Dealing with criticism of, and insults to, Islam

democrates

Neither the cartoon or the extreme reactions are helpful.
It's amazing how easily extremists can drag people into conflict, and escalate towards the clash of civilisations they seem to desire.

It's a fact of life today that a perceived insult of Mohammad can get you killed, wherever you live, an extremist can get you. We don't have free speech to the extent we want it, but as I don't see what good can come from insults on sensitive topics, I don't feel any great loss. Hadn't any plans to trowel out that kind of material or appetite to consume it.

What's needed is a constructive dialogue, it might not seem feasible given extremists, but let's not be hostages to fear generated by a few, hark back to the tolerant alhambra, we can live in harmony.

Freddie59

Hobbes wrote:

No I see stuff spouted like "Iraq and Afganistan are the same" but nothing to back it up.

While you may feel the need to not back up opinions the charter strictly says otherwise. The rules are not open for debate in this thread.

Now bring the thread back on topic.

This thread is called 'Dealing with criticism of, and insults to, Islam'. Much of the argument centres on the Danish Government's stance on the issue. Thus politics is inexorably drawn into the debate. It is unavoidable.

larryone

Just thinking in terms of the Islamic restriction on images of the prophet. It essentially is a measure against idolatry. But it was the same with Christianity until it became integrated with roman culture, and it was the same with Buddhism until it became influenced by greek culture. Is it possible that a similar change of values could ever occur in Islam?
I know that muslims feel very strongly against the perception of idolotry.
If that feeling was slightly diminished would it make situations like this current one any less intense?

Hobbes

Freddie59 wrote:

This thread is called 'Dealing with criticism of, and insults to, Islam'. Much of the argument centres on the Danish Government's stance on the issue. Thus politics is inexorably drawn into the debate. It is unavoidable.

I don't care what the thread is called. If you want to discuss politics then there is a thread already on this subject in politics. If you want to discuss the medias view on it then there is a thread in the Media forum, or if you want to spout anything without fear of being banned (within reason) there is a thread on it in After Hours.

This forum is for discussion of the Islamic religon only. That means no Osama bin Laden/911/Iraq occupation or Current geopolitics. If you aren't able to stay within these bounds within this forum you will be taking a holiday from the forum.

Freddie59

Hobbes wrote:

I don't care what the thread is called. If you want to discuss politics then there is a thread already on this subject in politics. If you want to discuss the medias view on it then there is a thread in the Media forum, or if you want to spout anything without fear of being banned (within reason) there is a thread on it in After Hours.

This forum is for discussion of the Islamic religon only. That means no Osama bin Laden/911/Iraq occupation or Current geopolitics. If you aren't able to stay within these bounds within this forum you will be taking a holiday from the forum.

Well - knock yourself out and go ahead and ban me then. It's just further evidence of the censorship which applies to anything which seems to take a different standpoint to the Islamic perspective. As a moderaor you say you don't care what the thread is called. If that is the case you should step aside.

bin Laden/9/11, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Israel, et al are all inexorably linked to this discussion. Just because you as an individual choose to hide behind a charter does not make the acts perpetrated in recent days right. You must hear all sides. Or does this particular Islamic forum enjoy protections that the other forums do not? I sincerely hope not.

By your reaction to my comments and contributions you have proved that Islamics, or those who support them, are unable to embrace the ideal of free speech. I feel sad for you more than anything.:(

Hobbes

Freddie59 wrote:

Well - knock yourself out and go ahead and ban me then. It's just further evidence of the censorship which applies to anything which seems to take a different standpoint to the Islamic perspective.

What censorship exactly? As I said there are multiple threads on boards.ie on the subject, which I might add you are already posting in. Likewise there are multiple links to the cartoon outside this forum, as the cartoon is offensive I do not see why it should be posted within this forum.

This forum is for the discussion of the Islamic religon, not for people of the religon to have to defend themselves for actions of others.

The charter is there to stop this place being flooded with political discussion which should go to another forum, nor is it a place to voice how they "hate muslims" or suicide bomber crap that was expected when the forum was first started.

By your reaction to my comments and contributions you have proved that Islamics, or those who support them, are unable to embrace the ideal of free speech. I feel sad for you more than anything.:(

As I have said you are more then welcome to continue the discussion in other forums, which you will find that I and others here have been following too.

There is also a strict rule on continuing this sort of discussion in these threads as it draws away from the main topic of the thread.

Now again, bring it back on topic, stay within the charter and if you have an issue with the charter you can either bring it up in the charter thread or on the feedback forum if you feel hard done by.

Continue to argue on this subject in this thread and I will ban you for a week.

larryone

Do the title of this thread and the topic it began with not breach the charter? Should the thread not have been moved or closed at some earlier stage. I think the line of discussion this thread went to was kindof inevitable, given where it started. Is it too late to move it now?

Hobbes

When it began it was not about the cartoons at all. It's pretty close to being locked but generally I hate locking threads as it stops someone from putting proper discussion that may be missed from a locking.

toString

The cartoons that were printed in the Danish newspaper over five months ago were political comment that was misinterpreted by oversensitive Muslims.

I don't believe in any religion, I do believe in science and I do believe that the human race has a need to believe in something be it science or religion. My opinion is that religion in its extreme forms is detrimental to society, that's fairly obvious from the news of the last few days. How many conflicts in the world have had religion as their root cause?

larryone

Hobbes wrote:

When it began it was not about the cartoons at all. It's pretty close to being locked but generally I hate locking threads as it stops someone from putting proper discussion that may be missed from a locking.

The charicatures are certainly relevant to the title of this thread, are they not?

Why does such a strong rejection of representational idolatry exist in Islam?

Hobbes

toString wrote:

The cartoons that were printed in the Danish newspaper over five months ago were political comment that was misinterpreted by oversensitive Muslims.

It is not so much the cartoons that is the issue but the fact that after being told they were offensive the muslim community were ignored and the media went and printed more of them across Europe. Prior to that this was a non-event although upsetting the muslims within the country.

I mean if you think they get upset so easy by cartoons why was there no rioting for South parks "Super Best Friends" episode?

desiredbard

Sure sure
However in modern western society one can ridicukle all but do not go near islam or muslims.

You can joke about jews, catholics protestants Budhist, atheist, but not dare to...

Cartoons cannot be posted in a western newspaper without people being threatened etc. Pigsback stressballs have to be removed from offices, Piglet callenders removed, and Prison employees cannot wear a st Georges cross.
Another french newspaper regertfully owned by a narrowminded egyptian fired its head editor for replicating the cartoons,. this in a state where politics and religion are strictly seperated.

Why the #$%% do (i presume; some) moslims have such long toes and why doe some of these presumed moslims not speak out against it?

I think its very understandable that there is less tollerance towards muslims, its caused by behaviour and opinions like this, anmd their will to force their dogmatic views onto others

Hobbes

desiredbard wrote:

You can joke about jews, catholics protestants Budhist, atheist, but not dare to...

Actually you can't joke about Jews in the media, and the Jewish group (forget the name) routinely check to insure they are not ridculed in the same way the Muslim community was.

Catholics? I seem to recall Life of Brian being banned in Ireland at one time. Fr Ted as I recall wasn't picked up by RTE because they thought it would be too offensive.

Protestants? Yea right. You think there were cartoons along the same lines in Irish papers that there wouldn't be riots in Northern Ireland?

Pigsback stressballs have to be removed from offices, Piglet callenders removed,

*sigh* This has been done to death on this forum already. First the people banning them were not Muslims and even the muslims in said jobs said it was overkill and didn't mind if the items where there.

and Prison employees cannot wear a st Georges cross.

Please supply a link for this.

Edwardius

Hobbes wrote:

Catholics? I seem to recall Life of Brian being banned in Ireland at one time. Fr Ted as I recall wasn't picked up by RTE because they thought it would be too offensive.

Yes and we saw the resultant outbursts, what with nuns torching cars and priests setting fire to Dermot Morgan's gaff? Remember the tragic murder of tommy Tiernan for his late-late show performance??

Hobbes

Dead Ed wrote:

Yes and we saw the resultant outbursts, what with nuns torching cars and priests setting fire to Dermot Morgan's gaff? Remember the tragic murder of tommy Tiernan for his late-late show performance??

Well in those instances both where dropped before anything came of it. Likewise with the Last Temptation of Christ. The OP I was replying to was trying to infer that we (Ireland) have not gotten upset about people who may insult the Catholic religon.

desiredbard

When the planes flew into the WTC, the ones responsible claimed it was for the islam
After Mohammed B murdered independent Filmmaker Theo van Gogh (Submission) it was in th name of his religions

These actions seem to ridicul Mohammed more than any cartoon can, (and so does the torching of embassies and threathening of innocent people of whatever nationality) But i see no worldwide protests by Muslims that these imbecilles disgrace Allah or his Prophet

It seems to me that the drawwing on the bomb-headed profet was wrong:
The fuse should have been shorter.

How can muslims claim that the islam is a religion of peace and respect, because its the last thing you show

Suff

Hobbes wrote:

Actually you can't joke about Jews in the media, and the Jewish group (forget the name) routinely check to insure they are not ridculed in the same way the Muslim community was.

Agree to that.

Suff

Hobbes wrote:

Catholics? I seem to recall Life of Brian being banned in Ireland at one time. Fr Ted as I recall wasn't picked up by RTE because they thought it would be too offensive.

Life of Brian was different IMO, the movie was based on making fun of Brian { being mistaken for Christ} and not of Christ
I Love Father Ted , however it made fun of Irish Priests and not of Christ.
I was sad when DM died

again I'll repeat myself, as a Muslim, I was insulted by these cartoons but I was more insulted by the violent reaction some people did in the name of Islam!
this is not the way to understand/solve our problems.

Freddie59

Hobbes wrote:

What censorship exactly? As I said there are multiple threads on boards.ie on the subject, which I might add you are already posting in. Likewise there are multiple links to the cartoon outside this forum, as the cartoon is offensive I do not see why it should be posted within this forum.

This forum is for the discussion of the Islamic religon, not for people of the religon to have to defend themselves for actions of others.

The charter is there to stop this place being flooded with political discussion which should go to another forum, nor is it a place to voice how they "hate muslims" or suicide bomber crap that was expected when the forum was first started.



As I have said you are more then welcome to continue the discussion in other forums, which you will find that I and others here have been following too.

There is also a strict rule on continuing this sort of discussion in these threads as it draws away from the main topic of the thread.

Now again, bring it back on topic, stay within the charter and if you have an issue with the charter you can either bring it up in the charter thread or on the feedback forum if you feel hard done by.

Continue to argue on this subject in this thread and I will ban you for a week.

Look - I've told you already - I don't care. Do you really think that will achieve anything, save have the subject moved. You cannot avoid the core issue which has developed. The outrageous attempt by radical Mulims, hiding behind religion, to attempt to make the Western media bow. It has not, and will not, happen.

As I have already said, all the issues you mention are inexorably linked - this is unavoidable. You have two choices:

1. Allow the discussion to continue (democracy)
2. Censor the discussion.

Your call.

Freddie59

desiredbard wrote:

When the planes flew into the WTC, the ones responsible claimed it was for the islam
After Mohammed B murdered independent Filmmaker Theo van Gogh (Submission) it was in th name of his religions

These actions seem to ridicul Mohammed more than any cartoon can, (and so does the torching of embassies and threathening of innocent people of whatever nationality) But i see no worldwide protests by Muslims that these imbecilles disgrace Allah or his Prophet

It seems to me that the drawwing on the bomb-headed profet was wrong:
The fuse should have been shorter.

How can muslims claim that the islam is a religion of peace and respect, because its the last thing you show

Excellent post. But they'll probably try to ban you as well! Islamic press freedom at it's best!

Hobbes

Freddie59 wrote:

Your call.

Freddie takes a holiday.

Hobbes

desiredbard wrote:

...

I was going to respond to this but I would just be replying to something I have already told to be discussed in another forum.

Look I have already talked to you in PM about this. Consider yourself warned.

Hagar

Suff wrote:

I Love Father Ted , however it made fun of Irish Priests and not of Christ.

The cartoons made fun of a man, not Allah.

larryone

Something that just came to mind when someone mentioned making fun of Christ. Jesus was a prophet of Islam. Are muslims not offended by insult to Jesus? Do muslims reject icons or depictions of Jesus as being offensive representational idolotry? What about Abraham, or any other prophets? Do we hear nothing from Islam about poking fun at them, just because they werent the last prophet?

Suff

larryone wrote:

Something that just came to mind when someone mentioned making fun of Christ. Jesus was a prophet of Islam. Are muslims not offended by insult to Jesus?

Yes we do

Do muslims reject icons or depictions of Jesus as being offensive representational idolotry?

Yes we do! when it comes to the Crucifix (we dont believe in it) and the image of Christ being displayed on statues.

What about Abraham, or any other prophets? Do we hear nothing from Islam about poking fun at them, just because they werent the last prophet?

Islam teaches to respect, love, admin all Prohpets, they are the Prophets of Islam. when we call their name we use the term... Peace be upon him/them

In Prayer we ask GOD to Prise/Bless both houses of Abraham (Isac, Ishmael) and the house of Muhammad.

Muslims do protest to any insult of any prophet but its down to the media to project that protest.
when "The Passion of Christ" was released a number of Muslims were offended at the level of torture/insults displayed in the movie against the image of Christ. it was banned in a number of countires with Islamic majority.

lazydaisy

Hobbes wrote:

Actually you can't joke about Jews in the media, and the Jewish group (forget the name) routinely check to insure they are not ridculed in the same way the Muslim community was.

Oh you mean like these ones?

http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/cartoon_arab_press_080702.asp

And BTW there are still holocaust survivors around and the Jews had 6 million of their people put into pogroms and gassed. I dont believe the Muslim community was "ridiculed" in such a way.

Hobbes

lazydaisy wrote:

Oh you mean like these ones?

Find some posted in Western Magazines (which is what I am referring to). You should be able to find numerous similar cartoons in the west though in relation to Islam, just not to Mohammad.

desiredbard

Hobbes wrote:

I was going to respond to this but I would just be replying to something I have already told to be discussed in another forum.

Look I have already talked to you in PM about this. Consider yourself warned.

Hobbes.... why do you not copy and paste your answer to that then. Because I think its very relevant. If somebody feels offended by my post, they belong in the category of islam that is very very scary. If people feel embarassed by it, thats what I ment to do. I would not know of a catholic who is proud of the spanish inquisition.

Is it that hard for Muslims to think for themselves, fine the Qu'ran is their holy book, and it contains the guidlines for their life, alcohol mariage etc, however, where christianity (appart from some small sects) has seem to have evolved and go a little with his time. The islam stays with what seems fundamental old testamonial value's.

As a katholic I can see, understand and respekt the differences with protestants and atheist.,
As a christian, I can understand why an atheist has something against organised religion,
And all this is not answered by hate/agression, appart from some iejits with initials I.P. There are even protestants who speak out against his narrowminded world. Hell there are katholics that do not agree with the pope

WHY, why, do moslims not speak out plainly and loudly as group and as individuals against atrocities committed in the NAME of islam. Or is it actually THE ISLAM after all?

Why do muslims not understand, that a cartoon is aimed at the iejits committing these crimes. Not as a personal attack on the religion. Satiric Cartoons are made to make people (as individuals) think.

Protestants do not apreciate any depicturing of the Lord or Saints either, however you don't see them going around torching churches embassies boycotting people and make random assaults....not anymore

Thre is a lot of people over-reacting on an image in a newspaper from which they do not even speak the languages. Why do they look at it?
If you dont want to see/read/hear something: Dont look turn of the TV close the book and turn of the radio, or walk away.
But somehow it SEEMS that muslims cannot do that.

Even here on a western website which is probably hosted on a server in the states. Muslims are trying to shut up people with honoust questions. And its impossible to post an image of what exactly this fuzz is all about. Does it not make sense to make an opinion on what you are making all the fuzz about. I would have expected the muslims on this forum to be a bit more oppenminded where it comes to western culture of freedom of speach.

Even the LINKS to the images which I created after my PI to you that I mistakenly posted the pictures, has been removed. A URL would have given someone the chance to look at what all the fuzz is about, or the choice not to when they have long toes/short fuses

If you call that generalising fine, I generalis everybody always untill proven different. (Everybody is an arsehole till I've seen the opposite)

Now this line might be hard but I hope you get my drift. I hate the US, the so called "freedom" where they stand for, GW Bush is the same kind off terrorist as osama bin laden. And the Americans that re-elected him are no more than trailor trash in my eyes (Regretfully that is 50+% which proves I am right with my theory that all people are assholes)

But I would nearly back the guy after what I have seen now as a reaction to a cartoon. Cause it seems now that he is right in what he sais (and I hate that) and is trying to do

Maybe I am mistaken in my perception of this forum.
I hoped that people here would be willing to discuss their faith and clear up misunderstandings, however, once one becomes to critical or starts asking to difficult questions ... you get sencored or banned?

Aleiqu'm el Salaam

desiredbard

Hobbes wrote:

Find some posted in Western Magazines (which is what I am referring to). You should be able to find numerous similar cartoons in the west though in relation to Islam, just not to Mohammad.

Regretfully I cannot find the link it seems to have been pulled down.
I do not like to post hearsay but:

The Arabic European Liga, run by Abou JahJah, which used to be fairly big in europe" retalliated with offencive "Anne Frank" Pictures.
How sick is that, I mean depicting Danish people.....sure, jewish settlers, by all means. GW Bush that should be easy. But to retaliate on an inocent murdered girl is pathetic.

No crimes where commited by Anne Frank, or even by some iejists in her name

I have not seen the pictures so I cannot really talk here, but to post something like that as retaliation is pathetic

rsynnott

desiredbard wrote:

Even here on a western website which is probably hosted on a server in the states.

Nope. It's LOCAL.