.308 Refusal

cantona

Have been refused cert for 308 rifle, reason being military calibre.Can anyone point me to any judgements or like that I can use when I meet Super on Friday.Thanks

civdef

The fact that the calibre is "military" on it's own isn't a valid reason to refuse a cert. There is a list of conditions to be met before granting a cert in the Firearms Acts, so the super has to justify the refusal under one of those.

cantona

Do you have the relevent sections of the act to hand so I can download and print them for presentation?

civdef

Section 4 Firearms Act 1925:

4.—Before granting a firearm certificate to any person under this Act the superintendent of the Gárda Síochána or the Minister (as the case may require) shall be satisfied that such person—

( a ) has a good reason for requiring the firearm in respect of which the certificate is applied for, and

( b ) can be permitted to have in his possession, use, and carry a firearm or ammunition without danger to the public safety or to the peace, and

( c ) is not a person declared by this Act to be disentitled to hold a firearm certificate.

Links to the various Firearms Acts:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1925_17.html
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1964_1.html
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1971_13.html
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1990_12.html
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2000_20.html

Sparks

There was a case brought on this calibre last year, but it never had a judgement rendered in it, so there wasn't any precedent set to quote cantona But civdef's post is right on the money. Let us know how it goes?

civdef

The Dept of Justice are granting licences to import .308 ammunitoon and rifles no problem AFAIK. People are getting firearms licences for .308s. Might be worth mentioning this to the super and get him to check around.

cantona

Thanks for the help.Will keep you updated.

chem

mmmmm.....could this be a glimps into whats to come? France for example has banned the use of all "military" cals for public use.

Might be that the dear super recieved a memo from above and has started working on it as law already???

civdef

France hasn't, though they do have different categories of firearm with varying strictness of conditions to licence them.

Italy and I think Spain, to mention two, ban military calibres, but that restriction goes way back.

demonloop

I heard if you applied for 7.62mm then most thicko Guards wouldn't realise it was the same and forget the 'military' aspect. Not sure how much truth in it though.

Clare gunner

civdef wrote:

France hasn't, though they do have different categories of firearm with varying strictness of conditions to licence them.

Italy and I think Spain, to mention two, ban military calibres, but that restriction goes way back.

France as such does not have a ban on mil calibres.It is just more hassle to actually own one than it is worth in the paperwork.Hence the french go either up or down in the calibre. IE 9mm becomes 10mm ,223 becomes 222, 308 becomes 300win mag. Ditto Spain,but they are more stingent in ownership.Italy is the only one with the total civillian ban on mil calibres.
Maybe we might want to consider keeping the French idea over here if they persist in this nonsense.

Sparks

I don't see how you'd be able to define a calibre as "military" though. For instance, the NATO 5.56mm round is not the same as the civilian .223 round - put a round for one rifle in the chamber of another and you're asking for trouble a few inches from your face :eek:
Besides which, pretty much every calibre out there has been used for military applications at one point or another. And those that haven't (say, 10mm for example) have been used in other similar areas (10mm, for example, is the standard issue for the FBI and other police groups in the US).

Barry Aldwell

Sparks wrote:

I don't see how you'd be able to define a calibre as "military" though. For instance, the NATO 5.56mm round is not the same as the civilian .223 round - put a round for one rifle in the chamber of another and you're asking for trouble a few inches from your face :eek:

A bad example - .223 Remmington can be used in a 5.56mm M193 military rifle with no problems. The opposite, however, does not hold true

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.223

Mr_G^_^

military calibre sounds like a "buzz word" excuse for just not wanting to give you your license

12 gauge is a military calibre also is it not ie 00 buckshot so argue that shotguns see combat too maybe?
You could always use the old adage its not the gun its the nut behind the butt!

seriously these people should learn how to do their jobs!

(and yes i have suffered in the past due to garda ignorance regarding guns)

Clare gunner

Mr_G^_^ wrote:

military calibre sounds like a "buzz word" excuse for just not wanting to give you your license

12 gauge is a military calibre also is it not ie 00 buckshot so argue that shotguns see combat too maybe?
You could always use the old adage its not the gun its the nut behind the butt!

seriously these people should learn how to do their jobs!

(and yes i have suffered in the past due to garda ignorance regarding guns)

Think what our lords&masters....err..public servants in the form of gardai are trying to say is;
that it is a military caliber issued to the Irish army. [308,223,9mm] and that we are all going to rise up one day and overthrow the Irish state,and that we could forage off the Irish army for ammo.So youse is not gettin dem type calibres .Or some other such paranoid 1970 type thinking.Simply put as well,cant and wont be arsed to change in their set ways,and too Hell with the law and their direct superiors say regarding this issue.Basically a law unto themselves regarding firearms,and who will challange them?:mad:

There has always been big debate wether the 12 ga and 22lr are military calibres as well.As the USA is still ASFIK the only army that issues shotguns as accepted arms and that the 22lr has been issued as a covert weapon to various occupied countries during and post ww2 by various allied countries.Are they military calibres as well?

Sparks

Clare gunner wrote:

Think what our lords&masters....err..public servants in the form of gardai are trying to say is;
that it is a military caliber issued to the Irish army. [308,223,9mm] and that we are all going to rise up one day and overthrow the Irish state,and that we could forage off the Irish army for ammo.So youse is not gettin dem type calibres .Or some other such paranoid 1970 type thinking.

Not so sure it was the average joe soap they were worried about, so much as the IRA joe soaps CG. Yes, they didn't bother with licences - but the idea that they could have legally sourced ammo down here for illegal abuse up there - well, I may not agree with their method or think that they've done the feasibility study right, but I can at least see their point.

Simply put as well,cant and wont be arsed to change in their set ways,and too Hell with the law and their direct superiors say regarding this issue.Basically a law unto themselves regarding firearms,and who will challange them?:mad:

Well, the new situation will be that you won't have any legal grounds on which to challange them, so I'd get used to it!

There has always been big debate wether the 12 ga and 22lr are military calibres as well.As the USA is still ASFIK the only army that issues shotguns as accepted arms and that the 22lr has been issued as a covert weapon to various occupied countries during and post ww2 by various allied countries.Are they military calibres as well?

Depends on how you define "military calibre" I guess. I'd love to see a written definition of that one!

Mr_G^_^

you probably wouldn't be granted a license to view it :rolleyes:

FLAG

Cantona

1) Have you made an appointment to see the Superintendent?
2) What is your reason for requiring a .308 target/deer stalking
3) Is it a new application or do you already have a highpower rifle of any calibre?

Actions
a) Need to decide how badly you want the rifle
b) Reason if the Super continues to maintain his current position then you need to take Judicial Review Proceedings, you cannot and will not loose, they will concede before it goes to court
c) If you decide to take Judicial Review Proceedings you need the refusal in writing stating the reasons.
d) If you do not intend to take it that far forget it and wait till the new firearms amendments are brought into law: about June 2006.
e) Reason: Statutory requirement to make a decision to issue a firearms cert within 3 months, refusal can be appealed to the district court!

Need to make hard choices: would a 6.5x55 do you, if so you are more likely to get it than the .308

Regards
Declan Keogh
FLAG

cantona

1)Made appt to see Super last Friday for appointment tomorrow.Was told to expect call to confirm and set time.Nothing doing.Rang today got same answer but still have no confirmation.

2)Reason given in application Target Shooting

3)Already have .40 Pistol.

4)Have letter of refusal from local Sgt citing military calibre and advising to apply for smaller calibre.On phone today was told by District Sgt that recommendation for .22 or .22-50 came from NAMED Sgt in Firearm section

civdef

FLAG, in the judicial reviews so far that were conceded, how was the issue of costs resoved?

Clare gunner

QUOTE] but the idea that they could have legally sourced ammo down here for illegal abuse up there - well, I may not agree with their method or think that they've done the feasibility study right, but I can at least see their point. [/QUOTE]
kind of missed the fact that 9mm,308 and latterly 223 and 7.62X39 is the most common calibres on the planet,and an actual trade good on the international arms market even back then.Plus it is easier to shift ammo than the guns.

Well, the new situation will be that you won't have any legal grounds on which to challange them, so I'd get used to it!

EH?I thought that was the whole point of taking them to the district court,so as that they might explain themselves as to why they wont issue and to be told by the court to issue said plantiff with his liscense.

FLAG

CIVDEF

All cases conceded with costs paid for by you and I, "The State"

Declan

Of the 30 cases taken to date not one has failed while some are ongoing these are most likley to be conceded with costs also.

Cantona: A letter from the Sgt is not worth the paper it is written on, he has no authority on the matter, I would expect that you are being blocked by the Sgt, well worth suggesting that you will take it to the courts!

demonloop

What Sparks said about every calibre being 'military' is dead right. They have used everything at some stage. And if there is an issue with that why is the state issuing certificates for 9mm / .45 / .40 / .38 pistols? Do the military not use them?

And also the military usually adopt the cheapest, most effective rounds for mass produced service weapons e.g. 7.62mm (.308), 5.56mm and 9mm.

Is it not fair to assume these round would be effective and cheap for the civilian shooting community as well. I think the civilian shooting community should be commended on their choice for choosing 'military' calibres and not banned from them.

jaycee

Those who follow the "Military calibre " line of logic ..
Might like to have a look here ...

http://p077.ezboard.com/fparallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforumsfrm23

The .22LR (Normal .22) ..is a military round too.

Also used for a lot of what used to be called "wet Work.." :eek:

woody

.308" is not a military calibre it is not used in this army or the british.

We use 7.62MM which may be similar to the above calibre but is not again from experience the Police generalise and have very little knowledge.

I would try again and is necessary seek legal action if need be.

Next thing they will say .177" is a military calibre and then were all F*cked

Clare gunner

[

308" is not a military calibre it is not used in this army or the british.

We use 7.62MM which may be similar to the above calibre but is not again from experience the Police generalise and have very little knowledge

.

So have the FCA or reserve gone from the FN FAL NATO or 308?Ironically they ended up with the better weapon.FN FAL,proably [next to the HK G3 of course] or the Garand one of the best rifles ever built .

BTW the 308 is the same as 7.62.It was called .308 because the US who was supplying NATO in the 50s named it that,as it is an imperial measurement the Europeans standardised it to 7.62 NATO or some historical snippet like that.

Barry Aldwell

Clare gunner wrote:

[.

So have the FCA or reserve gone from the FN FAL NATO or 308?Ironically they ended up with the better weapon.FN FAL,proably [next to the HK G3 of course] or the Garand one of the best rifles ever built .

BTW the 308 is the same as 7.62.It was called .308 because the US who was supplying NATO in the 50s named it that,as it is an imperial measurement the Europeans standardised it to 7.62 NATO or some historical snippet like that.

The RDF are now equipped with the Steyr AUG as standard. GPMGs (7.62mm NATO machine gun) are being introduced to all units, to replace the Bren LMG.

The reason the round is referred to as 7.62mm NATO is because there are a lot of other rounds of .308/7.62mm calibre, and referring to the round by it's official name eliminates any possible confusion. While it is technically of calibre .308, and is sold on the civilian market as .308 Winchester, referring to it as 7.62mm NATO would be regarded as best practise, to avoid confusion.

jeffshc1

Military caliber sounds like the assault weapon slang in the US.
My loose translation, if the people in charge are afraid of it no one should have it (but them).
As far as caliber goes what size doesn't apply to military somewhere down the line.

woody

Well very true Jeff, to be honest with the Police here it is lack of education and training, what were really trying to get at is that to me as ex-army I would class .308" Winchester as a sporting or hunting round aka 7.62MM which to them sounds like a more aggresive calibre etc etc it is about wording and no more.

Also if challenged in court it would most likely turn out to be in the favour of the shooter but a precedent has to be set.

Okay a legitmate reason to have it... eg. Deer Hunting, Target shooting, if the OP is a member of a club or holds a deer hunting license this may strengthen his case...eventhough currently in Ireland the two calibres for the above hunting would Primarily be .243" and .270" but .308" IMHO would give a cleaner kill and be more accurate and humane overall

Clare gunner

ASFIK on military using all types of calibres.No army ever issued to their troops a 375 H&H or 416 rigby.Think the biggest ever issued was 30/40 Krag.
Not forgetting another ligit use is practical rifle,but I suppose that is target shooting as well.Well, like I said before if they want to be so damn pickey on military calibres we should go like the French,up or down from the military calibre. 10mm instead of 9mm 300Win mag instead of 308. 222 instead of 223
All work pretty well in the guns that were orginally intended for military cals.

cantona

After making contact with station 38 times(documented) since 09/05,including phone calls, letters, registered letters and planting myself in station 3 times for total of 4+ hours.........Result

REFUSED.

Reasons:as of 04/06 appreciate concern over delay but
only got application on 28/09/05

Checked with ballistics section and
1)Unsuitable military calibre
2)Sniper and machine gun calibre
3)undesirable crossover mil and civ
4)other cal just as good

Look for something smaller(will consider)


In refusing Application, my reasons


a)Not in public interest

b)Not in public interest(Ballistics Section)

c)Consider smaller calibre

d)Just because available, should not be for public

e)Not satisified to your reasons


All this after submitting documentation the size of a phone book relating how .308/7.62 is the internationally recognised calibre for Long range target shooting


FOOTNOTE: Letter in name of Super but UNSIGNED and parting comment reads

"If this does not meet your requirements,I will attend Court on the date of your choosing subject to you appealing this decision"



Comments please.