch onto the breast just to the side - ouch!

elexes

lol will do

deisemum

While she's pregnant and not suffering from sleep deprivation and her brain can still retain some information it might be worthwhile for your partner to go to your local health board/executive breastfeeding support meetings (usually weekly) and meet other breastfeeding mums who can give advice on what to expect (by breastfeeding) what problems that may occur, growth spurts etc so that when she does start breastfeeding she'll be more prepared.

Also once baby is born if she has any big, small or perceived trivial queries at least she will already know people that she can contact.

hillybilly

I have read this thread from start to finish in one sitting. I know this is an issue close to people's hearts but I find some of the post here very offensive tbh.

Raiser stated that women who don't breastfeed are morons (in his/her opinion). How can you call someone a moron when you don't know them. I didn't breastfeed and I KNOW I'm not a moron. I went to anti-natal classes and there was a woman there from the le leche league. She was doing the same as alot of people here, trying to force their ideals about breastfeeding down peoples neck.

I have heard all the "breast is best" information, I got it from all angles while I was pregnant. I'm not saying I disagree with the fact that breast is better, I can't, because it IS better, we all know that.

However, this woman from the le leche league stuffed it down our necks that we would be bad mothers if we did not breast feed (which seems to be the opinion of some people here). That just IS NOT true.

Sleipmir stated that women who don't breastfeed are selfish. Again, how can you say that about someone you don't know. People have their reasons and not breastfeeding doesn't make them selfish people. Breast may be best but formula isn't harmful, it's just not as good.

I found some of the posts here very offensive and hurtful. I had good reasons for not breastfeeding. I had intended to try it as I knew it was best for her. It didn't work out like I had planned (as sometimes happens). I didn't beat myself up over this, being a new mother was stressful enough without that aswell. It was myself and my husband's decision and I don't regret it for a moment.

I don't think ANYONE has the right to tell me i'm a moron, selfish or any of the other comments of that nature which have been posted here. It's a personal choice. It may not be as beneficial to the baby in the long run but it won't HARM them not to be breastfed.

I have my opinions about all manner of subjects but I respect other peoples decisions as they are their decisions to make. I wouldn't dream of making little of them by calling them names just because I think they are wrong.

On a different note, hope you all had a safe and happy Christmas.

embee

Well well well. Hello there.

First up, I am elexes girlfriend. I am 35 weeks pregnant, and I want to clarify one or two small points.

Raiser wrote:

Anyone that doesn't want to give their baby the best possible start for a healthy life despite having the required equipment with them at all times since puberty and having no good reason in the world not to at least make a decent attempt is [at best] ignorant of the facts or else [most likely] a moron {in my opinion}

Firstly, I am not a moron, and I am not ignorant. There are reasons why I expressed reservations to my boyfriend about breastfeeding. I am not ignorant - I do know that breastfeeding is better for baby. I do know that breast milk contains all sorts of antibodies that formula will never have. I know all of the benefits. However, no-ones personal situation is black and white, least of all mine.

I am due my baby at the end of January. No hiccups there. However, I am scheduled to have major surgery in the late Spring, for which I may have to start taking medication once the baby is born. I don't know for sure whether the meds I am on will leech into the breastmilk. These are things I will need to discuss with my GP, surgeon, midwife etc. I won't know what meds I am going on until after I have the child.

Secondly, for the first few months of our childs life, myself and elexes will be living 100 miles apart and not seeing each other every day. This is through circumstances that are neither of our faults, but it is just going to be that way and thats that. Breastfeeding can be time consuming. I will be doing a lot of the early childcare on my own. I will have a lot of laundry, cleaning, childcare etc. to do and yes, I will admit that the idea of having pre-prepared bottles of formula appeals to me because of the convenience factor of it. I'm not an Earth Mother. This is my first child and I can imagine how trying it will be trying to keep on top of everything, on my own. My parents are both still in their mid 40's, and are both working full time jobs. I will have a LOT to do by myself. Also, I will be trying to bring the baby to see his/her Dad as much as possible. He's in the Midlands, I'm in County Louth. Its a two hour drive. Practically speaking, supplementing breast and formula will probably be best for me in this regard. I really do NOT fancy having to pull over and breastfeeding baby in my car at the side of the road. Pumping before journeys etc. is all well and good but its a long drive, bad roads, I'll have a lot of other stuff to prepare before I even set off.

Thirdly, I never once said that I wasn't going to breastfeed. I expressed reservations and concerns about it for the above reasons, and others. I actually am going to try it out. If it works, I will be so delighted, but if it doesn't, I certainly will not put myself through a guilt trip. We have bought breast pumps, bottles, and sterilisation kits. Thats just in case though. I fully intend to try breastfeeding, at least for the first 6-8 weeks. I may decide to supplement breastmilk and formula, but I won't beat myself up over it if I feel its become too much. I never ONCE said that I wasn't going to do it.

deisemum wrote:

I do think it's sad that she's not even going to try. Is is because she comes from a family where she hasn't seen anyone nurse their baby? If she hasn't been in an environement or knows anyone who has breastfed then it is understandable if she's reluctant, you do hear some weird and unpleasant stories about bfing. At the ante-natal classes the midwives normally encourage bf.

As I've said above, I am going to try. I'm going to give it my all. It might not work. My mother nursed my brother, but didn't have enough milk for me or my sister. My mother is pro-breastfeeding, as am I. My aunt has two kids who she bottle-fed, but that was because again, she wasn't producing enough milk. I've read up on breastfeeding. I know full well what the benefits of it are above bottle-feeding, and I am honestly going to give it a go.

Peace wrote:

elexes - i'm sure easons have plenty of baby books that would help you & gf understand more. I hope everything goes smoothly for you guys.

I have read baby books from cover to cover. I have trawled the internet. I have seeked advice from family members and friends who have bottle and breastfed respectively. I don't need to be patronised to and told that I need to "understand" more. We are in a less than ideal situation vis a vis our living arrangements, and my own health issues and surgery in 5-6 months time. For these reasons, I expressed reservations about the practicalities of breastfeeding. Believe me, I understand plenty.

Ultimately though, it IS my decision. Its my body. I'm going to be on my own a lot at the beginning. We don't have an ideal situation. Christ, I wish we did, but we don't. And I don't think I deserve to be called "ignorant" and a "moron" because I'm trying to make a decision based on practicalities as well as whats best for my baby.

Yes, breastfeedings best for my baby. What about whats best for me?

Nevyn

Hi Embee I see you found this thread at last.
I know that you are going to make the best choices that your life allows for you and your child.

run_Forrest_run

my partner is expecting in 2 weeks time (with our first) and when we were at ante-natal classes the mid-wife covered feeding.She said the hospital (won't name) are totally open to both types and so I thought that they were going to be fair and unbiased...she spent 2 minutes talking about bottle feeding and the different types of formula ...then she switched to breast feeding, she put on a video for the next 20 minutes which really harped on and on about the benefits of breastfeeding...not only that but the people in the video actually put down parents who bottle fed.

Now since this is our first time round we thought it would have been nice to have been informed of both feeding methods in a fair and impartial manner...why is there huge pressure on parents to breast feed? I am not saying anything against breastfeeding and I believe it probably is the best approach BUT only if it suits the mother and the child....the video ignored such scenarios like illness/c-section recovery etc..

Kernel32

Situations do occur where a woman cannot or should not breast feed but they are actually pretty rare. The vast majority of women are physically capable of breast feeding after birth, sometimes it takes some help of course and you have to be commited to trying it. My guess is the video was created to talk to that majority rather than taking up too much time covering the much smaller minority. Is that fair? Dunno really but it's basically how our entire society is laid out, to service the majority. If you have concerns about what to do in exceptional situations you could contact someone at the La Leche League.

The other issue is the promotion of breast feeding over bottle feeding. I believe that is coming from a backlash againist the formula vendors. For years they promoted their product for free in ante-natal classes and the like. The health services no longer want to do that, if a formula vendor wants to advertise the advantages of formula feeding then they should do it on their dime.

run_Forrest_run

you make some good points kernel32. I can understand the hospitals not wishing to be an advertising verhicle for formula vendors..but the hospital could have spent a little more time simply discussing the bottle feeding approach as they did for beastfeeding..anyway, as I said my partner is planning to breastfeed..albeit she is nervous and could easily feel insecure if it doesn't work the first few times....especially now after how the video potrayed non-breastfeeders! The video even used the word 'plonker' for women who don't breastfeed...I can be there with support anyway.

sweety4uall

i breastfed my daughter for first 8 months.she didnt get the colds that most babies get,and she only spat up the feed once,cause id had a curry.lol.not sure if it just cause of breast milk,but she seemed more advanced than babies i knew on bottle feeds.last couple of months i had to introduce the odd bottle feed though,as it was getting very sore for me.but me thinks breast is best,and theres no excuse for not giving it a try at least.

spurious

Far more important than breast fed or bottle fed is a child with a happy mother.

It's your gf's decision - if she feels pressured into it, it will be worse than useless. Of course she may not be able to bf at all, and in that case, it is not her 'fault', it is just how things are.

samo

spurious wrote:

Far more important than breast fed or bottle fed is a child with a happy mother.

.

Thats the crux of the issue right there and I cant believe having just read through the whole of this thread that certain posters have taken such a 'high and mighty' stance and described mothers that didnt breastfeed as morons.

On my 1st child I had the same attitude that if I could breastfeed successfully I would, baby was born and did not want to latch on at all (and not from want of trying on my part), this went on for approx a week, all the time with me getting more and more stressed. Also after a couple of days the baby blue's can kick in (due to the change of hormones in the mothers body following the birth) and I remember at one stage sitting in the bed in the hospital crying my eye's out with a baby who just didnt want to latch on. The hospital wouldnt let me go home until a successful feeding pattern had been established (either bottle or breast) and even though I was expressing milk, child just wasnt interested!

After nearly a week of this and also in intense pain due to breast engorgement, I made the decision to try formula and even this was difficult (it would take the baby nearly an hour to finish 4oz of milk!) I think my 1st child was just that type of baby! Although after reading up on it, apparently if pethidine administered for pain relief is given late during labour this can affect the baby for several days making them drowsy which might have been another cause.

So thats one experience of how under certain circumstances is something that if it doesnt feel right for the baby or mother it can be an intensly stressful situation. Thankfully the hospital were not judgemental in the slightest and at all times told me that the baby would be nourished no matter what option I went for but the most important thing was it that it was not worth causing untold grief or stress over. If someone had told me that 1st week I was a moron I'd say there would have been a queue of people willing to swing for them seeing the stress I went through to try and do the right thing.

I'm expecting my 3rd baby in a few weeks and like before, if the babies happy breastfeeding then will go with that but until your in that place and faced with the decision its very difficult to say whats right or wrong!

Good luck with the birth and hope whatever you choose, all concerned are happy!!

run_Forrest_run

Samo, you're story is very interesting and I will keep it in mind. Just under 2 weeks to go ...just playing the waiting game now!

samo

run_Forrest_run wrote:

Samo, you're story is very interesting and I will keep it in mind. Just under 2 weeks to go ...just playing the waiting game now!

Good luck - hope it all goes well, and hope you've the bag packed!!

Just to say also..I hope my post doesnt deter anyone from trying - it was meant more as an example that although you might have the intention of establishing that method of feeding it can sometimes be tougher than you might think and not be to hard on yourself if it doesnt work out - and as the person who posted before me said is that both are happy with whatever method they choose!!

shayser

Our son is three weeks old now. His mother chose to breastfeed. Initial support that she expected from the hospital never came, but that was part of a wider problem.

The first week was very difficult. The baby stuggled to feed properly and his mothers nipples became very painfull very quickly. She woke me crying one morning at 4am becasue it just wasn't working. I went out to Tesco and bought a breast pump. It worked brilliantly and she and the baby haven't looked back since.

Best of luck elexes and embee.

Nevyn

shayser wrote:

Our son is three weeks old now. His mother chose to breastfeed. Initial support that she expected from the hospital never came, but that was part of a wider problem.

The materinty hospitals tend to be pressed to the limits nearly all the time.
They also tend to leave mother and child to get on with it and bond so unless
you make a point of asking and pushing for help it doesnt' appear.
I had a horrid time my first night after the birth of my first having not slept for
over 36 hours and it took me telling the night matron I was going to ring a taxi
and go home with my child that I got some help and some sleep.

They do have nursing aid sisters but you have to ask for them which is madness.

shayser wrote:

The first week was very difficult. The baby stuggled to feed properly and his mothers nipples became very painfull very quickly. She woke me crying one morning at 4am becasue it just wasn't working. I went out to Tesco and bought a breast pump. It worked brilliantly and she and the baby haven't looked back since.

I suffered with two cracked nipples with my second child with in days of the birth. I found nipple sheilds were a gods send.
They can provide an option that lets your nipples heal with out just going straight to using just the pump.

http://breastfeed.com/resources/articles/nipshields.htm

Nipple sheild themself are another contraversial aspect of breastfeeding but
tbh I would say that every mum to be who is considering breast feedingshould get a pair
and while hopefully she will never need them they can be a great help.

shayser

The service at the hospital (other than the breastfeeding element) would probably be another topic. I will say that my wife was treated terribly from start to finish including having to sit in the public waiting room in her nightie after her bath while one bed in the six-bed ward was occupied, being given a sleeping tablet when 6cm dilated and the baby suffering severe brusing of the head and eyes (which are still bloodshot today) during delivery... The staff were unattentive and unfriendly to the last. There wasn't a doctor in sight; I'm sure this and lack of other support was the reason for the demeanor of the nursing staff. It's a disgrace that they are put in this position. There was more...

My wife did give the shields a go but they didn't work very well for her. Ours is the only experience I have to go on, but the pump did save the day.

It never ceases to amaze me what women go through to look after the rest of us.

Thaedydal wrote:

The materinty hospitals tend to be pressed to the limits nearly all the time.
They also tend to leave mother and child to get on with it and bond so unless
you make a point of asking and pushing for help it doesnt' appear.
I had a horrid time my first night after the birth of my first having not slept for
over 36 hours and it took me telling the night matron I was going to ring a taxi
and go home with my child that I got some help and some sleep.

They do have nursing aid sisters but you have to ask for them which is madness.



I suffered with two cracked nipples with my second child with in days of the birth. I found nipple sheilds were a gods send.
They can provide an option that lets your nipples heal with out just going straight to using just the pump.

http://breastfeed.com/resources/articles/nipshields.htm

Nipple sheild themself are another contraversial aspect of breastfeeding but
tbh I would say that every mum to be who is considering breast feedingshould get a pair
and while hopefully she will never need them they can be a great help.

arac

I for one am not a mother(not for some time more anyways I hope) but think that the decision to breast feed is completely down to the woman. In many cases its a mind over matter thing, if you have a mental or pscychological block about it before and during pregnancy, chances are it won't work for you..Breast milk is best for bambino but its easier said than done for alot of women..None of my brothers and sisters were breastfed as children, and we all turned out ok!!

run_Forrest_run

shayser, in relation to your experience with the hospital....I don't mean to offend you by asking this but did you and your wife go public? I am just asking this becuase of what seems the blantant difference in treatment (on a 'human' level) between public and private deliveries.

My point is that you hear people saying, "oh I had my baby privately and I will never go back,the care and attention I received was second to none etc etc" - my concern is that people feel in order to get treated with respect and dignity they must pay through the nose for it and go private. We all seem to assume if you go public then you are going to be treated badly (possibly...not all the time). We all seem to just accept this which at the end of the this does nothing to actually address the public system...I dunno, perhaps there is nothing we can do since government support is not there for a start...

FYI: We are currently going private ourselves...for the exact same reason so I suppose I am contributing to everything I harped on about above!

Nevyn

I went public for the birth of my first child and semiprivate for my second.
There is a huge difference between the rest you get in a room with only 3 other mothers and the lack of rest you get in a ward of 8 or ten.
The nurses and dr also seemed a lot lessed rushed.